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serpentdove
July 7th, 2015, 01:09 PM
Not do you think you're right--do you hope that you are right that there is no God and therefore no ultimate justice in the afterlife?

chrysostom
July 7th, 2015, 01:27 PM
Not do you think you're right--do you hope that you are right that there is no God and therefore no ultimate justice in the afterlife?

I'm glad you used the word hope
they don't use that word
there is no hope for them
just ask them
do they want God to exist?
and
watch them run for cover
they don't want to answer that question

serpentdove
July 7th, 2015, 02:59 PM
...They don't want to answer that question.
Dennis Prager discussed this on his radio program today.

glassjester
July 8th, 2015, 05:39 AM
Not do you think you're right--do you hope that you are right that there is no God and therefore no ultimate justice in the afterlife?

Interesting question.

What's the purpose of it?

Hedshaker
July 8th, 2015, 05:50 AM
Not do you think you're right--do you hope that you are right that there is no God and therefore no ultimate justice in the afterlife?

I guess we're in the same boat as you if you've been worshipping the wrong god, which is plausible given that the evidence for all the gods is exactly the same, none at all. :juggle:

Tyrathca
July 8th, 2015, 07:36 AM
Not do you think you're right--do you hope that you are right that there is no God and therefore no ultimate justice in the afterlife? Yes, the thought of ISIS being right and having to face their Allah is frightening!


:p

Hedshaker
July 8th, 2015, 07:52 AM
Yes, the thought of ISIS being right and having to face their Allah is frightening!


:p


................ Boom!!!!!! :chuckle:

serpentdove
July 8th, 2015, 08:41 AM
I guess we're in the same boat as you if you've been worshipping the wrong god, which is plausible given that the evidence for all the gods is exactly the same, none at all. :juggle:

An atheist on his program did the same. He simply answered I'm right but that wasn't the question. The question is not: Are you right? The question is: Do you hope you are right? :sleep:

serpentdove
July 8th, 2015, 08:42 AM
Yes, the thought of ISIS being right and having to face their Allah is frightening!


:p

One man called Prager's show and again wouldn't answer the question. He said he hadn't thought about it in his 45 years of life.

serpentdove
July 8th, 2015, 08:44 AM
Interesting question.

What's the purpose of it?

You'll get a glimpse into their heart. :sherlock:

serpentdove
July 8th, 2015, 08:47 AM
Prager played a Krauthammer soundbite (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ma5UgbV3QnU)on his program.

Tyrathca
July 8th, 2015, 03:14 PM
The problem is it is a dumb question, not only because what we want is irrelevant to what is true but also because there isn't a single version of good to accept or reject. So do I hope of I'm right of there is no God? Depends on the god, a kind and benign one or an aloof and disinterested one maybe is like to be wrong. However most versions describe a petty and vindictive (if not downright cruel) God in which case I hope I am right.

flintstoned
July 8th, 2015, 06:00 PM
Not do you think you're right--do you hope that you are right that there is no God and therefore no ultimate justice in the afterlife?

Well, first of all, as an atheist, I simply have not been convinced to believe in any god. That doesn't mean that I am claiming that gods do not in fact exist. How should I know? For all I know, there could be hundreds out there! I just have not had any personal experience of any god or have seen any convincing evidence yet to believe in any particular god.

I don't know about you, but my beliefs are the result of being convinced (by evidence/experience) of something's truth. I cannot choose to believe in the existence of something based on fear, or even based on my wants/desires. Heck, there are some things that I believe in that I would rather not believe, but have no choice based on the overwhelming evidence.

Even if someone were to offer me 10 million dollars to believe that I was a porcupine, for example, I couldn't make myself actually believe. Would I want to believe it? Heck yeah! Could I “try” to believe? Yes! Could I pretend to believe it? Sure! But would I actually believe it? No. Like I said before, wanting to believe something does not change the fact that I do not actually believe it.

Believing that something exists should be independent of whether or not that belief could give you comfort or fulfill a desire. Either you are convinced by evidence that a particular god exists, or you are not convinced and you remain without belief (as a non-believer; atheist) until such time as you are provided with such. For instance, if I was convinced by evidence that a two headed tyrant god existed, I would have no choice but to believe that it existed, period....regardless of how much I hoped that it did not.

Interplanner
July 8th, 2015, 09:01 PM
serpentdove,
are you a Prager fan? he was on this this past tuesday for Ultimate Issues. 'do you hope you are right or wrong?' Spot on! pragerradio.com

serpentdove
July 9th, 2015, 09:31 AM
"The problem is it is a dumb question, not only because what we want is irrelevant to what is true..." There are no dumb questions. Just dumb people (Ps 14:1).


"...[B]ut also because there isn't a single version of good to accept or reject." There aren't versions of God. God is good (Ex. 34:6, Ps. 31:19). Not the question. :juggle:


"So do I hope of I'm right of there is no God? Depends on the god..." Not the question. :sleep: God is: living, personal, relational, good and loving. Do you hope that you are right that God does not exist?


"...a kind and benign one" One that makes no demands of you (Jn 3:18–20).


"..or an aloof and disinterested one maybe..." One that does not hold you accountable for your actions (Is. 46:13; Zeph. 1:14).


"...[M]ost versions describe a petty and vindictive (if not downright cruel) God..." Ro 5:8

We are not discussing your spaghetti god in the sky. We are discussing Yahweh , the God of scripture.


"...in which case I hope I am right." You do not care if there is an ultimate justice--a God who sets all things right (Deut. 32:4). :idunno:

Jamie Gigliotti
July 9th, 2015, 09:42 AM
I guess we're in the same boat as you if you've been worshipping the wrong god, which is plausible given that the evidence for all the gods is exactly the same, none at all. :juggle:

If you are wrong you suffer a horrendous fate. If Christians are wrong we lose nothing. This describes Pascal's wager.

The evidence is not the same. Eleven of Christ's disciples were tortured and killed for not denying the truth of their testimony, that they saw the risen Jesus.

The Only true God proved He is love by the sacrifice of His Son, which was One with Him. His self incarnated. The Judgement is unavoidable because of His Holiness, His Love and Mercy are a product of that same Holiness.

Humans have an inate sense of right and wrong, that philosophers call the natural law that we all know exists. This Law is evidence of moral truth, of a Law Giver (God). Only physcopaths have no conscience.

Physicists agree the universe came into being in an instant. Natural Selection proves that species change physical characteristics. It does not prove species changing into other species. Chromosomes are not added or subtracted. Amazingly Lions and Tigers are the same species with different physical characteristics.

Jamie Gigliotti
July 9th, 2015, 09:48 AM
The problem is it is a dumb question, not only because what we want is irrelevant to what is true but also because there isn't a single version of good to accept or reject. So do I hope of I'm right of there is no God? Depends on the god, a kind and benign one or an aloof and disinterested one maybe is like to be wrong. However most versions describe a petty and vindictive (if not downright cruel) God in which case I hope I am right.

Imagine the most glorious rich earthly King suffering a horrendous death for His love of those who mocked and despised Him. This describes the one true God.

Jamie Gigliotti
July 9th, 2015, 09:51 AM
Well, first of all, as an atheist, I simply have not been convinced to believe in any god. That doesn't mean that I am claiming that gods do not in fact exist. How should I know? For all I know, there could be hundreds out there! I just have not had any personal experience of any god or have seen any convincing evidence yet to believe in any particular god.

I don't know about you, but my beliefs are the result of being convinced (by evidence/experience) of something's truth. I cannot choose to believe in the existence of something based on fear, or even based on my wants/desires. Heck, there are some things that I believe in that I would rather not believe, but have no choice based on the overwhelming evidence.

Even if someone were to offer me 10 million dollars to believe that I was a porcupine, for example, I couldn't make myself actually believe. Would I want to believe it? Heck yeah! Could I “try” to believe? Yes! Could I pretend to believe it? Sure! But would I actually believe it? No. Like I said before, wanting to believe something does not change the fact that I do not actually believe it.

Believing that something exists should be independent of whether or not that belief could give you comfort or fulfill a desire. Either you are convinced by evidence that a particular god exists, or you are not convinced and you remain without belief (as a non-believer; atheist) until such time as you are provided with such. For instance, if I was convinced by evidence that a two headed tyrant god existed, I would have no choice but to believe that it existed, period....regardless of how much I hoped that it did not.

If you seek God you will find Him. His presence will give you all the proof you need. Read the New Testament and sincerly ask Him to reveal Himself to you and He will.

serpentdove
July 9th, 2015, 09:56 AM
"Well, first of all, as an atheist..." Why do you identify as "other"?


"...I simply have not been convinced to believe in any god." Not the question. :rolleyes:


"That doesn't mean that I am claiming that gods do not in fact exist. How should I know?" Not asking what you know. Asking what you hope. :freak:


"For all I know, there could be hundreds out there!" Not the question. :AMR:



"I just have not had any personal experience of any god or have seen any convincing evidence yet to believe in any particular god." Not the question. :sleep:



"I don't know about you, but my beliefs are the result of being convinced (by evidence/experience) of something's truth." Not here to discuss your beliefs. http://vananne.com/serpentdove/drool.gif


"I cannot choose to believe in the existence of something based on fear..."
:noway: You won't be frightened into truth. http://vananne.com/serpentdove/367b35ec45accddaa2dca589ec3e6cf1.gif Gen. 3:10, Pr 1:7

"...or even based on my wants/desires." TMI :granite:


"Heck, there are some things that I believe in that I would rather not believe..." Not the question. :Plain:


"...Like I said before, wanting to believe something does not change the fact that I do not actually believe it." http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah210/indonesiansystem/Suicide.gif


"Believing that something exists should be independent of whether or not that belief could give you comfort or fulfill a desire." http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah210/indonesiansystem/hang-yourself.gif


"Either you are convinced by evidence that a particular god exists, or you are not convinced and you remain without belief (as a non-believer; atheist) until such time as you are provided with such." http://orig05.deviantart.net/5982/f/2007/270/4/a/jump_off_a_cliff_by_death_au.gif


"For instance, if I was convinced by evidence that a two headed tyrant god existed, I would have no choice but to believe that it existed, period....regardless of how much I hoped that it did not." :smack:

serpentdove
July 9th, 2015, 09:59 AM
If you seek God you will find Him.

"He can't find God for the same reason a thief can't find a police officer." ~ Adrian Rogers

serpentdove
July 9th, 2015, 10:17 AM
serpentdove,
are you a Prager fan? If you call love/hate a fan. :idunno:


[H]e was on this this past Tuesday for Ultimate Issues.
That's a fun hour. :jump: Christians call him at times. He has been unable thus far to even understand their arguments. :sigh:

He is spiritually blind (Lk 4:18–21; Ac 26:18). Let's stand in the gap for our slow-of-heart, stiff-necked friends (Lk 24:25, Ac 7:51).


'do you hope you are right or wrong?' Spot on! pragerradio.com He put the question out there: If you could ask an atheist one thing...

Hedshaker
July 10th, 2015, 01:16 AM
If you are wrong you suffer a horrendous fate. If Christians are wrong we lose nothing. This describes Pascal's wager.

Why Pascal's wager is poor reasoning (http://www.update.uu.se/~fbendz/nogod/pascal.htm)

From the link:
"The main problem with Pascal's wager is that it suffers from the fallacy of bifurcation. It only calculates with two options when there are, in fact, at least four alternatives: The Christian God and afterlife, some other god and afterlife, atheism with afterlife, and atheism without afterlife. Therefore Pascal's wager is invalid as an argument. "


The evidence is not the same. Eleven of Christ's disciples were tortured and killed for not denying the truth of their testimony, that they saw the risen Jesus.


And Muslims are prepared to blow themselves up, therefore Islam must be the true religion and Allah the one true god. Your reasoning not mine. :kook:


The Only true God proved He is love by the sacrifice of His Son, which was One with Him. His self incarnated. The Judgement is unavoidable because of His Holiness, His Love and Mercy are a product of that same Holiness.


:yawn: Religious platitudes and not in evidence. Mohamed rode to heaven on the back of a winged horse, no less. Therefore Allah is the true God and Mohamed his prophet. That must be true because it is written in an holy book :p


Humans have an inate sense of right and wrong, that philosophers call the natural law that we all know exists. This Law is evidence of moral truth, of a Law Giver (God). Only physcopaths have no conscience.


I agree, apart from the Law giver bit, for which there is no evidence. And of course, the last place we should look for moral guidance is the Bible.... shudder!


Physicists agree the universe came into being in an instant. Natural Selection proves that species change physical characteristics. It does not prove species changing into other species. Chromosomes are not added or subtracted. Amazingly Lions and Tigers are the same species with different physical characteristics.

Yeah, ain't nature something?

You'll be in trouble if you've chosen the wrong god. For me I just disbelieve in one more god than you do :greedy:

Hedshaker
July 10th, 2015, 01:19 AM
If you seek God you will find Him. His presence will give you all the proof you need. Read the New Testament and sincerly ask Him to reveal Himself to you and He will.

If you're thinking of going into used car sales you might consider keeping your day job for a while :)

aikido7
July 10th, 2015, 02:20 AM
Both sides claim impeccable evidence and both sides are unyielding.

Tyrathca
July 10th, 2015, 02:46 AM
There aren't versions of God. God is good (Ex. 34:6, Ps. 31:19). Not the question. :juggle: There aren't people different claims about who and what God is? All theists agree on the same God as you and no other claims could even be conceived? Because if there are more than one God claim to consider then that would be very relevant to the question of whether I want God claims to be true.


Not the question. :sleep: God is: living, personal, relational, good and loving. Do you hope that you are right that God does not exist? some of those terms meaningless in this context (living?), the rest is hardly a comprehensive summary.

[quot] We are not discussing your spaghetti god in the sky. We are discussing Yahweh , the God of scripture.[/quote] Are we? You should have said so earlier. By the way which Yahweh are we talking about? There are so many denominations with different interpretations....


You do not care if there is an ultimate justice--a God who sets all things right (Deut. 32:4). :idunno: Actually the idea sounds appealing though it would depend on the form that justice took. Justice is a subjective term which changes between times, cultures and people.

Jamie Gigliotti
July 10th, 2015, 12:05 PM
Why Pascal's wager is poor reasoning (http://www.update.uu.se/~fbendz/nogod/pascal.htm)

From the link:
"The main problem with Pascal's wager is that it suffers from the fallacy of bifurcation. It only calculates with two options when there are, in fact, at least four alternatives: The Christian God and afterlife, some other god and afterlife, atheism with afterlife, and atheism without afterlife. Therefore Pascal's wager is invalid as an argument. "



And Muslims are prepared to blow themselves up, therefore Islam must be the true religion and Allah the one true god. Your reasoning not mine. :kook:



:yawn: Religious platitudes and not in evidence. Mohamed rode to heaven on the back of a winged horse, no less. Therefore Allah is the true God and Mohamed his prophet. That must be true because it is written in an holy book :p



I agree, apart from the Law giver bit, for which there is no evidence. And of course, the last place we should look for moral guidance is the Bible.... shudder!



Yeah, ain't nature something?

You'll be in trouble if you've chosen the wrong god. For me I just disbelieve in one more god than you do :greedy:

The point of Pascal argument holds true in our circumstance. Yours and mine. I lose nothing by following Christ if I was wrong and you were right. You lose everything if you are wrong and I am right.

Muslims killing themselves and others has nothing to do with being murdered for not denying the truth of what your eyes witnessed.

Religious platitudes? Seeking understanding of God so far beyond us is difficult. The Cross does do an enormous endeavor to understand the love of a Holy God. Mohamed did not have witnesses murdered who proclaimed love and peace because of their testimony of Him.

MrDeets
July 10th, 2015, 12:15 PM
I don't "hope that I'm right" any more than I hope the chair in front of me holds my weight before I sit. When there is sufficient evidence, one has no need to hope for a desired outcome.

chrysostom
July 10th, 2015, 12:27 PM
The problem is it is a dumb question, not only because what we want is irrelevant to what is true but also because there isn't a single version of good to accept or reject. So do I hope of I'm right of there is no God? Depends on the god, a kind and benign one or an aloof and disinterested one maybe is like to be wrong. However most versions describe a petty and vindictive (if not downright cruel) God in which case I hope I am right.

just tell us what kind of God you want

Granite
July 10th, 2015, 12:31 PM
The point of Pascal argument holds true in our circumstance.

Nope, not really. It's a joke.


Yours and mine. I lose nothing by following Christ if I was wrong and you were right.

...or you lose everything if the Muslims are onto something. And so on.


You lose everything if you are wrong and I am right.

Wouldn't that be best left to the almighty and not his not-so-helpful messengers on earth?:think:

alwight
July 10th, 2015, 01:37 PM
The point of Pascal argument holds true in our circumstance. Yours and mine. I lose nothing by following Christ if I was wrong and you were right. You lose everything if you are wrong and I am right.
Pascal's wager was considered at the time to be a pretty much an even bet, but if the real god (should there be one) is in actuality a totally unknowable entity then picking the real god from an infinite number of possibilities is no wager at all.
Otoh why risk miffing the real god (if there is one), and wasting your time in this life, the only life you can be sure you will ever have, in a false belief?
Far from losing nothing surely spending a whole lifetime in an insincere and ultimately false belief would be losing much.

Jamie Gigliotti
July 10th, 2015, 01:41 PM
I don't "hope that I'm right" any more than I hope the chair in front of me holds my weight before I sit. When there is sufficient evidence, one has no need to hope for a desired outcome.
It takes just an enormous amount of faith to believe Hawking that all that exists in our universe just created itself for no purpose or reason.

MrDeets
July 10th, 2015, 01:49 PM
It takes just an enormous amount of faith to believe Hawking that all that exists in our universe just created itself for no purpose or reason.

My lack of belief in your god(atheism) says nothing about my opinions about the origins of the universe(astronomy, physics, etc).

alwight
July 10th, 2015, 01:52 PM
Not do you think you're right--do you hope that you are right that there is no God and therefore no ultimate justice in the afterlife?I'd like to think that existence itself is ultimately rational and if not fully explainable in this life perhaps explainable rationally in some other existence.
If creationists and Kent Hovind are right then there is no need for any rational answers, just "Goddidit", which is just not a satisfactory answer for me, so no I don't want that to be true.

