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Jacob
July 11th, 2015, 11:48 PM
Who was 1 Peter written to?

1 Peter 2:12 NASB - 12 Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.

Dan Emanuel
July 12th, 2015, 12:29 AM
Who was 1 Peter written to?

1 Peter 2:12 NASB - 12 Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.This is a personal letter from the genuineoriginal supreme pastor of the Church, that our Lord Jesus Christ Himself built; upon same. You get to read Peters own letter!

I'm sure that Peter wouldn't mind, if you imagine that he was writing this just to you. :) But I think that literally it can be found in the letter, to whom he was writing. And I think that even more importantly Peter was writing to his literal successor's the pope's.


Daniel

Jacob
July 12th, 2015, 12:46 AM
1 Peter 1:1-2 NASB - 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

1 Peter 2:11-12 NASB - 11 Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul. 12 Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.


This is a personal letter from the genuineoriginal supreme pastor of the Church, that our Lord Jesus Christ Himself built; upon same. You get to read Peters own letter!

I'm sure that Peter wouldn't mind, if you imagine that he was writing this just to you. :) But I think that literally it can be found in the letter, to whom he was writing. And I think that even more importantly Peter was writing to his literal successor's the pope's.


DanielNot for the Pope, though he can no doubt read it as anyone else can. I personally am not a follower of Catholicism. I am a Christian.

Dan Emanuel
July 12th, 2015, 01:06 AM
Not for the Pope, though he can no doubt read it as anyone else can.Then obviously 1 Peter is for the pope's, since if it were not for the pope's, why would they have a copy of the letter at all?

I personally am not a follower of Catholicism.What is "a follower of Catholicism?" Do you mean your not Catholic? Are you Catholic, but you are not a follower of Catholicism?

I am a Christian.Does this mean that you are not a Catholic? Some people distinguish between being Catholic and being Christian as if they are opposite thing's.


Daniel

This Charming Manc
July 12th, 2015, 01:40 AM
I can see absolutley no evidence in the text for that position.


This is a personal letter from the genuineoriginal supreme pastor of the Church, that our Lord Jesus Christ Himself built; upon same. You get to read Peters own letter!

I'm sure that Peter wouldn't mind, if you imagine that he was writing this just to you. :) But I think that literally it can be found in the letter, to whom he was writing. And I think that even more importantly Peter was writing to his literal successor's the pope's.


Daniel

Bradley D
July 12th, 2015, 01:54 AM
Peter was writing to Christians dispersed throughout the Roman Empire.

Dan Emanuel
July 12th, 2015, 02:09 AM
I can see absolutley no evidence in the text for that position.How 'bout the text of history book's. Any evidence they're?


Daniel

This Charming Manc
July 12th, 2015, 02:43 AM
When dealing with the bible I want to find out the original writers intent and not the position of a third party opinion.

If Peters addresses it to

"To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:"

and third party says its written to future 'popes', a term that never in mentioned in scripture let alone in this letter.

I go with Peters intent not a third party commentary (protestant or catholic.)


How 'bout the text of history book's. Any evidence they're?

Daniel

Dan Emanuel
July 12th, 2015, 03:07 AM
"To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:"Thats what I meant by:

But I think that literally it can be found in the letter, to whom he was writing.Thanks for providing the direct quotation?

I'm not Catholic, I just believe in Peter.

Because Jesus said Peter was important, that Peter was going to be important.

Some ancient non-Catholic church's claim to be see's of Peter beside's Rome, did you know that? The Catholic Church is not the only church that claim's to literally be built upon Peter, isn't that interesting?

I find it interesting that not every church make's such a claim. Can't everybody read Matthew 16:18 KJV, do you think?


Daniel

This Charming Manc
July 12th, 2015, 03:44 AM
Thats what I meant by:
Thanks for providing the direct quotation?

The quote says nothing about peter writing to his direct successors, he is writing to first century Christians , most probably of Jewish descent, who are 'in exile' so possibly original members of the Jerusalem church.

The words choosen, elect et all refer to all Christians not a specific group or line of indidivuals


I'm not Catholic, I just believe in Peter.

I believe in Jesus the same as Peter did, Peter never calls you to believe in him once.

A Christian denies himself and points to Christ, its a central theme of all new testament writers.


Because Jesus said Peter was important, that Peter was going to be important.

Thats one way of interpreting matthew 16, there are others.


Some ancient non-Catholic church's claim to be see's of Peter beside's Rome, did you know that? The Catholic Church is not the only church that claim's to literally be built upon Peter, isn't that interesting?

The position appeared in 250 AD, well before the formation of the catholic church so it doesn't surprise me its more widespread.


I find it interesting that not every church make's such a claim. Can't everybody read Matthew 16:18 KJV, do you think?

Each scripture is understood in the context of wider scriptural themes, if look at Peter letting James take the lead in the Jerusalem church through acts, the large influence Paul has on the church and the direct challenges he makes to Peter.

Then look at the letters which talk about the church being built on Christ and the foundations of the apostles and prophets, I cant see the whole of a scripture pointing to one man.

The concepts of pope, apostolic succession, and the primacy of Rome are all significantly outside the canon of scripture.

Jacob
July 12th, 2015, 09:19 AM
Then obviously 1 Peter is for the pope's, since if it were not for the pope's, why would they have a copy of the letter at all?
What is "a follower of Catholicism?" Do you mean your not Catholic? Are you Catholic, but you are not a follower of Catholicism?
Does this mean that you are not a Catholic? Some people distinguish between being Catholic and being Christian as if they are opposite thing's.


DanielThe person in this world who is called "the Pope" is human like everyone else, so I see no problem with him reading 1 Peter. My point was that you wanted to bring the Pope in as someone 1 Peter was written to or for. I don't acknowledge anyone as Pope or in other words I don't acknowledge the office, position, title, etc... of Pope. Not only that, I am not Catholic.

Did you see in 1 Peter 1 who the letter is addressed to? Who is 1 Peter addressed to?

I am Christian. So I can either say I am a follower of Jesus Christ or a follower of Christianity (I have no problem saying either, so both are okay). I am not in any way a follower of the Pope or of Catholicism.

Jacob
July 12th, 2015, 09:24 AM
Peter was writing to Christians dispersed throughout the Roman Empire.If so, would you say Christians are not Gentiles? We are to keep our behavior excellent among the Gentiles. Or, those Peter was writing to are to keep their behavior excellent among the Gentiles.

The letter is addressed. See 1 Peter 1:1-2 NASB. See also 1 Peter 2:11-12 NASB. Is this to Christians in Gentile lands? Why are those Peter was writing to addressed as aliens (or rather, those who reside as aliens)?

steko
July 12th, 2015, 09:39 AM
1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,


Knowing the meaning of the terms, the first verse becomes self-explanatory. Peter is writing to believing Jews who are dispersed in other countries.


"Strangers:

παρεπίδημος
parepídēmos A stranger, sojourner; not simply one who is passing through, but a foreigner who has settled down, however briefly, next to or among the native people (Heb_11:13; 1Pe_1:1; 1Pe_2:11; Sept.: Gen_23:4; Psa_39:12).


Scattered:

διασπορά
diasporá to scatter abroad. A scattering or dispersion, spoken of the state of dispersion in which many of the Jews lived after the captivity, in Chaldea, Persia, and chiefly in Egypt, Syria and Asia Minor (Sept.: Jer_34:17). In the NT, it refers to the dispersion of the Jews (Jas_1:1; 1Pe_1:1). In Joh_7:35 "the dispersed among the Gentiles" means the Jews dwelling either among the Gentiles generally, or among nations that used the Greek language, e.g., in Egypt and Asia Minor, the Hellenists (Sept.: Psa_147:2)."- Spiros Zodhiates- Complete Word Study Dictionary

WonderfulLordJesus
July 12th, 2015, 09:48 AM
Peter was writing to Christians dispersed throughout the Roman Empire.

Right, scattered Christians about the Roman empire. It's believed to have been written after Nero came to power, as it has a practical instructions on Christian conduct under persecution. I recall once reading that scripture was copied quite rapidly and distributed in ancient times, contrary to what people think.

1 Peter 1

6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ...
14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

Much in chapters 3 and 4 involving conduct, in various settings, including persecutions, chapter 5 with admonitions to be self-controlled and stand fast in the faith. It's generally written to a persecuted church at large.

Tambora
July 12th, 2015, 04:27 PM
1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,


Knowing the meaning of the terms, the first verse becomes self-explanatory. Peter is writing to believing Jews who are dispersed in other countries.


"Strangers:

παρεπίδημος
parepídēmos A stranger, sojourner; not simply one who is passing through, but a foreigner who has settled down, however briefly, next to or among the native people (Heb_11:13; 1Pe_1:1; 1Pe_2:11; Sept.: Gen_23:4; Psa_39:12).


Scattered:

διασπορά
diasporá to scatter abroad. A scattering or dispersion, spoken of the state of dispersion in which many of the Jews lived after the captivity, in Chaldea, Persia, and chiefly in Egypt, Syria and Asia Minor (Sept.: Jer_34:17). In the NT, it refers to the dispersion of the Jews (Jas_1:1; 1Pe_1:1). In Joh_7:35 "the dispersed among the Gentiles" means the Jews dwelling either among the Gentiles generally, or among nations that used the Greek language, e.g., in Egypt and Asia Minor, the Hellenists (Sept.: Psa_147:2)."- Spiros Zodhiates- Complete Word Study DictionaryYeppers.

oatmeal
July 12th, 2015, 04:39 PM
Who was 1 Peter written to?

1 Peter 2:12 NASB - 12 Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.

I Peter 1:1-3 tells us who

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Those who were chosen by God Ephesians 1:4 according to the foreknowledge of God

Those who are born again of God's spirit.

Those who have done Romans 10:9-10

Jacob
July 12th, 2015, 04:58 PM
I Peter 1:1-3 tells us who

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Those who were chosen by God Ephesians 1:4 according to the foreknowledge of God

Those who are born again of God's spirit.

Those who have done Romans 10:9-10Was it that these were Gentiles and needed to have their behavior excellent among the Gentiles? Or were these not Gentiles who but needed to have their behavior excellent among the Gentiles?

Are those who are born again Gentiles? Are those who are born again not Gentiles? Who is being referred to here?

1 Peter 1:3, 23 NASB - 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, ... 23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

1 Peter 1:1-2 NASB - 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

Aaron the Tall
July 12th, 2015, 05:40 PM
If so, would you say Christians are not Gentiles? We are to keep our behavior excellent among the Gentiles. Or, those Peter was writing to are to keep their behavior excellent among the Gentiles.

The letter is addressed. See 1 Peter 1:1-2 NASB. See also 1 Peter 2:11-12 NASB. Is this to Christians in Gentile lands? Why are those Peter was writing to addressed as aliens (or rather, those who reside as aliens)?

Because the Christian's citizenship is in heaven. Phil 3:20.

Jacob
July 12th, 2015, 05:41 PM
Because the Christian's citizenship is in heaven. Phil 3:20.Were these people living in a foreign land?

Aaron the Tall
July 12th, 2015, 06:21 PM
Were these people living in a foreign land?

All Christians, be they of Jewish or Gentile background are living in a "foreign land" if their true citizenship is in heaven.

When the term is used in Hebrews 11:13, it says the people of faith were aliens and strangers on earth. They weren't strangers merely because they had moved from one place on earth to another. They were strangers on earth, simply because they were on earth, and not in heaven.

The writer makes this plain in vs. 16.

"Instead, they were longing for a better country - a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them."

Jacob
July 12th, 2015, 06:23 PM
All Christians, be they of Jewish or Gentile background are living in a "foreign land" if their true citizenship is in heaven.

When the term is used in Hebrews 11:13, it says the people of faith were aliens and strangers on earth. They weren't strangers merely because they had moved from one place on earth to another. They were strangers on earth, simply because they were on earth, and not in heaven.

The writer makes this plain in vs. 16.

"Instead, they were longing for a better country - a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them."Acts 7:6 NASB - 6 "But God spoke to this effect, that his DESCENDANTS WOULD BE ALIENS IN A FOREIGN LAND, AND THAT THEY WOULD BE ENSLAVED AND MISTREATED FOR FOUR HUNDRED YEARS.

Ephesians 2:19 NASB - 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household,

1 Peter 1:1 NASB - 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen

1 Peter 2:11 NASB - 11 Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul.

Bright Raven
July 12th, 2015, 06:38 PM
Written from Babylon to believers.

Jacob
July 12th, 2015, 06:43 PM
Written from Babylon to believers.I am not sure that is a fact.

Aaron the Tall
July 12th, 2015, 06:59 PM
Acts 7:6 NASB - 6 "But God spoke to this effect, that his DESCENDANTS WOULD BE ALIENS IN A FOREIGN LAND, AND THAT THEY WOULD BE ENSLAVED AND MISTREATED FOR FOUR HUNDRED YEARS.

Ephesians 2:19 NASB - 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household,

1 Peter 1:1 NASB - 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen

1 Peter 2:11 NASB - 11 Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul.

A bit of commentary would be nice so I know what you trying to emphasize.

Acts 7:6 - yes there is a literal meaning of "aliens and strangers" - and the Israelites fit that description while they were living in Egypt.

There is also a spiritual description of "aliens and strangers".

