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brinny
June 13th, 2015, 09:54 PM
I accidentally stumbled onto a thread today. Come to find out, it was a debate about the trinity vs anti-trinity.

It got me to thinking.

Does Nontrinitarianism believe that Jesus was created?

Thank you kindly.

RevTestament
June 13th, 2015, 10:34 PM
I accidentally stumbled onto a thread today. Come to find out, it was a debate about the trinity vs anti-trinity.

It got me to thinking.

Does Nontrinitarianism believe that Jesus was created?

Thank you kindly.
Non-trinitarianism is a fairly broad field :)
Some believe Jesus was a creation.
Some do not.

I am not "trinitarian" because I don't believe various aspects of the doctrine. For instance I believe Jesus was actually begotten as the Son of God within time, and not "before all ages/worlds" or "eternally begotten" like the creeds say.
I do believe Jesus' earthly body was a creation, but I believe Jesus existed with the Father since before the creation and appeared to Moses, etc.

brinny
June 13th, 2015, 10:37 PM
Non-trinitarianism is a fairly broad field :)
Some believe Jesus was a creation.
Some do not.

I am not "trinitarian" because I don't believe various aspects of the doctrine. For instance I believe Jesus was actually begotten as the Son of God within time, and not "before all ages/worlds" or "eternally begotten" like the creeds say.
I do believe Jesus' earthly body was a creation, but I believe Jesus existed with the Father since before the creation and appeared to Moses, etc.

Thank you kindly for sharing.

keypurr
June 13th, 2015, 10:57 PM
I accidentally stumbled onto a thread today. Come to find out, it was a debate about the trinity vs anti-trinity.

It got me to thinking.

Does Nontrinitarianism believe that Jesus was created?

Thank you kindly.

I see Jesus as a man. All men are creations.

But the express image is a spirit like God is. Being an image that is a creation also. I see this image as Christ, the spiritual son of God.

CherubRam
June 13th, 2015, 11:19 PM
I accidentally stumbled onto a thread today. Come to find out, it was a debate about the trinity vs anti-trinity.

It got me to thinking.

Does Nontrinitarianism believe that Jesus was created?

Thank you kindly.

Since God (Yahwah) is the only person to come into being on His own accord, it is assumed that Yahshua is a created being. He was placed in Mary's womb and born Yahshua the Christ.

A Body You Prepared For Me

Psalm 40:6 Some Hebrew and Septuagint manuscripts: “but a body you have prepared for me…”

Hebrews 10:5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;

Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

Totton Linnet
June 14th, 2015, 06:06 AM
The main intention of non-trinitarianism is to deny the deity of Christ.

Christ Himself is the Creator, all things were made by Him and without Him was not anything made which has been made

Sherman
June 14th, 2015, 07:03 AM
It's a discussion that had tended to get out on hand on TOL. If this one get out of hand it will be locked. Just so you know.

jamie
June 14th, 2015, 07:48 AM
It is written that the King of Righteousness is without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.

The King was made like the Son of God because the Son of God had not yet been born.


Here mortal men receive tithes, but there he receives them of whom it is witnessed that he lives. (Hebrews 7:8 NKJV)

CherubRam
June 14th, 2015, 08:18 AM
The main intention of non-trinitarianism is to deny the deity of Christ.

Christ Himself is the Creator, all things were made by Him and without Him was not anything made which has been made

The people in heaven are called gods. We who are the Elect are also called gods based upon a promise.

Psalm 82:6
“I said, ‘You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.’

John 10:34
Yahshua answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’ ? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside — 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?

CherubRam
June 14th, 2015, 08:22 AM
It is written that the King of Righteousness is without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.

The King was made like the Son of God because the Son of God had not yet been born.


Here mortal men receive tithes, but there he receives them of whom it is witnessed that he lives. (Hebrews 7:8 NKJV)
Here is the correct translation:
Hebrews 7:3
Without father or mother, without genealogy, beginning of days without end of life, resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest forever.

CherubRam
June 14th, 2015, 08:23 AM
A person, place, or thing, that has no beginning, does not exist.

Sancocho
June 14th, 2015, 08:40 AM
The main intention of non-trinitarianism is to deny the deity of Christ.

Christ Himself is the Creator, all things were made by Him and without Him was not anything made which has been made

I somehow always perceived that the main purpose of non-trinitarianism was to distinguish oneself from Catholics with the consequence of accepting the eventual logical theological conclusion that Jesus is not God is just a "necessary" evil in order to maintain the distinction.

I don't make this observation likely, I have spent many years visiting Protestant churches and forums. In fact, I propose this desire to be distinguished from Catholics is the initial cause of the fracturing of the Christian churches and that once the idea of a whole Body is Christ is rejected then it becomes a race for every man for himself to distinguish himself among others before God. What many apparently don't understand sadly is that the root of this desire isn't love of Christ but vanity and pride for not wanting to be anything like another Christian. Of course the results for the US and Europe have been disastrous to say the least.

Sancocho
June 14th, 2015, 08:42 AM
A person, place, or thing, that has no beginning, does not exist.

God has no beginning and He exists. Sometimes we are not capable of understanding all there is to know about God.

iamaberean
June 14th, 2015, 08:49 AM
I accidentally stumbled onto a thread today. Come to find out, it was a debate about the trinity vs anti-trinity.

It got me to thinking.

Does Nontrinitarianism believe that Jesus was created?

Thank you kindly.

The main difference between nontrinitarian and trinity is the definition, both will tell you that God is one.

The Old Testament says that 'The LORD our God is one'. LORD is substituted for Jehovah. So the Jew will tell you there are many god's but only one LORD.

The Old Testament also says:Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
The redeemer is Jesus, a man whose father is God, not a man. So when the LORD says his redeemer the LORD of hosts the first and the last refers to Adam, the first, and Jesus, the last. This is like John the Baptist being Elijah. They had the same type of calling.

LORD God is Father
Spirit of God in Redeemer is Son
God in us is Holy Ghost

They are the same Spirit with different functions. Just as I function as a father, a son and a husband.