Town Heretic
July 10th, 2015, 02:23 PM
I don't find a belief in God to be in any sense a necessary compromise of curiosity. The universe is mechanism, one way or the other, and the exploration of that mechanism is fascinating.

But it's an odd question, to my mind. If an atheist hoped for God he would adopt the closest approximation to that hope and cease being one, the issue being open objectively, impossible to settle empirically and the benefits rather immediate if right (and to some extent regardless). That is, if a man isn't simply enthralled by a romantic view of nihilism then he would or should advance the cause of an optimistic gamble within the context of this life (Pascal be hanged). But he hasn't, by definition, so what's the point of the inquiry?

alwight
July 10th, 2015, 03:47 PM
But it's an odd question, to my mind. If an atheist hoped for God he would adopt the closest approximation to that hope and cease being one, the issue being open objectively, impossible to settle empirically and the benefits rather immediate if right (and to some extent regardless). What an atheist may hope for imo isn't necessarily what must therefore be believed as actually true.
Hoping for a god to exist doesn't negate an atheistic conclusion.

If I've understood you TH, you perhaps think that the benefits of believing in God make disbelief somewhat invalid, while I don't agree. I think we have no reason to be here if we can somehow make ourselves believe something because it is personally beneficial and not because it is necessarily true.

Further to that I rather think that Darwinian evolution (That thing that atheists like to bang on about. ;)) has more to do with encouraging just that kind of theistic thinking, simply because it has perhaps worked better in the past than an atheistic alternative would, but not because it is actually true only because in practice it works.


That is, if a man isn't simply enthralled by a romantic view of nihilism then he would or should advance the cause of an optimistic gamble within the context of this life (Pascal be hanged). But he hasn't, by definition, so what's the point of the inquiry?Atheists aren't typically attracted to nihilism or godlessness, atheism is merely a conclusion of disbelief made from a perceived lack of godly evidence. An atheist's position is typically provisional until something changes that perception.

Hedshaker
July 10th, 2015, 03:55 PM
The point of Pascal argument holds true in our circumstance. Yours and mine. I lose nothing by following Christ if I was wrong and you were right. You lose everything if you are wrong and I am right.

No, you could also lose if you have chosen the wrong God, of which there are many, all of whom are claimed to be the one true God by their followers. And the only difference between you and I is that I reject one more god than you. This isn't rocket science.


Muslims killing themselves and others has nothing to do with being murdered for not denying the truth of what your eyes witnessed.


They are prepared to lay down their lives for their beliefs, as are many others, which is exactly the same regardless of who is making the claims. You have no sound evidence for the veracity of truth claims made by ancient anonymous authors but that you chose one faith belief over another.


Religious platitudes? Seeking understanding of God so far beyond us is difficult. The Cross does do an enormous endeavor to understand the love of a Holy God. Mohamed did not have witnesses murdered who proclaimed love and peace because of their testimony of Him.

And yet we do not see them converting in droves, do we? They are theists just like you yet they choose to edge their bets on mutually exclusive faith stories. If you take issue with the finer points involved you should take it up with them because I don't buy any of it. What you need to understand James is that proselytising, preaching and apologetics is for bolstering the confirmation bias of theists, not sceptics and atheists. I've already heard it all before, many times and I'm no more convinced now than ever I was.

If you sincerely seek the Truth Tm then what could possibly be wrong with taking a critical study of what you believe? And from sources outside of the Christian Apologetics fraternity. Start with the history of your religion and seek genuine (or as near as possible) contemporary, historical evidence to back up the stories that you now hold dear. Did someone really come back to life after being clinically dead for three days? Did someone really go around performing miracles all over the place? Did someone really do a gravity defying walk on water, feed 5000 people on a fish sandwich? Try to dig out neutral sources, or as near as you can get. Not all Biblical criticism is atheistic propoganda.

Was there really any eye witnesses to these events or did someone simply embellish the stories over time through word of mouth? Chinese whispers!. We both know there are no original Bible writings but surly, if it's all true, there must be some contemporary evidence.

And remember, this is not about bolstering existing cherished beliefs, it is a search for truth, no matter what. You are seeking extra biblical evidence :up:

If you already have the Truth then there is nothing to fear, right?

It's up to you of course but for me the truth is way more important than anything I believe, or disbelieve. I am more than willing to investigate sound, falsifiable evidence. But as for proselytising, preaching and apologetics..... don't waste you breath on those if you wish to engage educated sceptics.

Cheers :up:

Good luck.

Hedshaker
July 10th, 2015, 04:44 PM
It takes just an enormous amount of faith to believe Hawking that all that exists in our universe just created itself for no purpose or reason.

Why not? And why-oh-why this assumption that existence itself must have been "created"? We all agree that there is existence, so all you are doing is adding and extra unseen, mysterious layer based on ancient holy books. But then, why stop there? Surly, following the same logic, the entity that created existence must itself have been created, which of course, leads to an infinite regress. And what exactly is infinity anyway to the minds of evolved apes with brains made of meat? The whole thing just disappears up its own rear given a little thought.

All we know for sure is that there is existence. No one knows anything about the state of existence pre Big Bang, not Hawking or any theologian or anyone. And there is no logical reason to assume that everything was poofed into existence at some point via supernatural magic. That's just superstition.

Time waits for no one - energy cannot be created or destroyed - given the existence of energy and matter (which we know are real) then space between events follows logically. How could it not?

Why assume this has ever been any different? And why not assume that, given deep time, anything can happen?

serpentdove
July 10th, 2015, 05:06 PM
"There aren't people different claims about who and what God is?" People make false claims all of the time (Ga 5:9). :idunno:


"All theists agree on the same God as you and no other claims could even be conceived?" People come up with false gods all of the time (Matt. 24:4-5, 24)--like that spaghetti god in the sky.


"Because if there are more than one God claim to consider..." Consider them. :idunno:

Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription:

To the Unknown God

Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings (Ac 17:22–26).




"...[T]hen that would be very relevant to the question of whether I want God claims to be true." It would (Is 1:18).


"...[W]hich Yahweh are we talking about? There are so many denominations with different interpretations..." The God of scripture.

"Every verse of the Bible means exactly what the author intended it to mean..." Full text: How to Interpret the Bible by Darrell Ferguson (http://vananne.com/applesofgold/Hermeneutics%20How%20to%20Interpret%20the%20Bible. htm) Eph 4:14

See:

Hermeneutics (http://vananne.com/applesofgold/#Hermeneutics)



"Justice is a subjective term which changes between times, cultures and people." God decides degrees of punishment (Matt. 23:14). You are not necessarily going to agree with him whilst burning in hell (Matt. 25:41).

serpentdove
July 10th, 2015, 05:24 PM
"I don't "hope that I'm right" any more than I hope the chair in front of me holds my weight before I sit." You hope all of the time. When you get on an airplane you hope that the pilot is not going to dive bomb your plane into a mountain.

Everyone has faith. :dizzy: You are your own god or God is your God (Ps. 73:6).


"When there is sufficient evidence..." Internal testimony (Ro 2:15), external testimony (Ps 19:1) and the scriptures (Jas 1:18). You are without excuse (Ro 1:20).

Not asking if you believe. We know you do not believe. :rolleyes: Asking do you hope you are right. :freak:


"[O]ne has no need to hope for a desired outcome." You can say that you refuse to answer the question. :chz4brnz:

serpentdove
July 10th, 2015, 05:31 PM
[Creation (Ge 1:1)] ..."Goddidit", which is just not a satisfactory answer for me, so no I don't want that to be true.

You do not care about an ultimate justice? 2 Thess 1:9

Jamie Gigliotti
July 10th, 2015, 06:03 PM
Why not? And why-oh-why this assumption that existence itself must have been "created"? We all agree that there is existence, so all you are doing is adding and extra unseen, mysterious layer based on ancient holy books. But then, why stop there? Surly, following the same logic, the entity that created existence must itself have been created, which of course, leads to an infinite regress. And what exactly is infinity anyway to the minds of evolved apes with brains made of meat? The whole thing just disappears up its own rear given a little thought.

All we know for sure is that there is existence. No one knows anything about the state of existence pre Big Bang, not Hawking or any theologian or anyone. And there is no logical reason to assume that everything was poofed into existence at some point via supernatural magic. That's just superstition.

Time waits for no one - energy cannot be created or destroyed - given the existence of energy and matter (which we know are real) then space between events follows logically. How could it not?

Why assume this has ever been any different? And why not assume that, given deep time, anything can happen?

So with our logic we see cause and effect which would go on for infinity as you say, which then off course breaks down cause and effect to one uncaused phenomena. God. Who is beyond all that we can experience and may in fact as some physicists guess lie in another dimension beyond our perception.

noguru
July 10th, 2015, 06:04 PM
Not do you think you're right--do you hope that you are right that there is no God and therefore no ultimate justice in the afterlife?

I was an agnostic/atheist for 17 years. What brought me back to theism was the hope that someday people like you will be confronted with your continuous stubborn errors on earth. Because to think that you will just sink further into oblivion without ever admitting your errors was an unbearable thought for me.

Atheists accept that your stubborn errors here won't really matter in the long run anyway. But for me it is how you currently walk in that air of false superiority (of course you like to give lip service to God) that just gets my goat.

alwight
July 10th, 2015, 06:07 PM
You do not care about an ultimate justice? 2 Thess 1:9I accept that life is basically unfair and doesn't really last too long and then that's the end, nothing more.
I suggest however that we deal with this, the one life that we know we have, including the correction and prevention of injustice as best we can, while we can.
Imo claims of a supposed "ultimate justice" is perhaps religion's biggest lie and dirty trick.:Plain:

noguru
July 10th, 2015, 06:15 PM
Imagine the most glorious rich earthly King suffering a horrendous death for His love of those who mocked and despised Him. This describes the one true God.

Logically and based on "traditional" interpretations of scripture and the Gospel, an omniscient and omnipotent God would have sacrificed absolutely nothing by submitting to the torture and dying on the cross. And of course one has to wonder why a God who experienced that would subject those he supposedly loves to an eternity of suffering. But you folks never seem to have the intestinal fortitude to ask tough questions like that.

noguru
July 10th, 2015, 06:19 PM
You do not care about an ultimate justice?

I care that my mother has to mentally decline with AC dementia and just die, but there is little I can do about her ultimate demise.

And your ideas of "justice" are not what I would call justice. If there were truly justice, you would freely admit when you are wrong.

noguru
July 10th, 2015, 06:21 PM
I accept that life is basically unfair and doesn't really last too long and then that's the end, nothing more.
I suggest however that we deal with this, the one life that we know we have, including the correction and prevention of injustice as best we can, while we can.
Imo claims of a supposed "ultimate justice" is perhaps religion's biggest lie and dirty trick.:Plain:

It is just another tool they (ab)use to try to intimidate others into submission to their flaky ideas.

noguru
July 10th, 2015, 06:26 PM
It takes just an enormous amount of faith to believe Hawking that all that exists in our universe just created itself for no purpose or reason.

That is not what the evidence indicates. But you will never admit when you are wrong.

noguru
July 10th, 2015, 06:37 PM
You'll get a glimpse into their heart. :sherlock:

:up:

Well it certainly beats the all glimpses we have had into your heart.

Daniel1611
July 10th, 2015, 06:39 PM
It is just another tool they (ab)use to try to intimidate others into submission to their flaky ideas.

Who is doing the intimidating?

Maybe the ones handing out fines and ruining businesses over cakes.

The ones ridiculing anyone who doesn't believe in foolish atheist nonsense.

The secular humanists are bullies. They are intolerant bullies. They claim they just don't believe in religion. But they sure spend a lot of time attacking Christianity. They're cool with every other religion, they just hate Jesus Christ. Those are the ones trying to intimidate people. The sodomite bullies.

Town Heretic
July 10th, 2015, 06:50 PM
What an atheist may hope for imo isn't necessarily what must therefore be believed as actually true.
I like the sentiment, but it doesn't really work well with the conclusion.

Hoping for a god to exist doesn't negate an atheistic conclusion.
You may have missed my point, but I'm reading along so let's see.


If I've understood you TH, you perhaps think that the benefits of believing in God make disbelief somewhat invalid, while I don't agree.
Ah. What I believe is that the benefits of belief are superior to holding a contrary view and that there being no empirical and objective means to settle the issue, embracing a want in that particular runs contrary to reason and your own good. It is to begin with an argument from utility and an appeal to the choice that best serves our being.

At the very least faith is an enormous, positive and extended middle finger to the alternative and a rational, real possibility of more. I'm deadly disinterested in the coy fumbling of "Which?" because at the very least that which is answered by, "Your highest and best estimation of God."

Now many of my brethren will find that objectionable. I don't care. No one learns the joy of running by beginning with a marathon. M. Scott Peck began his spiritual quest as an atheist, then a Buddhist and finally a Christian.


I think we have no reason to be here if we can somehow make ourselves believe something because it is personally beneficial and not because it is necessarily true.
When the negative which is no more or less certain than the better context a reasonable man chooses the better context. If we accept defeatism, nihilism, a pointless, happenstance existence then and only then do we have no reason to be here.


Atheists aren't typically attracted to nihilism or godlessness, atheism is merely a conclusion of disbelief made from a perceived lack of godly evidence. An atheist's position is typically provisional until something changes that perception.
In my less than narrow experience that often isn't the case. It's frequently as not rooted in a demand that is by its nature an impossibility, not because the thing considered is impossible, but because the request is.

Maybe, at the heart of it, what an atheist really hopes for is a miracle.

exminister
July 10th, 2015, 06:56 PM
You hope all of the time. When you get on an airplane you hope that the pilot is not going to dive bomb your plane into a mountain.

Everyone has faith. :dizzy: You are your own god or God is your God (Ps. 73:6).


That is not faith. That is expectation. I expect a pilot to fly the plane to the destination I paid for. That statistically is what happens. I expect it. Faith in God is entirely different. I can believe and trust in God when everything is contrary to it. The book of Job is a great example of faith. No one around Job believed he should have faith in God. They said curse God and die. But in spite of all evidence Job believed. Abraham, Moses, Jesus and many, many more demonstrated faith in God, which is nothing like expecting your car to start in the morning. Treating faith like expectation cheapens it.

noguru
July 10th, 2015, 06:58 PM
Who is doing the intimidating?

People like you, who refuse to admit when you are wrong. A person who stands up for themselves will do just that. But if reason and logic cannot convince a person of their error, then they are being a bully. Despite their attempts to try and claim divine authority.



Maybe the ones handing out fines and ruining businesses over cakes.

When people stand up for their rights, they often step on the toes of people who use to bully them. And of course the bullies love to be overly dramatic about perceived offenses. That is the MO of a bully.



The ones ridiculing anyone who doesn't believe in foolish atheist nonsense.

:(

Right, says a flat earther. Who is convinced that atheists do not want an accurate conception of their environment.

:rotfl:



The secular humanists are bullies.

Only to the people who use to or still try to bully them.



They are intolerant bullies.

Intolerant of the intolerance that has been shown to them, by self righteous religious folk claiming divine authority for their transgressions.



They claim they just don't believe in religion.

They don't believe any religion.



But they sure spend a lot of time attacking Christianity.

They attack illogical, tyrannical Christians who try to force them into submission to their theistic ideas, yes. When a person stands up to a bully it is very often the bully who starts complaining about mistreatment.



They're cool with every other religion, they just hate Jesus Christ.

They don't hate Jesus. They are just fed up with morons like you trying to run the world with lame claims of divine authority.



Those are the ones trying to intimidate people. The sodomite bullies.

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

serpentdove
July 10th, 2015, 07:00 PM
:up:

Well it certainly beats the all glimpses we have had into your heart.
:yawn: Ro 8:7, HCSB

Daniel1611
July 10th, 2015, 07:04 PM
Who needs to be stood up to are the sodomites bullies who want to teach kids to be vile, filthy homos or cross dresser. Some homo is suing a bible publisher for the anti gay verses in the Bible. That's really standing up for free speech by this so called liberal.
If our country was really run by real Christians like you claim, there wouldn't be any homos in this country.

noguru
July 10th, 2015, 07:08 PM
:yawn: Ro 8:7

Do you even understand that verse?

noguru
July 10th, 2015, 07:11 PM
Who needs to be stood up to are the sodomites bullies who want to teach kids to be vile, filthy homos or cross dresser.

Do you have any significant evidence that homosexuality can be taught or is a choice? I certainly do not think my heterosexuality was a choice. It just seems natural to me. I am attracted to the opposite gender.

noguru
July 10th, 2015, 07:12 PM
Some homo is suing a bible publisher for the anti gay verses in the Bible. That's really standing up for free speech by this so called liberal.


Citation please.

Daniel1611
July 10th, 2015, 07:13 PM
Do you have any significant evidence that homosexuality can be taught or is choice? I certainly do not think my heterosexuality was a choice. It just seems natural to me. I am attracted to the opposite gender.

The Bible says being a sodomite is unnatural. That's my evidence. I dont need some sodomite researcher to pretend they have evidence for anything. I believe the Bible because it is true. If you don't believe e the Bible, you are a fool.

noguru
July 10th, 2015, 07:15 PM
The Bible says being a sodomite is unnatural. That's my evidence. I dont need some sodomite researcher to pretend they have evidence for anything. I believe the Bible because it is true. If you don't believe e the Bible, you are a fool.

Folks, I rest my case.

Daniel1611
July 10th, 2015, 07:17 PM
Citation please.

http://dailyheadlines.net/2015/07/gay-man-files-70m-suit-against-bible-publishers-over-homosexual-verses/#

Easy Google search is easy.

Daniel1611
July 10th, 2015, 07:18 PM
Folks, I rest my case.

Rest your case that you're a fool.

noguru
July 10th, 2015, 07:19 PM
Rest your case that you're a fool.

Coming from you I take that as a shinning endorsement, thank you.

serpentdove
July 10th, 2015, 07:21 PM
[Your pilot doesn't crash into a mountain] "That is not faith. That is expectation." You expect to get to your destination safely. If your pilot misguides you, your expectation is not met. If you take an aspirin for a headache you have faith that it is not arsenic. If you are right, no more headache. If you are wrong, you're dead. Who or what you put your faith in matters.


"I expect a pilot to fly the plane to the destination I paid for. That statistically is what happens. I expect it. Faith in God is entirely different. I can believe and trust in God when everything is contrary to it." If everything is contrary to it to your mind, you're not a Christian (Heb 11:1) and you just so happen to identify as a Leftist here (Eccl 10:2, Jn 10:10, Mt 25:41).


