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CherubRam
July 10th, 2015, 11:07 AM
One God
Joshua 22:22
“The Mighty One, God, the Lord! The Mighty One, God, the Lord! He knows! And let Israel know! If this has been in rebellion or disobedience to the Lord, do not spare us this day.

Psalm 50:1
The Mighty One, God, the Lord, speaks and summons the earth from the rising of the sun to where it sets.

Malachi 2:10
Do we not all have one Father? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our ancestors by being unfaithful to one another?

Malachi 2:15
Has not the one God made you? You belong to him in body and spirit. And what does the one God seek? Godly offspring. So be on your guard, and do not be unfaithful to the wife of your youth.

Romans 3:30
since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Ephesians 4:6
one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

James 2:19
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.


If God was a Trinity, scriptures would say so.

chrysostom
July 10th, 2015, 11:22 AM
If God was a Trinity, scriptures would say so.

who did Jesus pray to?
and
is Jesus God?

jamie
July 10th, 2015, 11:38 AM
Of course God is one, Jesus prayed, "That they all may be one as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be one in Us that the world may believe that You sent Me." (John 17:21 NKJV)

According to Jesus' prayer we are all one in the spiritual unity of them.

E pluribus unum.

Squeaky
July 10th, 2015, 11:52 AM
Jesus said that we have the very same God and the very same Father that He does.

John 20:17
17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.'"
(NKJ)

WonderfulLordJesus
July 10th, 2015, 12:02 PM
Trinity denial. How original. I can tell you're a bright guy. Another fascinating thread.

keypurr
July 10th, 2015, 03:23 PM
Let the truth ring out, the Father is the only true God.

Sherman
July 10th, 2015, 03:26 PM
I will keep my eye on this thread. If the posts start ranging into blasphemy, it will too get locked.

WonderfulLordJesus
July 10th, 2015, 03:34 PM
I will keep my eye on this thread. If the posts start ranging into blasphemy, it will too get locked.

There needs to be a Beating Dead Horses category. Or True Confessions category, for threads like, "I was a teenage Jehovah's Witness."

CherubRam
July 10th, 2015, 05:12 PM
who did Jesus pray to?
and
is Jesus God?
Yahshua prayed to his God, just like we do, and he said that he was a god from heaven.

John 10:36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world?

My God
John 20:17
Jesus said, “Do not cling to me, for I have yet to ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

Revelation 3:2
Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have found your deeds unfinished in the sight of my God.

Revelation 3:12
The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.

CherubRam
July 10th, 2015, 05:17 PM
Of course God is one, Jesus prayed, "That they all may be one as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be one in Us that the world may believe that You sent Me." (John 17:21 NKJV)

According to Jesus' prayer we are all one in the spiritual unity of them.

E pluribus unum.
It is a certainty that Yahshua was speaking of unity when he speaks of being ONE.

John 17:11
I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.


John 17:22
I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one—

meshak
July 10th, 2015, 09:32 PM
Yahshua prayed to his God, just like we do, and he said that he was a god from heaven.

John 10:36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world?

My God
John 20:17
Jesus said, “Do not cling to me, for I have yet to ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

Revelation 3:2
Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have found your deeds unfinished in the sight of my God.

Revelation 3:12
The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.

Well said. Do you see this chrisostom?

Ben Masada
July 10th, 2015, 10:30 PM
Of course God is one, Jesus prayed, "That they all may be one as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be one in Us that the world may believe that You sent Me." (John 17:21 NKJV)

According to Jesus' prayer we are all one in the spiritual unity of them.

E pluribus unum.

You are contradicting yourself Jamie. God cannot be One that way. God is absolutely One no matter what. That's how:

The Absolute Oneness of God.

Isaiah says that, absolutely, God cannot be compared with anyone or anything, as we read Isaiah 46:5. "To whom will ye liken Me, and make Me equal to , or compare Me with, that we may be alike?"

Therefore, more than one God would have been unable to produce the world; one would have impeded the work of the other, unless this could be avoided by a suitable division of labor.

More than one Divine Being would have one element in common, and would differ in another; each would thus consist of two elements, and would not be God.

More than one God are moved to action by will; the will, without a substratum, could not act simultaneously in more than one being.

Therefore, the existence of one God is proved; the existence of more than one God cannot be proved. One could suggest that it would be possible; but since as possibility is inapplicable to God, there does not exist more than one God. So, the possibility of ascertaining the existence of God is here confounded with potentiality of existence.

Again, if one God suffices, a second or third God would be superfluous; if one God is not sufficient, he is not perfect, and cannot be a deity.

Now, besides being God absolutely One, He is incorporeal. If God were corporeal, He would consist of atoms, and would not be one; or he would be comparable to other beings; but a comparison implies the existence of similar and of dissimilar elements, and God would thus not be One. A corporeal God would be finite, and an external power would be required to define those limits.

JFish123
July 14th, 2015, 12:25 PM
One God

Joshua 22:22

“The Mighty One, God, the Lord! The Mighty One, God, the Lord! He knows! And let Israel know! If this has been in rebellion or disobedience to the Lord, do not spare us this day.



Psalm 50:1

The Mighty One, God, the Lord, speaks and summons the earth from the rising of the sun to where it sets.



Malachi 2:10

Do we not all have one Father? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our ancestors by being unfaithful to one another?



Malachi 2:15

Has not the one God made you? You belong to him in body and spirit. And what does the one God seek? Godly offspring. So be on your guard, and do not be unfaithful to the wife of your youth.



Romans 3:30

since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.



1 Corinthians 8:6

yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.



Ephesians 4:6

one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.



1 Timothy 2:5

For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,



James 2:19

You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.





If God was a Trinity, scriptures would say so.


The Bible Does say so. First, There are people who believe the Trinity is from pagan religions :p lol. Well, the pagans believed in a Triad of gods. They were polytheists. That means they believed in three main gods (Triad) who were completely separate beings. And they ruled over the rest of the gods.
The Trinity is 1 God with three persons-The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit that are equal in essence and nature as One God. And they rule over No other gods as there's only one God. Unlike JW where there are at least two (The God and a god) so the Trinity has less gods then The Watchtower. We have One-The Trinity. And the Bible clearly states in the Trinity, so it's not from "outside pagan religions."
For example, Peter refers to the saints who have been chosen "according to the foreknowledge of God The Father." (1 Peter 1:2) when Jesus made a post resurrection appearance to Thomas, the disciple worshipfully responded by addressing Him, "My Lord and MY GOD." (John 20:28) The Father also said of the Son, "Your throne O God, is forever and ever." In Acts 5:3-4, we are told that lying to the Holy Spirit is equivalent to lying to God. Peter said,"Ananias, why has satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit,,, You have not lied to men but to God."
Besides being called God, each of the three persons are seen on different occasions to possess the attributes of deity. Note the following examples:
All three persons possess the attribute of omnipresence:
The Father (1 Kings 8:27)
The Son (Matthew 28:20)
The Holy Spirit (psalm 139:7)
All three have the attribute of omniscience:
The Father (psalm 147:5)
The Son (John 16:30)
The Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:10)
All three have the attribute of omnipotence:
The Father (Psalm 135:6)
The Son (Matthew 28:18)
The Holy Spirit (Romans 15:19)
Holiness is ascribed to each of the three persons:
The Father (Revelation 15:4)
The Son (Acts 3:14)
The Holy Spirit (Romans 1:4)
Eternity is ascribed to each of the three persons:
The Father (Psalm 90:2)
The Son (Micah 5:2, John 1:4)
The Holy Spirit (Hebrews 9:14)
Each if the three persons is described as the Truth:
The Father (John 7:28)
The Son (Revelation 3:7)
The Holy Spirit (1 John 5:6)
Each of the three is called Lord (Luke 2:11, Romans 10:12, 2 Corinthians 3:17) each is called Everlasting (Romans 16:26, Hebrews 9:14, Revelation 22:13) each is called Almighty (Genesis 17:1, Romans 15:19, Revelation 1:8) and each is called Powerful (Jeremiah 32:17, Zechariah 4:6, Hebrews 1:3)
Can any one other than God have the Attributes of God?
In addition to having the attributes of deity, each of the three persons were involved in doing the works of deity. For example, all three were involved in the creation of the world:
The Father (Genesis 2:7, Psalm 102:25, 1 Corinthians 8:6)
The Son (John 1:3, Colossians 1;16, Hebrews 1:2)
The Holy Spirit (Genesis 1:2, Job 33:4, Psalm 104:30)
They were also involved in the incarnation and resurrection but I won't go into those verses as I think these are good for now.
Also to mention, that the pagans taught the concept of a flood that killed most of humankind and the concept of a messiah like figure named Tammuz who was allegedly resurrected. Are those concepts false just because pagans taught remotely similar accounts?
And if you still don't understand the Trinity, does it mean it's not True? I mean do you think it is possible for human beings to know everything about God? If yes, please explain Isaiah 55:8-9, Romans 11:33, and 1 Corinthians 13:12.
We should not reject a doctrine simply because we cannot fully comprehend it. Especially since it's in the Bible :)