CherubRam
June 14th, 2015, 09:07 AM
God has no beginning and He exists. Sometimes we are not capable of understanding all there is to know about God.
You can not be FIRST without a beginning.

Isaiah 44:6
“This is what the Lord says— Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

Isaiah 48:12
“Listen to me, Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last.

Revelation 1:17
When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.

keypurr
June 14th, 2015, 09:16 AM
The main intention of non-trinitarianism is to deny the deity of Christ.



Christ Himself is the Creator, all things were made by Him and without Him was not anything made which has been made


Not so Totton. The purpose is to seek truth.

God created everything through his Christ. Phil 2 speaks of Christ being a form of God that took the form of man. This thread was started to explore what it means. How do most see what deity or divinity means. Christ has a God, that does not take away from his Lordship. The only one greater than Christ is the Father who he tells us is the only God.

Folks should ask themselves many questions to make their faith stronger.

Sancocho
June 14th, 2015, 09:18 AM
You can not be FIRST without a beginning.

Isaiah 44:6
“This is what the Lord says— Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

Isaiah 48:12
“Listen to me, Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last.

Revelation 1:17
When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.

Before time was created God is. During that period there is no beginning or end.

BTW, trying to undermine Jesus' divinity is a recipe for disaster spiritually.

keypurr
June 14th, 2015, 09:25 AM
God has no beginning and He exists. Sometimes we are not capable of understanding all there is to know about God.


That may be true, but we can understand his son. They are not one and the same being. All power was given to the son by his God. The son had beginning as he is the express image of the creator.

OCTOBER23
June 14th, 2015, 09:29 AM
THERE IS NO TRINITY.

THE HOLY SPIRIT-COMFORTER IS THE MIND OF CHRIST PUT INSIDE THE MINDS

OF MEN TO HELP THEM OVERCOME SIN AND MARK THEM FOR RESURRECTION.

--JESUS CAME TO EARTH AND BUILT GODLY CHARACTER AND RESISTANCE TO SIN

AND WENT BACK UP TO THE FATHER AND SENT THAT GODLY CHARACTER DOWN TO US.

1 Corinthians 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord,

That he may instruct him?

But we have the mind of Christ.
----------------------------------
1 Corinthians 6:11 And ye are washed, ye are sanctified,

and ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus by the Spirit of our God.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

keypurr
June 14th, 2015, 09:29 AM
It's a discussion that had tended to get out on hand on TOL. If this one get out of hand it will be locked. Just so you know.


This discussion tends to get folks to think

brinny
June 14th, 2015, 09:36 AM
We all concur that Jesus the Christ, the only begotten Son of the living God, the God of the living, is Savior and died for our sins, yes?

(if not please share why not)

is it possible to be a Savior if one is "created"?

Thank you kindly.

Sancocho
June 14th, 2015, 09:51 AM
Not so Totton. The purpose is to seek truth.

Unfortunately it seems that those who deny the Trinity want God for themselves and only for themselves. I am afraid they have embraced something altogether different - and not out of love either.

Sancocho
June 14th, 2015, 09:52 AM
That may be true, but we can understand his son. They are not one and the same being. All power was given to the son by his God. The son had beginning as he is the express image of the creator.

The Word was made flesh, before that Jesus said "I am".

achduke
June 14th, 2015, 09:57 AM
It is written that the King of Righteousness is without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.

The King was made like the Son of God because the Son of God had not yet been born.


Where is this written? Is it in scripture?

achduke
June 14th, 2015, 10:04 AM
I accidentally stumbled onto a thread today. Come to find out, it was a debate about the trinity vs anti-trinity.

It got me to thinking.

Does Nontrinitarianism believe that Jesus was created?

Thank you kindly.

Deuteronomy 18:15 The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him.

Acts 7:55 But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.

brinny
June 14th, 2015, 10:14 AM
Originally Posted by brinny View Post
I accidentally stumbled onto a thread today. Come to find out, it was a debate about the trinity vs anti-trinity.

It got me to thinking.

Does Nontrinitarianism believe that Jesus was created?

Thank you kindly.


Deuteronomy 18:5 The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him.

Acts 7:55 But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.

Thank you kindly for the Bible verses. However i'm not following how they answer the question posed, unless i'm missing something? If so, i apologize.

achduke
June 14th, 2015, 10:17 AM
Unfortunately it seems that those who deny the Trinity want God for themselves and only for themselves. I am afraid they have embraced something altogether different - and not out of love either.

This is pure judging and opinion with nothing to back it up. Not even one shred of scripture. I do not believe anything you wrote above. I Love God and his son and want to only be God's servant and be with him and the rest of his church. Why should we put God in a box or label God?

Job 31:33
31 “Can you bind the chains[b] of the Pleiades?
Can you loosen Orion’s belt?
32 Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons[c]
or lead out the Bear[d] with its cubs?
33 Do you know the laws of the heavens?

1 Kings 8:27
27“But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!

Numbers 23:19 God is not human, that he should lie,
not a human being, that he should change his mind.

achduke
June 14th, 2015, 10:33 AM
Thank you kindly for the Bible verses. However i'm not following how they answer the question posed, unless i'm missing something? If so, i apologize.

Deuteronomy shows that God will raise up a prophet and then put his WORD in his mouth. Is the Man God or is the WORD that is in him God and instructs him?

Deuteronomy 18:15 The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him.

Deuteronomy 18:17-18
17The Lord said to me: “What they say is good.
18I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him.

John 14:10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

The Father lives and dwells in Jesus. The WORD is speaking.

Jesus is the temple of God.

John 2:20 They replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?” 21But the temple he had spoken of was his body

brinny
June 14th, 2015, 10:45 AM
Deuteronomy shows that God will raise up a prophet and then put his WORD in his mouth. Is the Man God or is the WORD that is in him God and instructs him?

Deuteronomy 18:15 The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him.

Deuteronomy 18:17-18
17The Lord said to me: “What they say is good.
18I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him.

John 14:10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

The Father lives and dwells in Jesus. The WORD is speaking.

Jesus is the temple of God.