"The book of Job is a great example of faith. No one around Job believed he should have faith in God." His friends had bad theology (Jb 4:1–8; 8:1–6; 11:1–20) and his wife was evil (Jb 2:9).


"They said curse God and die." Job's loser :loser: for a wife said that (Job 2:9).


"But in spite of all evidence Job believed." What do you mean in spite of? :dizzy: Jb 42:8 He was a man of faith (Jb 19:23–27). He humbled himself before the Lord (Job 42:1–6) though not given all answers.

serpentdove
July 10th, 2015, 07:22 PM
Do you even understand that verse?

:yawn: Yes.

noguru
July 10th, 2015, 07:24 PM
I see that now since the atheists have answered about the hope they have, the tyrannical "Christians" have turned this thread into just another of the multitude of right wing political pulpits on this site. How utterly predictable.

noguru
July 10th, 2015, 07:28 PM
:yawn: Yes.

:yawn: Of course you do.

:rotfl:

Rusha
July 10th, 2015, 07:28 PM
I see that now since the atheists have answered about the hope they have, the tyrannical "Christians" have turned this thread into just another of the multitude of right wing political pulpits on this site. How utterly predictable.

Since these threads normally end with being told what we really believe and why we believe it, I didn't bother to respond.

serpentdove
July 10th, 2015, 07:31 PM
Since these threads normally end with being told what we really believe and why we believe it, I didn't bother to respond.

I've had it with Prager and his questions. :IA:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Id6LlobI75o/VQo8FyFNUCI/AAAAAAAAAsk/d9qP8Mi11Mc/s1600/windingroad.png

noguru
July 10th, 2015, 07:33 PM
http://dailyheadlines.net/2015/07/gay-man-files-70m-suit-against-bible-publishers-over-homosexual-verses/#

Easy Google search is easy.

Did you actually read and comprehend the article in your link?

Daniel1611
July 10th, 2015, 07:35 PM
Did you actually read and comprehend the article in your link?

Looks like some filthy sodomite is doing what they do.

noguru
July 10th, 2015, 07:36 PM
Since these threads normally end with being told what we really believe and why we believe it, I didn't bother to respond.

It is my claim that so called Christians like snakebird and Daniel1611 are so inept that they try to use a claim of belief in God to compensate for their own flaws/mental incapacity. And in doing so they give clear thinking Christians a bad name. People like snakebird and Daniel1611 might be saved, whatever that really means, but I hope part of that is an eventual awareness of where they have erred.

noguru
July 10th, 2015, 08:11 PM
Since these threads normally end with being told what we really believe and why we believe it, I didn't bother to respond.

Yes, and then they wonder why reasonable people realize their farce.

serpentdove
July 10th, 2015, 08:18 PM
[For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God Ro 8:7, HCSB] "Of course you do."

:rotfl:

:yawn: "Men love their sin. Hell and punishment don't change that." ~ John MacArthur Jn 3:19

everready
July 10th, 2015, 08:19 PM
It is my claim that so called Christians like snakebird and Daniel1611 are so inept that they try to use a claim of belief in God to compensate for their own flaws/mental incapacity. And in doing so they give clear thinking Christians a bad name. People like snakebird and Daniel1611 might be saved, whatever that really means, but I hope part of that is an eventual awareness of where they have erred.

Are you an atheist?


everready

noguru
July 10th, 2015, 08:32 PM
Are you an atheist?


everready

I was agnostic/atheist for 17 years (12 to 29) of my life. I can still recall very clearly my mind set during that time. I mentioned this in another post earlier in this thread. Even through those years I did recognize the value of Christ's ministry here on this earth, however.

noguru
July 10th, 2015, 08:33 PM
:yawn: "Men love their sin. Hell and punishment don't change that." ~ John MacArthur Jn 3:19

Your confusion (of God's word verses your unsubstantiated opinion) knows no bounds. Continuously contributing scripture and the Gospel will not change that.

serpentdove
July 10th, 2015, 08:39 PM
Are you an atheist?:Popcorn:


I was agnostic/atheist for 17 years (12 to 29) of my life. I can still recall very clearly my mind set during that time. I mentioned this in another post earlier in this thread. Even through those years I did recognize the value of Christ's ministry here on this earth, however."If you were arrested for being a Christian, would there be enough evidence to convict you?" ~ Adrian Rogers

everready
July 10th, 2015, 08:41 PM
I was agnostic/atheist for 17 years (12 to 29) of my life. I can still recall very clearly my mind set during that time. I mentioned this in another post earlier in this thread. Even through those years I did recognize the value of Christ's ministry here on this earth, however.

I've known a few atheists is why i asked.


everready

Rusha
July 10th, 2015, 08:42 PM
:Popcorn:

"If you were arrested for being a Christian, would there be enough evidence to convict you?" ~ Adrian Rogers

That would depend on the evidence and jury ...

serpentdove
July 10th, 2015, 08:48 PM
[Ro 8:7, HCSB, "Men love their sin. Hell and punishment don't change that." ~ John MacArthur Jn 3:19] "Your confusion (of God's word verses your unsubstantiated opinion) knows no bounds."

:yawn: Proof please (Eph 4:14). :peach:

Re 20:6

serpentdove
July 10th, 2015, 08:55 PM
That would depend on the evidence and jury ...

"So that's supposed to be a jury of my peers?" :shocked: ~ Carl Lee, A Time to Kill (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMGMZsKXz94)

MichaelCadry
July 10th, 2015, 09:07 PM
Well, first of all, as an atheist, I simply have not been convinced to believe in any god. That doesn't mean that I am claiming that gods do not in fact exist. How should I know? For all I know, there could be hundreds out there! I just have not had any personal experience of any god or have seen any convincing evidence yet to believe in any particular god.

I don't know about you, but my beliefs are the result of being convinced (by evidence/experience) of something's truth. I cannot choose to believe in the existence of something based on fear, or even based on my wants/desires. Heck, there are some things that I believe in that I would rather not believe, but have no choice based on the overwhelming evidence.

Even if someone were to offer me 10 million dollars to believe that I was a porcupine, for example, I couldn't make myself actually believe. Would I want to believe it? Heck yeah! Could I “try” to believe? Yes! Could I pretend to believe it? Sure! But would I actually believe it? No. Like I said before, wanting to believe something does not change the fact that I do not actually believe it.

Believing that something exists should be independent of whether or not that belief could give you comfort or fulfill a desire. Either you are convinced by evidence that a particular god exists, or you are not convinced and you remain without belief (as a non-believer; atheist) until such time as you are provided with such. For instance, if I was convinced by evidence that a two headed tyrant god existed, I would have no choice but to believe that it existed, period....regardless of how much I hoped that it did not.


Dear flintstoned,

How are you doing? I have a lot of love inside and it's due to my God. I am an unusual case. There's a reason for it that you probably won't believe, so we'll have to discuss that another time. Let's just suffice it that I have been visited by the Lord God twice, I've had a number of angelic visits and visions/out-of-body experiences, and been visited by the Holy Ghost twice.

One night, the Lord told me to go to NYC after a vision I'd had about CA having all of their brush fires. I won't go into it. Nevertheless, there were two angel visits in that vision alone. Remind me to tell you about it later. What I'm leading up to saying is that, I was working at ABC-TV in Manhattan, NYC on Avenue of the Americas. I was working in the Accounting Dept. and was an assistant of one of the Comptrollers there. I sent a letter to a New York Daily News reporter about some of the things I'd experienced from God. He sent me a letter back saying he did not see a story in what I'd sent him. I was near furious. I asked God what to do. The Lord said to write this reporter back and tell him that I (God) shall send 7 inches of snow upon his Daily News Bldg. within 48 hours of him receiving my letter, so that he would know that God was with me and the testimony that I was sharing with him was true.

Well, it wasn't long, the snow began falling the morning that the reporter received my letter. All day it snowed and after work, at the end of the day, 7 inches had fallen and the snow ceased. I got home from work and my girl friend said, "Michael, Michael, some reporter's been calling you all day and wants you to call him back ASAP." Well, I went to go dial the number and the phone rang. It was the reporter and he was terrified and said to not pray to God for him anymore and what did I want. I asked for a 3-hour interview. I got it within a couple days. After sharing my testimony about my experiences with him, he still said he could not help me because it wasn't his newspaper. Talk about daft. He said I would have to talk to his boss, the publisher's boss. I declined to go that route because I would have had to talk to the highest echelons of the Daily News and I did not want to.

The next day, a newspaper article in the rival newspaper had a front page article on the snow, that it was 7 inches. I have a copy of my letter to the reporter, and a copy of the news article that said the 7 inches had fallen. I can send you a copy of each, and other things besides that (more Proof Pages) and an autographed copy of my book. It will cost me $15 roughly, but for you, I will do it for Free. Just PM me and let me know your mailing address. That experience is just the very tip of the iceberg. I've had many things happen to me that have been astounding. It has been a life. The Lord told me that I was one of two witnesses written of in Rev. 11:3KJV. I would love to know who the other one is, but He won't tell me. I've tried up and down, and sideways, to get my testimony into the newspapers, but none will help. So, the people of the world will not get much of a warning about Armageddon as they deserve. That is how this world works. I believe Armageddon will be this Autumn. Are you ready??

Okay, this is long. I've got to close. Tons of things I could explain to you but probably never in such detail. For that, I would have to live with you and talk with you every day for a week, at least. Of course, we know, that's not going to happen. I'm in Phoenix now, and was sent here once again by the Lord. I wanted to go to Miami, FL., but I did not get my wish. Listen, I'd best close for now. God Be With You and remember, there is proof out there. You just don't accept it or know where to look for it, eh? Tell me which?

Much Love, In Christ,

Michael

:angel: :angel: :cloud9: :rapture:

noguru
July 10th, 2015, 09:17 PM
:yawn: Proof please (Eph 4:14). :peach:

Re 20:6

:yawn:
I'm not concerned about your approval. In fact the only thing that matters is my relationship with Him.

Your continued misuse of scripture is not evidence that you are any judge of such issues.

Your continued confusion about things that are quite clear to rational people is enough evidence to realize your observational skills are not sufficient.

Oh and now we are going to hear how "I am crazy for Jesus." How utterly convenient to avoid your own errors in perception.

noguru
July 10th, 2015, 09:31 PM
I've known a few atheists is why i asked.


everready

I still know quite a few. In fact I debate (not during work hours of course) the ones in my professional life occasionally. It usually ends up being an agree to disagree/friendly exit from the argument. I can certainly see things from their perspective, which is more than I can say for most people who claim to be Christian. And they do not try to claim that "You never were an atheist" or any of the non sense I get from some so called Christians.

I am just being honest here. And there is no need to take this as an endorsement of atheism, and/or a way of denouncing my faith.

Hedshaker
July 11th, 2015, 01:26 AM
So with our logic we see cause and effect which would go on for infinity as you say, which then off course breaks down cause and effect to one uncaused phenomena. God.

Well, you could start off by pointing out where I said, "we see cause and effect go on for infinity". I neither said nor implied any such thing, only that the notion of infinity may well be more than we understand.

Also, you're engaging in bald claims again. Got any evidence for any of that God stuff? Cause if you don't then you can not lay claim to the existence of any creator god, let alone one in particular, that just happens, by shear luck, to be the one you already believe in. Let's face it, all this "one uncaused cause" blurb is nothing more than the same tired old apologetics we've all heard a thousand times before. Give it a rest. No one knows anything about pre Big Bang existence including the most advanced scientific minds on this planet, let alone a few heavily biased theologians. Have the grace to admit you don't know when you don't actually know.


Who is beyond all that we can experience and may in fact as some physicists guess lie in another dimension beyond our perception.

You mean like never never land? I have never much cared for heaven or hell but clearly, cloud cuckoo land exists right here on Earth.

alwight
July 11th, 2015, 03:55 AM
Ah. What I believe is that the benefits of belief are superior to holding a contrary view and that there being no empirical and objective means to settle the issue, embracing a want in that particular runs contrary to reason and your own good. It is to begin with an argument from utility and an appeal to the choice that best serves our being.It seems rather strange to me anyway that anyone could have an actual one to one relationship with a godly being that seems so depended so much on one's own needs and desires, rather than in that being having a completely separate identity. It seems more about what goes on in the individual own mind than anything based on a more factual reality that we can all observe. Which is perhaps why there is never likely to be a religious consensus anytime soon?


At the very least faith is an enormous, positive and extended middle finger to the alternative and a rational, real possibility of more. I'm deadly disinterested in the coy fumbling of "Which?" because at the very least that which is answered by, "Your highest and best estimation of God."
A typical atheist anyway doesn't need to be concerned with estimations of God of course, which, but for the absence of a more testable or demonstrable reality, remain imo personal and subjective and perhaps fashioned to some degree by the individual to suit themselves.


Now many of my brethren will find that objectionable. I don't care. No one learns the joy of running by beginning with a marathon. M. Scott Peck began his spiritual quest as an atheist, then a Buddhist and finally a Christian.If life is a journey then some of us will no doubt often change our minds along the way based on different times perceptions and circumstances. Where that might leave us in a search for an ultimate truth I wouldn't like to say.



When the negative which is no more or less certain than the better context a reasonable man chooses the better context. If we accept defeatism, nihilism, a pointless, happenstance existence then and only then do we have no reason to be here.Sadly however we don't get to choose our own reality, we have to deal with what we got. I think that trying to believe it is something else may help some to function more smoothly but personally that doesn't really work for me.



Atheists aren't typically attracted to nihilism or godlessness, atheism is merely a conclusion of disbelief made from a perceived lack of godly evidence. An atheist's position is typically provisional until something changes that perception. In my less than narrow experience that often isn't the case. It's frequently as not rooted in a demand that is by its nature an impossibility, not because the thing considered is impossible, but because the request is.Religions exist to be attractive and to give life a supposed meaning, hope and a blueprint, so who in their right mind would ever choose atheism, all things being equal, when your local friendly religious belief can take away all the pain and worry for you? :think:
Unless the actual hard truth, warts and all, has some value maybe?


Maybe, at the heart of it, what an atheist really hopes for is a miracle.
cAMLa5ZC-B4

noguru
July 11th, 2015, 04:10 AM
cAMLa5ZC-B4

I like the way The Grateful Dead deliver that sentiment.

xVeAaWpQ9fE

noguru
July 11th, 2015, 04:22 AM
Religions exist to be attractive and to give life a supposed meaning, hope and a blueprint, so who in their right mind would ever choose atheism, all things being equal, when your local friendly religious belief can take away all the pain and worry for you? :think:
Unless the actual hard truth, warts and all, has some value maybe?


I have never understood why some religious folk have a distrust for science, or greater intellect for that matter.



Everything is easy once you have learned the proper methodology.




Till things we have never seen will seem familiar.


Perhaps it is contempt prior to investigation. Perhaps it is fear of discovering certain aspects of one's own inner character. Perhaps it is a little of both.

At any rate the Bible is quite clear about this, though many Christians cannot admit the truth of these words.



Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.


And it might be that once a thing is known that it no longer requires faith. Yet there will always be things unknown to the finite fallible human mind. My problem with some of the faithful is that they very often sacrifice what can be known for what they, through a hazy predetermination of value, originally desired. They are often guilty of sacrificing accuracy for the illusion of absolute certainty from the very beginning. Rather than being honest and courageous in admitting their doubt and level of certainty.

chrysostom
July 11th, 2015, 04:35 AM
Religions exist to be attractive and to give life a supposed meaning,

do you have a reasonable explanation for our existence?

noguru
July 11th, 2015, 04:52 AM
do you have a reasonable explanation for our existence?

I am thinking that anyone who holds an opinion, believes that opinion to be "reasonable". Of course that is in the realm of subjective perspective. The real question is how closely that "subjective perspective" translates into the objective reality.

chrysostom
July 11th, 2015, 05:00 AM
I am thinking that anyone who holds an opinion, believes that opinion to be "reasonable". Of course that is in the realm of subjective perspective. The real question is how closely that "subjective perspective" translates into the objective reality.

your question is not reasonable
and
explains nothing

noguru
July 11th, 2015, 05:11 AM
your question is not reasonable
and
explains nothing

It's not a question. It was a rhetorical question, which is really an investigative statement. Perhaps that is why you are not seeing the reasoning there.

Are you being as reasonable as is humanly possible?

Now that is a question. Probably the most important question you can answer for yourself each and every day.

Just a curiosity, but what confuses you about "subjective perspective" and "objective reality", would you like me to elaborate?

chrysostom
July 11th, 2015, 05:18 AM
It's not a question. It was a rhetorical question, which is really an investigative statement. Perhaps that is why you are not seeing the reasoning there.

Are you being as reasonable as is humanly possible?

Now that is a question. Probably the most important question you can answer for yourself each and every day.

Just a curiosity, but what confuses you about "subjective perspective" and "objective reality", would you like me to elaborate?

I can see you are having fun putting words together
and
I will always be happy to answer a reasonable question

noguru
July 11th, 2015, 05:21 AM
I can see you are having fun putting words together
and
I will always be happy to answer a reasonable question

Words mean things. The meaning of the words I have chosen is quite clear. If you are confused, or find some inadequacy in their formulation you could try to add to a productive discourse by pinpointing your objections.

So if you are certain that is unreasonable you would be able to be more specific as to why it is unreasonable. The fact that you do not even try, means you are not trying to be reasonable.

But as I have pointed out earlier this seems to be the MO of people who often sacrifice accuracy for an illusion of certainty. And in the end you only do yourself a disservice. Be well my friend.

chrysostom
July 11th, 2015, 06:42 AM
people who often sacrifice accuracy for an illusion of certainty.

now that is a good one
you like the word certain
you used it twice
but
seems only to be applied to me
I don't use that word, I am never certain
but
I do have reasonable expectations when it comes to what I think and believe
I do use and like the word illusion
but
I am careful how I use it
illusions can and should be reasonable

MrDeets
July 11th, 2015, 06:56 AM
You hope all of the time. When you get on an airplane you hope that the pilot is not going to dive bomb your plane into a mountain.