Hebrews 11:8-10 said Abraham was living in the promised land, but was still like a stranger in a foreign country because "he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God."

Eph 2:19 - shows again the spiritual meaning of "aliens and strangers". The Gentile church to whom Paul was writing were not literal physical aliens and strangers. They likely lived in their country of origin. However, in relationship to the promised City of God - Gentile followers were not natural heirs. They were borrowing the promises - but in Christ they have become natural heirs.

I Peter 2:11 - makes more sense in the light of them being spiritual "aliens and strangers" because Peter says that as such they should abstain from sinful desires. It is because they don't belong to this earth that they should not indulge in its pleasures. It is not because they aren't natural citizens of a certain specific country that they should not indulge in its pleasures.

Jacob
July 12th, 2015, 07:06 PM
A bit of commentary would be nice so I know what you trying to emphasize.

Acts 7:6 - yes there is a literal meaning of "aliens and strangers" - and the Israelites fit that description while they were living in Egypt.

There is also a spiritual description of "aliens and strangers".

Hebrews 11:8-10 said Abraham was living in the promised land, but was still like a stranger in a foreign country because "he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God."

Eph 2:19 - shows again the spiritual meaning of "aliens and strangers". The Gentile church to whom Paul was writing were not literal physical aliens and strangers. They likely lived in their country of origin. However, in relationship to the promised City of God - Gentile followers were not natural heirs. They were borrowing the promises - but in Christ they have become natural heirs.
The verse talks about who they were formerly vs. who they are now. I don't know that they were considered Gentiles.

I Peter 2:11 - makes more sense in the light of them being spiritual "aliens and strangers" because Peter says that as such they should abstain from sinful desires. It is because they don't belong to this earth that they should not indulge in its pleasures. It is not because they aren't natural citizens of a certain specific country that they should not indulge in its pleasures.
I don't know that Peter was writing to Gentiles. He was writing to believers.

Interplanner
July 12th, 2015, 07:18 PM
Untell:
your last line is incoherent. Believers are from all ethnos.

Jacob
July 12th, 2015, 07:19 PM
Untell:
your last line is incoherent. Believers are from all ethnos.But is a believer in the church considered or not considered a Jew or a Gentile?

Interplanner
July 12th, 2015, 07:28 PM
Sorry I can't answer compound double negative questions. You have to drop one negative or one answer.

tetelestai
July 12th, 2015, 07:31 PM
Peter is writing to believing Jews who are dispersed in other countries.

Impossible!

Peter makes it very clear who he was writing to:

(1 Peter 2:10) Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

There was only one group of people who were told they were not a people and who were told God would have no mercy on them.


Those people were the Israelites from the 10 tribes of the Northern Nation.

Those Israelites were NOT Jews.

Jacob
July 12th, 2015, 07:33 PM
Sorry I can't answer compound double negative questions. You have to drop one negative or one answer.Galatians 3:28 NASB - 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

1 Corinthians 10:32 NASB - 32 Give no offense either to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God;

1 Peter 2:11-12 NASB - 11 Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul. 12 Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.

The point is that Peter may not have been writing to Gentiles.

oatmeal
July 12th, 2015, 07:36 PM
Was it that these were Gentiles and needed to have their behavior excellent among the Gentiles? Or were these not Gentiles who but needed to have their behavior excellent among the Gentiles?

Are those who are born again Gentiles? Are those who are born again not Gentiles? Who is being referred to here?

1 Peter 1:3, 23 NASB - 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, ... 23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

1 Peter 1:1-2 NASB - 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

When we use the words Judean, Gentile and the church of God, we need to realize that God uses these words perfectly accurately in light of what God wisely chooses to convey.

In God's reckoning or wisdom, these three are distinct separate groups.

The entire human race fits into one of these three groups as we see from I Corinthians 10:32 KJV

Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

None, as used here is all inclusive.

Judeans are not Gentiles are not the church of God.

Those in the church of God were formerly either Judean or Gentile. When they believed on the name of the lord Jesus Christ, they became part of the church of God.

Jacob
July 12th, 2015, 07:44 PM
When we use the words Judean, Gentile and the church of God, we need to realize that God uses these words perfectly accurately in light of what God wisely chooses to convey.

In God's reckoning or wisdom, these three are distinct separate groups.

The entire human race fits into one of these three groups as we see from I Corinthians 10:32 KJV

Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

None, as used here is all inclusive.

Judeans are not Gentiles are not the church of God.

Those in the church of God were formerly either Judean or Gentile. When they believed on the name of the lord Jesus Christ, they became part of the church of God.But the reasoning comes from Paul, therefore:

1 Peter 2:12 NASB - 12 Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.

However, when I speak of a believer, I am thinking of born again which is consistent with Peter (it is referred to in Peter), but I believe I am influenced by other scriptures to then be able to say that those who are born again are believers.

I have also used the phrase before "born again believers". But in the context of Peter I simply know that those who are born again are believers and yet all I can tell is that who the aliens and strangers are deals with the question of if Peter's audience is not Gentile.

tetelestai
July 12th, 2015, 07:55 PM
The point is that Peter may not have been writing to Gentiles.

Peter wasn't writing to Jews.

Anyone who wasn't a Jew was a Gentile.

Jacob
July 12th, 2015, 07:57 PM
Peter wasn't writing to Jews.

Anyone who wasn't a Jew was a Gentile.1 Peter 1:1-2 NASB - 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

1 Peter 2:11-12 NASB - 11 Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul. 12 Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.

tetelestai
July 12th, 2015, 08:11 PM
1 Peter 1:1-2 NASB - 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

1 Peter 2:11-12 NASB - 11 Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul. 12 Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.

They weren't Jews

God only told the Israelites from the 10 tribes that He would not have mercy on them:

(Hosea 1:6) ...I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel;..

The Jews were told that God would have mercy on them:

(Hosea 1:7) But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah...

Only the Israelites from the 10 tribes were told they were "not a people":

(Hosea 1:9) Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.

God divorced these Israelites from the 10 tribes. That never happened to the Jews.

God also promised that one day in the future, He would tell the Israelites: "you are my people"

(Hosea 2:23) I will plant her for myself in the land; I will show my love to the one I called 'Not my loved one.' I will say to those called 'Not my people,' 'You are my people'; and they will say, 'You are my God.'"

Now let's look at what Peter said about 800 years later after Hosea:

(1 Peter 2:10) Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

The Jews were never told they were "not a people", and the Jews were never told they wouldn't have mercy.

It's impossible that Peter was addressing Jews after reading the prophecies in Hosea, and comparing them to 1 Peter 2:10

Aaron the Tall
July 12th, 2015, 08:11 PM
But the reasoning comes from Paul, therefore:

1 Peter 2:12 NASB - 12 Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.

However, when I speak of a believer, I am thinking of born again which is consistent with Peter (it is referred to in Peter), but I believe I am influenced by other scriptures to then be able to say that those who are born again are believers.

I have also used the phrase before "born again believers". But in the context of Peter I simply know that those who are born again are believers and yet all I can tell is that who the aliens and strangers are deals with the question of if Peter's audience is not Gentile.

As the Ephesians 2 passage shows, the term "aliens and strangers" is not exclusive to Jews. It can be used in a spiritual sense, as it was applied to the Gentiles by Paul.

Jacob
July 12th, 2015, 08:28 PM
They weren't Jews

God only told the Israelites from the 10 tribes that He would not have mercy on them:

(Hosea 1:6) ...I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel;..

The Jews were told that God would have mercy on them:

(Hosea 1:7) But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah...

Only the Israelites from the 10 tribes were told they were "not a people":

(Hosea 1:9) Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.

God divorced these Israelites from the 10 tribes. That never happened to the Jews.

God also promised that one day in the future, He would tell the Israelites: "you are my people"

(Hosea 2:23) I will plant her for myself in the land; I will show my love to the one I called 'Not my loved one.' I will say to those called 'Not my people,' 'You are my people'; and they will say, 'You are my God.'"

Now let's look at what Peter said about 800 years later after Hosea:

(1 Peter 2:10) Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

The Jews were never told they were "not a people", and the Jews were never told they wouldn't have mercy.

It's impossible that Peter was addressing Jews after reading the prophecies in Hosea, and comparing them to 1 Peter 2:10I cannot confirm your answer.

Was the question if he was writing to Gentiles?

1 Peter 2:12 NASB - 12 Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.

Jacob
July 12th, 2015, 08:30 PM
As the Ephesians 2 passage shows, the term "aliens and strangers" is not exclusive to Jews. It can be used in a spiritual sense, as it was applied to the Gentiles by Paul.I don't know that Peter is referring to Jews or Gentiles.

1 Peter 2:12 NASB - 12 Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.

tetelestai
July 12th, 2015, 08:43 PM
I cannot confirm your answer.

Was the question if he was writing to Gentiles?

1 Peter 2:12 NASB - 12 Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.

Peter wrote to the Israelites from the 10 tribes.

They weren't Jews.

Interplanner
July 12th, 2015, 08:50 PM
Tet,
doesn't your #35 go against any distinctions made by Paul. In Rom 9B, the four OT quotes, Israel v Judah doesn't matter. I don't get it.

"Jews were never told they were not a people." Really? Mt 21: I will give the vineyard to another nation who will produce its fruit...

tetelestai
July 12th, 2015, 08:57 PM
"Jews were never told they were not a people." Really?

Yes, really.

Nowhere in the OT were the Jews told they were "not a people"

2 Peter 2:10 is a reference to Hosea, not Matthew.

Paul quotes Hosea in Romans, because the Romans weren't Jews, and they weren't pagan Gentiles. The Romans were also descendants of the 10 tribes just like Peter's audience.

Jacob
July 12th, 2015, 09:43 PM
Peter wrote to the Israelites from the 10 tribes.

They weren't Jews.I don't know what you are saying.

Bradley D
July 15th, 2015, 02:43 AM
Once we become Christians there is no longer any distinction between Jew and Gentile.

"For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise" (Galatians 3:27-29).

"Aliens and strangers' or "pilgrims and strangers." to me means we are no longer to be of the world. But get closer to the divine/Kingdom of Heaven, while still here on earth.

"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth" (Hebrews 11:13).

Lazy afternoon
July 15th, 2015, 03:18 AM
I don't know that Peter is referring to Jews or Gentiles.

1 Peter 2:12 NASB - 12 Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.

Very often people think gentiles refers to non Jews, but most often gentiles simply means nations.

LA

Jacob
July 15th, 2015, 08:27 AM
Very often people think gentiles refers to non Jews, but most often gentiles simply means nations.

LANations besides Israel?

Ben Masada
July 15th, 2015, 09:41 AM
Who was 1 Peter written to?

1 Peter 2:12 NASB - 12 Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.

Peter wrote NO letters. According to Luke, Peter was unlearned and ignorant. (Acts 4:13) Illiterate people do not write books. The Letters attributed to Peter were written by Paul. (II Cor. 1:19; I Thess. 1:1; II Thess. 1:1) Paul would never have allowed his scribe Silvanus to get dictation from an apostle of the circumcision.

Ben Masada
July 15th, 2015, 09:44 AM
Once we become Christians there is no longer any distinction between Jew and Gentile.

"For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise" (Galatians 3:27-29).

"Aliens and strangers' or "pilgrims and strangers." to me means we are no longer to be of the world. But get closer to the divine/Kingdom of Heaven, while still here on earth.

"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth" (Hebrews 11:13).

That's what you think for reading too much in the gospel of Paul. This is an item in the Pauline agenda of Replacement Theology.

Jacob
July 15th, 2015, 04:38 PM
Peter wrote NO letters. According to Luke, Peter was unlearned and ignorant. (Acts 4:13) Illiterate people do not write books. The Letters attributed to Peter were written by Paul. (II Cor. 1:19; I Thess. 1:1; II Thess. 1:1) Paul would never have allowed his scribe Silvanus to get dictation from an apostle of the circumcision.
I believe you are incorrect.

Nick M
July 15th, 2015, 05:18 PM
Who was 1 Peter written to?

1 Peter 2:12 NASB - 12 Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.

He gives you a clue. And it couldn't be more obvious.

Jacob
July 15th, 2015, 05:19 PM
He gives you a clue. And it couldn't be more obvious.
What do you mean?

Jacob
July 16th, 2015, 08:03 PM
Who was 1 Peter written to?

1 Peter 2:12 NASB - 12 Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.Is it that "among the Gentiles" or "the Gentiles" means that which is a people or the people or nations outside of the land of Israel? Is it specific to those who were not believers or is it general to those who are outside Israel at the time Peter wrote this? I'm not convinced Peter was writing to Gentiles. I believe the people Peter was writing to were either Jewish believers or believers in Jesus as the Messiah, a part of Jesus' church. I recognize Peter's ministry as different from that of Paul, but I believe they both served the Lord and His church in the capacity with which God equipped and empowered them. From Peter being a disciple and ministering as an apostle, to Paul being converted from an unbeliever who persecuted the church to an apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ who was able to turn to the Gentiles and minister in foreign lands.

Ephesians 4:17 NASB - 17 So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind,

Bradley D
July 16th, 2015, 11:26 PM
That's what you think for reading too much in the gospel of Paul. This is an item in the Pauline agenda of Replacement Theology.

The epistles of Paul are scripture for the Christian. Therefore, cannot be ignored.

turbosixx
July 17th, 2015, 07:40 AM
Who was 1 Peter written to?