CherubRam
July 14th, 2015, 01:44 PM
The Bible Does say so. First, There are people who believe the Trinity is from pagan religions :p lol. Well, the pagans believed in a Triad of gods. They were polytheists. That means they believed in three main gods (Triad) who were completely separate beings. And they ruled over the rest of the gods.
The Trinity is 1 God with three persons-The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit that are equal in essence and nature as One God. And they rule over No other gods as there's only one God. Unlike JW where there are at least two (The God and a god) so the Trinity has less gods then The Watchtower. We have One-The Trinity. And the Bible clearly states in the Trinity, so it's not from "outside pagan religions."
For example, Peter refers to the saints who have been chosen "according to the foreknowledge of God The Father." (1 Peter 1:2) when Jesus made a post resurrection appearance to Thomas, the disciple worshipfully responded by addressing Him, "My Lord and MY GOD." (John 20:28) The Father also said of the Son, "Your throne O God, is forever and ever." In Acts 5:3-4, we are told that lying to the Holy Spirit is equivalent to lying to God. Peter said,"Ananias, why has satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit,,, You have not lied to men but to God."
Besides being called God, each of the three persons are seen on different occasions to possess the attributes of deity. Note the following examples:
All three persons possess the attribute of omnipresence:
The Father (1 Kings 8:27)
The Son (Matthew 28:20)
The Holy Spirit (psalm 139:7)
All three have the attribute of omniscience:
The Father (psalm 147:5)
The Son (John 16:30)
The Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:10)
All three have the attribute of omnipotence:
The Father (Psalm 135:6)
The Son (Matthew 28:18)
The Holy Spirit (Romans 15:19)
Holiness is ascribed to each of the three persons:
The Father (Revelation 15:4)
The Son (Acts 3:14)
The Holy Spirit (Romans 1:4)
Eternity is ascribed to each of the three persons:
The Father (Psalm 90:2)
The Son (Micah 5:2, John 1:4)
The Holy Spirit (Hebrews 9:14)
Each if the three persons is described as the Truth:
The Father (John 7:28)
The Son (Revelation 3:7)
The Holy Spirit (1 John 5:6)
Each of the three is called Lord (Luke 2:11, Romans 10:12, 2 Corinthians 3:17) each is called Everlasting (Romans 16:26, Hebrews 9:14, Revelation 22:13) each is called Almighty (Genesis 17:1, Romans 15:19, Revelation 1:8) and each is called Powerful (Jeremiah 32:17, Zechariah 4:6, Hebrews 1:3)
Can any one other than God have the Attributes of God?
In addition to having the attributes of deity, each of the three persons were involved in doing the works of deity. For example, all three were involved in the creation of the world:
The Father (Genesis 2:7, Psalm 102:25, 1 Corinthians 8:6)
The Son (John 1:3, Colossians 1;16, Hebrews 1:2)
The Holy Spirit (Genesis 1:2, Job 33:4, Psalm 104:30)
They were also involved in the incarnation and resurrection but I won't go into those verses as I think these are good for now.
Also to mention, that the pagans taught the concept of a flood that killed most of humankind and the concept of a messiah like figure named Tammuz who was allegedly resurrected. Are those concepts false just because pagans taught remotely similar accounts?
And if you still don't understand the Trinity, does it mean it's not True? I mean do you think it is possible for human beings to know everything about God? If yes, please explain Isaiah 55:8-9, Romans 11:33, and 1 Corinthians 13:12.
We should not reject a doctrine simply because we cannot fully comprehend it. Especially since it's in the Bible :)

The Pagan trinities are also one God revealed in three persons. There are historical facts showing that the scriptures have been changed to prove a trinity. Trinitarianism is not over peoples heads. If God was a trinity He would have said so, but He says of Himself, that He alone is God. That would exclude any trinity notions. Otherwise He would have said, WE alone are God.

JFish123
July 14th, 2015, 05:30 PM
The Pagan trinities are also one God revealed in three persons. There are historical facts showing that the scriptures have been changed to prove a trinity. Trinitarianism is not over peoples heads. If God was a trinity He would have said so, but He says of Himself, that He alone is God. That would exclude any trinity notions. Otherwise He would have said, WE alone are God.


Well what historical "proof" demonstrates the bible was changed to support a trinity? I gave you dozens of scripture showing the bible promotes a trinity. Were all those scriptures changed then? Cause I have more.

CherubRam
July 14th, 2015, 07:40 PM
Well what historical "proof" demonstrates the bible was changed to support a trinity? I gave you dozens of scripture showing the bible promotes a trinity. Were all those scriptures changed then? Cause I have more.


"The Demonstratio Evangelica" by Eusebius:
Eusebius was the Church historian and Bishop of Caesarea. On page 152 Eusebius quotes the early book of Matthew that he had in his library in Caesarea. According to that eyewitness of an unaltered Book of Matthew that could have been the original book or the first copy of the original of Matthew. Eusebius informs us of Jesus' actual words to his disciples in the original text of Matthew 28:19: "With one word and voice He said to His disciples: "Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all
things whatsover I have commanded you." That "Name" is Jesus.

Eusebius was the Bishop of Caesarea and is known as “the Father of Church History.” Eusebius quotes many verses in his writings, and Matthew 28:19 is one of them. He never quotes it as it is today in our modern Bibles, but he always finishes the verse with the words “in my name.” For example, in Book III of his History, Chapter 5, Section 2, which is about the Jewish persecution of early Christians, we read:
But the rest of the apostles, who had been incessantly plotted against with a view to their destruction, and had been driven out of the land of Judea, went to all nations to preach the Gospel, relying upon the power of Christ, who had said to them, “Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in my name.”

And again, in his Oration in Praise of Emperor Constantine, Chapter 16, Section 8, we read:
What king or prince in any age of the world, what philosopher, legislator or prophet, in civilized or barbarous lands, has attained so great a height of excellence, I say not after death, but while living still, and full of mighty power, as to fill the ears and tongues of all mankind with the praises of his name? Surely none save our only Savior has done this, when, after his victory over death, he spoke these words to his followers, and fulfilled it by that event, saying to them, “Go ye and make disciples of all nations in my name.”

CherubRam
July 14th, 2015, 07:41 PM
Trinity
In the fourth-century, Marcellus of Ancyra declared that the idea of the Godhead existing as three hypostases came from Plato, through the teachings of Valentinus. Valentinus is quoted as teaching that God is three, three prosopa (persons) called the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit:

These men also taught three hypostases, just as Valentinus the heresiarch first invented in the book entitled by him 'On the Three Natures'. It was believed he was the first to invent three hypostases and three persons of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but he was discovered to have taken this from Hermes and Plato.

Valentinus (also spelled Valentinius) (c.100 - c.160) was known as a early Christian Gnostic Theologian.