"Hope is the last thing a person does before they're defeated" -Henry Rollins I DO NOT hope. I know, from my experience on past flights, that it is unlikely. I know, due to the statistics carried by the FAA, that it is unlikely. I know the amount of testing and scrutiny my Uncle(who has been a commercial and private pilot for 20+ years) goes through to keep his license. I know, that there are no mountains between DFW and Houston, and since that's really the only flying I'll be doing, I'm definitely not hoping on that account.


Everyone has faith. :dizzy: You are your own god or God is your God (Ps. 73:6). How uncharacteristically(:Plain:) assumptive of you. :rotfl:


Internal testimony (Ro 2:15), external testimony (Ps 19:1) and the scriptures (Jas 1:18). You are without excuse (Ro 1:20).

"I have seen your heart and it is mine." -Voldemort, Deathly Hallows. I can quote random stuff from books too. Is it authoritative?


Not asking if you believe. We know you do not believe. :rolleyes: Asking do you hope you are right. :freak:


I don't have hope in any regard when it comes to your book. I don't hope I'm right. I have no need for hope.


You can say that you refuse to answer the question. :chz4brnz: No need. I've answered.

alwight
July 11th, 2015, 07:23 AM
do you have a reasonable explanation for our existence?
No.
Other than perhaps that "chance" might be as reasonable a suggestion as any.

noguru
July 11th, 2015, 08:06 AM
now that is a good one
you like the word certain
you used it twice
but
seems only to be applied to me
I don't use that word, I am never certain
but
I do have reasonable expectations when it comes to what I think and believe
I do use and like the word illusion
but
I am careful how I use it
illusions can and should be reasonable

Thanks.

serpentdove
July 11th, 2015, 08:30 AM
"I'm not concerned about your approval." Why would you be? Jn 13:15 :juggle:


"In fact the only thing that matters is my relationship with Him." Your daddy? :Shimei: Jn 8:44

"Your continued misuse of scripture..." :yawn: Proof please (Eph 4:14). :peach:


"...is not evidence that you are any judge of such issues." Titus 2:15

http://i.imgur.com/da8aKQ4.gif

"Your continued confusion about things..." :yawn: Proof please (Eph 4:14). :peach:


"...[A]are quite clear to rational people..." :yawn: 2 Ti 1:7


"...[Y]our observational skills are not sufficient." :yawn: Eph. 1:18

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e195/PrimroseSue/Smileys/11aeg03jpg_zps8f9e6d03.gif


"Oh and now we are going to hear how "I am crazy for Jesus."" Pr 26:4 :juggle:


"How utterly convenient to avoid your own errors in perception." Jm3zV1pCTQ8

Jamie Gigliotti
July 11th, 2015, 08:39 AM
No, you could also lose if you have chosen the wrong God, of which there are many, all of whom are claimed to be the one true God by their followers. And the only difference between you and I is that I reject one more god than you. This isn't rocket science.



They are prepared to lay down their lives for their beliefs, as are many others, which is exactly the same regardless of who is making the claims. You have no sound evidence for the veracity of truth claims made by ancient anonymous authors but that you chose one faith belief over another.



And yet we do not see them converting in droves, do we? They are theists just like you yet they choose to edge their bets on mutually exclusive faith stories. If you take issue with the finer points involved you should take it up with them because I don't buy any of it. What you need to understand James is that proselytising, preaching and apologetics is for bolstering the confirmation bias of theists, not sceptics and atheists. I've already heard it all before, many times and I'm no more convinced now than ever I was.

If you sincerely seek the Truth Tm then what could possibly be wrong with taking a critical study of what you believe? And from sources outside of the Christian Apologetics fraternity. Start with the history of your religion and seek genuine (or as near as possible) contemporary, historical evidence to back up the stories that you now hold dear. Did someone really come back to life after being clinically dead for three days? Did someone really go around performing miracles all over the place? Did someone really do a gravity defying walk on water, feed 5000 people on a fish sandwich? Try to dig out neutral sources, or as near as you can get. Not all Biblical criticism is atheistic propoganda.

Was there really any eye witnesses to these events or did someone simply embellish the stories over time through word of mouth? Chinese whispers!. We both know there are no original Bible writings but surly, if it's all true, there must be some contemporary evidence.

And remember, this is not about bolstering existing cherished beliefs, it is a search for truth, no matter what. You are seeking extra biblical evidence :up:

If you already have the Truth then there is nothing to fear, right?

It's up to you of course but for me the truth is way more important than anything I believe, or disbelieve. I am more than willing to investigate sound, falsifiable evidence. But as for proselytising, preaching and apologetics..... don't waste you breath on those if you wish to engage educated sceptics.

Cheers :up:

Good luck.

Do you discount what Christ has done personally for many alive today? I have zero doubts about what the truth is.

You agreed we have a moral compass. Mine told me I was not good. It told me evil exists and was all around. And through my life until I was 33 I ignored the good leadings in my heart all too often. My shame weighing me down like a lead anvil at the bottom of the sea. At the same time lonliness, despair of life was flat out depressing! And through my thought that I should be able to fully understand God and why He did everything and How on my own accord with science and my own mind left me doing nothing but chasing my tail. Round and round and round I went....
And How He broke through to my heart was Him saying to me... "You know evil is real so stop ignoring that goodness is real, that I am real. Stop ignoring me. And BTW if you think you will ever figure everything out about me, that thought, your pride will only keep you from me."

He convinced me to take a step in trust, in faith. He did not disappoint. The burdens of shame were gone, I felt His love that nothing or noone can compare too. His Spiritual good presence can not be described in words, nothing could ever compare.

I do not discount science. I see how it backs up His existence. But science can not go to His realm quite possibly in another dimension pyscicists have hypothesized about, but none the less beyond this universe and yet the power that is every atom that holds every atom together. Science will not disprove or prove. Our hearts do. His presence does. I know He is true. I have experienced Him. You can call me whatever you like. But I am unequivocally testifying to the truth!

What other possible good reason could a God create life for other than personal relational Fatherly love. That is what God's word says He is; love. Many can testify to that truth.

serpentdove
July 11th, 2015, 08:49 AM
[You do not care about an ultimate justice? 2 Thess 1:9]

"I accept that life is basically unfair..."
Not asking if you believe life is unfair. Asking if you hope you are right that there is no God and therefore no reckoning in the afterlife (Isa 58:19).


"...and doesn't really last too long and then that's the end, nothing more." Not asking if you believe there is something more after death (Heb 9:27). Asking if you hope that you are right and that there are no consequences for the actions of evil men (Ro 8:7).


"I suggest however that we deal with this, the one life that we know we have, including the correction and prevention of injustice as best we can, while we can." Not seeking your political suggestions. Asking if you hope that you are right that God will not avenge (Ro 12:19).


"Imo claims of a supposed "ultimate justice" is perhaps religion's biggest lie and dirty trick." Not asking if you believe it's a lie. Asking if you hope it is a lie.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/36/5e/29/365e29bda0d7813e96a2601d6f8c2b25.jpg

alwight
July 11th, 2015, 10:12 AM
Not asking if you believe life is unfair. Asking if you hope you are right that there is no God and therefore no reckoning in the afterlife (Isa 58:19).

Not asking if you believe there is something more after death (Heb 9:27). Asking if you hope that you are right and that there are no consequences for the actions of evil men (Ro 8:7).

Not seeking your political suggestions. Asking if you hope that you are right that God will not avenge (Ro 12:19).

Not asking if you believe it's a lie. Asking if you hope it is a lie.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/36/5e/29/365e29bda0d7813e96a2601d6f8c2b25.jpgI think I did make it reasonably clear that I don't believe that there even can be such a thing as an afterlife "ultimate justice" based on this life, let alone hope for it, since what happens during this single lifetime measured against a supposed infinity and its unknowable possibilities is a false and invalid comparison.

Of course I would like justice done, but the injustices of this lifetime can only be genuinely assessed and compensated for during this lifetime in my view, given the particular circumstances that individuals have found themselves to be in.
For example I really don't know that anyone can be ultimately or eternally culpable if they happen to be, or become, mentally ill or psychotic.
We are all born with unique attributes on a very uneven playing field to which imo cannot be held eternally responsible for.

In an unknown and supposedly infinite life beyond this one I really don't have any idea what an "ultimate justice" would or could be, let alone decide if I hoped for it or not. Our view is rather restricted to this one mortal life alone.

However I hope for justice in this life and will not be not fobbed off with the lies and platitudes of those who in effect appease and perpetuate the injustices of this life but have no more knowledge of anything beyond it than I do. :Plain:

Town Heretic
July 11th, 2015, 10:14 AM
It seems rather strange to me anyway that anyone could have an actual one to one relationship with a godly being that seems so depended so much on one's own needs and desires, rather than in that being having a completely separate identity.
I don't think it should, given how we process and relate to anything in life. It's within the nature of the limited and imperfect, though the end of that relation is to be more in tune with the perfect and unlimited...in a way it's a parallel with Buddhist aspirations, which is why I suppose Merton sought a dialogue with them.


It seems more about what goes on in the individual own mind than anything based on a more factual reality that we can all observe.
All that really demonstrates is the Western reliance on the empirical, which we have to understand isn't the sum of and may only in fact be a reflection of what is.


Which is perhaps why there is never likely to be a religious consensus anytime soon?
I think the absence of consensus on God is mostly about pouring the perfect through the imperfect. I'm more surprised at how much we all agree upon.


If life is a journey then some of us will no doubt often change our minds along the way based on different times perceptions and circumstances. Where that might leave us in a search for an ultimate truth I wouldn't like to say.
Well, the only real journey has a destination. Else, you might as well be whirling. But as I believe in a purposed passage through the strictures of time and space, I take comfort in the notion that those who might be described as moving randomly may only be warming their muscles. :)


Sadly however we don't get to choose our own reality, we have to deal with what we got.
This isn't about choosing reality, but the context for the experience of it. And that is absolutely your choice.


I think that trying to believe it is something else may help some to function more smoothly but personally that doesn't really work for me.
Faith isn't something you "try" to believe or you're doing it wrong. It's the acceptance of a premise, a context, a frame, a point of reference. It isn't an effort and people who make it into one have chosen a peculiar ongoing series of choices instead.

Horrible notion, to my mind.


Religions exist to be attractive and to give life a supposed meaning, hope and a blueprint
That's one context. Here's another, religion exists as a purposed, joyful celebration of existence in recognition of the root and foundation of it. That's the blueprint. Following it is as simple as the Golden rule, awakening to the presence of God and seeing where that journey takes you.


, so who in their right mind would ever choose atheism, all things being equal, when your local friendly religious belief can take away all the pain and worry for you? :think:
Whoever told you that? You'll stump your toe, get irritating head colds, long and suffer the same way anyone does. Religion isn't a protection from, but an understanding of. Worry? It's useless for the most part, with or without God, but harder to hold onto with Him.


Unless the actual hard truth, warts and all, has some value maybe?
Well, we can't know what that is in the way an empiricist means it, only bits and pieces and speculation on the larger, to the extent that even has meaning.

But what if there's more to be had and a way to even make what is already apparent something greater and imbued with meaning? And what if the having is as simple as a contextual choice that robs us of literally nothing in the choosing except limitation in the name of a thing that cannot be demonstrated either?

Bon voyage, al. :cheers:

Hedshaker
July 11th, 2015, 10:29 AM
Do you discount what Christ has done personally for many alive today? I have zero doubts about what the truth is.

You agreed we have a moral compass. Mine told me I was not good. It told me evil exists and was all around. And through my life until I was 33 I ignored the good leadings in my heart all too often. My shame weighing me down like a lead anvil at the bottom of the sea. At the same time lonliness, despair of life was flat out depressing! And through my thought that I should be able to fully understand God and why He did everything and How on my own accord with science and my own mind left me doing nothing but chasing my tail. Round and round and round I went....
And How He broke through to my heart was Him saying to me... "You know evil is real so stop ignoring that goodness is real, that I am real. Stop ignoring me. And BTW if you think you will ever figure everything out about me, that thought, your pride will only keep you from me."

He convinced me to take a step in trust, in faith. He did not disappoint. The burdens of shame were gone, I felt His love that nothing or noone can compare too. His Spiritual good presence can not be described in words, nothing could ever compare.

I do not discount science. I see how it backs up His existence. But science can not go to His realm quite possibly in another dimension pyscicists have hypothesized about, but none the less beyond this universe and yet the power that is every atom that holds every atom together. Science will not disprove or prove. Our hearts do. His presence does. I know He is true. I have experienced Him. You can call me whatever you like. But I am unequivocally testifying to the truth!

What other possible good reason could a God create life for other than personal relational Fatherly love. That is what God's word says He is; love. Many can testify to that truth.

Yeah I get it. You're obsessively under the spell of your religion and you think your god is the one true, and real God. Good for you. Doesn't make it true though. There are other's, just as fanatical as you who feel the same about their religion and their god. You can't all be right but you can all be wrong. From the outside looking in it sure doesn't looks like any of you are right.

chrysostom
July 11th, 2015, 10:34 AM
Yeah I get it. You're obsessively under the spell of your religion and you think your god is the one true, and real God. Good for you. Doesn't make it true though. There are other's, just as fanatical as you who feel the same about their religion and their god. You can't all be right but you can all be wrong. From the outside looking in it sure doesn't looks like any of you are right.

what kind of God would look right to you?

alwight
July 11th, 2015, 10:53 AM
But what if there's more to be had and a way to even make what is already apparent something greater and imbued with meaning? And what if the having is as simple as a contextual choice that robs us of literally nothing in the choosing except limitation in the name of a thing that cannot be demonstrated either?

Bon voyage, al. :cheers:
For me TH real meaning is something that can be shared with others within, yes :yawn:, a common physical demonstrable framework of empirical evidence rather than just by those who agree to abide by a common doctrine or format of belief.
:e4e:

Hedshaker
July 11th, 2015, 11:01 AM
what kind of God would look right to you?

I couldn't begin to imagine. I don't feel inclined to concern myself with such questions any more than I would search the end of a rainbow for a pot of gold.

chrysostom
July 11th, 2015, 11:05 AM
I couldn't begin to imagine. I don't concern my self with such absurd questions.

that doesn't make sense
and
that is not surprising

chrysostom
July 11th, 2015, 11:08 AM
I couldn't begin to imagine. I don't feel inclined to concern myself with such questions any more than I would search the end of a rainbow for a pot of gold.

I wouldn't. It would feel a bit like looking for hairs on the palm of my hand, or the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

he keeps changing his post

Hedshaker
July 11th, 2015, 11:10 AM
that doesn't make sense
and
that is not surprising

Only answers you want to hear make sense to you, which is also not surprising.

Hedshaker
July 11th, 2015, 11:11 AM
I wouldn't. It would feel a bit like looking for hairs on the palm of my hand, or the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

he keeps changing his post

I miss read your initial question so had to redo the whole thing.

chrysostom
July 11th, 2015, 11:12 AM
I couldn't begin to imagine. I don't feel inclined to concern myself with such questions any more than I would search the end of a rainbow for a pot of gold.

which one do you like the best?

I wouldn't. It would feel a bit like looking for hairs on the palm of my hand, or the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

I couldn't begin to imagine. I don't concern my self with such absurd questions.

I couldn't begin to imagine. I don't feel inclined to concern myself with such questions any more than I would search the end of a rainbow for a pot of gold.

Hedshaker
July 11th, 2015, 11:18 AM
which one do you like the best?

I wouldn't. It would feel a bit like looking for hairs on the palm of my hand, or the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

I couldn't begin to imagine. I don't concern my self with such absurd questions.

I couldn't begin to imagine. I don't feel inclined to concern myself with such questions any more than I would search the end of a rainbow for a pot of gold.

Your original query was:


Originally Posted by chrysostom View Post
what kind of God would look right to you?

But I inadvertently read it as:

"What kind of God would you look for"

So once I realised my error I had to redo my answer, which took a while to get right.

It's been a long day.....:(

chrysostom
July 11th, 2015, 12:03 PM
From the outside looking in it sure doesn't looks like any of you are right.


what kind of God would look right to you?

let's try this again

why does it look like none of us are right?
if
you don't have any idea what God should look like

Hedshaker
July 11th, 2015, 02:18 PM
let's try this again

why does it look like none of us are right?

As you don't appear to agree on much among yourselves, how do you expect to persuade sceptics that your beliefs are true?


if
you don't have any idea what God should look like

Does anyone have any idea what a real God should look like? Having a religious belief, or a faith, and having an actual God are two entirely different things. And that's just one religion out of many. Yet, every last one of them is the one true god, the one true religion, the one true church.

Pretty soon there will be more denominations than there are churches.

exminister
July 11th, 2015, 03:01 PM
You expect to get to your destination safely. If your pilot misguides you, your expectation is not met. If you take an aspirin for a headache you have faith that it is not arsenic. If you are right, no more headache. If you are wrong, you're dead. Who or what you put your faith in matters.

If everything is contrary to it to your mind, you're not a Christian (Heb 11:1) and you just so happen to identify as a Leftist here (Eccl 10:2, Jn 10:10, Mt 25:41).

His friends had bad theology (Jb 4:1–8; 8:1–6; 11:1–20) and his wife was evil (Jb 2:9).

Job's loser :loser: for a wife said that (Job 2:9).

What do you mean in spite of? :dizzy: Jb 42:8 He was a man of faith (Jb 19:23–27). He humbled himself before the Lord (Job 42:1–6) though not given all answers.
Why do you dilute the meaning of faith with such triviality. Job appeared cursed not blessed. True faith saw through that. If my car continuously failed to start I would quickly lose your weak definition of "faith" in it. I would get another car. Job, Abraham, David, Jesus did not have your kind of "faith".

exminister
July 11th, 2015, 03:06 PM
http://dailyheadlines.net/2015/07/gay-man-files-70m-suit-against-bible-publishers-over-homosexual-verses/#

Easy Google search is easy.
It is a story from 2008 if you go to the Christian Post link in the article you reference. That is its only source. That is deceptive making it appear it was very recent weeks. The guy was a convict and looney. It didn't go anywhere. Next.

serpentdove
July 11th, 2015, 07:35 PM
"I think I did make it reasonably clear that I don't believe that there even can be such a thing as an afterlife "ultimate justice" based on this life, let alone hope for it..." Not asking what you believe. Asking if you hope you are right.