John 2:20 They replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?” 21But the temple he had spoken of was his body

The first verse you posted actually could apply to any prophet, for all of God's prophets did this very thing. Otherwise they would not have been His prophets. They all spoke His Words that He put into them, did they not? However, none of them qualified to be a Savior and to die on the cross, shedding blood for our sins, did they? Why not?

Thank you kindly.

achduke
June 14th, 2015, 10:52 AM
The first verse you posted actually could apply to any prophet, for all of God's prophets did this very thing. Otherwise they would not have been His prophets. They all spoke His Words that He put into them, did they not? However, none of them qualified to be a Savior and to die on the cross, shedding blood for our sins, did they? Why not?

Thank you kindly.

The prophet Moses is talking about is another prophet like Moses. Has there ever been another prophet like Moses. Who else is like Moses? Christ is greater than Moses. Moses sinned. Christ did not sin.

brinny
June 14th, 2015, 10:56 AM
The prophet Moses is talking about is another prophet like Moses. Has there ever been another prophet like Moses. Who else is like Moses? Christ is greater than Moses. Moses sinned. Christ did not sin.

John the Baptist was not a prophet?

Did Jesus the Christ come to earth to be a prophet?

Thank you kindly.

achduke
June 14th, 2015, 11:05 AM
John the Baptist was not a prophet?

Did Jesus the Christ come to earth to be a prophet?

Thank you kindly.

Was John the Baptist like Moses? Did he perform great miracles by the power of God? Did he part the sea like Moses? Did he bring people back from the Dead like Christ?

Christ is the Son of God. He is not just a great Prophet but he is a phrophet. Did he not phropisize the future?

brinny
June 14th, 2015, 11:08 AM
Was John the Baptist like Moses? Did he perform great miracles by the power of God? Did he part the sea like Moses? Did he bring people back from the Dead like Christ?

Christ is the Son of God. He is not just a great Prophet but he is a phrophet. Did he not phropisize the future?

Jesus the Christ, the only begotten Son of the living God, the God of the living, was a prophet then? He came to earth to raise the dead, heal the sick, etc.? Who was He paving the way for?

Thank you kindly.

Sancocho
June 14th, 2015, 11:13 AM
This is pure judging and opinion with nothing to back it up. Not even one shred of scripture. I do not believe anything you wrote above. I Love God and his son and want to only be God's servant and be with him and the rest of his church. Why should we put God in a box or label God?


If your motive is love of Christ as the only begotten Son of the Creator made flesh and our Savior then my quote obviously doesn't apply to you.

However, I can say with complete confidence that many Protestants have built their doctrine around hate of the Catholic Church and will twist Scripture to attempt to make it fit. Their motive is not love of God nor of their fellow man, which is the purpose of the Law and the Gospel, but a desire to distinguish themselves at the expense of other Christians. May God have mercy on them.

achduke
June 14th, 2015, 11:13 AM
Jesus the Christ, the only begotten Son of the living God, the God of the living, was a prophet then? He came to earth to raise the dead, heal the sick, etc.? Who was He paving the way for?

Thank you kindly.

Jesus referred to himself as a phrophet.

Mar 6:4 But Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his own country, among his own relatives, and in his own house."

A phrophet prophesies for God about the future and instructs God's Word.

brinny
June 14th, 2015, 11:15 AM
Jesus referred to himself as a phrophet.

Mar 6:4 But Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his own country, among his own relatives, and in his own house."

A phrophet prophesies for God about the future and instructs God's Word.

Who was Jesus the Christ paving the way for?

Thank you kindly.

oatmeal
June 14th, 2015, 11:22 AM
I accidentally stumbled onto a thread today. Come to find out, it was a debate about the trinity vs anti-trinity.

It got me to thinking.

Does Nontrinitarianism believe that Jesus was created?

Thank you kindly.

Were you created? Was I created?

Was Adam and Eve created?

Or rather, was creation the only method God used to produce Adam and Eve?

Isaiah 43:7 KJV

Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

There were three totally different processes that God used to produce those that are called by God's name.

1. created

2. formed

3. made

God did not repeat himself, there are three distinct processes involved.

Create does not mean form, form does not mean made.....

There are three distinct parts to a believer.

I Thessalonians 5:23

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1. Spirit

2. soul

3. body

Spirit here refers to eternal life spirit, soul means that which enlivens the body, and body is that which returns to dust and ashes when the soul dies

What was formed? Genesis 2:7 God formed Adam's body from the dust of the ground.

He did not become a living soul until God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, ie, soul. Soul, which is likewise found in animals.

Genesis 1:20-24

And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

The words creature and life in the above verses is the word nephesh, soul.

Animals have soul. God adapted that soul, He made that soul that animals have fit for the human being.

God made the soul of man.

What is the image of God that God created? God is spirit. John 4:24

God created spirit in man.

Thus man was not just created, he was also formed and made according to Isaiah 43:7

So, what was your question about Jesus Christ?

Were you created? What does create mean as used in scripture?

To bring something into existence out of nothing. Genesis 1:1,21,27

Only God can create and all that was necessary for body and soul to exist was created in Genesis 1.

I still have not answered your question, but without the above information, my answer would not mean much to anyone

achduke
June 14th, 2015, 11:27 AM
Who was Jesus the Christ paving the way for?

Thank you kindly.

Christ is the way. He prophesied for God. Christ died for our sins. I am not quite sure what you are asking. Does every phrophet need to pave the way for something? Where is this written in scripture?

brinny
June 14th, 2015, 11:29 AM
Were you created? Was I created?

Was Adam and Eve created?

Or rather, was creation the only method God used to produce Adam and Eve?

Isaiah 43:7 KJV

Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

There were three totally different processes that God used to produce those that are called by God's name.

1. created

2. formed

3. made

God did not repeat himself, there are three distinct processes involved.

Create does not mean form, form does not mean made.....

There are three distinct parts to a believer.

I Thessalonians 5:23

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1. Spirit

2. soul

3. body

Spirit here refers to eternal life spirit, soul means that which enlivens the body, and body is that which returns to dust and ashes when the soul dies

What was formed? Genesis 2:7 God formed Adam's body from the dust of the ground.