It should be noted that Nag Hammadi library Sethian text such as Trimorphic Protennoia identify Gnosticism as also professing Father, Son and feminine wisdom Sophia or as Professor John D Turner denotes, God the Father, Sophia the Mother, and Logos the Son.

CherubRam
July 14th, 2015, 07:44 PM
NIV 1 John 5
6 This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7 For there are three that testify: 8 the[See a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

NIV Footnotes:
a.1 John 5:8 Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the fourteenth century)

KJV 1 John 5:6
This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ: not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit which testifieth, that Christ is the truth. 7And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.

1 John 5:7 implicitly states that all THREE are ONE.

This is the only verse in the Bible that explicitly states that all three persons are one.
Unfortunately, it was added to that verse.
No earlier version includes that last phrase about them being one.

The first 2 additions of Erasmus' master Greek text did not have this.
Stunica (a Catholic authority) demanded that he include the phrase.
Erasmus told Stunica that if he could provide one Greek manuscript with that phrase, he would include it.
But no Greek manuscripts up to that time had it.
Only Latin manuscripts had it. So Stunica had a Greek manuscript made up from the Latin and forced Erasmus to include it.

In 1514, before Erasmus had even begun to edit his text, but its publication was delayed until 1522, until permission of Pope Leo X had finally been obtained for it.

"The supreme Pontiff Leo X, Our Most Holy Father in Christ and Lord, desiring to favour this undertaking, sent from the apostolic library."

This claim seems to have been accepted by all at that time.
In view of its inclusion in the Clementine edition of the Latin Vulgate (1592), in 1897 the Holy Office in Rome, a high ecclesiastical congregation, made an authoritative pronouncement, approved and confirmed by Pope Leo XIII, that it is not safe to deny that this verse is an authentic part of St. John's Epistle."

CherubRam
July 14th, 2015, 07:45 PM
1 Timothy 3:16 Holman bible foot note. Other mss read God
1 Timothy 3:16 NIV foot note. Some manuscripts God

1 Timothy 3:16 (New International Version)
16Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great:
He(a) appeared in a body,(b)
was vindicated by the Spirit,
was seen by angels,
was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory.

Footnotes:
a. 1 Timothy 3:16 Some manuscripts God
b. 1 Timothy 3:16 Or in the flesh






1 John 3:16 In this we have known the charity of God, because he hath laid down his life for us:...

The words (of God) are not in the original text of 1 John 3:16, but have been added.

CherubRam
July 14th, 2015, 07:49 PM
The list goes on and on. Trinitarianism is a falsehood. By the way, the scriptures you are quoting are not all trinity proof text.

JFish123
July 14th, 2015, 08:26 PM
"The Demonstratio Evangelica" by Eusebius:

Eusebius was the Church historian and Bishop of Caesarea. On page 152 Eusebius quotes the early book of Matthew that he had in his library in Caesarea. According to that eyewitness of an unaltered Book of Matthew that could have been the original book or the first copy of the original of Matthew. Eusebius informs us of Jesus' actual words to his disciples in the original text of Matthew 28:19: "With one word and voice He said to His disciples: "Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all

things whatsover I have commanded you." That "Name" is Jesus.



Eusebius was the Bishop of Caesarea and is known as “the Father of Church History.” Eusebius quotes many verses in his writings, and Matthew 28:19 is one of them. He never quotes it as it is today in our modern Bibles, but he always finishes the verse with the words “in my name.” For example, in Book III of his History, Chapter 5, Section 2, which is about the Jewish persecution of early Christians, we read:

But the rest of the apostles, who had been incessantly plotted against with a view to their destruction, and had been driven out of the land of Judea, went to all nations to preach the Gospel, relying upon the power of Christ, who had said to them, “Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in my name.”



And again, in his Oration in Praise of Emperor Constantine, Chapter 16, Section 8, we read:

What king or prince in any age of the world, what philosopher, legislator or prophet, in civilized or barbarous lands, has attained so great a height of excellence, I say not after death, but while living still, and full of mighty power, as to fill the ears and tongues of all mankind with the praises of his name? Surely none save our only Savior has done this, when, after his victory over death, he spoke these words to his followers, and fulfilled it by that event, saying to them, “Go ye and make disciples of all nations in my name.”


Eusebius you quote about how he always used "in my name."
Eusebius lived between 263 AD – 339 AD. If the Trinity was "invented," then how can Christians BEFORE Eusebius used the Trinity?
There is plenty of evidence from the writings of the early Church Fathers, from the disciples of the Apostles and their subsequent successors, that this Trinitarian formula was being used long before Nicea and that it formed part of the Gospel of Matthew. In fact, this command was so well known that many writers alluded to it without naming the specific Gospel from which they were quoting. What this shows is that these Christians assumed that their readers were so familiar with this formula, and already knew in which of the four Gospels this instruction could be found, that they didn’t feel the need to specify the source.
We will look at just a few of examples from these early Christian writings, all of which predate the Council of Nicea.
Ignatius of Antioch (ca. AD. 107-112)
"Until He come for whom it is reserved, and He shall be the expectation of the Gentiles," have been fulfilled in the Gospel, [our Lord saying,] "Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of THE FATHER, AND OF THE SON, AND OF THE HOLY GHOST." All then are good together, the law, the prophets, the apostles, the whole company [of others] that have believed through them: only if we love one another. (Epistle of Ignatius to the Philadelphians)
Wherefore also the Lord, when He sent forth the apostles to make disciples of all nations, commanded them to "baptize IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, AND OF THE SON, AND OF THE HOLY GHOST," not unto one [person] having three names, nor into three [persons] who became incarnate, but into three possessed of equal honour. (Epistle of Ignatius to the Philippians)
Irenaeus (ca. 130-200)
And again, giving to the disciples the power of regeneration into God, He said to them, "Go and teach all nations, baptizing them IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, AND OF THE SON, AND OF THE HOLY GHOST." (Irenaeus Against Heresies Book III)
Tertullian (ca. 160-220)
… Accordingly, after one of these had been struck off, He commanded the eleven others, on His departure to the Father, to "go and teach all nations, who were to be baptized INTO THE FATHER, AND INTO THE SON, AND INTO THE HOLY GHOST." Immediately, therefore, so did the apostles, whom this designation indicates as "the sent."
(Tertullian, The Prescription Against Heretics)
"...make the paths straight" for the Holy Spirit, who is about to come upon us, by the washing away of sins, which faith, sealed in (the name of) THE FATHER AND THE SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT, obtains."
(Tertullian, On Baptism)

Sorry bro, but your claim does not add up to History of the True Christian Faith.

JFish123
July 14th, 2015, 08:42 PM
Trinity

In the fourth-century, Marcellus of Ancyra declared that the idea of the Godhead existing as three hypostases came from Plato, through the teachings of Valentinus. Valentinus is quoted as teaching that God is three, three prosopa (persons) called the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit:



These men also taught three hypostases, just as Valentinus the heresiarch first invented in the book entitled by him 'On the Three Natures'. It was believed he was the first to invent three hypostases and three persons of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but he was discovered to have taken this from Hermes and Plato.



Valentinus (also spelled Valentinius) (c.100 - c.160) was known as a early Christian Gnostic Theologian.



It should be noted that Nag Hammadi library Sethian text such as Trimorphic Protennoia identify Gnosticism as also professing Father, Son and feminine wisdom Sophia or as Professor John D Turner denotes, God the Father, Sophia the Mother, and Logos the Son.