1 Peter 2:12 NASB - 12 Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.

Christians who were formally Jews but in Christ there are no Jews or Gentiles.

1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

He uses the term Gentile to indicate someone who is not a child of God. Under the old law you had God's people (Jews) and those who were not (Gentiles). So today we have God's people (Christians) and those who are not (everyone else).

turbosixx
July 17th, 2015, 07:49 AM
The epistles of Paul are scripture for the Christian. Therefore, cannot be ignored.

I agree, Peter viewed his writings as scripture.

2 PT. 3:15 .... just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Jacob
July 17th, 2015, 09:42 AM
Christians who were formally Jews but in Christ there are no Jews or Gentiles.

1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

He uses the term Gentile to indicate someone who is not a child of God. Under the old law you had God's people (Jews) and those who were not (Gentiles). So today we have God's people (Christians) and those who are not (everyone else).Here are some verses in the Bible (Christian New Testament) that refer to "Jew" or "Jews". There is nothing wrong with being a Jew. (All of these references are found after the book of Acts.)

Romans 1:16 NASB - 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Romans 2:9-10, 17, 28-29 NASB - 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. ... 17 But if you bear the name "Jew" and rely upon the Law and boast in God, ... 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Romans 3:1 NASB - 1 Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision?

Romans 10:12 NASB - 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;

1 Corinthians 9:20 NASB - 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;

Galatians 2:14 NASB - 14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, "If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?

Galatians 3:28 NASB - 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:11 NASB - 11 a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all.

Romans 3:9, 29 NASB - 9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; ... 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,

Romans 9:24 NASB - 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

1 Corinthians 1:22-24 NASB - 22 For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, 24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

1 Corinthians 9:20 NASB - 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;

1 Corinthians 10:32 NASB - 32 Give no offense either to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God;

1 Corinthians 12:13 NASB - 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

2 Corinthians 11:24 NASB - 24 Five times I received from the Jews thirty-nine lashes.

Galatians 2:13-15 NASB - 13 The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, "If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews? 15 "We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles;

1 Thessalonians 2:14 NASB - 14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews,

Revelation 2:9 NASB - 9 'I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich), and the blasphemy by those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

Revelation 3:9 NASB - 9 'Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie--I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and make them know that I have loved you.

turbosixx
July 17th, 2015, 09:44 AM
There is nothing wrong with being a Jew.

What is your point? Can one be a Jew in Christ?

Jacob
July 17th, 2015, 10:03 AM
What is your point? Can one be a Jew in Christ?Of course. I believe so. A Jew and in Christ, or do you mean a "spiritual Jew" who was not born a Jew (and is this or would this be Biblical?)?

turbosixx
July 17th, 2015, 10:55 AM
Of course. I believe so. A Jew and in Christ, or do you mean a "spiritual Jew" who was not born a Jew (and is this or would this be Biblical?)?

In your understanding, what value is there in being a Jew physically?

This is what I understand. Being physically a Jew in Christ is of no value because we are all one in Jesus. Outside of Jesus can anyone, Jew or not, be saved?

Jacob
July 17th, 2015, 10:58 AM
In your understanding, what value is there in being a Jew physically?

This is what I understand. Being physically a Jew in Christ is of no value because we are all one in Jesus. Outside of Jesus can anyone, Jew or not, be saved?Being in Christ is of value for Jew and Gentile or Greek.

Romans 3:1-2 NASB - 1 Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2 Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God.

turbosixx
July 17th, 2015, 11:08 AM
Being in Christ is of value for Jew and Gentile or Greek.

Romans 3:1-2 NASB - 1 Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2 Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God.

What's advantage number 2? We all have the oracles of God.
Are there Jews and Gentiles in Christ or are they one?

Jacob
July 17th, 2015, 11:10 AM
What's advantage number 2?
Are there Jews and Gentiles in Christ or are they one?What do you mean? How does the text read (to you)?

turbosixx
July 17th, 2015, 11:12 AM
What do you mean? How does the text read (to you)?

There is no how does it read "to me". I only know what it says.


28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Jacob
July 17th, 2015, 11:17 AM
What's advantage number 2? We all have the oracles of God.
Are there Jews and Gentiles in Christ or are they one?We only have God's word because of the Jews.

turbosixx
July 17th, 2015, 11:23 AM
We only have God's word because of the Jews.

I don't question that, but what's advantage #2?

Jacob
July 17th, 2015, 11:32 AM
I don't question that, but what's advantage #2?My question is now how does the text (the book of Romans, the epistle or letter to the Romans written by Paul) answer this your question?

turbosixx
July 17th, 2015, 12:16 PM
My question is now how does the text (the book of Romans, the epistle or letter to the Romans written by Paul) answer this your question?

I was hoping you knew, I don't see another advantage. The gospel is to them first but I don't see how that is an advantage because the gospel is for all and it has long since been delivered to them first.

Jacob
July 17th, 2015, 12:27 PM
I was hoping you knew, I don't see another advantage. The gospel is to them first but I don't see how that is an advantage because the gospel is for all and it has long since been delivered to them first.

Are you asking about Paul's words?

turbosixx
July 17th, 2015, 12:33 PM
Are you asking about Paul's words?

Yes

1Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2 Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God.

I don't see a second of all, I was hoping you could show me.

Jacob
July 17th, 2015, 12:58 PM
Yes

1Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2 Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God.

I don't see a second of all, I was hoping you could show me.

Paul does say "first of all".

turbosixx
July 17th, 2015, 01:07 PM
Paul does say "first of all".

Yes, first they have the oracles of God, but is that it for the advantage of being a Jew?

Jacob
July 17th, 2015, 01:11 PM
Yes, first they have the oracles of God, but is that it for the advantage of being a Jew?

Not only do they have them (the oracles of God, the word of God), but they were entrusted with them.

turbosixx
July 17th, 2015, 01:20 PM
Not only do they have them (the oracles of God, the word of God), but they were entrusted with them.

Past tense.

Jacob
July 17th, 2015, 01:24 PM
Past tense.

Yes, God did entrust them with His word. It is not that they are no longer entrusted with them.

turbosixx
July 17th, 2015, 01:31 PM
Yes, God did entrust them with His word. It is not that they are no longer entrusted with them.

It has now been revealed and everyone has it now.

Am I correct in assuming you place special significance on someone be a Jew physically?

Jacob
July 17th, 2015, 01:34 PM
It has now been revealed and everyone has it now.

Am I correct in assuming you place special significance on someone be a Jew physically?

Why not? Scripture reveals that God chose them as His own. But the verse we were looking at says an advantage of being a Jew.

turbosixx
July 17th, 2015, 01:42 PM
Why not? Scripture reveals that God chose them as His own. But the verse we were looking at says an advantage of being a Jew.

Chose them OT. NT Christians are God's chosen.

9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

Jacob
July 17th, 2015, 01:52 PM
Chose them OT. NT Christians are God's chosen.

9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

Who was 1 Peter written to?

turbosixx
July 17th, 2015, 01:52 PM
Who was 1 Peter written to?

Christians

Angel4Truth
July 17th, 2015, 02:06 PM
Who was 1 Peter written to?

1 Peter 2:12 NASB - 12 Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.

It was written to believers. There is no jew or gentile in Christ. Gentile there refers to non believers.

turbosixx
July 17th, 2015, 02:10 PM
It was written to believers. There is no jew or gentile in Christ. Gentile there refers to non believers.

Amen

Jacob
July 17th, 2015, 02:13 PM
Christians

I can say believers. I don't believe it makes sense to say Gentiles.

Angel4Truth
July 17th, 2015, 02:14 PM
I can say believers. I don't believe it makes sense to say Gentiles.

It does if you know what the word itself means, it means the nations. Meaning everyone outside of the church in the context.

Jacob
July 17th, 2015, 02:18 PM
It does if you know what the word itself means, it means the nations. Meaning everyone outside of the church in the context.

Can you see the word in the text of 1 Peter?

Angel4Truth
July 17th, 2015, 02:27 PM
Can you see the word in the text of 1 Peter?

Gentiles -

See Nations, the

Gentiles

(Heb., usually in plural, goyim), meaning in general all nations except the Jews. In course of time, as the Jews began more and more to pride themselves on their peculiar privileges, it acquired unpleasant associations, and was used as a term of contempt.


After the church, where there is no jew or gentile in Christ, it just means everyone outside of Christ. One is no longer a jew or gentile in Christ.

turbosixx
July 17th, 2015, 02:52 PM
I don't believe it makes sense to say Gentiles.

What do you mean by this?

Jacob
July 17th, 2015, 04:20 PM
Gentiles -

See Nations, the

Gentiles

(Heb., usually in plural, goyim), meaning in general all nations except the Jews. In course of time, as the Jews began more and more to pride themselves on their peculiar privileges, it acquired unpleasant associations, and was used as a term of contempt.


After the church, where there is no jew or gentile in Christ, it just means everyone outside of Christ. One is no longer a jew or gentile in Christ.

Do you believe all prophecy pertaining to Israel has already been fulfilled? Obviously the people of Israel, the Jews, still exist. I believe that they are still the people of God.

Jacob
July 17th, 2015, 04:21 PM
What do you mean by this?

I don't believe it was written to Gentiles.

turbosixx
July 17th, 2015, 04:25 PM
I don't believe it was written to Gentiles.

When you say Gentiles, do you mean non-Christians or do you mean non-physical Jews?

Jacob
July 17th, 2015, 04:36 PM
When you say Gentiles, do you mean non-Christians or do you mean non-physical Jews?

I mean the nations other than Israel, or those who are either non-believers or not Jews. A Gentile is not a Jew. A Jew can be a Christian. But I don't believe Peter is necessarily speaking to Christians, but he is speaking to believers. Anyone can read, understand, and apply what he wrote to their lives. Those who believed Jesus to be the Messiah could be called Christians at some point in the first century (read Acts 11:26 NASB ), but I don't know that Peter did here. Maybe those who lived outside of the nation of Israel but who were unbelievers.

achduke
July 17th, 2015, 04:43 PM
Do you believe all prophecy pertaining to Israel has already been fulfilled? Obviously the people of Israel, the Jews, still exist. I believe that they are still the people of God.

Israel is more then the Jews.

achduke
July 17th, 2015, 04:47 PM
I mean the nations other than Israel, or those who are either non-believers or not Jews. A Gentile is not a Jew. A Jew can be a Christian. But I don't believe Peter is necessarily speaking to Christians, but he is speaking to believers. Anyone can read, understand, and apply what he wrote to their lives. Those who believed Jesus to be the Messiah could be called Christians at some point in the first century (read Acts 11:26 NASB ), but I don't know that Peter did here. Maybe those who lived outside of the nation of Israel but who were unbelievers.

Lev 19:34 'But the stranger who dwells among you shall be to you as one born among you, and you shall love him as yourself; for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

Deu 10:19 "Therefore love the stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.

Lev 24:22 'You shall have the same law for the stranger and for one from your own country; for I am the LORD your God.' "

Jacob
July 17th, 2015, 05:01 PM
Israel is more then the Jews.

Are you talking about the nation of Israel at the time of Christ, or shortly thereafter?

achduke
July 17th, 2015, 05:23 PM
Are you talking about the nation of Israel at the time of Christ, or shortly thereafter?

Well I am not a preterist so I believe it was fulfilled during Christ, after Christ and most of the remnant will not come back until the end times.

Jacob
July 17th, 2015, 07:56 PM
Well I am not a preterist so I believe it was fulfilled during Christ, after Christ and most of the remnant will not come back until the end times.By shortly thereafter I am referring to when the New Testament writings and 1 Peter in particular were written.

achduke
July 17th, 2015, 08:07 PM
By shortly thereafter I am referring to when the New Testament writings and 1 Peter in particular were written.

No I believe they are still being grafted in.

Jacob
July 17th, 2015, 08:08 PM
No I believe they are still being grafted in.The wild branches you mean.

Romans 11:24 NASB - 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

achduke
July 17th, 2015, 08:10 PM
The wild branches you mean.

Romans 11:24 NASB - 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

Correct and natural branches also. Many Jews are still coming to Christ.

Jacob
July 17th, 2015, 08:16 PM
Correct and natural branches also. Many Jews are still coming to Christ.I believe you are correct. There are Jews who are coming to Christ.

Please read all of Romans 11 if you are not already well acquainted with it.

achduke
July 17th, 2015, 08:24 PM
I believe you are correct. There are Jews who are coming to Christ.

Please read all of Romans 11 if you are not already well acquainted with it.

Thank you, I do have an understanding of Romans 11.

Jer 31:31 "Behold, the days are coming," says the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah

Hos 2:16 "And it shall be, in that day," says the LORD, "That you will call Me 'My Husband,' and no longer call Me 'My Master,'

Jacob
July 17th, 2015, 08:32 PM
Thank you, I do have an understanding of Romans 11.

Jer 31:31 "Behold, the days are coming," says the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah

Hos 2:16 "And it shall be, in that day," says the LORD, "That you will call Me 'My Husband,' and no longer call Me 'My Master,'(What is) the new covenant? (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111066)


The Bible speaks of the new covenant.

Jeremiah 31:31 NASB - 31 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,

The new covenant is spoken of in the new testament writings in the following locations.

Luke 22:20 NASB - 20 And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.