He did not become a living soul until God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, ie, soul. Soul, which is likewise found in animals.

Genesis 1:20-24

And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

The words creature and life in the above verses is the word nephesh, soul.

Animals have soul. God adapted that soul, He made that soul that animals have fit for the human being.

God made the soul of man.

What is the image of God that God created? God is spirit. John 4:24

God created spirit in man.

Thus man was not just created, he was also formed and made according to Isaiah 43:7

So, what was your question about Jesus Christ?

Were you created? What does create mean as used in scripture?

To bring something into existence out of nothing. Genesis 1:1,21,27

Only God can create and all that was necessary for body and soul to exist was created in Genesis 1.

I still have not answered your question, but without the above information, my answer would not mean much to anyone

I concur. It doesn't answer the question,. Nevertheless, thank you for your very thoughtful post.

Would you care to answer the question now?

Thank you kindly.

chrysostom
June 14th, 2015, 11:34 AM
I concur. It doesn't answer the question,. Nevertheless, thank you for your very thoughtful post.

Would you care to answer the question now?

Thank you kindly.

notice how long the post must be to hide the fact that they can't or won't answer the question?

jamie
June 14th, 2015, 11:37 AM
Where is this written? Is it in scripture?



...without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God remains a priest continually. (Hebrews 7:3 NKJV)

meshak
June 14th, 2015, 11:37 AM
We all concur that Jesus the Christ, the only begotten Son of the living God, the God of the living, is Savior and died for our sins, yes?

Where did you get the idea that Jesus is the God of the living?

The rest is yes.

meshak
June 14th, 2015, 11:39 AM
notice how long the post must be to hide the fact that they can't or won't answer the question?

It will be answered if you repeat it. There are too many questions asked.

We don't have anything to hide.

jamie
June 14th, 2015, 11:47 AM
Where did you get the idea that Jesus is the God of the living?



I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
(Matthew 22:32 NKJV)


God is a uniplural noun.

meshak
June 14th, 2015, 11:49 AM
I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
(Matthew 22:32 NKJV)


This is not Jesus; it is God the Father.

He was saying that is Jesus. Big difference.

brinny
June 14th, 2015, 11:50 AM
We all concur that Jesus the Christ, the only begotten Son of the living God, the God of the living, is Savior and died for our sins, yes?

(if not please share why not)

is it possible to be a Savior if one is "created"?

Thank you kindly.


Where did you get the idea that Jesus is the God of the living?

The rest is yes.

Although i was speaking of the living God, the God of the living, it certainly applies to Jesus the Christ, for He, as God Almighty, is the God of the living, since death has been defeated. Thank you for bringing that to my attention.

If Jesus the Christ was "created", He would've been part of the fall of man and all creation, would He not? If so, how could He, as a "created" being, ever be a Savior of anything or anyone, as He Himself would've needed a Savior.

Please elaborate.

Thank you kindly.

achduke
June 14th, 2015, 11:50 AM
...without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God remains a priest continually. (Hebrews 7:3 NKJV)

Thank you,

jamie
June 14th, 2015, 11:50 AM
Who was Jesus the Christ paving the way for?


Jesus paved the way for the Family of God.

meshak
June 14th, 2015, 11:58 AM
Although i was speaking of the living God, the God of the living, it certainly applies to Jesus the Christ, for He, as God Almighty, is the God of the living, since death has been defeated. Thank you for bringing that to my attention.

Nope, you are mixing Jesus and His Father. Jesus is not God of living, as Jamie pointed out.


If Jesus the Christ was "created", He would've been part of the fall of man and all creation, would He not? If so, how could He, as a "created" being, ever be a Savior of anything or anyone, as He Himself would've needed a Savior.

Again, you are wrong. Jesus was not human, He was created by His Father and Spirit, directly unlike us. We are not spiritual being. Jesus was given authority and power to create everything by His Father.

Please give a courtesy to read when you throw question and being answered.

Read Jamie's quote. It said clearly it is talking about His Father, not Jesus.

Thanks.

brinny
June 14th, 2015, 12:05 PM
Nope, you are mixing Jesus and His Father. Jesus is not God of living, as Jamie pointed out.



Again, you are wrong. Jesus was not human, He was created by His Father and Spirit, directly unlike us. We are not spiritual being. Jesus was given authority and power to create everything by His Father.

Please give a courtesy to read when you throw question and being answered.

Read Jamie's quote. It said clearly it is talking about His Father, not Jesus.

Thanks.

Thank you kindly for sharing your views and opinions. Jesus the Christ is Who it is written He is.

Questions are welcome here and are encouraged. I will keep asking them.

Thank you kindly.

brinny
June 14th, 2015, 12:45 PM
Who was Jesus the Christ paving the way for?

Thank you kindly.


Jesus paved the way for the Family of God.

Prophets "pave the way" for someone Greater than they, as in John the Baptist "paving the way" for Jesus the Christ.

Thank you kindly.

achduke
June 14th, 2015, 12:59 PM
Prophets "pave the way" for someone Greater than they, as in John the Baptist "paving the way" for Jesus the Christ.

Thank you kindly.

Just because John the Baptist paved the way for Christ where does it say in Scripture that prophets must always pave the way for someone greater? Why can they not just prophecize?

keypurr
June 14th, 2015, 01:20 PM
Unfortunately it seems that those who deny the Trinity want God for themselves and only for themselves. I am afraid they have embraced something altogether different - and not out of love either.

That's a giant misstatement, we see the Trinity as a false doctrine because it is. The only why folks today believe in the trinity is because of tradition. Your judgement is flawed.

Jesus is the authority to build your faith on and he tells us that only his Father is the true God in John 17:3.

brinny
June 14th, 2015, 01:21 PM
Prophets "pave the way" for someone Greater than they, as in John the Baptist "paving the way" for Jesus the Christ.

Thank you kindly.


Just because John the Baptist paved the way for Christ where does it say in Scripture that prophets must always pave the way for someone greater? Why can they not just prophecize?