"...[S]ince what happens during this single lifetime measured against a supposed infinity and its unknowable possibilities is a false and invalid comparison." If the bible is true then this life (Jas 4:14) and its sufferings are not worthy to be compared to the glory which shall be revealed in us (Ro 8:18). We suffer (2 Co 11:23-28) but not like those who have no hope (1 Th 4:13).


"Of course I would like justice done but the injustices of this lifetime can only be genuinely assessed and compensated for during this lifetime in my view..." Your truth claim. Not asking for your truth claim. Asking for your hope claim.


"I hope for justice in this life..." That hasn't happen and won't happen. Man cannot rule and reign. The kingdom is coming (Re 20-21).

See:

The Coming Earthly Kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ, Part 1 Revelation 20 (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CB8QFjAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.gty.org%2FResources%2FPDF%2F Sermons%2F66-73&ei=FYChVab4K8XKogS41oPABg&usg=AFQjCNFD0eI9s1KP9F-k_JMutTASbi0GDA&bvm=bv.97653015,d.cGU) by John MacArthur


"For example I really don't know that anyone can be ultimately or eternally culpable if they happen to be, or become, mentally ill or psychotic." Men are not judged by what they don't know. They are judged by what they do know (Jn 9:39-41, 15:22, 24, Mt 11:20-24). "Not only is he judged for the disease; he is also judged that he refused the cure." ~ Adrian Rogers


"In an unknown and supposedly infinite life beyond this one I really don't have any idea what an "ultimate justice" would or could be..." Ro 2:15


"...let alone decide if I hoped for it or not." You are free to say I refuse to answer.


"Our view is rather restricted to this one mortal life alone." Ro 1:18


"...[I] will not be not fobbed off with the lies and platitudes of those who in effect appease and perpetuate the injustices of this life but have no more knowledge of anything beyond it than I do." Pr 9:10

When we are in control (Prov. 29:2) you are perturbed (Ro 8:7). You'll tolerate no encroachment on your idolatry (Jn 3:19).

serpentdove
July 11th, 2015, 08:10 PM
"Why do you dilute the meaning of faith with such triviality." The atheist claims he has no faith. He's got just as much faith as I do. He has faith that God does not exists and that this is all there is. I have faith that God does exists and that there is more after this life.


"Job appeared cursed not blessed." Job was a legalist. He believed he was a good person. God set him straight (Job 38–41).

"True faith saw through that." He had said to his dimwit wife: Shall we indeed accept good from God, and shall we not accept adversity? Jb 2:10. In general, if one lives a godly life he can expect good things but that is not always the case and we don't always understand why. He never got answers. He had faith anyway (Jb 19:23–27).

"If my car continuously failed to start I would quickly lose your weak definition of "faith" in it. I would get another car." That's what God-haters do. Their slot machine god didn't come through for them so they're finished with him. They pulled the handle and no money came out, no attractive spouse came out, no job or house or white picket fence came out.

"Job, Abraham, David, Jesus did not have your kind of "faith"." Tell me all about my faith. Jn 8:56, Ro 8:33

http://www.clipartguide.com/_thumbs/1386-0908-1916-4637.jpg

Town Heretic
July 11th, 2015, 10:04 PM
For me TH real meaning is something that can be shared with others within, yes :yawn:, a common physical demonstrable framework of empirical evidence rather than just by those who agree to abide by a common doctrine or format of belief.
:e4e:
I'd say we all have the former by experience but that it isn't a context, only the recognition of process.

As to the latter, you're speaking to something I didn't suggest for you. Not at this point anyway. :eek: You don't start a marathon at the tape.

exminister
July 12th, 2015, 12:15 AM
The atheist claims he has no faith. He's got just as much faith as I do. He has faith that God does not exists and that this is all there is. I have faith that God does exists and that there is more after this life.

Job was a legalist. He believed he was a good person. God set him straight (Job 38–41).
He had said to his dimwit wife: Shall we indeed accept good from God, and shall we not accept adversity? Jb 2:10. In general, if one lives a godly life he can expect good things but that is not always the case and we don't always understand why. He never got answers. He had faith anyway (Jb 19:23–27).
That's what God-haters do. Their slot machine god didn't come through for them so they're finished with him. They pulled the handle and no money came out, no attractive spouse came out, no job or house or white picket fence came out.
Tell me all about my faith. Jn 8:56, Ro 8:33

http://www.clipartguide.com/_thumbs/1386-0908-1916-4637.jpg

So you have "faith" that Vishnu does not exist? That is baffling. You cannot apply faith to it. You just want to make faith and belief synonymous. Abraham had faith in that God would provide a substitute for Isaac but he could not see that. It was not logical to even to think that. How can that be applied to not believing Vishnu exists? Can you find a Bible quote that says so and so had faith in not-God?

exminister
July 12th, 2015, 12:40 AM
Believing is seeing and expectation based on evidence - My car has started every morning and I expect the same today. If it stopped starting I would get it repaired or replace it.

Faith is not seeing and even going to the grave never seeing. It is way beyond belief.

Hebrews 11
1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

serpentdove
July 12th, 2015, 12:29 PM
"So you have "faith" that Vishnu does not exist?...Can you find a Bible quote that says so and so had faith in not-God?"
Vishnu does not exist (Ge 1:1, Ac 17:22-26).



"You just want to make faith and belief synonymous. Abraham had faith in that God would provide a substitute for Isaac but he could not see that." He knew if he put his son to death God would raise him again. He'd have to. God had promised to bless the world through him (Gen. 17:15–19).


"It was not logical to even to think that." It was not logical to think that he could have a children in his old age. Didn't Sarah laugh? Ge 18:13-14


"How can that be applied to not believing Vishnu exists?" Because I believe the bible (Ps 119:60). :Plain:

aikido7
July 12th, 2015, 01:14 PM
Traditional Christians as well as atheists take the Bible literally.

The atheist allows this interpretation from the Christian point of view and declares their interpretation nonsense.

And most Christians take the sacred and metaphorical language of their faith as factually correct.

Both sides are equally adamant and unyielding.

In my view, metaphor, myth and parable use poetic language that points to the underlying truth of the Bible. The Jews were the first to recognize that the great Yahweh is infinite and therefore beyond description by ordinary human terms and language.

Jamie Gigliotti
July 13th, 2015, 06:29 AM
Yeah I get it. You're obsessively under the spell of your religion and you think your god is the one true, and real God. Good for you. Doesn't make it true though. There are other's, just as fanatical as you who feel the same about their religion and their god. You can't all be right but you can all be wrong. From the outside looking in it sure doesn't looks like any of you are right.

Words in a book. Fantastical stories can not satisfy the longing of the heart and soul. Only love that is true. You quickly dismiss what you don't want to believe as 'under the spell'. If from outside your rightness meter doesn't gauge God by love; and love that is testified to, then quite possibly the meter is under a spell.

Hedshaker
July 13th, 2015, 08:01 AM
Words in a book. Fantastical stories can not satisfy the longing of the heart and soul. Only love that is true. You quickly dismiss what you don't want to believe as 'under the spell'. If from outside your rightness meter doesn't gauge God by love; and love that is testified to, then quite possibly the meter is under a spell.

Oh stop it, you'll have me crying in my coffee. You think you are special and favoured by the great invisible sky spirit who created the universes with supernatural magic.

Truth is you don't have a monopoly on anything, let alone love and spirituality. If you really think that giving your mind to a religion has done you any long term favours then have a look around. Plenty of people manage to turn their life around without giving credit to an imaginary friend or some pie-in-the-sky belief system. It's a bit like using a crutch for a broken leg and then growing unable to part with it when the leg gets better.

Spare me the emotional blurb, it grows wearisome. If you have testable, falsifiable evidence to back up your claims that would be good, cause for what you're doing you might as well throw monkey bones across the table.

Save the mindless preaching for someone who gives a toss, ta!

Cheers :thumb:

Jamie Gigliotti
July 13th, 2015, 09:05 PM
Oh stop it, you'll have me crying in my coffee. You think you are special and favoured by the great invisible sky spirit who created the universes with supernatural magic.

Truth is you don't have a monopoly on anything, let alone love and spirituality. If you really think that giving your mind to a religion has done you any long term favours then have a look around. Plenty of people manage to turn their life around without giving credit to an imaginary friend or some pie-in-the-sky belief system. It's a bit like using a crutch for a broken leg and then growing unable to part with it when the leg gets better.

Spare me the emotional blurb, it grows wearisome. If you have testable, falsifiable evidence to back up your claims that would be good, cause for what you're doing you might as well throw monkey bones across the table.

Save the mindless preaching for someone who gives a toss, ta!

Cheers :thumb:

I'm glad to be able to share the truth of my testimony with you.What happens with it is between you and God. Praying that you find the love that I have.

noguru
July 15th, 2015, 10:44 AM
I'm glad to be able to share the truth of my testimony with you.What happens with it is between you and God. Praying that you find the love that I have.

Is it really "love", or are you suffering from a delusion based on your dogmatic adherence to a religion?

Don't answer, because I already know your answer to this. This is a rhetorical question, designed to get people to think critically, if they are capable of that.

Jamie Gigliotti
July 15th, 2015, 10:53 AM
Is it really "love", or are you suffering from a delusion based on your dogmatic adherence to a religion?

Don't answer, because I already know your answer to this. This is a rhetorical question, designed to get people to think critically, if they are capable of that.

Dogma can't secure a heart filled with fear, insecurity, jealousy, resentment and hate... Only perfect agape love.

noguru
July 15th, 2015, 11:01 AM
Dogma can't secure a heart filled with fear, insecurity, jealousy, resentment and hate... Only perfect agape love.

In that case one does not need to rely on religion to find this perfect "agape love". I am very familiar with the Greek categories of love. As well as the intricate and nuanced history surrounding these human ideas. I hope you are not trying to baffle me with bull feces as a way to promote your specific brand of religion.

serpentdove
July 15th, 2015, 11:18 AM
Believing is seeing and expectation based on evidence...http://www.animated-smileys.com/emoticons/animated-smileys-housekeeping-125.gif

A few housekeeping items:

In the old days TOL sent an e-mail update for replies to one's post. They no longer do that so if you are continuing on in a discussion it is helpful to reply to the post so that it can be seen in hybrid mode.

For example, this comment (above) can more easily be found here (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4381840#post4381840).

aikido7
July 15th, 2015, 11:26 AM
Not do you think you're right--do you hope that you are right that there is no God and therefore no ultimate justice in the afterlife?I think the thrust of the attacks from atheists and agnostics comes from the idea that they are not able to take the metaphors and profound truths of Christianity seriously.

In this respect they are like the fundamentalists and the evangelicals. They can only see the literalism in a particular passage. They take sacred language as fact, not as mythical and profound truth.

Hedshaker
July 15th, 2015, 11:51 AM
I'm glad to be able to share the truth of my testimony with you.What happens with it is between you and God. Praying that you find the love that I have.

Preach it brother. Someone, somewhere must care.

If you really have the Truth tm then why are you so afraid of taking a critical look into your beliefs. Don't answer that. I know why. Cherished beliefs are way more important than any genuine search for truth.

Hawkins
July 15th, 2015, 12:06 PM
The simple truth is, humans rarely rely on evidence to reach a truth. Humans in majority rely heavily on faith to reach a truth at all.


No one has evidence about the existence of black holes except those maintaining a direct contact with black holes themselves, that is, the scientists acting as the witnesses between humans in majority and the truth itself.


To be more precise, humans rely heavily and sometimes exclusively on a small group of direct witnesses to reach a truth. This includes day to day news, human history as a whole, science (such as the existence of black holes, galaxies, particles, you name it), and more.

There is yet another kind of truths which are not supposed to be known by humans in a specific time frame. The existence of black holes is never made known to humans in stone age, so are angels/gods to today's humans. This kind of truths can only be reached by human witnessing, there's no other way round. Say, if you are sent back to humans in stone age, they have to choose to believe your testimonies about the existence of black holes in order to reach such a truth. There's no other way round. If you are put to that circumstance, you may well say to them that "you are the truth, the way and the life (if the existence of black holes does concern their lives)". Sound familiar?!

Jamie Gigliotti
July 15th, 2015, 12:17 PM
In that case one does not need to rely on religion to find this perfect "agape love". I am very familiar with the Greek categories of love. As well as the intricate and nuanced history surrounding these human ideas. I hope you are not trying to baffle me with bull feces as a way to promote your specific brand of religion.

I'm talking about fellowship, a close personal Love filled relationship with God through Jesus Christ. I've witnessed to me actually experiencing this and freedom from darkness in my heart; intense negative emotions from my pains inflicted by myself and others and the healing His love has brought me.

Jamie Gigliotti
July 15th, 2015, 12:19 PM
Preach it brother. Someone, somewhere must care.

If you really have the Truth tm then why are you so afraid of taking a critical look into your beliefs. Don't answer that. I know why. Cherished beliefs are way more important than any genuine search for truth.

My search for truth ended in His love.

noguru
July 15th, 2015, 12:21 PM
I'm talking about fellowship, a close personal Love filled relationship with God through Jesus Christ. I've witnessed to me actually experiencing this and freedom from darkness in my heart; intense negative emotions from my pains inflicted by myself and others and the healing His love has brought me.

I am quite aware of the feelings such a subjective perspective can bring about. It is still wise for a person to be courageous and honest with themselves about all the various angles to this perspective.

noguru
July 15th, 2015, 12:23 PM
The simple truth is, humans rarely rely on evidence to reach a truth. Humans in majority rely heavily on faith to reach a truth at all.


No one has evidence about the existence of black holes except those maintaining a direct contact with black holes themselves, that is, the scientists acting as the witnesses between humans in majority and the truth itself.


To be more precise, humans rely heavily and sometimes exclusively on a small group of direct witnesses to reach a truth. This includes day to day news, human history as a whole, science (such as the existence of black holes, galaxies, particles, you name it), and more.

There is yet another kind of truths which are not supposed to be known by humans in a specific time frame. The existence of black holes is never made known to humans in stone age, so are angels/gods to today's humans. This kind of truths can only be reached by human witnessing, there's no other way round. Say, if you are sent back to humans in stone age, they have to choose to believe your testimonies about the existence of black holes in order to reach such a truth. There's no other way round. If you are put to that circumstance, you may well say to them that "you are the truth, the way and the life (if the existence of black holes does concern their lives)". Sound familiar?!

You are conflating faith in a supernatural entity for which there is no empirical evidence, with confidence in a methodology based on natural explanations for which we have a multitude of evidence.

noguru
July 15th, 2015, 12:24 PM
My search for truth ended in His love.

So you are claiming to now have absolute knowledge of all things?

Hawkins
July 15th, 2015, 12:26 PM
You are conflating faith in a supernatural entity for which there is no empirical evidence, with confidence in a methodology based on natural explanations for which we have a multitude of evidence.

Human history as whole has no empirical evidence. The nature of the kind of truths defines whether it can be evidenced at all. More often, humans rely on the validity of witnessing to reach a truth. No witnessing can be made more valid then those martyred themselves for what is said and done. Today we have photos and videos supportive of our witnessing though.

Hedshaker
July 15th, 2015, 12:32 PM
My search for truth ended in His love.

Thanks for making my point :grave:

noguru
July 15th, 2015, 01:06 PM
Human history as whole has no empirical evidence. The nature of the kind of truths defines whether it can be evidenced at all. More often, humans rely on the validity of witnessing to reach a truth. No witnessing can be made more valid then those martyred themselves for what is said and done. Today we have photos and videos supportive of our witnessing though.

So lets delve into your brilliant epistemology claims even further. What objective criteria do you use to determine empirical evidence?

Oh and you completely avoided squarely addressing the main point I made, but that is not surprising given your chosen strategy in your attempts to convince others of the veracity of your claims.

Jamie Gigliotti
July 15th, 2015, 08:15 PM
I am quite aware of the feelings such a subjective perspective can bring about. It is still wise for a person to be courageous and honest with themselves about all the various angles to this perspective.

I understand my testimony can be written off as subjective, but I am testifying to my experience of Jesus's Objective truth, way and life. What is your experience with Jesus personally?

Jamie Gigliotti
July 15th, 2015, 08:20 PM
So you are claiming to now have absolute knowledge of all things?

I never said that.We know in part (1 Corinthians 13). If it were possible to know the objective truth of God's love the way Jesus and His disciples and I am saying... Could there be any greater knowledge on earth?

Jamie Gigliotti
July 15th, 2015, 08:23 PM
Thanks for making my point :grave:

If you ever experience His love and presence in your life here on earth you will be convinced as well.

Hedshaker
July 16th, 2015, 12:57 AM
If you ever experience His love and presence in your life here on earth you will be convinced as well.

Thanks but I prefer reality to the fundamentalist delusion. I know you are too far gone to see that now but hopefully one day you will.
https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/11146189_980654601986904_8457201744948834176_n.jpg ?oh=c5a89c4c1495307115a3ac23831f635a&oe=56169BC2


If you can preach then so can I ;)

Jamie Gigliotti
July 16th, 2015, 06:53 AM
Thanks but I prefer reality to the fundamentalist delusion. I know you are too far gone to see that now but hopefully one day you will.
https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/11146189_980654601986904_8457201744948834176_n.jpg ?oh=c5a89c4c1495307115a3ac23831f635a&oe=56169BC2


If you can preach then so can I ;)

Your reality consists of matter alone, that is nothing more than energy held together. Energy that has a source, that is held together by something. The question is what is the energy source, what holds it together?

I know you can see that human beings have a longing for love. Love that humans can not satisfy. Only God's perfect love can.

Hedshaker
July 16th, 2015, 07:26 AM
Your reality consists of matter alone, that is nothing more than energy held together. Energy that has a source, that is held together by something. The question is what is the energy source, what holds it together?

Energy cannot be created and cannot be destroyed, this much we know. If you assert this as ever been any different then present your evidence. Preaching won't help you on that one. Evidence or shut up about it, that simple.


I know you can see that human beings have a longing for love. Love that humans can not satisfy. Only God's perfect love can.

Yes, we've already established how easy mindless preaching is. Let me show you just how easy: there is no such thing as a perfect God and nothing is going on outside your head. You are wrong on a cosmic scale.

See how easy that is? Anyone can do it. Now, proving your assertion with evidence... that takes work, study, knowledge, a desire to find the truth and not being afraid of getting it wrong and changing your view.

So, evidence, got any?

alwight
July 16th, 2015, 08:44 AM
Your reality consists of matter alone, that is nothing more than energy held together. Energy that has a source, that is held together by something. The question is what is the energy source, what holds it together?