1 Corinthians 11:25 NASB - 25 In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2 Corinthians 3:6 NASB - 6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Hebrews 8:8, 13 NASB - 8 For finding fault with them, He says, "BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH; ... 13 When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

Hebrews 9:15 NASB - 15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Hebrews 12:24 NASB - 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

achduke
July 17th, 2015, 09:22 PM
(What is) the new covenant? (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111066)

Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Act 1:5 "for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

Joh 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever,

Jacob
July 17th, 2015, 09:27 PM
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Act 1:5 "for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

Joh 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever,Born again in the Bible.

John 3:3, 7 NASB - 3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." ... 7 "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

1 Peter 1:3, 23 NASB - 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, ... 23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

achduke
July 17th, 2015, 09:50 PM
Born again in the Bible.

John 3:3, 7 NASB - 3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." ... 7 "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

1 Peter 1:3, 23 NASB - 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, ... 23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

Joh 2:21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body.

Luk 17:21 "nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you."

1Co 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

turbosixx
July 18th, 2015, 05:19 AM
I mean the nations other than Israel, or those who are either non-believers or not Jews. A Gentile is not a Jew. A Jew can be a Christian. But I don't believe Peter is necessarily speaking to Christians, but he is speaking to believers. Anyone can read, understand, and apply what he wrote to their lives. Those who believed Jesus to be the Messiah could be called Christians at some point in the first century (read Acts 11:26 NASB ), but I don't know that Peter did here. Maybe those who lived outside of the nation of Israel but who were unbelievers.

You are making this more complicated than it is.


The gospel is for all with no distinction of Jew or Gentile.
Matt. 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations,
Mark 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
There is no distinction in those passages.

Paul condemns Peter for showing distinction which is not the truth of the gospel.

Gal. 2:11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision. 13 The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, "If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?

There is no division in Christ and outside of Christ is there another way?

Jacob
July 18th, 2015, 11:42 PM
Joh 2:21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body.

Luk 17:21 "nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you."

1Co 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?Acts 1:4-8 NASB - 4 Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, "Which," He said, "you heard of from Me; 5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now." 6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?" 7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."

Acts 2:1-4 NASB - 1 When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. 2 And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.

Acts 10:9-48 NASB - 9 On the next day, as they were on their way and approaching the city, Peter went up on the housetop about the sixth hour to pray. 10 But he became hungry and was desiring to eat; but while they were making preparations, he fell into a trance; 11 and he saw the sky opened up, and an object like a great sheet coming down, lowered by four corners to the ground, 12 and there were in it all kinds of four-footed animals and crawling creatures of the earth and birds of the air. 13 A voice came to him, "Get up, Peter, kill and eat!" 14 But Peter said, "By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything unholy and unclean." 15 Again a voice came to him a second time, "What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy." 16 This happened three times, and immediately the object was taken up into the sky. 17 Now while Peter was greatly perplexed in mind as to what the vision which he had seen might be, behold, the men who had been sent by Cornelius, having asked directions for Simon's house, appeared at the gate; 18 and calling out, they were asking whether Simon, who was also called Peter, was staying there. 19 While Peter was reflecting on the vision, the Spirit said to him, "Behold, three men are looking for you. 20 "But get up, go downstairs and accompany them without misgivings, for I have sent them Myself." 21 Peter went down to the men and said, "Behold, I am the one you are looking for; what is the reason for which you have come?" 22 They said, "Cornelius, a centurion, a righteous and God-fearing man well spoken of by the entire nation of the Jews, was divinely directed by a holy angel to send for you to come to his house and hear a message from you." 23 So he invited them in and gave them lodging. And on the next day he got up and went away with them, and some of the brethren from Joppa accompanied him. 24 On the following day he entered Caesarea. Now Cornelius was waiting for them and had called together his relatives and close friends. 25 When Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter raised him up, saying, "Stand up; I too am just a man." 27 As he talked with him, he entered and found many people assembled. 28 And he said to them, "You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean. 29 "That is why I came without even raising any objection when I was sent for. So I ask for what reason you have sent for me." 30 Cornelius said, "Four days ago to this hour, I was praying in my house during the ninth hour; and behold, a man stood before me in shining garments, 31 and he said, 'Cornelius, your prayer has been heard and your alms have been remembered before God. 32 'Therefore send to Joppa and invite Simon, who is also called Peter, to come to you; he is staying at the house of Simon the tanner by the sea.' 33 "So I sent for you immediately, and you have been kind enough to come. Now then, we are all here present before God to hear all that you have been commanded by the Lord." 34 Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35 but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him. 36 "The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all)-- 37 you yourselves know the thing which took place throughout all Judea, starting from Galilee, after the baptism which John proclaimed. 38 "You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. 39 "We are witnesses of all the things He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They also put Him to death by hanging Him on a cross. 40 "God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses who were chosen beforehand by God, that is, to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. 42 "And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead. 43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins." 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?" 48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.

Jacob
July 18th, 2015, 11:44 PM
You are making this more complicated than it is.


The gospel is for all with no distinction of Jew or Gentile.
Matt. 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations,
Mark 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
There is no distinction in those passages.

Paul condemns Peter for showing distinction which is not the truth of the gospel.

Gal. 2:11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision. 13 The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, "If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?

There is no division in Christ and outside of Christ is there another way?The gospel does not say don't obey God's commands. But everything we do is to be done in love, whether to Jew or Gentile. The gospel is not the same as the Law of God by which a person is convicted of sin and comes to understand their need for Jesus to be their Savior.

Ephesians 2:8-9 NASB.

Dan Emanuel
July 19th, 2015, 12:50 AM
The gospel does not say don't obey God's commands. But everything we do is to be done in love, whether to Jew or Gentile. The gospel is not the same as the Law of God by which a person is convicted of sin and comes to understand their need for Jesus to be their Savior.

Ephesians 2:8-9 NASB.The gospel is a story about what happen's to you when you believe in Jesus. John 3:16 KJV.

The gospel doesn't say anything at all about "God's command's." And if anything at all distract's from the gospel being a story about what happen's to you when you believe in Jesus, your somehow losing the plot of the story.


Daniel

turbosixx
July 19th, 2015, 05:33 AM
The gospel does not say don't obey God's commands.

Agreed.

1 Jn. 2:3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.

When you say commandments, which are you referring to? OT or NT?

Jacob
July 19th, 2015, 09:16 AM
The gospel is a story about what happen's to you when you believe in Jesus. John 3:16 KJV.

The gospel doesn't say anything at all about "God's command's." And if anything at all distract's from the gospel being a story about what happen's to you when you believe in Jesus, your somehow losing the plot of the story.


DanielI do know we are to repent in order to be saved. We repent of having broken God's commands. Is the gospel something to believe or something to respond to?

Jacob
July 19th, 2015, 09:17 AM
Agreed.

1 Jn. 2:3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.

When you say commandments, which are you referring to? OT or NT?All of God's commands are God's commands. So I am not saying one or the other.

turbosixx
July 19th, 2015, 09:34 AM
All of God's commands are God's commands. So I am not saying one or the other.

How can we keep them all, for instance:

Duet. 22:22 "If a man is found lying with a married woman, then both of them shall die, the man who lay with the woman, and the woman; thus you shall purge the evil from Israel.

Jacob
July 19th, 2015, 11:26 AM
How can we keep them all, for instance:

Duet. 22:22 "If a man is found lying with a married woman, then both of them shall die, the man who lay with the woman, and the woman; thus you shall purge the evil from Israel. That is what should happen. But how is it possible that a person can confess their sin in repentance, and receive forgiveness of sins and the free gift of eternal life because of Christ's substitution death on the cross. He defeated death and lives forevermore. Now we can live in newness of life, even unto life eternal. So this is not saying this is not a command of God. However, even then, under the Law (if there still is an under the Law) no one should die on the witness of just one person. There must be two or three witnesses, according to the Law. But so that no one can say it is okay I confessed this sin, or even knew that I could, so that is why I transgressed God's Law.

turbosixx
July 19th, 2015, 11:48 AM
That is what should happen. But how is it possible that a person can confess their sin in repentance, and receive forgiveness of sins and the free gift of eternal life because of Christ's substitution death on the cross. He defeated death and lives forevermore. Now we can live in newness of life, even unto life eternal. So this is not saying this is not a command of God. However, even then, under the Law (if there still is an under the Law) no one should die on the witness of just one person. There must be two or three witnesses, according to the Law. But so that no one can say it is okay I confessed this sin, or even knew that I could, so that is why I transgressed God's Law.

The law of Christ has done away with the old law.

Rom. 7:6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

If you will notice, Jesus took the written letter of the law and placed it within us.

Matt. 5:27 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery'; 28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Heb. 8:8....."says the Lord, When I will effect a new covenant With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; 9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers On the day when I took them by the hand To lead them out of the land of Egypt;.... says the Lord: I will put My laws into their minds, And I will write them on their hearts.

Jacob
July 19th, 2015, 12:02 PM
The law of Christ has done away with the old law.

Rom. 7:6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

If you will notice, Jesus took the written letter of the law and placed it within us.

Matt. 5:27 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery'; 28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Heb. 8:8....."says the Lord, When I will effect a new covenant With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; 9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers On the day when I took them by the hand To lead them out of the land of Egypt;.... says the Lord: I will put My laws into their minds, And I will write them on their hearts. I know there is a new covenant, but I don't know that there is a new law.


Have you read the entire Bible?

I don't know if there is such a thing as new covenant law.Law and Command (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110802)

(What is) the new covenant? (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111066)

The new covenant, the Ten Commandments & the Law, a change of law & the law of Christ (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111159)

What does "through the Law I died to the Law" mean"? (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111473)

What is this change of law? (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111516)

Discussion about the new covenant (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111661&)

achduke
July 19th, 2015, 12:06 PM
The law of Christ has done away with the old law.

Rom. 7:6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

If you will notice, Jesus took the written letter of the law and placed it within us.

Matt. 5:27 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery'; 28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Heb. 8:8....."says the Lord, When I will effect a new covenant With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; 9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers On the day when I took them by the hand To lead them out of the land of Egypt;.... says the Lord: I will put My laws into their minds, And I will write them on their hearts.

The law is not done away with. Now the holy spirit guides us through it. For once you have the holy spirit you follow the spirit and not fleshly carnal desires.

Jacob
July 19th, 2015, 12:08 PM
Are you familiar with Romans 8:1-4 NASB?

turbosixx
July 19th, 2015, 12:24 PM
I know there is a new covenant, but I don't know that there is a new law.



God gave them the Mosaical law when they came out of Egypt, right. Looks to me like law and covenant are interchangeable.

Heb. 8:8 "Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, When I will effect a new covenant With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; 9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers On the day when I took them by the hand To lead them out of the land of Egypt; For they did not continue in My covenant,

9:18 Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood. 19 For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, "This is the blood of the covenant which God commanded you."

If the Mosaical law was not a covenant, you will have to explain to me how it's not.

Jacob
July 19th, 2015, 12:26 PM
God gave them the Mosaical law when they came out of Egypt, right. Looks to me like law and covenant are interchangeable.

Heb. 8:8 "Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, When I will effect a new covenant With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; 9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers On the day when I took them by the hand To lead them out of the land of Egypt; For they did not continue in My covenant,

9:18 Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood. 19 For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, "This is the blood of the covenant which God commanded you."

If the Mosaical law was not a covenant, you will have to explain to me how it's not.The Law of Moses is associated with the old covenant.

turbosixx
July 19th, 2015, 12:28 PM
The Law of Moses is associated with the old covenant.

What does that mean? Where is the separation?

turbosixx
July 19th, 2015, 12:30 PM
The law is not done away with. Now the holy spirit guides us through it. For once you have the holy spirit you follow the spirit and not fleshly carnal desires.

You'll have to give me more explanation if you are saying we are under the Mosaical law.

Gal. 3: 23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Jacob
July 19th, 2015, 12:31 PM
What does that mean? Where is the separation?There is an old covenant and a new covenant. The old covenant has Law associated with it, the Law of Moses.

turbosixx
July 19th, 2015, 12:40 PM
There is an old covenant and a new covenant. The old covenant has Law associated with it, the Law of Moses.


The new has a law associated with it as well.

Heb. 7:12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.

1 Cor. 9:21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.

Gal. 6:2 Bear one another's burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.

achduke
July 19th, 2015, 12:44 PM
You'll have to give me more explanation if you are saying we are under the Mosaical law.

Gal. 3: 23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

We are under the law of the Spirit. Do what the Holy Spirit guides you to do.

Jacob
July 19th, 2015, 12:46 PM
The new has a law associated with it as well.

Heb. 7:12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.

1 Cor. 9:21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.

Gal. 6:2 Bear one another's burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.The change of priesthood is associated with a change of law. Or rather, the change of law is associated with the change of priesthood. What does Hebrews say about the Law and the change of law? What is the law now? What is the change of law about? What is the change of law? What is the law changed to? Or is it that the change of law is associated with the change of priesthood, and therefore with a change of priesthood how is the law (affected) and what law is affected? Does it only pertain to the priesthood, or is that the wrong view? That is, is it a law pertaining to the priesthood that is changed, or that the priesthood is changed so things are different now... and who is affected by it (anyone other than the priests?)? Or is the point that all (all Israel or not all Israel?) are affected? Is the change of law different (not in regard to Israel, but the whole world)? If so, what is the new covenant? The old covenant is not a/the priesthood. A covenant is not a priesthood.