God's purpose in ALL of this from the beginning, specifically with prophets, has been to "pave the way" for God's "Remedy" for sin, and the curse and death, and that is Jesus the Christ. In all of Biblical history this has been the purpose in the prophets and all that occurred. There has been no other. ALL was the foretelling of the One Who would come to earth and die for our sins, and deal a death blow to Satan. ALL the prophets were paving the way for One greater than themselves, and that One greater than themselves is Jesus the Christ.

Thank you kindly.

keypurr
June 14th, 2015, 01:22 PM
The Word was made flesh, before that Jesus said "I am".

You got it backwards. Jesus did not start his ministers until he was anointed.

RevTestament
June 14th, 2015, 01:28 PM
Just because John the Baptist paved the way for Christ where does it say in Scripture that prophets must always pave the way for someone greater? Why can they not just prophecize?

You are right. Prophets do prophesy. Often they do not even understand their visions or prophecies. But Jesus did say all the prophets prophesied about Him - among other things, events, etc. Jesus was also a seer who interpreted the law. God put His Spirit on Jesus and taught Him as a child. But there are still visions and prophecies which need interpreting, and seers descended from Ephraim will probably be key to unlocking these scriptures. The law and prophets descended through Judah has been fulfilled.

keypurr
June 14th, 2015, 01:32 PM
Although i was speaking of the living God, the God of the living, it certainly applies to Jesus the Christ, for He, as God Almighty, is the God of the living, since death has been defeated. Thank you for bringing that to my attention.

If Jesus the Christ was "created", He would've been part of the fall of man and all creation, would He not? If so, how could He, as a "created" being, ever be a Savior of anything or anyone, as He Himself would've needed a Savior.

Please elaborate.

Thank you kindly.

Consider that Jesus was born, that makes him a creation.

Jesus tells you that his Father is the only true God, believe him.

RevTestament
June 14th, 2015, 01:37 PM
Originally Posted by Sancocho
The Word was made flesh, before that Jesus said "I am".

You got it backwards. Jesus did not start his ministers until he was anointed.

John 8:58
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

brinny
June 14th, 2015, 01:38 PM
Although i was speaking of the living God, the God of the living, it certainly applies to Jesus the Christ, for He, as God Almighty, is the God of the living, since death has been defeated. Thank you for bringing that to my attention.

If Jesus the Christ was "created", He would've been part of the fall of man and all creation, would He not? If so, how could He, as a "created" being, ever be a Savior of anything or anyone, as He Himself would've needed a Savior.

Please elaborate.

Thank you kindly.


Consider that Jesus was born, that makes him a creation.

Jesus tells you that his Father is the only true God, believe him.

Jesus the Christ did not "exist" before His miraculous birth as the Savior of the world?

It is written that the wise men, when finding Jesus the Christ, worshiped Him.

Why did they worship Him?

Thank you kindly.

achduke
June 14th, 2015, 01:38 PM
God's purpose in ALL of this from the beginning, specifically with prophets, has been to "pave the way" for God's "Remedy" for sin, and the curse and death, and that is Jesus the Christ. In all of Biblical history this has been the purpose in the prophets and all that occurred. There has been no other. ALL was the foretelling of the One Who would come to earth and die for our sins, and deal a death blow to Satan. ALL the prophets were paving the way for One greater than themselves, and that One greater than themselves is Jesus the Christ.

Thank you kindly.

Jesus did say he was a Prophet and he did phropisize about himself and the future. What point are you trying to make? Do you doubt that Jesus prophesied or that he referred to himself as a Prophet?

Bright Raven
June 14th, 2015, 01:55 PM
Jesus the Christ did not "exist" before His miraculous birth as the Savior of the world?

It is written that the wise men, when finding Jesus the Christ, worshiped Him.

Why did they worship Him?

Thank you kindly.

Connect the dots;

John 1:1-5Modern English Version (MEV)


1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 He was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were created through Him, and without Him nothing was created that was created.

4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of mankind.

5 The light shines in darkness, but the darkness has not overcome it.

jamie
June 14th, 2015, 02:15 PM
Consider that Jesus was born, that makes him a creation.


The preincarnate Christ was born as Jesus, a human.

OCTOBER23
June 14th, 2015, 09:53 PM
SINCE NO ONE READS OR REPLIES TO MY POSTS

THEN THERE IS NO REASON FOR ME TO BE HERE.

BYE - SEE YOU IN THE KINGDOM.

:rapture:

keypurr
June 14th, 2015, 10:26 PM
Connect the dots;

John 1:1-5Modern English Version (MEV)


1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 He was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were created through Him, and without Him nothing was created that was created.

4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of mankind.

5 The light shines in darkness, but the darkness has not overcome it.

Now all you have to do is find out who the word is.
Hint: It is not Jesus for he is flesh.

keypurr
June 14th, 2015, 10:28 PM
SINCE NO ONE READS OR REPLIES TO MY POSTS

THEN THERE IS NO REASON FOR ME TO BE HERE.

BYE - SEE YOU IN THE KINGDOM.

:rapture:

I read them. Stay

RevTestament
June 15th, 2015, 01:04 AM
SINCE NO ONE READS OR REPLIES TO MY POSTS

THEN THERE IS NO REASON FOR ME TO BE HERE.
Perhaps that is because everyone realizes you are Omega, and they have read your same stuff hundreds of times...
at least you have stopped with the comet-earth collision predictions...:)


BYE - SEE YOU IN THE KINGDOM.

:rapture:Well, I hope so despite your animosity towards LDS Christianity.
P.S. If it is any consolation, your 2024 prediction is not totally without some merit even if it is a lucky guess in a string of not-so-lucky guesses...until then have a good life.

CherubRam
June 15th, 2015, 01:37 AM
Connect the dots;

John 1:1-5Modern English Version (MEV)


1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 He was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were created through Him, and without Him nothing was created that was created.

4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of mankind.

5 The light shines in darkness, but the darkness has not overcome it.

Him who? God, or Yahshua? Greek word TON and THEON.
From the Scripture4All program. Link: http://www.scripture4all.org/

The Greek word "TON" is translated 1583 times as "the;" And 18 times as "the -one." It is used before nouns to mean a {certain-one-person-s,} or place, or thing. However, different translations of Greek do not always agree. That is the reason for my translatation of John 1:1 as "the only Divine Eternal." In English the word “one” can also be translated as “only.” TON: The only. THEON: Divine Eternal.