The not knowing part is something that I have no great problem with.
Where did energy come from?
Is a god the answer?
Is a god even an answer?
Is a god simply the point at which some people are content to draw the line and stop looking for answers.
Even the great genius Isaac Newton apparently tended to do that.

For me however unknowns can simply remain unknowns until a rational, convincing explanation comes along.
We really don't need imaginative conclusions, tall stories and myths.

In the meantime we can all wonder about the "ultimate question" and try to imagine what a possible reasonable explanation might be for ourselves, rather than adhere to those of the past.

Is the answer 42 or something rather more convoluted and supernatural say the involvement of an omnipotent deity, hosts of heavenly angels, an eternal afterlife, lake of fire, Satanic struggle of good v evil, 6 day creation, original sin, global flood, Ten Commandments, virgin birth, vicarious redemption, resurrection, salvation ...etc...? mmm:think:
:yawn:
42 it is then. :)

Jamie Gigliotti
July 16th, 2015, 08:47 AM
Energy cannot be created and cannot be destroyed, this much we know. If you assert this as ever been any different then present your evidence. Preaching won't help you on that one. Evidence or shut up about it, that simple.



Yes, we've already established how easy mindless preaching is. Let me show you just how easy: there is no such thing as a perfect God and nothing is going on outside your head. You are wrong on a cosmic scale.

See how easy that is? Anyone can do it. Now, proving your assertion with evidence... that takes work, study, knowledge, a desire to find the truth and not being afraid of getting it wrong and changing your view.

So, evidence, got any?

The big bang asserts that the whole universe all matter came from nothing.
Because you refute my testimony and countless others who testify to the healing God's love has brought them does not make it false.
'Taste and see that the Lord is good'

Your attitude is you don't like green eggs and ham and yet you have not tried them.

Seek God and His love and see for yourself. God created the natural world He is beyond it. With a naturalistic predjudice you are close minded to what created nature.

shagster01
July 16th, 2015, 08:50 AM
Not do you think you're right--do you hope that you are right that there is no God and therefore no ultimate justice in the afterlife?

Do you hope Buddha was wrong? Not do you think he was, but do you hope he was?

Jamie Gigliotti
July 16th, 2015, 08:54 AM
The not knowing part is something that I have no great problem with.
Where did energy come from?
Is a god the answer?
Is a god even an answer?
Is a god simply the point at which some people are content to draw the line and stop looking for answers.
Even the great genius Isaac Newton apparently tended to do that.

For me however unknowns can simply remain unknowns until a rational, convincing explanation comes along.
We really don't need imaginative conclusions, tall stories and myths.

In the meantime we can all wonder about the "ultimate question" and try to imagine what a possible reasonable explanation might be for ourselves, rather than adhere to those of the past.

Is the answer 42 or something rather more convoluted and supernatural say the involvement of an omnipotent deity, hosts of heavenly angels, an eternal afterlife, lake of fire, Satanic struggle of good v evil, 6 day creation, original sin, global flood, Ten Commandments, virgin birth, vicarious redemption, salvation ...etc...? mmm:think:
:yawn:
42 it is then. :)

When He convinces your heart to take a step trust and His love and presence comes upon you like a rushing wind you will be as convinced as I am.
When your heart has been freed from the burdens and anxities of life that smothered you will sing His praises l like I do.

alwight
July 16th, 2015, 09:00 AM
When He convinces your heart to take a step trust and His love and presence comes upon you like a rushing wind you will be as convinced as I am.
When your heart has been freed from the burdens and anxities of life that smothered you will sing His praises l like I do.
My heart pumps blood btw.
It seems to me that a deluded person may also have a similar conviction as you seem to have. Your counterpart in another religion may be as equally convinced or deluded as you are?

Jamie Gigliotti
July 16th, 2015, 09:47 AM
My heart pumps blood btw.
It seems to me that a deluded person may also have a similar conviction as you seem to have. Your counterpart in another religion may be as equally convinced or deluded as you are?

From free dictionary.com the third definition. The heart is "the vital center of one's being, one's emotions".

Everyone is deluded who rejects the truth. Jesus claimed to be "the way, the truth and the life". My testimony that the center of my being, my emotions have been completely changed by His presence in my life. He has unequivocally confirmed His statement to me to be absolutely true. You may say we are both crazy. By I hold to this:
"So Jesus said to the Jews who believed in him, 'If you abide in my word you are truly my my disciples, and you will know the truth and the truth shall set you free." John 8:31-32

Seek him out. You will not be disappointed.

Hedshaker
July 16th, 2015, 09:53 AM
The big bang asserts that the whole universe all matter came from nothing.

I'm sorry but the Big Bang event "asserts" nothing and, beyond theoretical speculation, the state of existence before the Big Bang is not known by anyone, not leading scientists and cosmologists, and certainly not by theologians and religionists.


Because you refute my testimony and countless others who testify to the healing God's love has brought them does not make it false.

And the countless other, mutually exclusive gods who's devotees lay testimony to must all be wrong, right? I just disbelieve in one more god than you. Why would I believe you and not them. You can't all be right but you certainly can all be wrong.


'Taste and see that the Lord is good'

Mindless preaching. Dismiss. Show me some evidence that this lord exists outside of your head and then we can discuss it.


Your attitude is you don't like green eggs and ham and yet you have not tried them.


How do you know what I've tried?


Seek God and His love and see for yourself. God created the natural world He is beyond it. With a naturalistic predjudice you are close minded to what created nature.

Me close minded!! talk about pot - kettle - black. Would you like to see "close minded? Here it is:

My search for truth ended in His love.That my friend is close minded.

And I can assure you there is no prejudice here. Present your evidence and I'll be happy to examine it. But note, I mean testable, falsifiable evidence. Religious platitudes and mindless preaching do not count.

Jamie Gigliotti
July 16th, 2015, 11:23 AM
I'm sorry but the Big Bang event "asserts" nothing and, beyond theoretical speculation, the state of existence before the Big Bang is not known by anyone, not leading scientists and cosmologists, and certainly not by theologians and religionists.



And the countless other, mutually exclusive gods who's devotees lay testimony to must all be wrong, right? I just disbelieve in one more god than you. Why would I believe you and not them. You can't all be right but you certainly can all be wrong.



Mindless preaching. Dismiss. Show me some evidence that this lord exists outside of your head and then we can discuss it.



How do you know what I've tried?



Me close minded!! talk about pot - kettle - black. Would you like to see "close minded? Here it is:
That my friend is close minded.

And I can assure you there is no prejudice here. Present your evidence and I'll be happy to examine it. But note, I mean testable, falsifiable evidence. Religious platitudes and mindless preaching do not count.

Ok then if your are open minded surrender yourself to Him, open your heart to him, seek Him and reach out to Him, turn to Him. Pray that He fills you with Himself and His love as you turn away from sin. If He is not real what would be the harm. He wants to be Lord of you.

The problem may be that you want to be king of your castle and you don't want to let go for nothing. The only thing that is keeping you from Him is you. He is waiting and He will be waiting for you. He loves you.

Hedshaker
July 16th, 2015, 11:55 AM
Ok then if your are open minded surrender yourself to Him, open your heart to him, seek Him and reach out to Him, turn to Him. Pray that He fills you with Himself and His love as you turn away from sin. If He is not real what would be the harm. He wants to be Lord of you.

It's not so open that my brain falls out. The only way to discovering what's real, IMO, is through critical examination and open minded scepticism. Scepticism is the heart of the scientific method btw. If what you assert is true then you should have no problem presenting the evidence, yet all you do is make bald assertions and engage in mindless preaching. Anyone can do that about anything. I. Don't. Buy. It. Please try to get that fact clear in your head. Preaching is for believers not Sceptics..... how many times must I repeat this?


The problem may be that you want to be king of your castle and you don't want to let go for nothing. The only thing that is keeping you from Him is you. He is waiting and He will be waiting for you. He loves you.

<preach mode> except there's nothing there. It's all in your head </preach mode> See, easy??

You have no argument, no evidence and no interest in rational discussion. If all you can do is preach then please find someone else to preach at. This sceptic doesn't much care for it. Thanks

Granite
July 16th, 2015, 11:57 AM
I'm talking about fellowship, a close personal Love filled relationship with God through Jesus Christ. I've witnessed to me actually experiencing this and freedom from darkness in my heart; intense negative emotions from my pains inflicted by myself and others and the healing His love has brought me.

If I didn't know better I'd say you're actually a semi-sentient cliche bot.

Jamie Gigliotti
July 16th, 2015, 12:16 PM
It's not so open that my brain falls out. The only way to discovering what's real, IMO, is through critical examination and open minded scepticism. Scepticism is the heart of the scientific method btw. If what you assert is true then you should have no problem presenting the evidence, yet all you do is make bald assertions and engage in mindless preaching. Anyone can do that about anything. I. Don't. Buy. It. Please try to get that fact clear in your head. Preaching is for believers not Sceptics..... how many times must I repeat this?



<preach mode> except there's nothing there. It's all in your head </preach mode> See, easy??

You have no argument, no evidence and no interest in rational discussion. If all you can do is preach then please find someone else to preach at. This sceptic doesn't much care for it. Thanks

If I was able to heal my suffering in life I would have done it long before He did. It's your choice to ignore my testimony. May God bless you and keep you.

Hedshaker
July 16th, 2015, 01:01 PM
If I was able to heal my suffering in life I would have done it long before He did.

Sounds like a kick in the teeth for every one who has managed to turn themselves around without the help of your "He", not to mention those who claim their own, mutually exclusive "He" did it for them. Funny that you never acknowledge this.


It's your choice to ignore my testimony.

Without evidence your so called "testimony" is useless. Sorry but truth isn't learned via bald assertion in my world.


May God bless you and keep you.

The dragon in my garage wishes you the same :)

noguru
July 16th, 2015, 01:08 PM
If I was able to heal my suffering in life I would have done it long before He did. It's your choice to ignore my testimony. May God bless you and keep you.

Have you ever heard of the "placebo effect"?

noguru
July 16th, 2015, 01:11 PM
Do you hope Buddha was wrong? Not do you think he was, but do you hope he was?

I am certain that you will not get a straight answer for this from snakebird. She is a slippery character.

alwight
July 16th, 2015, 01:19 PM
From free dictionary.com the third definition. The heart is "the vital center of one's being, one's emotions".Then you are perhaps referring to a metaphorical "heart", an emotional response in the brain perhaps rather than the organ for pumping blood.
What we would need to sort out however is whether there is any genuine reaction to an outside supernatural stimulus or is it perhaps just a self induced euphoria, or even a chemical imbalance?

It doesn't seem as though we can jointly test this against something more tangible, ...just your own particular emotional response to a particular religious belief.
A response that I tend to believe you would have had, had you been raised within a different religious culture, except you would be now preaching a rather different doctrine.

Maybe for some people simply proselytising gives them an emotional booster, and if the subjects could just help you to whip up the feeling even more who knows what might happen? :rolleyes:


Everyone is deluded who rejects the truth. Jesus claimed to be "the way, the truth and the life". My testimony that the center of my being, my emotions have been completely changed by His presence in my life. He has unequivocally confirmed His statement to me to be absolutely true. You may say we are both crazy. By I hold to this:
"So Jesus said to the Jews who believed in him, 'If you abide in my word you are truly my my disciples, and you will know the truth and the truth shall set you free." John 8:31-32

Seek him out. You will not be disappointed.
According to G.John 11:25 Jesus also said this (as written above the entrance to my local church graveyard): "Ego sum resurrectio et vita""I am the resurrection and the life".
People are afraid of death, which is why imo people will often cling to such words and have emotional responses to them. Clearly the four anonymous authors of the gospels rather knew which strings to pull to get the required emotional response?:Plain:

aikido7
July 16th, 2015, 01:53 PM
Do you hope Buddha was wrong? Not do you think he was, but do you hope he was?Heck, the Buddha was born walking, talking and preaching.

You have to admit that as far as religious metaphors go, that is a pretty cool one!

aikido7
July 16th, 2015, 03:21 PM
The simple truth is, humans rarely rely on evidence to reach a truth. Humans in majority rely heavily on faith to reach a truth at all.


No one has evidence about the existence of black holes except those maintaining a direct contact with black holes themselves, that is, the scientists acting as the witnesses between humans in majority and the truth itself.


To be more precise, humans rely heavily and sometimes exclusively on a small group of direct witnesses to reach a truth. This includes day to day news, human history as a whole, science (such as the existence of black holes, galaxies, particles, you name it), and more.

There is yet another kind of truths which are not supposed to be known by humans in a specific time frame. The existence of black holes is never made known to humans in stone age, so are angels/gods to today's humans. This kind of truths can only be reached by human witnessing, there's no other way round. Say, if you are sent back to humans in stone age, they have to choose to believe your testimonies about the existence of black holes in order to reach such a truth. There's no other way round. If you are put to that circumstance, you may well say to them that "you are the truth, the way and the life (if the existence of black holes does concern their lives)". Sound familiar?!The theology of bodily resurrection would seem to me to fit with this.

quip
July 16th, 2015, 03:44 PM
Does 1 + 1 hope to equal 2?

Jamie Gigliotti
July 16th, 2015, 08:12 PM
Have you ever heard of the "placebo effect"?

You identify as a Christian. You have problems with my experiences with Jesus. Why won't you tell us yours?

Jamie Gigliotti
July 16th, 2015, 08:13 PM
Sounds like a kick in the teeth for every one who has managed to turn themselves around without the help of your "He", not to mention those who claim their own, mutually exclusive "He" did it for them. Funny that you never acknowledge this.



Without evidence your so called "testimony" is useless. Sorry but truth isn't learned via bald assertion in my world.



The dragon in my garage wishes you the same :)

Witness testimony is evidence.

Jamie Gigliotti
July 16th, 2015, 08:20 PM
Then you are perhaps referring to a metaphorical "heart", an emotional response in the brain perhaps rather than the organ for pumping blood.
What we would need to sort out however is whether there is any genuine reaction to an outside supernatural stimulus or is it perhaps just a self induced euphoria, or even a chemical imbalance?

It doesn't seem as though we can jointly test this against something more tangible, ...just your own particular emotional response to a particular religious belief.
A response that I tend to believe you would have had, had you been raised within a different religious culture, except you would be now preaching a rather different doctrine.

Maybe for some people simply proselytising gives them an emotional booster, and if the subjects could just help you to whip up the feeling even more who knows what might happen? :rolleyes:


According to G.John 11:25 Jesus also said this (as written above the entrance to my local church graveyard): "Ego sum resurrectio et vita""I am the resurrection and the life".
People are afraid of death, which is why imo people will often cling to such words and have emotional responses to them. Clearly the four anonymous authors of the gospels rather knew which strings to pull to get the required emotional response?:Plain:

I considered myself a Christian my whole life and held to the Bibles words the whole time. It wasn't until I personally trusted Jesus and experienced His presence that my life changed.

noguru
July 16th, 2015, 09:32 PM
You identify as a Christian. You have problems with my experiences with Jesus. Why won't you tell us yours?

:rotfl:

I have problems with what? I think you are misrepresenting me as a defensive mechanism.

I asked you "If you have ever heard of the placebo effect? I don't think that means I have a problem. Can you answer?

Hedshaker
July 17th, 2015, 01:20 AM
Witness testimony is evidence.


We have no way of ascertaining if your testimony true, even if you think it is. And the same goes for those who testify for a competing religion.

In short, your claims, and similar claims by others are none falsifiable, so useless as evidence.

Jamie Gigliotti
July 17th, 2015, 04:41 AM
:rotfl:

I have problems with what? I think you are misrepresenting me as a defensive mechanism.

I asked you "If you have ever heard of the placebo effect? I don't think that means I have a problem. Can you answer?

Yes I have heard of it. My conclusion has been by the totality of your comments. Maybe I've misunderstood. I am sorry if I have.
I expected Jesus to help me for a long time before I trusted Him and felt His loving, indescribsle, freeing presence. The expectation wasn't met until I trusted Him and His words.

What has your experience with Him been?

Jamie Gigliotti
July 17th, 2015, 04:55 AM
Just as a lone witness in any situation that can not corroberated by other evidence such as other witnesses can not be proven. And such with each witness experiencing the same spiritual experience of heart transformation by the presence of Jesus the certainty becomes much likely. From people filled with hate to filled with love. Such as the former Slave trader turned minister John Newton the writer of 'Amazing Grace'.

noguru
July 17th, 2015, 07:09 AM
Yes I have heard of it. My conclusion has been by the totality of your comments. Maybe I've misunderstood. I am sorry if I have.
I expected Jesus to help me for a long time before I trusted Him and felt His loving, indescribsle, freeing presence. The expectation wasn't met until I trusted Him and His words.

What has your experience with Him been?

My experience has been of the educational variety, is intricate nuanced and perhaps more complex than most peoples. I can tell you this. I did not have to sign on to the politically unified stance of "orthodox" religion to be a witness. In fact I had to leave those ranks to find contentment.

I have also considered the "placebo effect" and I can honestly say I probably would not know the difference. But there is absolutely nothing I can do about that.

noguru
July 17th, 2015, 07:19 AM
Just as a lone witness in any situation that can not corroberated by other evidence such as other witnesses can not be proven. And such with each witness experiencing the same spiritual experience of heart transformation by the presence of Jesus the certainty becomes much likely. From people filled with hate to filled with love. Such as the former Slave trader turned minister John Newton the writer of 'Amazing Grace'.

I have never been a hateful person, even through my 17 years of agnosticism. I have a very empathetic nature towards others even when things are not going so well for me. But as a younger agnostic I did feel a certain amount of futility. Nowadays I can switch back and forth from a theistic perspective and an agnostic perspective and still not lose sight of what is important. Theism might have just been a tool for me to reach that, but again it is what it is. Keep in mind I have studied many religions as well.

How the 5 major religions spread. (https://www.facebook.com/businessinsider/videos/10152949760834071/?pnref=story)

Granite
July 17th, 2015, 07:31 AM
Just as a lone witness in any situation that can not corroberated by other evidence such as other witnesses can not be proven. And such with each witness experiencing the same spiritual experience of heart transformation by the presence of Jesus the certainty becomes much likely. From people filled with hate to filled with love. Such as the former Slave trader turned minister John Newton the writer of 'Amazing Grace'.