Jacob
July 19th, 2015, 12:49 PM
We are under the law of the Spirit. Do what the Holy Spirit guides you to do.Romans 8:2 NASB - 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

achduke
July 19th, 2015, 01:07 PM
Romans 8:2 NASB - 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

Correct.

Jacob
July 19th, 2015, 01:11 PM
Correct.It doesn't say under and it doesn't just say law of the Spirit. It says the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.

achduke
July 19th, 2015, 01:16 PM
It doesn't say under and it doesn't just say law of the Spirit. It says the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.

Thank you. Just going from memory.

turbosixx
July 19th, 2015, 01:21 PM
The change of priesthood is associated with a change of law. Or rather, the change of law is associated with the change of priesthood. What does Hebrews say about the Law and the change of law? What is the law now? What is the change of law about? What is the change of law? What is the law changed to? Or is it that the change of law is associated with the change of priesthood, and therefore with a change of priesthood how is the law (affected) and what law is affected? Does it only pertain to the priesthood, or is that the wrong view? That is, is it a law pertaining to the priesthood that is changed, or that the priesthood is changed so things are different now... and who is affected by it (anyone other than the priests?)? Or is the point that all (all Israel or not all Israel?) are affected? Is the change of law different (not in regard to Israel, but the whole world)? If so, what is the new covenant? The old covenant is not a/the priesthood. A covenant is not a priesthood.

Wow that's a lot of questions. I will give a big picture and leave you with it.

Man died because of sin (Adam), God promised Abraham his seed would bless the world (Christ). The covenant with Abraham could not remove sin. The law (Levite Priesthood) was added but had no provision for the forgiveness of sin, it could not save you. Under the new covenant Jesus is our High Priest and his blood cleanses our sins.

Romans, Galatians and Hebrews are the best at understanding how the old and new affect Christians. They were trying to keep the law and serve Christ but Paul continually tells them you can't do both.

Gal. 5:3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Jacob
July 19th, 2015, 01:31 PM
Thank you. Just going from memory.
No problem. Glad to help.

Jacob
July 19th, 2015, 01:38 PM
Wow that's a lot of questions. I will give a big picture and leave you with it.

Man died because of sin (Adam), God promised Abraham his seed would bless the world (Christ). The covenant with Abraham could not remove sin. The law (Levite Priesthood) was added but had no provision for the forgiveness of sin, it could not save you. Under the new covenant Jesus is our High Priest and his blood cleanses our sins.

Romans, Galatians and Hebrews are the best at understanding how the old and new affect Christians. They were trying to keep the law and serve Christ but Paul continually tells them you can't do both.

Gal. 5:3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
There is no problem with a person choosing to keep the Law. But there is no way that keeping the Law saves anyone, because of our flesh.

But the priesthood is not the law. There was a law associated with the priesthood. Was it the Law of Moses? The Ten Commandments were for all Israel. The rest of the Law (which, "rest of the Law" needs to be understood in its true context whatever that context is (the things Moses wrote down)) was written (down) by Moses at the command or instruction of God. It is all God's word. The commands, these commands, are commands of God.

Priests observe the Law but there are commands specific to priests. All of Israel, including those who lived in the land but were not born of Israel, observe (observed) the same Law.

turbosixx
July 19th, 2015, 02:45 PM
There is no problem with a person choosing to keep the Law.

4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Jacob
July 19th, 2015, 03:09 PM
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.Obeying God's Law is not necessarily seeking to be justified by the law. If you think you can be saved/justified/born again by keeping the Law, you may be wrong in your thinking.

Philippians 3:9 NASB
Ephesians 2:8-9 NASB
Titus 3:6 NASB
Romans 4:1-8 NASB
Galatians 3:2 NASB, Galatians 3:5-9 NASB
James 2:21 NASB, James 2:24-25 NASB
Galatians 2:16 NASB
Romans 11:6 NASB
Hebrews 11:6 NASB

turbosixx
July 19th, 2015, 03:30 PM
Obeying God's Law is not necessarily seeking to be justified by the law. If you think you can be saved/justified/born again by keeping the Law, you may be wrong in your thinking.

Philippians 3:9 NASB
Ephesians 2:8-9 NASB
Titus 3:6 NASB
Romans 4:1-8 NASB
Galatians 3:2 NASB, Galatians 3:5-9 NASB
James 2:21 NASB, James 2:24-25 NASB
Galatians 2:16 NASB
Romans 11:6 NASB
Hebrews 11:6 NASB

Look at verse 3, And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.

What law demanded circumcision? Mosaical.

Then he says 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

You can't follow both.

Jacob
July 19th, 2015, 03:40 PM
Look at verse 3, And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.

What law demanded circumcision? Mosaical.

Then he says 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

You can't follow both.The commandment in regard to circumcision predates Moses. You can go back to Abraham.

Romans 4:10-12 NASB - 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.

Genesis 17:23-25 NASB - 23 Then Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all the servants who were born in his house and all who were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's household, and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the very same day, as God had said to him. 24 Now Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. 25 And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.

Genesis 21:4 NASB - 4 Then Abraham circumcised his son Isaac when he was eight days old, as God had commanded him.

Romans 2:25-26 NASB
1 Corinthians 7:19 NASB
Galatians 5:6 NASB
Galatians 6:15 NASB
Ephesians 2:11 NASB
Acts 15:1-41 NASB
Galatians 2:3 NASB
Acts 16:3 NASB
Romans 8:1-4 NASB

1 Corinthians 7:18 NASB - 18 Was any man called when he was already circumcised? He is not to become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called in uncircumcision? He is not to be circumcised.

turbosixx
July 19th, 2015, 03:48 PM
The commandment in regard to circumcision predates Moses. You can go back to Abraham.

Romans 4:10-12 NASB - 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.

Genesis 17:23-25 NASB - 23 Then Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all the servants who were born in his house and all who were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's household, and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the very same day, as God had said to him. 24 Now Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. 25 And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.

Genesis 21:4 NASB - 4 Then Abraham circumcised his son Isaac when he was eight days old, as God had commanded him.

Romans 2:25-26 NASB
1 Corinthians 7:19 NASB
Galatians 5:6 NASB
Galatians 6:15 NASB
Ephesians 2:11 NASB
Acts 15:1-41 NASB
Galatians 2:3 NASB
Acts 16:3 NASB
Romans 8:1-4 NASB

1 Corinthians 7:18 NASB - 18 Was any man called when he was already circumcised? He is not to become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called in uncircumcision? He is not to be circumcised.

If reading Romans, Galatians and Hebrews can't convince you, neither can I. I only know what I read.

Rom. 7:2 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband...... 6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Good luck with your studies.

Jacob
July 19th, 2015, 03:53 PM
If reading Romans, Galatians and Hebrews can't convince you, neither can I. I only know what I read.

Rom. 7:2 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband...... 6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Good luck with your studies.
Who wasn't convinced? You believe I am not convinced about what?

Romans 7:12 NASB Romans 7:16 NASB - 12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.

1 Timothy 1:5-11 NASB - 5 But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6 For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, 7 wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions. 8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers 10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

The point of the thread was if 1 Peter was not written to Gentiles, who was it written to?

turbosixx
July 19th, 2015, 04:21 PM
Who wasn't convinced? You believe I am not convinced about what?

Romans 7:12 NASB Romans 7:16 NASB - 12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.

1 Timothy 1:5-11 NASB - 5 But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6 For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, 7 wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions. 8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers 10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

The point of the thread was if 1 Peter was not written to Gentiles, who was it written to?

It was written to Christians. Today there is only people in Christ and people outside of Christ. In Christ there is no Jew or Gentile.

Jacob
July 19th, 2015, 04:25 PM
It was written to Christians. Today there is only people in Christ and people outside of Christ. In Christ there is no Jew or Gentile.I would say the people he was writing to were believers in God and believers in the Messiah (Yeshua, Jesus). They are no doubt believers. Whether or not they were called Christians I do not know.

Acts 11:26 NASB - 26 and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. And for an entire year they met with the church and taught considerable numbers; and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.

turbosixx
July 19th, 2015, 04:31 PM
I would say the people he was writing to were believers in God and believers in the Messiah (Yeshua, Jesus). They are no doubt believers. Whether or not they were called Christians I do not know.

Acts 11:26 NASB - 26 and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. And for an entire year they met with the church and taught considerable numbers; and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.

No matter what they are called, one is either in Christ or not. Here they are called disciples. Are they not believers and Christians?

Matt. 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

Jacob
July 19th, 2015, 04:39 PM
No matter what they are called, one is either in Christ or not. Here they are called disciples. Are they not believers and Christians?

Matt. 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,Believers yes, and believers in Jesus as the Christ (Messiah) yes. But called Christians I am uncertain. I do not know if geography was involved in this, but the disciples were not originally or at first called Christians until a time at Antioch, a place where Paul was present. Peter saw Gentiles come to Christ first, but Peter also ministered to those who were circumcised.

Romans 15:8 NASB - 8 For I say that Christ has become a servant to the circumcision on behalf of the truth of God to confirm the promises given to the fathers,

Galatians 2:7-9 NASB - 7 But on the contrary, seeing that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised 8 (for He who effectually worked for Peter in his apostleship to the circumcised effectually worked for me also to the Gentiles), 9 and recognizing the grace that had been given to me, James and Cephas and John, who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, so that we might go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.

Therefore it is interesting to ask who wrote 1 Peter.

1 Peter 1:1 NASB - 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen

1 Peter 2:11-12 NASB - 11 Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul. 12 Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.

1 Peter 4:3 NASB - 3 For the time already past is sufficient for you to have carried out the desire of the Gentiles, having pursued a course of sensuality, lusts, drunkenness, carousing, drinking parties and abominable idolatries.

turbosixx
July 19th, 2015, 04:42 PM
Believers yes, and believers in Jesus as the Christ (Messiah) yes. But called Christians I am uncertain. I do not know if geography was involved in this, but the disciples were not originally or at first called Christians until a time at Antioch, a place where Paul was present. Peter saw Gentiles come to Christ first, but Peter also ministered to those who were circumcised.

Romans 15:8 NASB - 8 For I say that Christ has become a servant to the circumcision on behalf of the truth of God to confirm the promises given to the fathers,

Galatians 2:7-9 NASB - 7 But on the contrary, seeing that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised 8 (for He who effectually worked for Peter in his apostleship to the circumcised effectually worked for me also to the Gentiles), 9 and recognizing the grace that had been given to me, James and Cephas and John, who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, so that we might go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.

Therefore it is interesting to ask who wrote 1 Peter.

1 Peter 1:1 NASB - 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen

1 Peter 2:11-12 NASB - 11 Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul. 12 Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.

1 Peter 4:3 NASB - 3 For the time already past is sufficient for you to have carried out the desire of the Gentiles, having pursued a course of sensuality, lusts, drunkenness, carousing, drinking parties and abominable idolatries.

Although we see different labels, are they one in Christ?

Jacob
July 19th, 2015, 04:44 PM
Although we see different labels, are they one in Christ?There is no distinction between Jew and Gentile in Christ.

My point was that Peter was not writing to people who lived in Israel.

But can a believer be a Jew or a believer be a Gentile?

turbosixx
July 20th, 2015, 09:16 AM
There is no distinction between Jew and Gentile in Christ.

My point was that Peter was not writing to people who lived in Israel.

But can a believer be a Jew or a believer be a Gentile?

Christ is not divided and believers are Christians no matter what they were before.

Look at Paul condemning Peter for showing distinction in Christ between Jew and Gentile and applying that separation that the old law demanded. Paul is calling people by what they were formally so he can point out the problem.

11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles (no distinction); but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision. 13 The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, "If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?
15 "We are Jews by nature(OT God's people) and not sinners from among the Gentiles (OT not God's people); 16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus(saved), even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified(sinner/lost). 17 But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ(Faith), we ourselves have also been found sinners(Old Law because it can't save), is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be! 18 For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor. 19 For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

Jacob
July 20th, 2015, 11:11 AM
Christ is not divided and believers are Christians no matter what they were before.

Look at Paul condemning Peter for showing distinction in Christ between Jew and Gentile and applying that separation that the old law demanded. Paul is calling people by what they were formally so he can point out the problem.

11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles (no distinction); but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision. 13 The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, "If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?
15 "We are Jews by nature(OT God's people) and not sinners from among the Gentiles (OT not God's people); 16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus(saved), even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified(sinner/lost). 17 But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ(Faith), we ourselves have also been found sinners(Old Law because it can't save), is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be! 18 For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor. 19 For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

Righteousness doesn't come by the Law. Is it true that a person could never be saved by observing the Law (OT)?

Peter's problem wasn't that he kept the Law, but that even in that he didn't he would imply to the Gentile either that they were not saved, could not be saved, or were not included among the people of God, in that he withdrew fearing the party of the circumcision... which did compel the Gentiles (believers or unbelievers here?) to live like Jews (which is not a requirement in Christ). The problem was not in living like the Jews, but the hypocrisy of Peter created confusion. Meaning, observing God's Law is fine... but making it appear like you have to be a Jew to be saved or be called among God's people, justified, is communicating the wrong message.