John 1:1

Greek:
en arche eimi ho logos kai ho logos eimi pros ton theon kai theos eimi ho logos

Interlinear:
en (in) arche (beginning) eimi (was) ho (the) logos (word) kai (and) ho (the) logos (word) eimi (was) pos (toward or with) ton (TON is a special definite article "the" meaning the one or only, it appears as TON instead of O in the Greek) theon (Divine Eternal) kai (and) theos (divine) eimi (was) ho (the) logos (word)

In English we have:
In beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the only Divine Eternal, and divine was the Word.

The word THEOS translates as Devine, but the word GOD is often given as an interpretation.

Why do translators drop off the definite article TON (the one or only) before Divine Eternal?

Your brother in Christ, Michael.

achduke
June 15th, 2015, 07:24 AM
Now all you have to do is find out who the word is.
Hint: It is not Jesus for he is flesh.

This an area not many talk about when talking about trinitarians vs non-trinitarians.

1) Who or What is the Word?

2) Who or what is the Holy Spirit?

3) How does the Word relate to the Holy Spirit?

4) The Bible talks about many Messengers of God. Are their multiple Holy Spirits?

5) How do the 7 Spirits relate to God and the Holy Spirit?

6) Why did Jesus have to go away before he could send the Holy Spirit?

Isaiah 11:1-3
1 A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse;
from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.
2 The Spirit of the Lord will rest on him—
the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding,
the Spirit of counsel and of might,
the Spirit of the knowledge and fear of the Lord—
3 and he will delight in the fear of the Lord.



Revelation 3:1
3 “And to the angel of the church in Sardis write: ‘The words of him who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars.
“ ‘I know your works. You have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead.

Revelation 1:4
4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia:
Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne

Revelation 4:5
5 From the throne came flashes of lightning, and rumblings and peals of thunder, and before the throne were burning seven torches of fire, which are the seven spirits of God,

Revelation 5:6
6 And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders I saw na Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

Zechariah 3:9
9 See, the stone I have set in front of Joshua! There are seven eyes on that one stone, and I will engrave an inscription on it,’ says the Lord Almighty, ‘and I will remove the sin of this land in a single day.

Zechariah 4:10
10 “Who dares despise the day of small things, since the seven eyes of the Lord that range throughout the earth will rejoice when they see the chosen capstonea in the hand of Zerubbabel?”

John 16:7
7But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

jamie
June 15th, 2015, 07:46 AM
Read Jamie's quote. It said clearly it is talking about His Father, not Jesus.


It's foolish to try to divide the unity that binds Father and Son.

jamie
June 15th, 2015, 08:02 AM
Consider that Jesus was born, that makes him a creation.


Jesus was born of woman like the rest of us, but how many of us lived before we were born?

You seem to be hung up on Jesus' birth and ignore the fact the Word who was made flesh existed at the beginning. What beginning? Any beginning you want the Word was already there.

Can a Spirit become human by saying "presto chango"? A Spirit can only become human by human birth.


In the beginning was the Word... (John 1:1 NKJV)


Don't try to change that.

CherubRam
June 15th, 2015, 08:44 AM
SINCE NO ONE READS OR REPLIES TO MY POSTS

THEN THERE IS NO REASON FOR ME TO BE HERE.

BYE - SEE YOU IN THE KINGDOM.

:rapture:

I have been reading what you write. Sometimes I even reply. Lately you have not said anything to compel me to reply.

RevTestament
June 15th, 2015, 08:48 AM
Jesus was born of woman like the rest of us, but how many of us lived before we were born?

You seem to be hung up on Jesus' birth and ignore the fact the Word who was made flesh existed at the beginning. What beginning? Any beginning you want the Word was already there.

Can a Spirit become human by saying "presto chango"? A Spirit can only become human by human birth.


In the beginning was the Word... (John 1:1 NKJV)


Don't try to change that.
You make a good point that a spirit can only become human by human birth, and becoming a living soul...
But that doesn't mean the spirit God breathed into our created bodies was also created or came from this creation...
Ecclesiastes 12:7
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Maybe Jeremiah really was "like" Christ, but just didn't remember:
Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

brinny
June 15th, 2015, 08:53 AM
SINCE NO ONE READS OR REPLIES TO MY POSTS

THEN THERE IS NO REASON FOR ME TO BE HERE.

BYE - SEE YOU IN THE KINGDOM.

:rapture:

i read your posts when i see them. I've replied to a post of yours in a thread i began.

If you were to express what's on yer mind here in this thread, what would you say?

Thank you kindly.

RevTestament
June 15th, 2015, 09:06 AM
This an area not many talk about when talking about trinitarians vs non-trinitarians.

1) Who or What is the Word?

2) Who or what is the Holy Spirit?

3) How does the Word relate to the Holy Spirit?

4) The Bible talks about many Messengers of God. Are their multiple Holy Spirits?

5) How do the 7 Spirits relate to God and the Holy Spirit?

6) Why did Jesus have to go away before he could send the Holy Spirit?

Isaiah 11:1-3
1 A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse;
from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.
2 The Spirit of the Lord will rest on him—
the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding,
the Spirit of counsel and of might,
the Spirit of the knowledge and fear of the Lord—
3 and he will delight in the fear of the Lord.



Revelation 3:1
3 “And to the angel of the church in Sardis write: ‘The words of him who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars.
“ ‘I know your works. You have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead.

Revelation 1:4
4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia:
Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne

Revelation 4:5
5 From the throne came flashes of lightning, and rumblings and peals of thunder, and before the throne were burning seven torches of fire, which are the seven spirits of God,

Revelation 5:6
6 And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders I saw na Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

Zechariah 3:9
9 See, the stone I have set in front of Joshua! There are seven eyes on that one stone, and I will engrave an inscription on it,’ says the Lord Almighty, ‘and I will remove the sin of this land in a single day.