So the Bible calls The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit, all God, who not only have All the attributes of God but also do all the works of God, yet somehow there not God? And you believe a 4th century man and what he tells you about where he believes the Trinity came from instead of the Bible which States it? Of course Valentinus believed in the Trinity, as I quoted in my other post to you, SO DID THE OTHER CHURCH LEADERS AND SCHOLARS :) as well as the Bible itself

JFish123
July 14th, 2015, 09:00 PM
"The Demonstratio Evangelica" by Eusebius:

Eusebius was the Church historian and Bishop of Caesarea. On page 152 Eusebius quotes the early book of Matthew that he had in his library in Caesarea. According to that eyewitness of an unaltered Book of Matthew that could have been the original book or the first copy of the original of Matthew. Eusebius informs us of Jesus' actual words to his disciples in the original text of Matthew 28:19: "With one word and voice He said to His disciples: "Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all

things whatsover I have commanded you." That "Name" is Jesus.



Eusebius was the Bishop of Caesarea and is known as “the Father of Church History.” Eusebius quotes many verses in his writings, and Matthew 28:19 is one of them. He never quotes it as it is today in our modern Bibles, but he always finishes the verse with the words “in my name.” For example, in Book III of his History, Chapter 5, Section 2, which is about the Jewish persecution of early Christians, we read:

But the rest of the apostles, who had been incessantly plotted against with a view to their destruction, and had been driven out of the land of Judea, went to all nations to preach the Gospel, relying upon the power of Christ, who had said to them, “Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in my name.”



And again, in his Oration in Praise of Emperor Constantine, Chapter 16, Section 8, we read:

What king or prince in any age of the world, what philosopher, legislator or prophet, in civilized or barbarous lands, has attained so great a height of excellence, I say not after death, but while living still, and full of mighty power, as to fill the ears and tongues of all mankind with the praises of his name? Surely none save our only Savior has done this, when, after his victory over death, he spoke these words to his followers, and fulfilled it by that event, saying to them, “Go ye and make disciples of all nations in my name.”


I'll also add these while I'm at it...
The early church also believed in a Trinity.
150 AD Justin Martyr: "The Father of the universe has a Son, who also being the first begotten Word of God, is even God." (Justin Martyr, First Apology, ch 63)
150 AD Justin Martyr "Christ is called both God and Lord of hosts." (Dialogue with Trypho, ch, 36)
150 AD Justin Martyr quotes Hebrews 1:8 to prove the Deity of Christ. "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever." (Dialogue with Trypho, ch 56)
150 AD Justin Martyr "Therefore these words testify explicitly that He [Christ] is witnessed to by Him who established these things, as deserving to be worshipped, as God and as Christ." - Dialogue with Trypho, ch. 63.
150 AD Polycarp of Smyrna

150 AD Polycarp of Smyrna "I praise you for all things, I bless you, I glorify you, along with the everlasting and heavenly Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, with whom, to you and the Holy Spirit, be glory both now and to all coming ages. Amen" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 14).

160 AD Mathetes
Same glory for all three persons Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
160 AD Mathetes "[The Father] sent the Word that he might be manifested to the world . . . This is he who was from the beginning, who appeared as if new, and was found old . . . This is he who, being from everlasting, is today called the Son" (Letter to Diognetus 11).
Jesus as from "everlasting" means He always existed.

170 AD Tatian the Syrian
170 AD Tatian the Syrian "We are not playing the fool, you Greeks, nor do we talk nonsense, when we report that God was born in the form of a man" (Address to the Greeks 21).

180 AD Irenaeus "Christ Jesus is our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King." (Against Heresies, Book I, ch. 10, section 1)

JFish123
July 14th, 2015, 09:02 PM
The list goes on and on. Trinitarianism is a falsehood. By the way, the scriptures you are quoting are not all trinity proof text.


And to finish it off, showing scripturally Jesus is God...
A Comparison of YHWY and JESUS to Show There Same Identity
Description as YHWY (I AM)
As used of YHWY:
Exodus 3:14
Deuteronomy 32:39
Isaiah 43:10
As used of JESUS:
John 8:24
John 8:58
John 18:4-6
Description as God
As used of YHWY:
Genesis 1:1
Deuteronomy 6:4
Psalm 45:6-7
As used of JESUS:
Isaiah 7:14, 9:6
John 1:1, 1:14
John 20:28
Titus 2:13
Hebrews 1:8
2 Peter 1:1
Description as Alpha and Omega
As used of YHWY:
Isaiah 41:4
Isaiah 48:12
Revelation 1:8
As used of JESUS:
Revelation 1:17-18
Revelation 2:8
Revelation 22:12-16
Description as Lord
As used by YHWY:
Isaiah 45:23
As used by JESUS:
Matthew 12:8
Acts 7:59-60
Acts 10:36
Romans 10:12
1 Corinthians 2:8, 12:3
Philippians 2:10-11
Description as Savior
As used by YHWY:
Isaiah 43:3, 43:11, 63:8
Luke 1:47
1 Timothy 4:10
As Used of JESUS:
Matthew 1:21
Luke 2:11
John 1:29
John 4:42
Titus 2:13
Hebrews 5:9
Description as King
As used of YHWY:
Psalm 95:3
Isaiah 43:15
1 Timothy 6:14-16
As used of JESUS:
Revelation 17:14
Revelation 19:16
Description as Judge
As used of YHWY:
Genesis 18:25
Psalm 50:4,6
Psalm 96:13
Romans 14:10
As used of JESUS:
John 5:22
2 Corinthians 5:10
2 Timothy 4:1
Description as Light
As used of YHWY:
2 Samuel 22:29
Psalm 27:1
Isaiah 42:6
As used if JESUS:
John 1:4,9
John 3:19
John 8:12
John 9:5
Description as Rock
As used if YHWY:
Deuteronomy 32:3-4
2 Samuel 22:32
Psalm 89:26
As used of JESUS:
Romans 9:33
1 Corinthians 10:3-4
1 Peter 2:4-8
Description as Redeemer
As used of YHWY:
Psalm 130:7-8
Isaiah 48:17
Isaiah 54:5
Isaiah 63:9
As used if JESUS:
Acts 20:28
Ephesians 1:7
Hebrews 9:12
Description as Our Righteousness
As used of YHWY:
Isaiah 45:24
As used of JESUS:
Jeremiah 23:6
Romans 3:21-22
Description as Husband
As used if YHWY:
Isaiah 54:5
Hosea 2:16
As used of JESUS:
Matthew 25:1
Mark 2:18-19
2 Corinthians 11:2
Ephesians 5:25-32
Revelation 21:2, 9
Description as Shepherd
As used if YHWY:
Genesis 49:24
Psalm 23:1
Psalm 80:1
As used of JESUS:
John 10:11,16
Hebrews 13:20
1 Peter 2:25
1 Peter 5:4
Description as Creator
As used of YHWY:
Genesis 1:1
Job 33:4
Psalm 95:5-6
Psalm 102:25-26
Isaiah 40:28
As used of JESUS:
John 1:2-3, 10
Colossians 1:15-18
Hebrews 1:1-3, 10
Description a Giver of Life
As used of YHWY:
Genesis 2:7
Deuteronomy 32:39
1 Samuel 2:6
Psalm 36:9
As used of JESUS:
John 5:21
John 10:28
John 11:25
Description as Forgiver is sin
As used of YHWY:
Exodus 34:6-7
Nehemiah 9:17
Daniel 9:9
Jonah 4:2
As used of JESUS:
Mark 2:1-12
Acts 26:18
Colossians 2:13, 3:13
Description as Lord Our Healer
As used of YHWY:
Exodus 15:25
As used of JESUS:
Acts 9:34
Description as Omnipresent
As used of YHWY:
Psalm 139:7-12
Proverbs 15:3
As used of JESUS:
Matthew 18:20
Matthew 28:20
Ephesians 3:17, 4:10
Description a Omniscient
As used of YHWY:
1 Kings 8:39
Jeremiah 17:9-10, 16
As used of JESUS:
Matthew 11:27
Luke 5:4-6
John 2:25
John 16:30
John 21:18
Acts 1:24
Description as Omnipotent
As used of YHWH:
Isaiah 40:10-31
Isaiah 45:5-13
As used of JESUS:
Matthew 28:18
Mark 1:29-34
John 10:18
Jude 24
Description as Preexistent
As used of YHWY:
Genesis 1:1
As used of JESUS:
John 1:15, 30
John 3:13, 31-32
John 6:62
John 16:28
John 17:5
Description as Eternal
As used of YHWY:
Psalm 102:26-27
Habakkuk 3:6
As used of JESUS:
Isaiah 9:6
Micah 5:2
John 8:58
Description as Unchanging
As used of YHWY:
Isaiah 46:9, 16
Malachi 3:6
James 1:17
As used if JESUS:
Hebrews 12:8
Description as Receiver of Worship
As used of YHWY:
Matthew 4:10
John 4:24
Revelation 5:14
Revelation 7:11
Revelation 11:16
As used of JESUS:
Matthew 14:33
Matthew 28:9
John 9:38
Philippians 2:10-11
Hebrews 1:6
Description as Speaker with Divine Authority
As used by YHWY:
"Thus says The Lord..." Used hundreds of times
As used by JESUS:
"Truly, truly, I say..."
Matthew 23:34-37
John 7:46