1 Corinthians 7:18 NASB - 18 Was any man called when he was already circumcised? He is not to become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called in uncircumcision? He is not to be circumcised.

So this is my perspective.

Remember what Paul said here?

1 Corinthians 9:16-23 NASB - 16 For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for I am under compulsion; for woe is me if I do not preach the gospel. 17 For if I do this voluntarily, I have a reward; but if against my will, I have a stewardship entrusted to me. 18 What then is my reward? That, when I preach the gospel, I may offer the gospel without charge, so as not to make full use of my right in the gospel. 19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some. 23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.

And here?

Philippians 3:3-16 NASB - 3 for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh, 4 although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless. 7 But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, 9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; 11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you; 16 however, let us keep living by that same standard to which we have attained.

Angel4Truth
July 20th, 2015, 12:23 PM
Do you believe all prophecy pertaining to Israel has already been fulfilled? no, more is to come

Jacob
July 20th, 2015, 12:25 PM
no, more is to comeWhere to start (since Jesus did not come to abolish the Law or the Prophets but to fulfill)?

Angel4Truth
July 20th, 2015, 12:26 PM
But can a believer be a Jew or a believer be a Gentile?

By faith, no, by physical lineage, only.

Jacob
July 20th, 2015, 12:27 PM
By faith, no, by physical lineage, only.If you are correct I can say it is difficult for me to understand.

There is no distinction or there is neither Jew or Gentile.

What is the commonwealth of Israel, and are all believers a part of it?

Angel4Truth
July 20th, 2015, 12:32 PM
If you are correct I can say it is difficult for me to understand. Whats difficult to understand, if one is a christian they are no longer agnostic (gentile) and no longer a jew (practices judaism), but they are still jewish by lineage, or non jewish (gentile) by lineage.


There is no distinction or there is neither Jew or Gentile.

Correct, spiritually.


What is the commonwealth of Israel, and are all believers a part of it? Both a nation and a people. Still. Its not finished yet.

Jacob
July 20th, 2015, 12:34 PM
Where to start (since Jesus did not come to abolish the Law or the Prophets but to fulfill)?

Angel4Truth
July 20th, 2015, 12:37 PM
Please be more specific about what you are asking.

Jacob
July 20th, 2015, 12:40 PM
Whats difficult to understand, if one is a christian they are no longer agnostic (gentile) and no longer a jew (practices judaism), but they are still jewish by lineage, or non jewish (gentile) by lineage.

Correct, spiritually.

Both a nation and a people. Still. Its not finished yet.1 Corinthians 7:18-24 NASB - 18 Was any man called when he was already circumcised? He is not to become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called in uncircumcision? He is not to be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God. 20 Each man must remain in that condition in which he was called. 21 Were you called while a slave? Do not worry about it; but if you are able also to become free, rather do that. 22 For he who was called in the Lord while a slave, is the Lord's freedman; likewise he who was called while free, is Christ's slave. 23 You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men. 24 Brethren, each one is to remain with God in that condition in which he was called.

Ephesians 2:11-22 NASB - 11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands-- 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. 17 AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR; 18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

Angel4Truth
July 20th, 2015, 12:41 PM
1 Corinthians 7:18-24 NASB - 18 Was any man called when he was already circumcised? He is not to become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called in uncircumcision? He is not to be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God. 20 Each man must remain in that condition in which he was called. 21 Were you called while a slave? Do not worry about it; but if you are able also to become free, rather do that. 22 For he who was called in the Lord while a slave, is the Lord's freedman; likewise he who was called while free, is Christ's slave. 23 You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men. 24 Brethren, each one is to remain with God in that condition in which he was called.

Ephesians 2:11-22 NASB - 11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands-- 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. 17 AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR; 18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

Which shows what i said

Jacob
July 20th, 2015, 12:45 PM
Please be more specific about what you are asking.I believe Jesus did not come to abolish the Law or the Prophets, but to fulfill.

Did He fulfill? Yes.

Is there anything left to fulfill? Or, is this now the wrong question to ask, as to fulfill may or may not refer to predictive Biblical prophecy, but to God's Law meaning His commands?

Jacob
July 20th, 2015, 12:46 PM
Which shows what i saidAre those who are circumcised to keep God's Law? What about everyone else?

Ben Masada
July 20th, 2015, 12:46 PM
To the Jewish synagogues throughout the Asia Minor but not by Peter but by Paul. If you read 1 Peter 5:12, the letters were written by Silvanus the scribe of Paul. (II Cor. 1:19; I Thess. 1:1 and II Thess. 2:1) Paul would never allow his scribe to get dictation from an apostle of the circumcision. So, it is only obvious that Paul wrote it and the Fathers of the Church attributed it to Peter. This is sign of an ugly personality.

Angel4Truth
July 20th, 2015, 12:48 PM
I believe Jesus did not come to abolish the Law or the Prophets, but to fulfill.

Did He fulfill? Yes.

Is there anything left to fulfill? Or, is this now the wrong question to ask, as to fulfill may or may not refer to predictive Biblical prophecy, but to God's Law meaning His commands?

There are many prophecies concerning Israel yet to be fulfilled.

Example: Revelation 1:7
"Look, he is coming with the clouds," and "every eye will see him, even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth "will mourn because of him." So shall it be! Amen.

Do you believe this has already happened?

Jacob
July 20th, 2015, 12:50 PM
To the Jewish synagogues throughout the Asia Minor but not by Peter but by Paul. If you read 1 Peter 5:12, the letters were written by Silvanus the scribe of Paul. (II Cor. 1:19; I Thess. 1:1 and II Thess. 2:1) Paul would never allow his scribe to get dictation from an apostle of the circumcision. So, it is only obvious that Paul wrote it and the Fathers of the Church attributed it to Peter. This is sign of an ugly personality.1 Peter was written by Peter, so you are wrong.

1 Peter 1:1-2 NASB - 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

Jacob
July 20th, 2015, 12:52 PM
There are many prophecies concerning Israel yet to be fulfilled.

Example: Revelation 1:7
"Look, he is coming with the clouds," and "every eye will see him, even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth "will mourn because of him." So shall it be! Amen.

Do you believe this has already happened?The early church was Jewish, but even with the partial hardening that Paul talks about, Jews or Israelites have been coming to Christ since the beginning or are now coming to Christ which is something we know for certain even as some did reject Him.

Ben Masada
July 20th, 2015, 01:00 PM
1 Peter was written by Peter, so you are wrong.

1 Peter 1:1-2 NASB - 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

The letters of Peter were written by Paul. You are the one wrong. Peter did not know how to read and write. According to Luke he was an unlearned and ignorant fella. Illiterate people don't write books. (Acts 4:13)

Jacob
July 20th, 2015, 01:03 PM
The letters of Peter were written by Paul. You are the one wrong. Peter did not know how to read and write. According to Luke he was an unlearned and ignorant fella. Illiterate people don't write books. (Acts 4:13)He wrote it or the person who wrote it lied that Peter wrote it. I choose to believe the first option, as he addressed it as from himself.

Ben Masada
July 20th, 2015, 01:06 PM
He wrote it or the person who wrote it lied that Peter wrote it. I choose to believe the first option, as he addressed it as from himself.

What evidence do you have for your choice, your Christian preconceived notions? Such evidence means nothing.

Angel4Truth
July 20th, 2015, 01:07 PM
What evidence do you have for your choice, your Christian preconceived notions? Such evidence means nothing.

You made the initial claim that he didnt write it, the onus is on you to prove your own claim.

Jacob
July 20th, 2015, 01:11 PM
What evidence do you have for your choice, your Christian preconceived notions? Such evidence means nothing.You believe Paul wrote it and I believe Peter wrote it. It is addressed as from Peter. It says it is from Peter.

Jacob
July 20th, 2015, 01:28 PM
The question was who Peter wrote to. That he (Peter) wrote 1 Peter was never in question.

Ben Masada
July 20th, 2015, 01:28 PM
You made the initial claim that he didnt write it, the onus is on you to prove your own claim.

And I proved it. Didn't you read the proof of my assertions? But what's the use in dealing with Christians? They are not interested in proofs which are not according to their Christian preconceived notions.

Ben Masada
July 20th, 2015, 01:33 PM
You believe Paul wrote it and I believe Peter wrote it. It is addressed as from Peter. It says it is from Peter.

Peter did not write any thing. He did not know how to write. Read Luke in Acts 4:13. You believe Peter wrote it because a Catholic Bishop decided it should be his way and not your way.

Jacob
July 20th, 2015, 01:36 PM
Peter did not write any thing. He did not know how to write. Read Luke in Acts 4:13. You believe Peter wrote it because a Catholic Bishop decided it should be his way and not your way.This has nothing to do with anyone who is Catholic.

Why do you believe the letter did not come from Peter?

Ben Masada
July 20th, 2015, 01:36 PM
The question was who Peter wrote to. That he (Peter) wrote 1 Peter was never in question.

It is in question now because this Jew found out what happened by reading it with a scientific mind. But, obviously it is not helping. Faith seems to be stronger than the intellect of some people.

Jacob
July 20th, 2015, 01:38 PM
It is in question now because this Jew found out what happened by reading it with a scientific mind. But, obviously it is not helping. Faith is stronger than intellect in some people.Was it written to Gentiles was the question. The answer is no. You no doubt know this from reading it.

Ben Masada
July 20th, 2015, 01:41 PM
This has nothing to do with anyone who is Catholic.

Why do you believe the letter did not come from Peter?

I have told you more than several times. The letters of Peter were written by the scribe of Paul if you read I Peter 5:12 and, Paul would never allow his scribe to get dictation from an apostle of the circumcision. That's all.

Jacob
July 20th, 2015, 01:43 PM
I have told you more than several times. The letters of Peter were written by the scribe of Paul if you read I Peter 5:12 and, Paul would never allow his scribe to get dictation from an apostle of the circumcision. That's all.You are making assertions.

You are talking about Peter and Paul and a scribe, or rather Paul and a scribe. Do you believe Paul had a scribe who wrote Peter rather than Paul?

Ben Masada
July 20th, 2015, 01:44 PM
Was it written to Gentiles was the question. The answer is no. You no doubt know this from reading it.

Are you doubting the mind of a Jew? If you are, let me know and I will give you the Essay about the Jews by Mark Twain.

Ben Masada
July 20th, 2015, 01:46 PM
You are making assertions.

You are talking about Peter and Paul and a scribe, or rather Paul and a scribe. Do you believe Paul had a scribe who wrote Peter rather than Paul?

That's because you are not reading any thing I give you for evidences. This way we are only wasting the time of each other.

Jacob
July 20th, 2015, 01:46 PM
Are you doubting the mind of a Jew? If you are, let me know and I will give you the Essay about the Jews by Mark Twain.I am doubting that you trust the authorship (that Peter is the author) of this letter.

Jacob
July 20th, 2015, 01:47 PM
That's because you are not reading any thing I give you for evidences. This way we are only wasting the time of each other.I am reading all of your posts to me. I have only wondered if you have read everything in this thread.

Angel4Truth
July 20th, 2015, 01:55 PM
And I proved it. Didn't you read the proof of my assertions? But what's the use in dealing with Christians? They are not interested in proofs which are not according to their Christian preconceived notions.

This is not "proof" :


The letters of Peter were written by Paul. You are the one wrong. Peter did not know how to read and write. According to Luke he was an unlearned and ignorant fella. Illiterate people don't write books. (Acts 4:13)
You assert he couldnt read or write, the verse you quoted also refers to paul in addition to peter, by your assertion, then john was illiterate also. Also look up the word "perceived".

You literally in that post of yours proved what a preconceived notion is, you assume they couldnt read or write, there is no evidence to suggest anything of the sort, other than your own ideas.

the verse you cited as evidence of illiteracy:

Acts 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and untrained men, they marveled. And they realized that they had been with Jesus.

Uneducated also means illiterate in what universe?

turbosixx
July 20th, 2015, 05:54 PM
Righteousness doesn't come by the Law. Is it true that a person could never be saved by observing the Law (OT)?

Peter's problem wasn't that he kept the Law, but that even in that he didn't he would imply to the Gentile either that they were not saved, could not be saved, or were not included among the people of God, in that he withdrew fearing the party of the circumcision... which did compel the Gentiles (believers or unbelievers here?) to live like Jews (which is not a requirement in Christ). The problem was not in living like the Jews, but the hypocrisy of Peter created confusion. Meaning, observing God's Law is fine... but making it appear like you have to be a Jew to be saved or be called among God's people, justified, is communicating the wrong message.

1 Corinthians 7:18 NASB - 18 Was any man called when he was already circumcised? He is not to become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called in uncircumcision? He is not to be circumcised.

So this is my perspective.

Remember what Paul said here?

1 Corinthians 9:16-23 NASB - 16 For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for I am under compulsion; for woe is me if I do not preach the gospel. 17 For if I do this voluntarily, I have a reward; but if against my will, I have a stewardship entrusted to me. 18 What then is my reward? That, when I preach the gospel, I may offer the gospel without charge, so as not to make full use of my right in the gospel. 19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some. 23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.

And here?

Philippians 3:3-16 NASB - 3 for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh, 4 although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless. 7 But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, 9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; 11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you; 16 however, let us keep living by that same standard to which we have attained.