Zechariah 4:10
10 “Who dares despise the day of small things, since the seven eyes of the Lord that range throughout the earth will rejoice when they see the chosen capstonea in the hand of Zerubbabel?”

John 16:7
7But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

Some intriguing questions that I think "trinitarians" gloss over, or do not consider. Here is another scripture to throw in the pot -
Isaiah 63:
9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.
10 But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.
11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?

meshak
June 15th, 2015, 02:17 PM
It's foolish to try to divide the unity that binds Father and Son.

Are you saying it was not talking about the God the Father, and it was Jesus.

So you believe Father and Jesus make one God?

Is that it?

jamie
June 15th, 2015, 03:26 PM
Are you saying it was not talking about the God the Father, and it was Jesus.

So you believe Father and Jesus make one God?

Is that it?


Luke was talking about God who is singular and plural. They both constituted the God of Abram, Isaac, and Jacob.

Christ made the Sinaitic covenant through Moses according to the Father's will. They work in concert.

meshak
June 15th, 2015, 03:30 PM
Luke was talking about God who is singular and plural. They both constituted the God of Abram, Isaac, and Jacob.

Do you believe what you quoted was talking about Jesus and His Father?

It sais "I am the God of Abraham...."

So this I am is both The Father and Son?

CherubRam
June 15th, 2015, 06:04 PM
Do you believe what you quoted was talking about Jesus and His Father?

It sais "I am the God of Abraham...."

So this I am is both The Father and Son?

In Matthew 26 and Mark 14 we have the same story with two different acknowledgements.

Matthew 26:62. Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, "Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?"
63. But Jesus remained silent. The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God."
64. "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

Mark 14:60. Then the high priest stood up before them and asked Jesus, "Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?" 61. But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer.
Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?"

62. "I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

In Hebrew there is the word "I," but there is no such words as "I am."
"I am" is an interpretation for "I Lived" also here in John 8. I Lived" is the trans-literal.
John 8:58
New International Version (NIV)
58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” {I lived} is the correct translation.

jamie
June 15th, 2015, 06:46 PM
Do you believe what you quoted was talking about Jesus and His Father?

It sais "I am the God of Abraham...."

So this I am is both The Father and Son?


What we normally call the Holy Spirit.

keypurr
June 15th, 2015, 07:37 PM
Now all you have to do is find out who the word is.
Hint: It is not Jesus for he is flesh.








Jesus was born of woman like the rest of us, but how many of us lived before we were born?

You seem to be hung up on Jesus' birth and ignore the fact the Word who was made flesh existed at the beginning. What beginning? Any beginning you want the Word was already there.

Can a Spirit become human by saying "presto chango"? A Spirit can only become human by human birth.


In the beginning was the Word... (John 1:1 NKJV)


Don't try to change that.

I do not see that Jesus live before he was born. You do not realize that the Spirit Christ spoke through Jesus. I do not see Jesus was the Word that became flesh.

The spiritual son Christ did indeed inhabit Jesus. Christ is the true son that God sent. Jesus was not born with the express image in him.

God created everything through his express image, that would be a spirit. A spirit became flesh. Jesus was only a man, a sin less man, who qualified to be the Lamb.

jamie
June 15th, 2015, 08:29 PM
I do not see that Jesus live before he was born.


Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was I AM." (John 8:58 NKJV)

Keypurr, why not stick with the scriptures and keep it simple?

Savior existed all through history. He didn't just pop up one day as a baby .

Savior became mortal so there is remission of sin.

For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. (Romans 5:10 (NKJV)

meshak
June 15th, 2015, 08:32 PM
What we normally call the Holy Spirit.

Please answer my question because your comment was not clear.

thank you.

Angel4Truth
June 15th, 2015, 08:33 PM
I accidentally stumbled onto a thread today. Come to find out, it was a debate about the trinity vs anti-trinity.

It got me to thinking.

Does Nontrinitarianism believe that Jesus was created?

Thank you kindly.

Some yes, not all. Some believe that the Father, Son and Spirit are all one person.

jamie
June 15th, 2015, 08:42 PM
Please answer my question because your comment was not clear.


Jesus prayed, "I in them and You in Me..." (John 17:23 NKJV)

The Father in the Son and the two of them in us.

The Holy Spirit.

meshak
June 15th, 2015, 08:47 PM
Jesus prayed, "I in them and You in Me..." (John 17:23 NKJV)

The Father in the Son and the two of them in us.

The Holy Spirit.

that's not original quote I am asking about.

Do you know you have been mixed messages that confused me many times and I had to ask you many times?

It was all honest questions. And this one is honest question too.

thanks.

keypurr
June 15th, 2015, 10:06 PM
Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was I AM." (John 8:58 NKJV)

Keypurr, why not stick with the scriptures and keep it simple?

Savior existed all through history. He didn't just pop up one day as a baby .

Savior became mortal so there is remission of sin.

For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. (Romans 5:10 (NKJV)

It is my belief that Christ, the express image, SPOKE through Jesus.

Christ existed in the past, not Jesus. Christ was at the creation and was not a man, Jesus was a man. Jesus is the flesh son of God, he is the BODY God prepared for Christ, the spiritual son that HE SENT.

Christ is a special spiritual being, you do not see that. God created an exact copy of his BEING. God is a spirit, this copy is a spirit.

Heb 1:3

(GNB) He reflects the brightness of God's glory and is the exact likeness of God's own being, sustaining the universe with his powerful word. After achieving forgiveness for the sins of all human beings, he sat down in heaven at the right side of God, the Supreme Power.

(GW) His Son is the reflection of God's glory and the exact likeness of God's being. He holds everything together through his powerful words. After he had cleansed people from their sins, he received the highest position, the one next to the Father in heaven.

(ISV) He is the reflection of God's glory and the exact likeness of his being, and he holds everything together by his powerful word. After he had provided a cleansing from sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Highest Majesty

(KJV) Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

(NIrV) The Son is the gleaming brightness of God's glory. He is the exact likeness of God's being. He uses his powerful word to hold all things together. He provided the way for people to be made pure from sin. Then he sat down at the right hand of the King, the Majesty in heaven.