CherubRam
July 15th, 2015, 12:04 AM
And to finish it off, showing scripturally Jesus is God...
A Comparison of YHWY and JESUS to Show There Same Identity
Description as YHWY (I AM)
As used of YHWY:


I see that you are not playing with a full deck. You will need to find some one else to talk to. Bye.

JFish123
July 15th, 2015, 12:24 AM
I see that you are not playing with a full deck. You will need to find some one else to talk to. Bye.

I apologize if my arguments are too Truthful to debate against but Hopefully I pray you'll see the Light by the power of the Holy Spirit.

1Mind1Spirit
July 15th, 2015, 12:51 AM
I apologize if my arguments are too Truthful to debate against but Hopefully I pray you'll see the Light by the power of the Holy Spirit.

You might wanna listen up now.

Clement the Bishop of Rome, who wrote his letter in the early 90's made no mention of a trinity.

But instead chastised those who were infiltrating the church at Corinth.

That be those you listed who gave no indication where they were getting their scriptural support.

Now what Cherub Ram posted is historical proof of where Eusebius got his scriptural support.

Insinuating everybody should just believe those other guys was a dazzling display of brilliant light.......NOT.

:rip:

JFish123
July 15th, 2015, 01:02 AM
You might wanna listen up now.



Clement the Bishop of Rome, who wrote his letter in the early 90's made no mention of a trinity.



But instead chastised those who were infiltrating the church at Corinth.



That be those you listed who gave no indication where they were getting their scriptural support.



Now what Cherub Ram posted is historical proof of where Eusebius got his scriptural support.



Insinuating everybody should just believe those other guys was a dazzling display of brilliant light.......NOT.



:rip:


And they got there's from the scriptures themselves. As for Clement of Rome...
Clement of Rome wrote a letter to the church at Corinth around A.D. 96. In this letter, he explains God in terms compatible with the doctrine of the Trinity. He writes, "Do we not have one God, one Christ, one Spirit of grace which was poured out on us?" (Cyril Richardson, Early Christian Fathers, New York: The Macmillan Co., 1970, p. 65). Clement also writes, "For as God lives, and as the Lord Jesus Christ lives and the Holy Spirit (on whom the elect believe and hope) . . . " (Ibid., p. 70). In addition, the Trinitarian formula of Matthew 28:19 is quoted twice in The Didache, a church manual written around A.D. 90-100.

Ignatius of Antioch wrote several letters before his death in A.D. 117. He affirmed both the humanity and deity of Jesus Christ in his letter to the Ephesians. "The source of your unity and election is genuine suffering which you undergo by the will of the Father and of Jesus Christ, our God" (Ibid., pp. 87-88). In the same letter he also writes, "There is only one physician-of flesh yet spiritual, born yet unbegotten, God incarnate, genuine life in the midst of death, sprung from Mary as well as God, first subject to suffering then beyond it-Jesus Christ our Lord" (Ibid., p. 90). In his letter to the Romans, Ignatius also refers to Jesus Christ as "our God" (Ibid., p. 103). Another early Christian named Justin wrote his First Apology about A.D. 155. In this writing, he declared that the Son is divine (Ibid., p. 285).
Sorry but the Truth wins Everytime.

Also some more BIBLICAL Proof for you:
The Bible recognizes the Father as God. Psalm 89:26 (NIV) says, "He will call out to me, 'You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Savior.'" Peter in his first epistle writes, "who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father" (1 Pet. 1:2, NIV; see also Matt. 6:9; 7:11; Rom. 8:15; 1 Pet. 1:17).

The Bible calls Jesus (the Son) God. John 1:1 (NIV) says Jesus is God, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." The phrase "the Word was God" cannot legitimately be translated "the word was a god" as do the Jehovah's Witnesses in their New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures (New York: Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1984). The lack of the definite article in the Greek text simply identifies the word God as the predicate of the sentence. The claim by Jehovah's Witnesses that it indicates that Jesus is an inferior deity to the Father is false. Such a claim is not only contrary to Greek grammar but would have been unthinkable to a first century Jew. The Jehovah's Witness position actually advocates a form of polytheism that consists of a big god and a little god.

When Thomas addresses Jesus as "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28, NIV), Jesus does not correct him. Paul and Barnabas act very differently when the people of Lystra start giving them divine homage in Acts 14:8- 18. They go to great lengths to convince the people they are not divine beings. According to John in the book of Revelation, the angel that he started worshiping also refused to accept divine obeisance. The angel insisted that John stop and said, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God" (Rev. 19:10, NIV)!

Titus 2:13 (NIV) declares that Jesus Christ is God, "We wait for the blessed hope-the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ." It is very difficult to understand how this passage could refer to the appearing of the Father since John 1:18 (NIV) says, "No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known." Titus 2:13 indicates that Jesus Christ is both God and Savior. This same truth is also taught in 2 Peter 1:1 (NIV) where Jesus Christ is called "our God and Savior." These passages declare that Jesus Christ is truly God.

The writer of Hebrews, quoting Psalm 45:6 says, "But about the Son he says, 'Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom'" (Heb. 1:8, NIV). In Hebrews 1:10, the writer quotes Psalm 102:24-25, a passage referring to God, and applies it to the Son. The inspired writer of Hebrews therefore identifies the Son as God.

The Bible identifies the Holy Spirit as God. Peter refers to the Holy Spirit as God in Acts 5:3-4 (NIV) "Then Peter said, 'Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit? . . . You have not lied to men but to God.'" The Bible describes the Holy Spirit as having attributes that only belong to God (Ps. 139:7-13; Luke 1:35; Rom. 15:19; 1Cor. 2:10; Heb. 9:14). The Holy Spirit does the work of God (Gen. 1:26-27; Job 33:4; John 3:5-6; Acts 16: 6- 7,10; Rom. 1:4; 1 Pet. 3:18; 2 Pet. 1:21). He also receives honor due only to God (Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14).

1Mind1Spirit
July 15th, 2015, 01:24 AM
And they got there's from the scriptures themselves. As for Clement of Rome...
Clement of Rome wrote a letter to the church at Corinth around A.D. 96. In this letter, he explains God in terms compatible with the doctrine of the Trinity. He writes, "Do we not have one God, one Christ, one Spirit of grace which was poured out on us?" (Cyril Richardson, Early Christian Fathers, New York: The Macmillan Co., 1970, p. 65). Clement also writes, "For as God lives, and as the Lord Jesus Christ lives and the Holy Spirit (on whom the elect believe and hope) . . . " (Ibid., p. 70). In addition, the Trinitarian formula of Matthew 28:19 is quoted twice in The Didache, a church manual written around A.D. 90-100..

This is in no wise trinity speech.

As far as yer church's Didache, you really gotta be kiddin'.

Written 90-100.

First line is a bald faced lying impossibility.

The first line of this treatise is "Teaching of the Lord to the Gentiles (or Nations) by the Twelve Apostles"

Woulda been mighty hard for the Apostle James, John's brother to have been in on that.