I would suggest your reading way to much into it. The only thing Peter did was revert back to his traditions in that Jews were superior. He was not pushing any other thing from the old law. He was not even pushing this because he didn't make a point of it, he just did it.

12For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof,

Acts 10:28 And he (Peter) said to them, "You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean.

It was very hard for Jews to change after thousands of years of traditions.

Jacob
July 20th, 2015, 05:57 PM
I would suggest your reading way to much into it. The only thing Peter did was revert back to his traditions in that Jews were superior. He was not pushing any other thing from the old law. He was not even pushing this because he didn't make a point of it, he just did it.

12For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof,

Acts 10:28 And he (Peter) said to them, "You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean. I am circumcised, and I do observe kosher. The question I have is if as a believer in Jesus Christ which I have been since a young age, should I or should I not call myself a Gentile? I am a believer. I am a Christian. And I do observe the Sabbath and the Jewish holy days.

Peter was a believer, but when Paul addressed him Paul was maybe addressing what some call hypocrisy. Paul himself (then?) walked orderly keeping the Law.

turbosixx
July 20th, 2015, 06:06 PM
I am circumcised, and I do observe kosher. The question I have is if as a believer in Jesus Christ which I have been since a young age, should I or should I not call myself a Gentile? I am a believer. I am a Christian. And I do observe the Sabbath and the Jewish holy days.

I would suggest to you, you are not a Gentile. You are God's chosen, a descendant of Abraham and you have been circumcised by a circumcision superior to your fleshly one.

Eph. 2:11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands- 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

1 Pt. 2:10 for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God;

Gal. 3:29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

Col. 2:11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;

I would also suggest to you, you don't need to follow the Jewish Holy days.

Jacob
July 20th, 2015, 06:11 PM
I would suggest to you, you are not a Gentile. You are God's chosen, a descendant of Abraham and you have been circumcised by a circumcision superior to your fleshly one.

Eph. 2:11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands- 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

1 Pt. 2:10 for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God;

Gal. 3:29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

Col. 2:11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;

I would also suggest to you, you don't need to follow the Jewish Holy days.Observing these days does not determine a person's salvation.

Colossians 2:16-17 NASB - 16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day-- 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

Hebrews 10:1 NASB - 1 For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near.

Was what was to come Jesus (Yeshua)?

Jacob
July 20th, 2015, 06:12 PM
Hebrews 10:12 NASB - 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,

turbosixx
July 20th, 2015, 06:28 PM
Observing these days does not determine a person's salvation.

Colossians 2:16-17 NASB - 16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day-- 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

Hebrews 10:1 NASB - 1 For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near.

Was what was to come Jesus (Yeshua)?

Yes, Jesus is now Lord and Christ. The physical of the old has been superseded by the spiritual.

19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh,

Rom. 12:1 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.

No longer do we go to a physical temple and offer a physical animal sacrifice, we are the temple and Christ is our sacrifice and so on.

Jacob
July 20th, 2015, 06:32 PM
Yes, Jesus is now Lord and Christ. The physical of the old has been superseded by the spiritual.

19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh,

Rom. 12:1 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.

No longer do we go to a physical temple and offer a physical animal sacrifice, we are the temple and Christ is our sacrifice and so on.Was what was to come still to come after Christ's death?

And was Jesus always Lord and Christ?

turbosixx
July 20th, 2015, 06:34 PM
Observing these days does not determine a person's salvation.

Colossians 2:16-17 NASB - 16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day-- 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.


I agree, observing these things does not affect salvation, but if you will read on, Paul is basically saying, you don't need to observe these.

Col. 3:1 Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.

turbosixx
July 20th, 2015, 06:39 PM
Was what was to come still to come after Christ's death?

And was Jesus always Lord and Christ?

Jesus DBR is everything.

1 Cor. 15:3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

After his DBR we see.

Matt. 28:18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ-this Jesus whom you crucified."

Jacob
July 20th, 2015, 06:42 PM
I agree, observing these things does not affect salvation, but if you will read on, Paul is basically saying, you don't need to observe these.

Col. 3:1 Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. Who doesn't need to observe these?

Salvation is not based on these.

Jacob
July 20th, 2015, 06:43 PM
Jesus DBR is everything.

1 Cor. 15:3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

After his DBR we see.

Matt. 28:18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ-this Jesus whom you crucified." Are you saying Jesus was neither Lord nor Christ when He was born?

turbosixx
July 20th, 2015, 06:45 PM
Who doesn't need to observe these?

Salvation is not based on these.

If you are talking the Jewish holy days, who does need to observe them? For what purpose?

Jacob
July 20th, 2015, 06:50 PM
If you are talking the Jewish holy days, who does need to observe them? For what purpose?Does the nation of Israel and those who find their identity in Israel either as Christians or as Jews or even Messianic Jews?

Which holy days did you think the verse was referring to?

achduke
July 20th, 2015, 06:54 PM
If you are talking the Jewish holy days, who does need to observe them? For what purpose?

Why not learn them? Much prophecy is centered around God's appointed times. I like to learn as much as I can about them. They will also be observed in the future.

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

turbosixx
July 20th, 2015, 07:14 PM
Are you saying Jesus was neither Lord nor Christ when He was born?

I only know what I read. As far as Lord, he is and has always been God. For Christ, which is Greek for Messiah which is anointed one which he has always been, but how could he be the savior before his DBR?

Jacob
July 20th, 2015, 07:15 PM
I only know what I read. As far as Lord, he is and has always been God. For Christ, which is Greek for Messiah which is anointed one which he has always been, but how could he be the savior before his DBR?It was for this purpose that He was sent by God.

turbosixx
July 20th, 2015, 07:15 PM
Does the nation of Israel and those who find their identity in Israel either as Christians or as Jews or even Messianic Jews?

No


Which holy days did you think the verse was referring to?

Just wanted to be clear.

Jacob
July 20th, 2015, 07:17 PM
No

Just wanted to be clear.Do you believe that at some point they were no longer valid?

I know we can learn from them even now.

turbosixx
July 20th, 2015, 07:17 PM
It was for this purpose that He was sent by God.

Agreed, but without his DBR is he the Messiah?

Jacob
July 20th, 2015, 07:17 PM
Agreed, but without his DBR is he the Messiah?Of course.

turbosixx
July 20th, 2015, 07:19 PM
Do you believe that at some point they were no longer valid?

I know we can learn from them even now.

Yes, we can learn from them to better understand the spiritual things, but their observance has been fulfilled and superseded in Christ. There is only one thing I can think of we Christians are to observe.

Jacob
July 20th, 2015, 07:21 PM
Yes, we can learn from them to better understand the spiritual things, but their observance has been fulfilled and superseded in Christ. There is only one thing I can think of we Christians are to observe.I'm not sure what you are answering or responding to.

turbosixx
July 20th, 2015, 07:33 PM
Do you believe that at some point they were no longer valid?

I know we can learn from them even now.

Ok, I'll try again.

I understand they were no longer necessary to observe starting at Pentecost. I believe God tore the veil in the temple to show that no longer does man approach God thru the Holy of Holies but thru Christ. Same with the Holy days, they are like the temple, a physical representation of what we have today spiritually.

Yes, we can learn from them the spiritual implications of what we have in Christ. They are still valid for learning.

Jacob
July 20th, 2015, 07:41 PM
Ok, I'll try again.

I understand they were no longer necessary to observe starting at Pentecost. I believe God tore the veil in the temple to show that no longer does man approach God thru the Holy of Holies but thru Christ. Same with the Holy days, they are like the temple, a physical representation of what we have today spiritually.

Yes, we can learn from them the spiritual implications of what we have in Christ. They are still valid for learning.Are you looking back to that the temple was destroyed, or are you identifying something different? When Paul wrote, it was not destroyed, but Jesus had risen from the dead, ascended to the Father, and the Holy Spirit had been poured out on Jews and Gentiles.

turbosixx
July 20th, 2015, 07:57 PM
Are you looking back to that the temple was destroyed, or are you identifying something different? When Paul wrote, it was not destroyed, but Jesus had risen from the dead, ascended to the Father, and the Holy Spirit had been poured out on Jews and Gentiles.

When Jesus died.

Matt. 27:50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. 51 And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.

Only the HP entered the veil to approach God, now Jesus does it for us.

Jacob
July 20th, 2015, 08:00 PM
When Jesus died.

Matt. 27:50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. 51 And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.

Only the HP entered the veil to approach God, now Jesus does it for us.Was Jesus' death the end of sacrifice? The temple was not destroyed at the time Jesus died.

turbosixx
July 20th, 2015, 08:04 PM
Was Jesus' death the end of sacrifice? The temple was not destroyed at the time Jesus died.

Not necessarily, but once the gospel was proclaimed it was starting to vanish away.

Jacob
July 20th, 2015, 08:07 PM
Not necessarily, but once the gospel was proclaimed it was starting to vanish away.The temple or do you mean the old covenant?

Do you understand what Jeremiah wrote which is explained in the book of Hebrews?

Jeremiah 31:31-34 NASB.

Jesus brought the new covenant. Is the old covenant no longer and when and why did it come to an end if it is no longer?

God's Law, which is associated with the old covenant, is eternal.

Then we need to know about the new covenant.

I don't know if the change of law spoken of in Hebrews deals with the old covenant law or the priesthood or both.

turbosixx
July 20th, 2015, 08:18 PM
The temple or do you mean the old covenant?

Do you understand what Jeremiah wrote which is explained in the book of Hebrews?

Jeremiah 31:31-34 NASB.

Jesus brought the new covenant. Is the old covenant no longer and when and why did it come to an end if it is no longer?

God's Law, which is associated with the old covenant, is eternal.

Then we need to know about the new covenant.

I don't know if the change of law spoken of in Hebrews deals with the old covenant law or the priesthood or both.

Maybe this might help.

Matt. 5:27"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery'; This is one of the ten commandments, the old law, you could look and lust all you want but just don't do the physical act.

28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. The new law, takes it from the physical act to the spiritual act.

Can I lust after a woman and not have physical sex with her and say I am not in violation of God's law? I would not be under the old law but under the law of Christ I am.

The law of Christ is superior in every way. There is zero need to follow the old law and to do so would cause one to fall from grace.

Jacob
July 20th, 2015, 08:43 PM
Maybe this might help.

Matt. 5:27"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery'; This is one of the ten commandments, the old law, you could look and lust all you want but just don't do the physical act.

28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. The new law, takes it from the physical act to the spiritual act.

Can I lust after a woman and not have physical sex with her and say I am not in violation of God's law? I would not be under the old law but under the law of Christ I am.

The law of Christ is superior in every way. There is zero need to follow the old law and to do so would cause one to fall from grace.Are you saying that your view that to think it is sin even before you do it, pertaining to the old law is the same as the law of Christ without the old law?

Jesus observed and taught the Law (and the Prophets). He did not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

turbosixx
July 20th, 2015, 08:55 PM
Are you saying that your view that to think it is sin even before you do it, pertaining to the old law is the same as the law of Christ without the old law?

I don't understand this question.



Jesus observed and taught the Law (and the Prophets). He did not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Yes, because he hadn't established the new.

Fulfill, complete the prophecies.

Luke 4:21 And He began to say to them, "Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing."

Jacob
July 20th, 2015, 09:04 PM
I don't understand this question.




Yes, because he hadn't established the new.

Fulfill, complete the prophecies.Was fulfill in relation to commands? Are there commands of prophecy?

The new covenant does not appear to have a law associated with it.

Romans 2:15 NASB - 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

Deuteronomy 30:10 NASB - 10 if you obey the LORD your God to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this book of the law, if you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and soul.

1 Corinthians 10:11 NASB - 11 Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

Hebrews 10:16 NASB - 16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART, AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM," He then says,

Jeremiah 31:33-34 NASB - 33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 "They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

The question deals with the new covenant and the teaching of Jesus. The phrase law of Christ appears in the New Testament writings twice. But it is not said to be associated with the new covenant, unless somehow by implication that is not apparent to me. So, the Law is spiritual. But did Jesus teach the spiritual aspect or part of the Law? Was what He taught new?

Because Jesus observed and taught the Law. There are spiritual implications to everything in the Law and to everything He taught.

What Jesus taught may be seen as an application of the Law to the heart and to a person's thought life, even before any sinful acts have been committed. That is, there is sin even in a thought.

turbosixx
July 20th, 2015, 09:26 PM
Was fulfill in relation to commands? Are there commands of prophecy?

Luke 4:17 And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book and found the place where it was written,
18 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
Because He anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor.
He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives,
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set free those who are oppressed,
19 To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord."
20 And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21And He began to say to them, "Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing."


The new covenant does not appear to have a law associated with it.

I believe it does but not like what came before. What do we see the apostles teaching the people to observe? The old law or something different. I am not aware of anywhere the apostles taught to observe the old law. Here is what I see:
2 Thes. 2:15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.


The question deals with the new covenant and the teaching of Jesus. The phrase law of Christ appears in the New Testament writings twice. But it is not said to be associated with the new covenant, unless somehow by implication that is not apparent to me. So, the Law is spiritual. But did Jesus teach the spiritual aspect or part of the Law? Was what He taught new? The new law is not new in that we are to love God and our fellow man.



Because Jesus observed and taught the Law. There are spiritual implications to everything in the Law and to everything He taught. I don't believe Jesus taught the law but taught it as it was intended because it's what's inside a man that counts, not just outside.