You know he continued as a slaver well after his conversion, right?

Hedshaker
July 17th, 2015, 07:53 AM
Just as a lone witness in any situation that can not corroberated by other evidence such as other witnesses can not be proven. And such with each witness experiencing the same spiritual experience of heart transformation by the presence of Jesus the certainty becomes much likely. From people filled with hate to filled with love. Such as the former Slave trader turned minister John Newton the writer of 'Amazing Grace'.

The problem with this is it doesn't explain those many people who say the same, but Attribute it to a different religion that has nothing to do with Christianity or Jesus. Nor does it explain how people with no religion at all can make big changes for the better, without any supernatural intervention.

This has been put to you many times now yet you choose not to address it. Until you do, with a plausible explanation, your point above remains moot. Whether you accept it or not the existence of the Christian God has not been established. Preaching warm and fuzzies proves nothing.

Jamie Gigliotti
July 17th, 2015, 08:48 AM
You know he continued as a slaver well after his conversion, right?

www.abolition.e2bn.org gives a concise synopsis of His history. You are correct the change in Him did take time.
Conversion is the start of the transforming work of the Holy Spirit in a believer's life. Faith and trust in Christ is growing entity if it is genuine. Or it may just be a hypocritical farce.

Granite
July 17th, 2015, 08:49 AM
www.abolition.e2bn.org gives a concise synopsis of His history. You are correct the change in Him did take time.
Conversion is the start of the transforming work of the Holy Spirit in a believer's life. Faith and trust in Christ is growing entity if it is genuine. Or it may just be a hypocritical farce.

Capital "H"? Is Newton a deity now or something?:AMR:

Jamie Gigliotti
July 17th, 2015, 09:05 AM
My experience has been of the educational variety, is intricate nuanced and perhaps more complex than most peoples. I can tell you this. I did not have to sign on to the politically unified stance of "orthodox" religion to be a witness. In fact I had to leave those ranks to find contentment.

I have also considered the "placebo effect" and I can honestly say I probably would not know the difference. But there is absolutely nothing I can do about that.

Thank you for sharing. I can tell it is heartfelt and honest.

I hope that you can tell that I am too.
I can honestly say Orthodox Christianity seemed like nothing but mumbo jumbo as I studied Catholic Catechism and Lutheran Confirmation classes as a youth. It wasn't until futility and despair of life along with the realization that God was always trying to communicate with His small voice in my heart and He convinced me to take a step of
Trust and when I did His presence came upon me and was indescribably good.
Since then I have found his word and Spirit have been guiding me into truth.

Jamie Gigliotti
July 17th, 2015, 09:21 AM
I have never been a hateful person, even through my 17 years of agnosticism. I have a very empathetic nature towards others even when things are not going so well for me. But as a younger agnostic I did feel a certain amount of futility. Nowadays I can switch back and forth from a theistic perspective and an agnostic perspective and still not lose sight of what is important. Theism might have just been a tool for me to reach that, but again it is what it is. Keep in mind I have studied many religions as well.

How the 5 major religions spread. (https://www.facebook.com/businessinsider/videos/10152949760834071/?pnref=story)

I have never thought of myself as hateful either and I have always desired to be a good person. Without wanting to go into specifics here. I was wronged severely by several people. I was able to forgive and love with God's help one individual and for a time and then I was wronged in a very painful way. My pain was immense... I was furious with God, foolishly as well. I pushed him away completely and revenge crossed my mind many times. The darkness overtook me literally, I was overcome by anxiety, anger, hurt, despair. Me and my family suffered immensly. Jesus said 'the truth shall set you free' and it wasn't until after a year of literal Hell did I finally turn to Him again and found freedom from those chains that were literally killing me. Me trusting him and His loving presence and His way of love have brought me the peace my heart has always desired.

Jamie Gigliotti
July 17th, 2015, 09:32 AM
The problem with this is it doesn't explain those many people who say the same, but Attribute it to a different religion that has nothing to do with Christianity or Jesus. Nor does it explain how people with no religion at all can make big changes for the better, without any supernatural intervention.

This has been put to you many times now yet you choose not to address it. Until you do, with a plausible explanation, your point above remains moot. Whether you accept it or not the existence of the Christian God has not been established. Preaching warm and fuzzies proves nothing.

I have studied other religions as well and none teach the love between us and our Father, whose image we are made in. Obviously we believe God the Father is the same God that was revealed to Abraham and the Jewish people, just that they reject the more intimate revelation of Jesus and the reconciliation we experience to God through him and the indwelling of the presence of God we recieve through His Grace and love and our surrender to him.

Hedshaker
July 17th, 2015, 09:49 AM
I have studied other religions as well and none teach the love between us and our Father, whose image we are made in. Obviously we believe God the Father is the same God that was revealed to Abraham and the Jewish people, just that they reject the more intimate revelation of Jesus and the reconciliation we experience to God through him and the indwelling of the presence of God we recieve through His Grace and love and our surrender to him.

Yes but the followers of Hinduism, Seek-ism, Islam and all the many world religions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religions_and_spiritual_traditions) say the same about their deity, their hero figure, their faith. You all seem to have the one true religion. Maybe you think all the other's have it wrong while you have it right, but the other's all think the same about their faiths.

You can't all be right but you can all be wrong, which certainly appears to be the case from the outside looking in.

noguru
July 17th, 2015, 10:06 AM
I have studied other religions as well and none teach the love between us and our Father, whose image we are made in. Obviously we believe God the Father is the same God that was revealed to Abraham and the Jewish people, just that they reject the more intimate revelation of Jesus and the reconciliation we experience to God through him and the indwelling of the presence of God we recieve through His Grace and love and our surrender to him.

I disagree. I find Buddhism to be a great tool in finding that peace in the midst of a storm. There is a seeming paradox in Buddhism that one must experience in order to actually realize it is no paradox. Non attachment seems to be rather cold and callous. But when it is achieved through the middle way, it actually brings a feeling of great connection with our surroundings and the people around us. I think that Jesus ministry and Buddhist practices have much in common, I have always felt this way. I have not been so sure of the claims of deity and personal independent eternal life that "orthodox" believers seem to hold as an essential part of Christianity. It is debatable that this is what Jesus meant.

DoogieTalons
July 17th, 2015, 10:17 AM
Not do you think you're right--do you hope that you are right that there is no God and therefore no ultimate justice in the afterlife?Weird question. Do I hope I am right. I guess as an Atheist I don't care if I am right. It's not about being right.

If you are not allowing the answer that I know I am right then the only possible answer to the question is I don't care.

Right or Wrong

If I am right and there is no God then I will be as aware of the last billion years of the universe as I was the first. Death has no meaning, only life.

If I am wrong then I will wonder what God will greet us. You guys are not the only one's who think your god is the only god and every other god is a lie.

I can hope that Christians are wrong, I wouldn't want to meet the God of the bible... Imagine that, a petty, immature all powerful yet jealous being. Butthurt enough to torture me for infinity simply because I didn't believe the cry baby existed.

The god of the bible allows slavery, dashing babies against rocks, killing thousands of innocents... the list goes on. Imagine if this dude is real ha ha what a turn up I'd rather roast than prostrate myself beneath him.. which would ironically mean he gave me more self respect than was good for me.

Oh and Sherman, if the only rebuke you have against the ridicule of the fairytale you believe in is a swift banning, then you really shouldn't be a MOD, it shows you have not the intelligence nor emotional maturity to maintain a board. It actually shows you know you're wrong and the rampant banning is the same response as a 5 year old sticking their fingers in their ears and singing la la la at the top of their voices.

I do not have to show respect for Christianity on a Christian board. The very fact you allow Atheists n the board means you must be open to an opposing view, even if that view treats your world view as a comedy platform.

chrysostom
July 17th, 2015, 10:25 AM
I can hope that Christians are wrong,

why not hope for something you would like?

do you have a reasonable explanation as to why we are here?

bybee
July 17th, 2015, 10:26 AM
Weird question. Do I hope I am right. I guess as an Atheist I don't care if I am right. It's not about being right.

If you are not allowing the answer that I know I am right then the only possible answer to the question is I don't care.

Right or Wrong

If I am right and there is no God then I will be as aware of the last billion years of the universe as I was the first. Death has no meaning, only life.

If I am wrong then I will wonder what God will greet us. You guys are not the only one's who think your god is the only god and every other god is a lie.

I can hope that Christians are wrong, I wouldn't want to meet the God of the bible... Imagine that, a petty, immature all powerful yet jealous being. Butthurt enough to torture me for infinity simply because I didn't believe the cry baby existed.

The god of the bible allows slavery, dashing babies against rocks, killing thousands of innocents... the list goes on. Imagine if this dude is real ha ha what a turn up I'd rather roast than prostrate myself beneath him.. which would ironically mean he gave me more self respect than was good for me.

That is one way to look at the data. Do use caution in expressing yourself. Some of us look at the data another way and we are not amused by blasphemy.
Our understanding of The Creator has evolved from punitive law giver to Savior.

alwight
July 17th, 2015, 10:34 AM
I considered myself a Christian my whole life and held to the Bibles words the whole time. It wasn't until I personally trusted Jesus and experienced His presence that my life changed.I've never been a Christian, though at one time many years ago I may have accepted that a "Christian" was what I was if asked.
The fact that you however, having lived by the Bible all your life, will credit Jesus for digging you out of a presumably bad situation doesn't really surprise me at all tbh.
I don't know specifically what, if anything, you think that Jesus actually did for you but I do know that many very deserving people who should get some special help but don't.:Plain:

I've never understood why some Christians believe that Jesus helped them find their car keys but will allow innocent babies to suffer. :liberals:

Hawkins
July 17th, 2015, 10:39 AM
If you are willing to reason to a deeper layer, you may find that Christianity is completely different from any other religions. All the following are logical necessities in a step-by-step approach. Each one exists as an inevitable necessity for the achieving of an ultimate goal.


God's Ultimate Plan is to build an eternity called Heave where entities with freewill such as angels and humans will live forever with God who is completely incompatible with sin.
To achieve the above,

Eden is a necessity
Planet Earth is a necessity
Even Satan is a necessity (he acts as a magnet to firmly hold the unqualified and to let go the qualified for God to pick up)

God's Law is a necessity
God's Grace and covenants are a necessity
Jesus Christ is a necessity (no one can enter Heaven without Christ)
God's hiding behind without showing up is a necessity
Judgment is a necessity (to judge who shall enter Heaven)

Paradise is a necessity (to hold humans souls of the saved)
Hades/sheol is a necessity (to hold the human souls of the unsaved)
Abyss is a necessity (to hold the spirits of the fallen angels)

At last but not least,
Immortal soul is arguably necessary
hell is arguably necessary

Tyrathca
July 17th, 2015, 10:55 AM
That is one way to look at the data. Do use caution in expressing yourself. Some of us look at the data another way and we are not amused by blasphemy.
Our understanding of The Creator has evolved from punitive law giver to Savior.

Yes but unless you have an unusual philosophy on religion you can't run away from that punitive law giver origins. Much of the bible (especially old testament) is filed with it. To claim the Savior narrative exclusively is a cop out that ignores your religions origins and original stories of god not to mention 2 millennia of interpretation of something which supposedly hasn't changed in that time yet has.

Jamie Gigliotti
July 17th, 2015, 11:00 AM
I disagree. I find Buddhism to be a great tool in finding that peace in the midst of a storm. There is a seeming paradox in Buddhism that one must experience in order to actually realize it is no paradox. Non attachment seems to be rather cold and callous. But when it is achieved through the middle way, it actually brings a feeling of great connection with our surroundings and the people around us. I think that Jesus ministry and Buddhist practices have much in common, I have always felt this way. I have not been so sure of the claims of deity and personal independent eternal life that "orthodox" believers seem to hold as an essential part of Christianity. It is debatable that this is what Jesus meant.

I have found momentary peace by other means, but not peace that lasts while I am in trusting mode, His love and forgiveness mode. I regress at times and rely on myself and find fear, anxiety are always ready to rear their ugly heads. Thank God I'm learning to rely upon Him more, trust Him more and those times are fewer and far between.

Jamie Gigliotti
July 17th, 2015, 11:03 AM
Yes but the followers of Hinduism, Seek-ism, Islam and all the many world religions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religions_and_spiritual_traditions) say the same about their deity, their hero figure, their faith. You all seem to have the one true religion. Maybe you think all the other's have it wrong while you have it right, but the other's all think the same about their faiths.

You can't all be right but you can all be wrong, which certainly appears to be the case from the outside looking in.

And interestingly the close personal unconditional love we all desire and need is exactly what Christianity is all about; that many have testified to have found.

Granite
July 17th, 2015, 11:04 AM
And interestingly the close personal unconditional love we all desire and need is exactly what Christianity is all about; that many have testified to have found.

You seem to be deliberately or unwittingly missing the point: You may well have found happiness and peace but it's not unique to Christianity.

Jamie Gigliotti
July 17th, 2015, 11:08 AM
I've never been a Christian, though at one time many years ago I may have accepted that a "Christian" was what I was if asked.
The fact that you however, having lived by the Bible all your life, will credit Jesus for digging you out of a presumably bad situation doesn't really surprise me at all tbh.
I don't know specifically what, if anything, you think that Jesus actually did for you but I do know that many very deserving people who should get some special help but don't.:Plain:

I've never understood why some Christians believe that Jesus helped them find their car keys but will allow innocent babies to suffer. :liberals:

It is all about love. He filled my heart with His love. He allows free will to create free, true love.

bybee
July 17th, 2015, 11:10 AM
Yes but unless you have an unusual philosophy on religion you can't run away from that punitive law giver origins. Much of the bible (especially old testament) is filed with it. To claim the Savior narrative exclusively is a cop out that ignores your religions origins and original stories of god not to mention 2 millennia of interpretation of something which supposedly hasn't changed in that time yet has.

All over the world humanity has and is evolving in understanding.
So, I'd agree we cannot undo history,but looking back may teach us what to avoid and what to promote?
We see how far we have come and how far we have yet to go.

Jamie Gigliotti
July 17th, 2015, 11:12 AM
You seem to be deliberately or unwittingly missing the point: You may well have found happiness and peace but it's not unique to Christianity.

Personal, intimate love between us and God is. Why do you think solitary confinement is such a hated thing? Many more are searching for love than peace, although perfect love is the way to lasting peace.

Jamie Gigliotti
July 17th, 2015, 11:21 AM
I've never been a Christian, though at one time many years ago I may have accepted that a "Christian" was what I was if asked.
The fact that you however, having lived by the Bible all your life, will credit Jesus for digging you out of a presumably bad situation doesn't really surprise me at all tbh.
I don't know specifically what, if anything, you think that Jesus actually did for you but I do know that many very deserving people who should get some special help but don't.:Plain:

I've never understood why some Christians believe that Jesus helped them find their car keys but will allow innocent babies to suffer. :liberals:

Not sure if you got my point that attempts to live by laws, to live by words, by doctrine, by dogma, were futile. It was only through my trust in Jesus and my fellowship with Him through the Holy Spirit that I found freedom.

noguru
July 17th, 2015, 11:24 AM
I have found momentary peace by other means, but not peace that lasts while I am in trusting mode, His love and forgiveness mode. I regress at times and rely on myself and find fear, anxiety are always ready to rear their ugly heads. Thank God I'm learning to rely upon Him more, trust Him more and those times are fewer and far between.

I would suggest that you are really not relying on yourself at all then.



And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Granite
July 17th, 2015, 11:28 AM
Personal, intimate love between us and God is. Why do you think solitary confinement is such a hated thing? Many more are searching for love than peace, although perfect love is the way to lasting peace.

I stand by my previous "bot" statement and take my leave of this thread.:salute:

Hedshaker
July 17th, 2015, 12:44 PM
And interestingly the close personal unconditional love we all desire and need is exactly what Christianity is all about; that many have testified to have found.

There isn't anything specifically unique about the Christian religion, it just happens to be the one that you were born into and captivated by. If you had been born in a different part of the world it would likely be Allah or Hari Krishna or one of the many deities (http://www.godchecker.com/) believed in by people across the planet.

Yes, I know you sincerely believe that yours is the one-and-only true god but, can you not understand that others believe the same about their beliefs, and their sincerity and convictions are equal to yours in every way. And what's more, few of you seem able to agree on the finer points even within your own faiths. There are currently over 30, 000 denominations (and counting) in Christianity alone.

This isn't a difficult concept to grasp.

Hedshaker
July 17th, 2015, 01:00 PM
Not sure if you got my point that attempts to live by laws, to live by words, by doctrine, by dogma, were futile. It was only through my trust in Jesus and my fellowship with Him through the Holy Spirit that I found freedom.

?v=dQIfDvS7lcY&list=PL-aJiwkSDDe3tzTmPYAlO5ISfp7ldynEG

This is the first of a four part series of videos. If you are as open minded as you claim you will take the time. Please note how sincere and polite this youtuber is.

I don't expect it will change your mind but it should hopefully show you a different perspective on just how fickle beliefs can be.

rstrats
July 17th, 2015, 02:23 PM
Hedshaker,
re: "There are currently over 30, 000 denominations (and counting) in Christianity alone."

I wonder if you have a list of those denominations that you could post here?

Jamie Gigliotti
July 17th, 2015, 02:32 PM
?v=dQIfDvS7lcY&list=PL-aJiwkSDDe3tzTmPYAlO5ISfp7ldynEG

This is the first of a four part series of videos. If you are as open minded as you claim you will take the time. Please note how sincere and polite this youtuber is.

I don't expect it will change your mind but it should hopefully show you a different perspective on just how fickle beliefs can be.
Be back Monday. I'll watch it.

Hedshaker
July 17th, 2015, 02:35 PM
Hedshaker,
re: "There are currently over 30, 000 denominations (and counting) in Christianity alone."

I wonder if you have a list of those denominations that you could post here?

I found this (http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/a106.htm) and there were quite a few entries besides. But I admit to not having done a great deal of research on the subject. I could be wrong.

alwight
July 17th, 2015, 02:38 PM
I've never been a Christian, though at one time many years ago I may have accepted that a "Christian" was what I was if asked.
The fact that you however, having lived by the Bible all your life, will credit Jesus for digging you out of a presumably bad situation doesn't really surprise me at all tbh.
I don't know specifically what, if anything, you think that Jesus actually did for you but I do know that many very deserving people who should get some special help but don't.:Plain:

I've never understood why some Christians believe that Jesus helped them find their car keys but will allow innocent babies to suffer. :liberals:It is all about love. He filled my heart with His love. He allows free will to create free, true love.