Since he was martyred by Herod about 50 to 60 years earlier.

When this great work was supposedly written there were only 11 Apostles.

Not only that Clement said Peter and Paul were already dead by the time of his epistle.

The rest of yer Catholic heretics fall right in line with those Clement was exposing.

C'mon man yer makin' this too easy.

JFish123
July 15th, 2015, 01:44 AM
This is in no wise trinity speech.

As far as yer church's Didache, you really gotta be kiddin'.

Written 90-100.

First line is a bald faced lying impossibility.

The first line of this treatise is "Teaching of the Lord to the Gentiles (or Nations) by the Twelve Apostles"

Woulda been mighty hard for the Apostle James, John's brother to have been in on that.

Since he was martyred by Herod about 50 to 60 years earlier.

When this great work was supposedly written there were only 11 Apostles.

Not only that Clement said Peter and Paul were already dead by the time of his epistle.

The rest of yer Catholic heretics fall right in line with those Clement was exposing.

C'mon man yer makin' this too easy.

The Didache is also called the "Teaching of the Twelve Apostles." Some say it was 90-100 and others date it to be written around 65 - 80 A.D. Either way, it's supposed to be what the twelve apostles taught to the Gentiles concerning life and death, church order, fasting, baptism, prayer, etc. so it wasn't written by them but what they taught. That's the issue :) And this is just one evidence in the multitude I showed through early church history, and the Bible :) This work (Didache) is cited by Eusebius who lived from 260 - 341 and Athanasius 293-373. It seems to be referenced by Origen who lived from 185-254. In the Didache, 16:2-3 is quoted in the Epistle of Barnabas in 4:9, or vice versa.1 The Epistle of Barnabas was written in 130-131 A.D. The Didache is not inspired, but is valuable as an early church document.
So Any thoughts on all the scripture that Proves my point as well?

daqq
July 15th, 2015, 02:01 AM
And to finish it off, showing scripturally Jesus is God...
A Comparison of YHWY and JESUS to Show There Same Identity
Description as YHWY (I AM)
As used of YHWY:
Exodus 3:14
Deuteronomy 32:39
Isaiah 43:10
As used of JESUS:
John 8:24
John 8:58
John 18:4-6
Description as God
As used of YHWY:
Genesis 1:1
Deuteronomy 6:4
Psalm 45:6-7
As used of JESUS:
Isaiah 7:14, 9:6
John 1:1, 1:14
John 20:28
Titus 2:13
Hebrews 1:8
2 Peter 1:1
Description as Alpha and Omega
As used of YHWY:
Isaiah 41:4
Isaiah 48:12
Revelation 1:8
As used of JESUS:
Revelation 1:17-18
Revelation 2:8
Revelation 22:12-16
Description as Lord
As used by YHWY:
Isaiah 45:23
As used by JESUS:
Matthew 12:8
Acts 7:59-60
Acts 10:36
Romans 10:12
1 Corinthians 2:8, 12:3
Philippians 2:10-11
Description as Savior
As used by YHWY:
Isaiah 43:3, 43:11, 63:8
Luke 1:47
1 Timothy 4:10
As Used of JESUS:
Matthew 1:21
Luke 2:11
John 1:29
John 4:42
Titus 2:13
Hebrews 5:9
Description as King
As used of YHWY:
Psalm 95:3
Isaiah 43:15
1 Timothy 6:14-16
As used of JESUS:
Revelation 17:14
Revelation 19:16
Description as Judge
As used of YHWY:
Genesis 18:25
Psalm 50:4,6
Psalm 96:13
Romans 14:10
As used of JESUS:
John 5:22
2 Corinthians 5:10
2 Timothy 4:1
Description as Light
As used of YHWY:
2 Samuel 22:29
Psalm 27:1
Isaiah 42:6
As used if JESUS:
John 1:4,9
John 3:19
John 8:12
John 9:5
Description as Rock
As used if YHWY:
Deuteronomy 32:3-4
2 Samuel 22:32
Psalm 89:26
As used of JESUS:
Romans 9:33
1 Corinthians 10:3-4
1 Peter 2:4-8
Description as Redeemer
As used of YHWY:
Psalm 130:7-8
Isaiah 48:17
Isaiah 54:5
Isaiah 63:9
As used if JESUS:
Acts 20:28
Ephesians 1:7
Hebrews 9:12
Description as Our Righteousness
As used of YHWY:
Isaiah 45:24
As used of JESUS:
Jeremiah 23:6
Romans 3:21-22
Description as Husband
As used if YHWY:
Isaiah 54:5
Hosea 2:16
As used of JESUS:
Matthew 25:1
Mark 2:18-19
2 Corinthians 11:2
Ephesians 5:25-32
Revelation 21:2, 9
Description as Shepherd
As used if YHWY:
Genesis 49:24
Psalm 23:1
Psalm 80:1
As used of JESUS:
John 10:11,16
Hebrews 13:20
1 Peter 2:25
1 Peter 5:4
Description as Creator
As used of YHWY:
Genesis 1:1
Job 33:4
Psalm 95:5-6
Psalm 102:25-26
Isaiah 40:28
As used of JESUS:
John 1:2-3, 10
Colossians 1:15-18
Hebrews 1:1-3, 10
Description a Giver of Life
As used of YHWY:
Genesis 2:7
Deuteronomy 32:39
1 Samuel 2:6
Psalm 36:9
As used of JESUS:
John 5:21
John 10:28
John 11:25
Description as Forgiver is sin
As used of YHWY:
Exodus 34:6-7
Nehemiah 9:17
Daniel 9:9
Jonah 4:2
As used of JESUS:
Mark 2:1-12
Acts 26:18
Colossians 2:13, 3:13
Description as Lord Our Healer
As used of YHWY:
Exodus 15:25
As used of JESUS:
Acts 9:34
Description as Omnipresent
As used of YHWY:
Psalm 139:7-12
Proverbs 15:3
As used of JESUS:
Matthew 18:20
Matthew 28:20
Ephesians 3:17, 4:10
Description a Omniscient
As used of YHWY:
1 Kings 8:39
Jeremiah 17:9-10, 16
As used of JESUS:
Matthew 11:27
Luke 5:4-6
John 2:25
John 16:30
John 21:18
Acts 1:24
Description as Omnipotent
As used of YHWH:
Isaiah 40:10-31
Isaiah 45:5-13
As used of JESUS:
Matthew 28:18
Mark 1:29-34
John 10:18
Jude 24
Description as Preexistent
As used of YHWY:
Genesis 1:1
As used of JESUS:
John 1:15, 30
John 3:13, 31-32
John 6:62
John 16:28
John 17:5
Description as Eternal
As used of YHWY:
Psalm 102:26-27
Habakkuk 3:6
As used of JESUS:
Isaiah 9:6
Micah 5:2
John 8:58
Description as Unchanging
As used of YHWY:
Isaiah 46:9, 16
Malachi 3:6
James 1:17
As used if JESUS:
Hebrews 12:8
Description as Receiver of Worship
As used of YHWY:
Matthew 4:10
John 4:24
Revelation 5:14
Revelation 7:11
Revelation 11:16
As used of JESUS:
Matthew 14:33
Matthew 28:9
John 9:38
Philippians 2:10-11
Hebrews 1:6
Description as Speaker with Divine Authority
As used by YHWY:
"Thus says The Lord..." Used hundreds of times
As used by JESUS:
"Truly, truly, I say..."
Matthew 23:34-37
John 7:46

Elymas Bar-Jesus "son of Jesus" made the same mistake by making Jesus into the Father, (YHWH). That is why Elymas is called a sorcerer, (because it is word sorcery). It has been said in a few other places in this forum, and it is bears true, that the Apostolic writers follow the example laid out in the Septuagint, (for they continually quote from either the LXX Septuagint or some other heretofore unknown manuscript or codex which must have been nearly identical) and the example laid out in the LXX Septuagint follows the Hebrew practice of NOT using the definite article before the word Kyrios/Kurios where it has been substituted for the Tetragrammaton, (YHWH) because it is a PERSONAL NAME. Therefore when you read Kurios or one of the forms thereof in the Greek N/T it should be read as "the Master" when it concerns Yeshua and has the definite article before it. The first example in the Apostolic writings comes right off at the start in Matthew:

Matthew 1:20 Transliterated Unaccented
20. Tauta de autou enthumethentos idou angelos Kuriou kat onar efane auto legon "Iosef huios Dauid me fobethes paralabein Mariam ten gunaika sou to gar en aute gennethen ek Pneumatos estin Hagiou

No definite article: "idou angelos Kuriou" ~ "behold, [an] Angel of YHWH"

This happens over and over but is ignored by the translator-interpreters. :)

:sheep:

daqq
July 15th, 2015, 02:23 AM
And to finish it off, showing scripturally Jesus is God...
A Comparison of YHWY and JESUS to Show There Same Identity
Description as YHWY (I AM)
As used of YHWY:
Exodus 3:14

Also concerning the above opening remarks of your same post the Septuagint which came some three hundred years before the advent of Messiah, (at least the Torah portions) does not render Exodus 3:14 in the way that the modern English translator-interpreters do:

Exodus 3:14 LXX-Septuagint
14 καὶ εἶπεν ὁ Θεὸς πρὸς Μωυσῆν λέγων· ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν. καὶ εἶπεν· οὕτως ἐρεῖς τοῖς υἱοῖς ᾿Ισραήλ· ὁ ὢν ἀπέσταλκέ με πρὸς ὑμᾶς.
http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek...?book=2&page=3 (http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/septuagint/chapter.asp?book=2&page=3)

Exodus 3:14
14. And Elohim said to Mosheh: Ego eimi HO ON, (I am HE WHO IS). And He said, Thus shall you say unto the sons of Yisrael: "HO ON has sent me to you."

Where you and the interpreters have "Ego eimi", ("I am") the Septuagint rather has "HO ON", ("HE WHO IS/EXISTS", or as Brenton's Septuagint Translation has it in the link above, "THE BEING") and this is subjective to ones understanding of the same phrase, "'EHYEH 'SHER 'EHYEH", (transliterated from the Hebrew of Exodus 3:14). In addition Revelation 1:4 and especially Revelation 1:8 support the Septuagint understanding.

1Mind1Spirit
July 15th, 2015, 02:46 AM
The Didache is also called the "Teaching of the Twelve Apostles." Some say it was 90-100 and others date it to be written around 65 - 80 A.D. Either way, it's supposed to be what the twelve apostles taught to the Gentiles concerning life and death, church order, fasting, baptism, prayer, etc. so it wasn't written by them but what they taught. That's the issue :) And this is just one evidence in the multitude I showed through early church history, and the Bible :) This work (Didache) is cited by Eusebius who lived from 260 - 341 and Athanasius 293-373. It seems to be referenced by Origen who lived from 185-254. In the Didache, 16:2-3 is quoted in the Epistle of Barnabas in 4:9, or vice versa.1 The Epistle of Barnabas was written in 130-131 A.D. The Didache is not inspired, but is valuable as an early church document.
So Any thoughts on all the scripture that Proves my point as well?

Your misinterpretation of scripture proves nothing.

You might ought to actually read Barnabas' epistle.


Barnabas 6

11 Since then he made us new by the remission of sins he made us another type, that we should have the soul of children, as though he were creating us afresh.


12 For it is concerning us that the scripture says that he says to the Son, "Let us make man after our image and likeness, and let them rule the beasts of the earth, and the birds of heaven, and the fishes of the sea." And the Lord said, when he saw our fair creation, "Increase and multiply and fill the earth"; these things were spoken to the Son.





Where is Barnabas saying anything about the Didache?




Barnabas 4:9

9 (And though I wish to write much, I hasten to write in devotion to you, not as a teacher, but as it becomes one who loves to leave out nothing of that which we have.) Wherefore let us pay heed in the last days, for the whole time of our life and faith will profit us nothing, unless we resist, as becomes the sons of God in this present evil time, against the offences which are to come, that the Black One may have no opportunity of entry.


Barnabas 9:4

4 But moreover the circumcision in which they trusted has been abolished. For he declared that circumcision was not of the flesh, but they erred because an evil angel was misleading them.

oatmeal
July 15th, 2015, 04:13 AM
The Bible Does say so. First, There are people who believe the Trinity is from pagan religions :p lol. Well, the pagans believed in a Triad of gods. They were polytheists. That means they believed in three main gods (Triad) who were completely separate beings. And they ruled over the rest of the gods.
The Trinity is 1 God with three persons-The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit that are equal in essence and nature as One God. And they rule over No other gods as there's only one God. Unlike JW where there are at least two (The God and a god) so the Trinity has less gods then The Watchtower. We have One-The Trinity. And the Bible clearly states in the Trinity, so it's not from "outside pagan religions."
For example, Peter refers to the saints who have been chosen "according to the foreknowledge of God The Father." (1 Peter 1:2) when Jesus made a post resurrection appearance to Thomas, the disciple worshipfully responded by addressing Him, "My Lord and MY GOD." (John 20:28) The Father also said of the Son, "Your throne O God, is forever and ever." In Acts 5:3-4, we are told that lying to the Holy Spirit is equivalent to lying to God. Peter said,"Ananias, why has satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit,,, You have not lied to men but to God."
Besides being called God, each of the three persons are seen on different occasions to possess the attributes of deity. Note the following examples:
All three persons possess the attribute of omnipresence:
The Father (1 Kings 8:27)
The Son (Matthew 28:20)
The Holy Spirit (psalm 139:7)
All three have the attribute of omniscience:
The Father (psalm 147:5)
The Son (John 16:30)
The Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:10)
All three have the attribute of omnipotence:
The Father (Psalm 135:6)
The Son (Matthew 28:18)
The Holy Spirit (Romans 15:19)
Holiness is ascribed to each of the three persons:
The Father (Revelation 15:4)
The Son (Acts 3:14)
The Holy Spirit (Romans 1:4)
Eternity is ascribed to each of the three persons:
The Father (Psalm 90:2)
The Son (Micah 5:2, John 1:4)
The Holy Spirit (Hebrews 9:14)
Each if the three persons is described as the Truth:
The Father (John 7:28)
The Son (Revelation 3:7)
The Holy Spirit (1 John 5:6)
Each of the three is called Lord (Luke 2:11, Romans 10:12, 2 Corinthians 3:17) each is called Everlasting (Romans 16:26, Hebrews 9:14, Revelation 22:13) each is called Almighty (Genesis 17:1, Romans 15:19, Revelation 1:8) and each is called Powerful (Jeremiah 32:17, Zechariah 4:6, Hebrews 1:3)
Can any one other than God have the Attributes of God?
In addition to having the attributes of deity, each of the three persons were involved in doing the works of deity. For example, all three were involved in the creation of the world:
The Father (Genesis 2:7, Psalm 102:25, 1 Corinthians 8:6)
The Son (John 1:3, Colossians 1;16, Hebrews 1:2)
The Holy Spirit (Genesis 1:2, Job 33:4, Psalm 104:30)
They were also involved in the incarnation and resurrection but I won't go into those verses as I think these are good for now.
Also to mention, that the pagans taught the concept of a flood that killed most of humankind and the concept of a messiah like figure named Tammuz who was allegedly resurrected. Are those concepts false just because pagans taught remotely similar accounts?
And if you still don't understand the Trinity, does it mean it's not True? I mean do you think it is possible for human beings to know everything about God? If yes, please explain Isaiah 55:8-9, Romans 11:33, and 1 Corinthians 13:12.
We should not reject a doctrine simply because we cannot fully comprehend it. Especially since it's in the Bible :)


We should not reject a doctrine simply because we cannot fully comprehend it. Especially since it's in the Bible :


Nor should we accept a doctrine simply because someone else says that it is true.