What Jesus taught may be seen as an application of the Law to the heart and to a person's thought life, even before any sinful acts have been committed. That is, there is sin even in a thought.

I agree.

Jacob
July 20th, 2015, 09:29 PM
Luke 4:17 And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book and found the place where it was written,
18 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
Because He anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor.
He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives,
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set free those who are oppressed,
19 To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord."
20 And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21And He began to say to them, "Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing."



I believe it does but not like what came before. What do we see the apostles teaching the people to observe? The old law or something different. I am not aware of anywhere the apostles taught to observe the old law. Here is what I see:
2 Thes. 2:15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.

The new law is not new in that we are to love God and our fellow man.
These commands are found in the Law.

I don't believe Jesus taught the law but taught it as it was intended because it's what's inside a man that counts, not just outside.
Please read Matthew 5:17-20 NASB.

I agree.

turbosixx
July 20th, 2015, 09:39 PM
These commands are found in the Law.

Please read Matthew 5:17-20 NASB.

17"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.



28After this, Jesus, knowing that all things had already been accomplished, to fulfill the Scripture, said, "I am thirsty."

He came to fulfill and once all was accomplished it was done away with.

Jacob
July 20th, 2015, 09:41 PM
17"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.



28After this, Jesus, knowing that all things had already been accomplished, to fulfill the Scripture, said, "I am thirsty."

He came to fulfill and once all was accomplished it was done away with.I don't know that heaven and earth have passed away and I also don't know what all things had already been accomplished, but I do know these two verses together in my mind to contemplate. I don't know that it was done away with. If it was, then when was it? I believe you are saying when He died.

turbosixx
July 20th, 2015, 09:47 PM
I don't know that heaven and earth have passed away and I also don't know what all things had already been accomplished, but I do know these two verses together in my mind to contemplate. I don't know that it was done away with. If it was, then when was it? I believe you are saying when He died.

Luke 24:45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46 and He said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

This is when I understand the old law was superseded. People, all people were taught a new and living way that could forgive sins.

As you study, notice what the inspired writers are teaching Christians (believers) to do, the old law or something different.

Jacob
July 20th, 2015, 09:52 PM
Luke 24:45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46 and He said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

This is when I understand the old law was superseded. People, all people were taught a new and living way that could forgive sins.

As you study, notice what the inspired writers are teaching Christians (believers) to do, the old law or something different.I know about God's Law and His commands. I have no desire to teach anything different for obedience other than His commands.

Repentance and the forgiveness of sins were before Christ died. Or was not each person who believed in the old covenant saved by the blood of Jesus? Is salvation only for those who have the Spirit of God dwelling in them by faith? This would be after Christ ascended (and when the Spirit was poured out), and possibly not before.

turbosixx
July 20th, 2015, 10:18 PM
Repentance and the forgiveness of sins were before Christ died. Or was not each person who believed in the old covenant saved by the blood of Jesus?

Yes, Jesus' blood cleansed the sins of those before but not before his DBR.

Heb. 11:39 And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.


Is salvation only for those who have the Spirit of God dwelling in them by faith? This would be after Christ ascended (and when the Spirit was poured out), and possibly not before.

Today, only those in Christ are saved.

Jacob
July 20th, 2015, 10:24 PM
Yes, Jesus' blood cleansed the sins of those before but not before his DBR.

Heb. 11:39 And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

Today, only those in Christ are saved.Do you know Romans 8:9 NASB?

turbosixx
July 20th, 2015, 10:30 PM
Do you know Romans 8:9 NASB?

The spirit is not my strongest suite. Still sorting it out.

Jacob
July 20th, 2015, 10:34 PM
The spirit is not my strongest suite. Still sorting it out.
Okay.

Peter and Paul
Peter was told by Jesus about Jesus' church before Paul was a believer.
Paul once confronted Peter.
Did Paul always observe the Law of God?

About the Spirit of God, you know the Spirit of God was poured out on Pentecost and on Gentiles later, with Peter there both times?

Did the Spirit of God dwell in believers in the Old Testament?

Jacob
July 20th, 2015, 10:39 PM
Comparing the new covenant with the old covenant would we say it is more or less? In relation to what? Spiritual content? (difficulty in) Keeping God's commands? Ease in doing what is right?

turbosixx
July 20th, 2015, 10:46 PM
Did Paul always observe the Law of God?

Yes, while he was having Christians put to death, he saw it as following God's law.


About the Spirit of God, you know the Spirit of God was poured out on Pentecost and on Gentiles later, with Peter there both times? Yes


Did the Spirit of God dwell in believers in the Old Testament?

I understand as God needed.

turbosixx
July 20th, 2015, 10:50 PM
Comparing the new covenant with the old covenant would we say it is more or less? In relation to what? Spiritual content? (difficulty in) Keeping God's commands? Ease in doing what is right?

Here is Peter's thoughts on that.

Acts 15:10 Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?

Were Adam and Eve able to bear one rule? It's never easy.

Jacob
July 20th, 2015, 10:52 PM
Yes, while he was having Christians put to death, he saw it as following God's law.

Yes



I understand as God needed.Paul followed God's Law as a believer... yes?

turbosixx
July 20th, 2015, 10:53 PM
Paul followed God's Law as a believer... yes?

Yes

Jacob
July 20th, 2015, 10:55 PM
Here is Peter's thoughts on that.

Acts 15:10 Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?

Were Adam and Eve able to bear one rule? It's never easy.What was Peter talking about? :)

Jacob
July 20th, 2015, 10:57 PM
YesDid Peter? Perhaps he spent time with Gentiles? Is that a violation of the law? Did he eat food that was not kosher (here, clean) food or just spend time with those he once thought were unclean, the Gentiles?

turbosixx
July 20th, 2015, 10:57 PM
What was Peter talking about? :)

5But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses."

turbosixx
July 20th, 2015, 11:06 PM
Did Peter? Perhaps he spent time with Gentiles? Is that a violation of the law? Did he eat food that was not kosher (here, clean) food or just spend time with those he once thought were unclean, the Gentiles?

I'm not sure what your asking or getting at but here it goes.

Acts 10:28 And he said to them, "You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean.

15:7 .... Peter stood up and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

Jacob
July 20th, 2015, 11:07 PM
5But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses." Yes.

Jacob
July 20th, 2015, 11:08 PM
I'm not sure what your asking or getting at but here it goes.

Acts 10:28 And he said to them, "You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean.

15:7 .... Peter stood up and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.Yes.

turbosixx
July 20th, 2015, 11:08 PM
Yes.

Yes what?

turbosixx
July 20th, 2015, 11:10 PM
Yes.

Did they instruct them to observe the law of Moses?

Jacob
July 20th, 2015, 11:10 PM
Yes what?I believe you are saying what Peter was responding to.

Jacob
July 20th, 2015, 11:13 PM
Did they instruct them to observe the law of Moses?
Did ever a believer do this? Probably. But in regard to what you are referring to, I don't believe so. I don't know everything. But maybe the decision that was made was what affected future conversation.

I believe it is okay for an Israelite, a Jew, and a circumcised man, to eat kosher. For that matter a Gentile or an uncircumcised man can eat kosher. It is a decision, not a requirement for Gentiles who become believers.

turbosixx
July 20th, 2015, 11:19 PM
I believe it is okay for an Israelite, a Jew, and a circumcised man, to eat kosher. For that matter a Gentile or an uncircumcised man can eat kosher. It is a decision, not a requirement for Gentiles who become believers.

I think your missing the point.

9and He made no distinction between us and them,

There is no Jew there is no Gentile. No distinction.

Jacob
July 20th, 2015, 11:20 PM
I think your missing the point.

9and He made no distinction between us and them,

There is no Jew there is no Gentile. No distinction.1 Corinthians 7:19 NASB - 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

turbosixx
July 20th, 2015, 11:23 PM
1 Corinthians 7:19 NASB - 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

Eph. 2:14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,

Following the law of Moses is once again dividing. We should not divide what God has joined.

Jacob
July 20th, 2015, 11:25 PM
Eph. 2:14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,

Following the law of Moses is once again dividing. We should not divide what God has joined.We are not talking about divorce here.

Acts 15:7-21 NASB - 7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. 10 "Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 "But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are." 12 All the people kept silent, and they were listening to Barnabas and Paul as they were relating what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles. 13 After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, "Brethren, listen to me. 14 "Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name. 15 "With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written, 16 'AFTER THESE THINGS I will return, AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN, AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS, AND I WILL RESTORE IT, 17 SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD, AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,' 18 SAYS THE LORD, WHO MAKES THESE THINGS KNOWN FROM LONG AGO. 19 "Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, 20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. 21 "For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath."

turbosixx
July 20th, 2015, 11:30 PM
1 Corinthians 7:19 NASB - 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

The NT scriptures are our commandments.

2 Pt. 3:15... just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Jacob
July 20th, 2015, 11:31 PM
The NT scriptures are our commandments.

2 Pt. 3:15... just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.There are at least 1050 commands of God in the New Testament writings.

turbosixx
July 20th, 2015, 11:34 PM
There are at least 1050 commands of God in the New Testament writings.

I didn't know that.

Jacob
July 20th, 2015, 11:34 PM
I didn't know that.Peter does refer to Paul's writings, yes.

Ben Masada
July 20th, 2015, 11:44 PM
I am doubting that you trust the authorship (that Peter is the author) of this letter.

You should doubt Luke who was the one who implied that Peter did not have the ability to write books. (Acts 4:13)

Jacob
July 20th, 2015, 11:45 PM
You should doubt Luke who was the one who implied that Peter did not have the ability to write books. (Acts 4:13)Did you say Peter had a scribe?

Ben Masada
July 20th, 2015, 11:52 PM
I am reading all of your posts to me. I have only wondered if you have read everything in this thread.

It seems to me that you have never been in touch with a Jew. When one takes upon himself to read the NT, it won't take too long for him to learn what you have taken almost all your lifetime to understand. The problem is that Jews in general don't show up here to discuss with Christians is because they consider a waste of their time to spend it with anti-Jewish Theology.

Jacob
July 20th, 2015, 11:53 PM
It seems to me that you have never been in touch with a Jew. When one takes upon himself to read the NT, it won't take too long for him to learn what you have taken almost all your lifetime to understand. The problem is that Jews in general don't show up here to discuss with Christians is because they consider a waste of their time to spend it with anti-Jewish Theology.The Bible is not anti-Jewish Ben Masada. The early church was entirely Jewish. At least in its conception it was.

Ben Masada
July 21st, 2015, 12:34 AM
1 - This is not "proof" :

2 - You assert he couldnt read or write, the verse you quoted also refers to paul in addition to peter, by your assertion, then john was illiterate also. Also look up the word "perceived".

3 - You literally in that post of yours proved what a preconceived notion is, you assume they couldnt read or write, there is no evidence to suggest anything of the sort, other than your own ideas.

4 - the verse you cited as evidence of illiteracy:

5 - Acts 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and untrained men, they marveled. And they realized that they had been with Jesus.

6 - Uneducated also means illiterate in what universe?

1 - Right! I am glad you know that. It is an explanation why Christians cannot accept proofs that go against their Christian preconceived notions.

2 - Not my assertion but Luke's assertion. I was not the one who wrote the book of Acts but Luke. The verse does not refer to Paul but to Peter and John only.

3 - Again: Not my idea but the idea of Luke. You too seem not to understand what we are talking about.

4 - Oh! Finally! It indeed is. Hence Peter and John were illiterate and illiterate people cannot write books.

5 - They who perceived were of those who listened to them and had some acquaintance with them.

6 - In any English dictionary if you have one.

Ben Masada
July 21st, 2015, 12:45 AM
Hebrews 10:12 NASB - 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,

This is absolutely an anti-Jewish statement for two reasons. First because it must be metaphorical to be Jewish and second, Jesus as a Jew, has never returned from the grave to be seated down at the right hand of God in flesh because God is a Spirit and spirits are incorporeal. (John 4:24)

Ben Masada
July 21st, 2015, 01:27 AM
Paul followed God's Law as a believer... yes?

No! Absolutely not. He followed God's Law as a predator follows the victim: To destroy it. If you read Romans 7:9-25, the Law served only to bring death to him. (v.8) Without the Law, Paul could live in sin without any pain of conscience but after he read about the Law, sin revived and caused his life to become unbearable to live since to live meant death to him. (v.9) Somehow, he knew that the Law is spiritual but, what could he do if he was carnal, sold under sin? (v.14) It seemed that Paul had got so accustomed to the way he used to live before that, after he found out from the Law that it was sinful, he started hating to have to live that way but he would do all the same. (v.15) Then he arrived to the conclusion of how sinful was to live that way but he could not change the sinful condition that dwelt in him. (v.17)

What had become an unbearable struggle for Paul was to love God's Law in his mind while serving the law of sin in his flesh. (v.22,23) Therefore, he considered himself a wretched man who could find no deliverance from the body of death that forced him to serve the Law of God in his mind only while serving sin in his flesh. (v. 24,25) All the above is about the famous sinful thorn on the side of Paul. Do you have any idea what could it have been? I can't be more specific here than I have been, and tell you what every thing was about Paul but, one more thing I feel allowed to add. Paul had been born on the wrong time in History. Had he been born today, he would not have to live under such sinful repressed feelings which made his life so miserable.