Not sure if you got my point that attempts to live by laws, to live by words, by doctrine, by dogma, were futile. It was only through my trust in Jesus and my fellowship with Him through the Holy Spirit that I found freedom.Good luck in whatever freedom you think you've found.

Hedshaker
July 17th, 2015, 02:39 PM
Be back Monday. I'll watch it.

Thank you and enjoy. It just shows how wide the subject actually is. No religious beliefs should be set in stone IMO.

Have a good weekend :salute:

rstrats
July 17th, 2015, 03:36 PM
Hedshaker,

re: "I found this and there were quite a few entries besides."

OK, thanks.

serpentdove
July 17th, 2015, 09:35 PM
No religious beliefs should be set in stone...
Is your view set in stone? Mt 7:24 :smokie:

serpentdove
July 17th, 2015, 09:38 PM
...[I]t should hopefully show you a different perspective on just how fickle beliefs can be.


Jas 1:8

serpentdove
July 17th, 2015, 09:41 PM
There isn't anything specifically unique about the Christian religion...


Except that whole resurrection thing. :dizzy:

serpentdove
July 17th, 2015, 09:43 PM
I would suggest that you are really not relying on yourself at all then.


That's the idea (Ps. 33:21). :dizzy:

Hedshaker
July 18th, 2015, 01:04 AM
Except that whole resurrection thing.

RESURRECTION CLAIMS IN NON-CHRISTIAN RELIGIONS (http://www.garyhabermas.com/articles/religious_studies/rel_stud_res_claims_in_non-christian_religions.htm)

Puppet
July 18th, 2015, 04:34 AM
Not do you think you're right--do you hope that you are right that there is no God and therefore no ultimate justice in the afterlife?

If an atheist took the time to discover http://www.theomatics.com , they will have no choice but to claim there is a God. Most here get mad at me for bringing this up.

alwight
July 18th, 2015, 07:15 AM
If an atheist took the time to discover http://www.theomatics.com , they will have no choice but to claim there is a God. Most here get mad at me for bringing this up.Yes I do get mad when numerology is brought up, it's such garbage. :mad:

Tyrathca
July 18th, 2015, 07:49 AM
If an atheist took the time to discover http://www.theomatics.com , they will have no choice but to claim there is a God. Most here get mad at me for bringing this up.
I tried to read through some of that site but it was just terrible. Going on and on and on and on and on... (you get the idea) about how awesome theomatics is and how there every word has a number and the "odds" of something are impossible and irrefutable evidence of god. Clearly written by someone who doesn't have much detail or a clear and structured methodology. I got kind of sick of wading through repetitions and waffle so I stopped (the parts I did see gave no hint at an understanding of mathematics, statistics or scientific methodology, quite the opposite actually)

Could you give a concise summary of what on earth the maths is meant to actually show? (ironically for all the waffle I couldn't figure out what was supposedly so improbable)

Puppet
July 18th, 2015, 09:23 AM
I tried to read through some of that site but it was just terrible. Going on and on and on and on and on... (you get the idea) about how awesome theomatics is and how there every word has a number and the "odds" of something are impossible and irrefutable evidence of god. Clearly written by someone who doesn't have much detail or a clear and structured methodology. I got kind of sick of wading through repetitions and waffle so I stopped (the parts I did see gave no hint at an understanding of mathematics, statistics or scientific methodology, quite the opposite actually)

Could you give a concise summary of what on earth the maths is meant to actually show? (ironically for all the waffle I couldn't figure out what was supposedly so improbable)

It doesnt matter cause it is God that does the choosing and He only chooses some but not all. Unless He softens your heart first, you wouldnt understand the Bible. Theres nothing you can do at this point. Youre not interested in the Bible.

Puppet
July 18th, 2015, 09:27 AM
Yes I do get mad when numerology is brought up, it's such garbage. :mad:

Agnostics who are really weak atheists wont believe in the Bible due to not being drawn. The spiritual things of God are garbage to the unregenerates. Thats how you like it

serpentdove
July 18th, 2015, 09:31 AM
RESURRECTION CLAIMS IN NON-CHRISTIAN RELIGIONS

Acts 17:32

Recommended reading:

The Case for Christ: A Journalist's Personal Investigation of the Evidence for Jesus (http://www.amazon.com/Case-Christ-Journalists-Personal-Investigation/dp/0310339308/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1437234020&sr=8-1&keywords=the+case+for+christ) by Lee Strobel

quip
July 18th, 2015, 09:38 AM
If an atheist took the time to discover http://www.theomatics.com , they will have no choice but to claim there is a God. Most here get mad at me for bringing this up.

Wow, that brought me back.

I haven't seen a website that cheesy looking since the 90's.

Apparently, God does not work in "graphically designed" ways!

Puppet
July 18th, 2015, 09:46 AM
Wow, that brought me back.

I haven't seen a website that cheesy looking since the 90's.

Apparently, God does not work in "graphically designed" ways!

You may move in your bubble all you want but God controls your bubble to make sure you don't ever get in my way

quip
July 18th, 2015, 09:55 AM
You may move in your bubble all you want but God controls your bubble to make sure you don't ever get in my way

Have you noticed how bubbles are quite impermanent?

Hedshaker
July 18th, 2015, 09:58 AM
Acts 17:32

Recommended reading:

The Case for Christ: A Journalist's Personal Investigation of the Evidence for Jesus (http://www.amazon.com/Case-Christ-Journalists-Personal-Investigation/dp/0310339308/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1437234020&sr=8-1&keywords=the+case+for+christ) by Lee Strobel

Lee Strobel, lol! You may not be aware of this but Christian apologetics books are written for Christians not Sceptics, since tossers like Lee Strobel make their money selling books to Christians.

But anyway, there was a huge thread on Internet Infidels about Lee Strobal years ago. Suffice to say the consensus among sceptics was, he's a phony.

Oh and, so much for Resurrection claims being unique to Christianity :(

serpentdove
July 18th, 2015, 10:57 AM
But anyway, there was a huge thread on Internet Infidels about Lee Strobal years ago. Suffice to say the consensus among sceptics was, he's a phony.

:yawn: You've read his book? And your best answer to his questions? Queue jeopardy theme (http://vananne.com/serpentdove/Jeopardy%20Theme.mp3)(right click, open).

Town Heretic
July 18th, 2015, 10:59 AM
Lee Strobel, lol! You may not be aware of this but Christian apologetics books are written for Christians not Sceptics, since tossers like Lee Strobel make their money selling books to Christians.
Apologetics is like anything else, there are two sorts of people interested, those who are curious on the point and those who want to sharpen their approach in assisting others who are searching or to defend the faith against anti-theist attempts to demean it.

It's no condemnation of that faith that atheists aren't particularly interested. I wouldn't expect to find interest outside of a genuine agnostic.


But anyway, there was a huge thread on Internet Infidels about Lee Strobal years ago. Suffice to say the consensus among sceptics was, he's a phony.
Oh those darn empiricists and their obvious objective...well, no. I suppose not (not that it keeps them from supposing, apparently).


Oh and, so much for Resurrection claims being unique to Christianity
Of course they aren't, though Christianity is unique among them.

serpentdove
July 18th, 2015, 11:31 AM
I've never understood why some Christians believe that Jesus helped them find their car keys but will allow innocent babies to suffer. :liberals:

:noway: Car keys are a lesser matter. :Plain: Regarding human suffering--is it possible that God has a purpose in it? Is it possible that he would like men to humble themselves before him and repent of their sin? Rom. 8:18; 1 Pet. 4:13

alwight
July 18th, 2015, 12:17 PM
:noway: Car keys are a lesser matter. :Plain:Yes, a trivial matter was what I intended.


Regarding human suffering--is it possible that God has a purpose in it? Is it possible that he would like men to humble themselves before him and repent of their sin? Rom. 8:18; 1 Pet. 4:13Strange then that tragedy can apparently afflict even the most pious and humble of us it seems? :liberals:
No doubt their reward will be in heaven, right? :rolleyes:

quip
July 18th, 2015, 12:52 PM
Apologetics is like anything else, there are two sorts of people interested, those who are curious on the point and those who want to sharpen their approach in assisting others who are searching or to defend the faith against anti-theist attempts to demean it.


You mean like those guys on city street corners with three shells and a pea and/or the ones selling Rolax watches?

Town Heretic
July 18th, 2015, 12:55 PM
You mean like those guys on city street corners with three shells and a pea?
You must be talking about the anti theists, because no Christian is going to take a pea on a public street corner.

:Plain:

Rusha
July 18th, 2015, 12:56 PM
:rotfl:

bybee
July 18th, 2015, 12:57 PM
You must be talking about the anti theists, because no Christian is going to take a pea on a public street corner.

:Plain:

Indeed! That would be quite a gamble....

quip
July 18th, 2015, 01:05 PM
You must be talking about the anti theists, because no Christian is going to take a pea on a public street corner.

:Plain:

Getting the sellers confused with the buyers?

rexlunae
July 18th, 2015, 01:05 PM
Not do you think you're right--do you hope that you are right that there is no God and therefore no ultimate justice in the afterlife?

If I knew of a certainty that there were justice in an afterlife, it would convince me even more that your god is merely your delusion.

I can see the appeal of this idea, that justice will come in the end to all, that the self-righteous will get the final and unavoidable last laugh. But the more I listen to the voices that clamor for this idea, the more certain I am that it is fantasy, and the more relieved I am that I don't have to worry about their prognostications. Perhaps there is a conception of a god who might be just who could pull of real final justice in the end, but if there is, no religion has yet imagined him.

bybee
July 18th, 2015, 01:10 PM
If I knew of a certainty that there were justice in an afterlife, it would convince me even more that your god is merely your delusion.

I can see the appeal of this idea, that justice will come in the end to all, that the self-righteous will get the final and unavoidable last laugh. But the more I listen to the voices that clamor for this idea, the more certain I am that it is fantasy, and the more relieved I am that I don't have to worry about their prognostications. Perhaps there is a conception of a god who might be just who could pull of real final justice in the end, but if there is, no religion has yet imagined him.

...and yet, in quiet times and places, there is that "still small voice" which says "I am that I am becoming, in you". One is free to
choose.

Puppet
July 18th, 2015, 01:24 PM
Have you noticed how bubbles are quite impermanent?

God arranges circumstances around you and those circumstances causes you to make choose the only option given to you. That's your bubble.

rexlunae
July 18th, 2015, 01:25 PM
...and yet, in quiet times and places, there is that "still small voice" which says "I am that I am becoming, in you". One is free to
choose.

My still small voice seems more fond of saying "What's for dinner?"

Town Heretic
July 18th, 2015, 01:27 PM
Getting the sellers confused with the buyers?
Oh come on. In the box with you and don't come out until you can put the ball in play.

Hedshaker
July 18th, 2015, 01:54 PM
:yawn: You've read his book?

Why would I want to waste my precious time on such obvious drivel? If you're a true believer already then you will be naturally drawn to whatever confirmation bias you spot. This is a human failing that we should all be aware of in the same way that we should be careful of how we count hits and quietly blind ourselves to misses, regardless of actual proportions. A point which apologists exploit to the full and one that Strobel in particular is very adept at. It's also why peer review is such an important aspect of the scientific method.

Try reading Strobel (and other apologists) with this in mind and see for yourself, or better yet have a look at what his adversaries have to say (https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Lee+Strobe+the+fraud&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=-JuqVe2qBob0UqyvoegK). I agree that Christian apologists are not alone using these tactics but boy do they stretch it to the limits


And your best answer to his questions? Queue jeopardy theme (http://vananne.com/serpentdove/Jeopardy%20Theme.mp3)(right click, open).

Not sure I see your point in that remark. A bit of childish banter maybe?

Hedshaker
July 18th, 2015, 02:06 PM
Apologetics is like anything else, there are two sorts of people interested, those who are curious on the point and those who want to sharpen their approach in assisting others who are searching or to defend the faith against anti-theist attempts to demean it.

It's no condemnation of that faith that atheists aren't particularly interested. I wouldn't expect to find interest outside of a genuine agnostic.

Sorry Town I have not the time or inclination to get too bogged down on this but I take your point and will be brief.





But anyway, there was a huge thread on Internet Infidels about Lee Strobal years ago. Suffice to say the consensus among sceptics was, he's a phony.

Oh those darn empiricists and their obvious objective...well, no. I suppose not (not that it keeps them from supposing, apparently).

Your opinion noted :thumb:





Oh and, so much for Resurrection claims being unique to Christianity
Of course they aren't, though Christianity is unique among them.

To believers of course. To sceptics, not so much.

serpentdove
July 18th, 2015, 02:07 PM
"Strange then that tragedy can apparently afflict even the most pious and humble of us it seems?" Sure (Mt 5:45). We live in a fallen word (Ge 1:31).


"No doubt their reward will be in heaven, right?"

For those who humble themselves before him, yes (Jas 4:6).

Town Heretic
July 18th, 2015, 02:16 PM
Sorry Town I have not the time or inclination to get too bogged down on this but I take your point and will be brief.
Only answering on the points. No need to side bar on anything unless you have the time and inclination...mostly, with this sort of thing I try to respond with a genial enough "no, you're not going to get away with that" sort of nudge/invitation to discourse that can either stand as a general rebuttal or the beginning of a conversation.

Either way I've met my obligation in the moment, so I don't take offense if your interest is t-ball.


Your opinion noted :thumb:
Well, you have to admit there's something funny about people who should be rationalists acting less than on a point. Truth about the inner workings of a man by show of hands?


To believers of course. To sceptics, not so much.
I don't agree. I think you can or should be able to acknowledge any number of important differences in Christianity, with or without agreement on the foundational truth. The Christian resurrection is roughly met in other religions, but not entirely and the differences aren't without importance, contextually.

The same goes for how Christianity meets the nature of man and being. Anyway, don't let me keep you if your inclination is lighter.

serpentdove
July 18th, 2015, 02:16 PM
Why would I want to waste my precious time on such obvious drivel?

:yawn: He asks some important questions that frankly--must be answered (Ps 14:1).

noguru
July 18th, 2015, 03:34 PM
That's the idea (Ps. 33:21). :dizzy:

Yet you seem to ignore the Biblical reference I had included. Of course there is a perfectly valid symbiotic relationship between all concepts in the Bible, but I don't expect you to look at the entire Bible and reveal it all. Being accurate is not your style.

noguru
July 18th, 2015, 04:17 PM
The same goes for how Christianity meets the nature of man and being. Anyway, don't let me keep you if your inclination is lighter.

If I were a therapist trying to help a distraught and discontented person, I would start them with the introspective side of Christianity. And once started (they do not have to resolve all negativity from the past immediately) I would put them on a diet of Buddhism. But they should never forget who brought them to that epiphany and catharsis. And always be grateful for the contentment that was given to them. I am not sure that reciting specific words as some sort of magical incantation is a real solution.

bybee
July 18th, 2015, 04:33 PM
My still small voice seems more fond of saying "What's for dinner?"

I hope it is something that you will enjoy.

Town Heretic
July 18th, 2015, 05:24 PM
If I were a therapist trying to help a distraught and discontented person, I would start them with the introspective side of Christianity. And once started (they do not have to resolve all negativity from the past immediately) I would put them on a diet of Buddhism. But they should never forget who brought them to that epiphany and catharsis. And always be grateful for the contentment that was given to them. I am not sure that reciting specific words as some sort of magical incantation is a real solution.
Reciting what words? I think I like the opening move, but then I'd consider Brother Lawrence and even a bit of Peck's Road. If they were up for it, or the sort inclined to sustained consideration I might be inclined to suggest Merton. But Lawrence to be sure. A quick, simple and profound approach to life within a larger context.

noguru
July 18th, 2015, 05:58 PM
Reciting what words?

Creeds that are stringently attached to dogmatic views, because (even though lip service might be given) many people do not recognize the fallibility of man.



I think I like the opening move, but then I'd consider Brother Lawrence and even a bit of Peck's Road. If they were up for it, or the sort inclined to sustained consideration I might be inclined to suggest Merton. But Lawrence to be sure. A quick, simple and profound approach to life within a larger context.

I see Jesus and Buddha as preaching some of the same concepts to potential followers. But Jesus dwelt a little more on a Freudian resonance of recapitulating past errors and misconceptions. His offering of redemption is valuable for people who have difficulty forgiving themselves. Where Buddha was more Jungian in proposing that going over that might be helpful, but what really matters is how you are living right now.

Town Heretic
July 18th, 2015, 06:03 PM
Dogmatic creeds because they do not recognize the fallibility of man.
Would this qualify for you? "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." Because it isn't the fallibility of man, but the transcendence of God that, to me, imbues that with a life altering meaning.


I see Jesus and Buddha as preaching some of the same concepts to potential followers. But Jesus dwelt more on a Freudian resonance of recapitulating past errors and misconceptions. Where Buddha was more Jungian in proposing that going over that might be helpful, but what really matters is how you are living right now.
I see Buddha as a very wise man struggling to make a contextual sense of being. I see Christ as God offering the context.

Always good to bump into you, Nog.

noguru
July 18th, 2015, 06:10 PM
Would this qualify for you?...


You might want to go back and reread my edit. I was not precise enough on first writing.

noguru
July 18th, 2015, 06:12 PM
Always good to bump into you, Nog.

The same to you as well counselor. Your elucidations have been of great benefit to me.

noguru
July 18th, 2015, 06:17 PM
I see Buddha as a very wise man struggling to make a contextual sense of being.

It is the struggle that makes Buddhism become the chosen path. It is in reconciling the struggle that the "middle way" is achieved. And it is the "middle way" that leads to contentment through balance in all things.



I see Christ as God offering the context.


As much as a divine being might be helpful to some. I tend to see the importance being in a divine realm. Even Christians are seeking a divine realm, though they feel it must be through a divine being (and some think it is only in the afterlife). Buddhism only requires a divine realm, a divine being is optional.

Be that as it may, I think some people find it difficult to forgive themselves. And I think Jesus realized this. Hence he gave his path freely to others so that they may discard the bag of rocks they have been carrying and find enlightenment.