God does not command that we be gullible, in fact He teaches the opposite. Acts 17:11

The verses you listed under attributes the son are clearly understood for someone who has no previous bias toward a doctrine.



All three persons possess the attribute of omnipresence:

The Son (Matthew 28:20)

Being with someone is not omnipresence unless that someone is omnipresent.

Likewise, with, meta, means to be in asscciation and companionship with, not proximity as sun does.


All three have the attribute of omniscience:

The Son (John 16:30)

All things? all what things? He knew all things he needed to know to carry out his Father's business. He does not know the time of his return, Acts 1:7 Likewise, Mark 2:8 "when Jesus perceived" If he knew all things about everything there he would have already known.


All three have the attribute of omnipotence:

The Son (Matthew 28:18)

If Jesus is God he would have always had that power, it would not have to be given to him. He being human, not God, had to receive power. He was anointed with power. Acts 10:38

Your so called proofs, do not stand up to the simplest of scrutiny.

Thus your theology does not stand up to scrutiny

Time to read and believe scripture, not the traditions of men

Ben Masada
July 15th, 2015, 04:37 AM
Jesus said that we have the very same God and the very same Father that He does.

John 20:17
17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.'"
(NKJ)

...then Mary Magdalene went to the disciples and, how did they get the message? They didn't. They took her words as idle tales and they believed them not. (Luke 24:10,11) Why? Probably because they, like Jesus, were all Jews and had never heard that someone could return from the grave.

daqq
July 15th, 2015, 04:43 AM
All three persons possess the attribute of omnipresence:

All three have the attribute of omniscience:

All three have the attribute of omnipotence:Classic definition of three equal Gods with no Supreme Head of Authority. But a man cannot serve more than one Master: if there are three heads with "equal authority" then the man will always pick his favored one over the other two. :Shimei:

Ben Masada
July 15th, 2015, 05:04 AM
Jesus said that we have the very same God and the very same Father that He does.

John 20:17
17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.'"
(NKJ)

The Absolute Oneness of God

Isaiah says that, absolutely, God cannot be compared with anyone or anything, as we read Isaiah 46:5. "To whom will ye liken Me, and make Me equal to , or compare Me with, that we may be alike?"

Therefore, more than one God would have been unable to produce the world; one would have impeded the work of the other, unless this could be avoided by a suitable division of labor.

More than one Divine Being would have one element in common, and would differ in another; each would thus consist of two elements, and would not be God.

More than one God are moved to action by will; the will, without a substratum, could not act simultaneously in more than one being.

Therefore, the existence of one God is proved; the existence of more than one God cannot be proved. One could suggest that it would be possible; but since as possibility is inapplicable to God, there does not exist more than one God. So, the possibility of ascertaining the existence of God is here confounded with potentiality of existence.

Again, if one God suffices, a second or third God would be superfluous; if one God is not sufficient, he is not perfect, and cannot be a deity.

Now, besides being God absolutely One, He is incorporeal. If God were corporeal, He would consist of atoms, and would not be one; or he would be comparable to other beings; but a comparison implies the existence of similar and of dissimilar elements, and God would thus not be One. A corporeal God would be finite, and an external power would be required to define those limits.

CherubRam
August 12th, 2015, 06:15 AM
One God
Joshua 22:22
“The Mighty One, God, the Lord! The Mighty One, God, the Lord! He knows! And let Israel know! If this has been in rebellion or disobedience to the Lord, do not spare us this day.

Psalm 50:1
The Mighty One, God, the Lord, speaks and summons the earth from the rising of the sun to where it sets.

Malachi 2:10
Do we not all have one Father? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our ancestors by being unfaithful to one another?

Malachi 2:15
Has not the one God made you? You belong to him in body and spirit. And what does the one God seek? Godly offspring. So be on your guard, and do not be unfaithful to the wife of your youth.

Romans 3:30
since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Ephesians 4:6
one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

James 2:19
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.


If God was a Trinity, scriptures would say so.
Yahwah says that there is no god besides Him. He says that He is alone. He also states that there is no other. If Yahwah was a multiple God, He would have said so.


Nehemiah 9:6
You alone are (the Lord / Yahwah.)


Isaiah 45:22
“Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.


Isaiah 46:9
Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me.

Isaiah 45:6
so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting people may know there is none besides me. I am the Lord, and there is no other.


Isaiah 47:8
“Now then, listen, you lover of pleasure, lounging in your security and saying to yourself, ‘I am, and there is none besides me. I will never be a widow or suffer the loss of children.’

jamie
August 12th, 2015, 07:29 AM
The word "spirit" is generic and its meaning must be determined by the context in which the word is used. Not all spirits are persons. For example Jesus said, "Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."

The Holy Spirit is not a person, it is a spirit, the spirit of God. Paul explained, "But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ he is not His." (Romans 8:9 NKJV)

The Father and Son have the same spirit, the spirit of God. The person of God does not dwell within us, it is his spirit that converts our mind from carnal to God's spirit.

It was God's spirit that caused Mary to become pregnant, not the person of God.

Omniskeptical
August 12th, 2015, 07:35 AM
Also concerning the above opening remarks of your same post the Septuagint which came some three hundred years before the advent of Messiah, (at least the Torah portions) does not render Exodus 3:14 in the way that the modern English translator-interpreters do:

Exodus 3:14 LXX-Septuagint
14 καὶ εἶπεν ὁ Θεὸς πρὸς Μωυσῆν λέγων· ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν. καὶ εἶπεν· οὕτως ἐρεῖς τοῖς υἱοῖς ᾿Ισραήλ· ὁ ὢν ἀπέσταλκέ με πρὸς ὑμᾶς.
http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek...?book=2&page=3 (http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/septuagint/chapter.asp?book=2&page=3)

Exodus 3:14
14. And Elohim said to Mosheh: Ego eimi HO ON, (I am HE WHO IS). And He said, Thus shall you say unto the sons of Yisrael: "HO ON has sent me to you."

Where you and the interpreters have "Ego eimi", ("I am") the Septuagint rather has "HO ON", ("HE WHO IS/EXISTS", or as Brenton's Septuagint Translation has it in the link above, "THE BEING") and this is subjective to ones understanding of the same phrase, "'EHYEH 'SHER 'EHYEH", (transliterated from the Hebrew of Exodus 3:14). In addition Revelation 1:4 and especially Revelation 1:8 support the Septuagint understanding. There is no proof HO ON is anything the response of Yahweh to Moses, being that he causes what is. I AM skeptical of this dung scholarship, which gives a pantheist meaning for the name of god.

Omniskeptical
August 12th, 2015, 07:37 AM
150 AD Justin Martyr quotes Hebrews 1:8 to prove the Deity of Christ. "Thy "throne, O God, is forever and ever." (Dialogue with Trypho, ch 56)"Don't lie. Justin Martyr didn't believe Jesus was significant to the father.

Ben Masada
August 12th, 2015, 07:41 AM
1 - The word "spirit" is generic and its meaning must be determined by the context in which the word is used. Not all spirits are persons. For example Jesus said, "Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."

The Holy Spirit is not a person, it is a spirit, the spirit of God. Paul explained, "But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ he is not His." (Romans 8:9 NKJV)

The Father and Son have the same spirit, the spirit of God. The person of God does not dwell within us, it is his spirit that converts our mind from carnal to God's spirit

It was God's spirit that caused Mary to become pregnant, not the person of God.

Okay, if the Trinity is one Spirit only, why Christians keep referring to Jesus as God? And since spirit can be any thing, even the breath of life, this means that the Spirit that God is, cannot be described as Father, son, or Holy Ghost as you do above.

Omniskeptical
August 12th, 2015, 07:42 AM
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in flesh [i.e. Christ Jesus], justified in the Spirit, seen of <s>angels</s> messengers, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory It should be obvious this verse doesn't support the trinity doctrine.