(NIV) The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

Grosnick Marowbe
June 16th, 2015, 01:52 AM
confused me

This is true! I'm surprised you can even use a Computer?

Grosnick Marowbe
June 16th, 2015, 02:00 AM
I don't know how Meshak can learn anything? She ONLY trusts
in Matthew and Mark and rejects the rest of the Bible.

Grosnick Marowbe
June 16th, 2015, 02:02 AM
Meshak has said that, "The Jehovah Witnesses" are a Godly people . Nobody else though!

Grosnick Marowbe
June 16th, 2015, 02:04 AM
Meshak hopes that her good works, deeds, and so called, obedience will save her!

Grosnick Marowbe
June 16th, 2015, 02:05 AM
She despises the Apostle Paul and has called him an "anti-Christ!"

Grosnick Marowbe
June 16th, 2015, 02:07 AM
It is my belief that Christ, the express image, SPOKE through Jesus.



Your "BELIEF" is a false doctrine!

Grosnick Marowbe
June 16th, 2015, 02:10 AM
I see Jesus as a man. All men are creations.

But the express image is a spirit like God is. Being an image that is a creation also. I see this image as Christ, the spiritual son of God.

You ought not to call yourself a "Christian." "Other" would be more appropriate!

You don't trust in the Deity of Christ!

CherubRam
June 16th, 2015, 02:33 AM
It is my belief that Christ, the express image, SPOKE through Jesus.

Christ existed in the past, not Jesus. Christ was at the creation and was not a man, Jesus was a man. Jesus is the flesh son of God, he is the BODY God prepared for Christ, the spiritual son that HE SENT.

Christ is a special spiritual being, you do not see that. God created an exact copy of his BEING. God is a spirit, this copy is a spirit.

Heb 1:3

(GNB) He reflects the brightness of God's glory and is the exact likeness of God's own being, sustaining the universe with his powerful word. After achieving forgiveness for the sins of all human beings, he sat down in heaven at the right side of God, the Supreme Power.

(GW) His Son is the reflection of God's glory and the exact likeness of God's being. He holds everything together through his powerful words. After he had cleansed people from their sins, he received the highest position, the one next to the Father in heaven.

(ISV) He is the reflection of God's glory and the exact likeness of his being, and he holds everything together by his powerful word. After he had provided a cleansing from sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Highest Majesty

(KJV) Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

(NIrV) The Son is the gleaming brightness of God's glory. He is the exact likeness of God's being. He uses his powerful word to hold all things together. He provided the way for people to be made pure from sin. Then he sat down at the right hand of the King, the Majesty in heaven.

(NIV) The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
It is believed by some that Christ was the first created being by Yahwah. Before Christ was born into this world he was called Peniel and Messenger of Yahwah. Or as Pagans have it, (The Angel of The Lord.)
(KJV) Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

jamie
June 16th, 2015, 08:37 AM
Christ is a special spiritual being...


Christ is a special spiritual being who already existed in the beginning. Was he created? No, scripture does not support that claim.


In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. (Genesis 1:1 NKJV)

Who is the Creator God?


All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. (John 1:3 NKJV)

Christ was born as a human.


That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and our hands have handled concerning the Word of life - the life was manifested and we have seen and bear witness and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us, that which we have seen and heard we declare to you that you also may have fellowship with us, and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. (1 John 1:1-3 NKJV)

Keypurr, why not believe the scriptures as they are written without adding to them?

keypurr
June 16th, 2015, 09:36 PM
You ought not to call yourself a "Christian." "Other" would be more appropriate!

You don't trust in the Deity of Christ!


GM are you always going to make yourself look like a jerk?

You have no clue as to what I have been posting.

keypurr
June 16th, 2015, 09:45 PM
Christ is a special spiritual being who already existed in the beginning. Was he created? No, scripture does not support that claim.


In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. (Genesis 1:1 NKJV)

Who is the Creator God?


All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. (John 1:3 NKJV)

Christ was born as a human.


That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and our hands have handled concerning the Word of life - the life was manifested and we have seen and bear witness and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us, that which we have seen and heard we declare to you that you also may have fellowship with us, and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. (1 John 1:1-3 NKJV)

Keypurr, why not believe the scriptures as they are written without adding to them?


Your twisting his words jamie.

God the Father is the creator, all things come from the Father who is the only true God.

God created it all through his first creation, the express image, a spirit being copy of The Father.

Scripture fully supports these facts.

I do believe scripture without all the false fairytales that tradition has misled us with.

keypurr
June 16th, 2015, 09:48 PM
It is believed by some that Christ was the first created being by Yahwah. Before Christ was born into this world he was called Peniel and Messenger of Yahwah. Or as Pagans have it, (The Angel of The Lord.)

(KJV) Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;


Over 1400 posts on my other thread and they still don't see it.

Grosnick Marowbe
June 17th, 2015, 01:53 AM
That's a giant misstatement, we see the Trinity as a false doctrine because it is. The only why folks today believe in the trinity is because of tradition. Your judgement is flawed.

Jesus is the authority to build your faith on and he tells us that only his Father is the true God in John 17:3.

You're filled to the brim with 'false doctrine.'

Grosnick Marowbe
June 17th, 2015, 01:56 AM
GM are you always going to make yourself look like a jerk?

You have no clue as to what I have been posting.

I ONLY seem to see your 'false doctrines!' That's all I need
to read in order to see that, you don't know what you're talking
about!

Grosnick Marowbe
June 17th, 2015, 01:58 AM
Keypurr cannot see truth, he is blind towards it!

jamie
June 17th, 2015, 07:24 AM
God created it all through his first creation, the express image, a spirit being copy of The Father.


What biblical scripture refers to Christ being created?

keypurr
June 17th, 2015, 11:22 AM
What biblical scripture refers to Christ being created?


Heb 1:3 does. Also Col 1:15.

The express IMAGE is a creation.

Can you name ANY image that is not a creation?

There are no images that are not created.

keypurr
June 17th, 2015, 11:26 AM
I ONLY seem to see your 'false doctrines!' That's all I need

to read in order to see that, you don't know what you're talking

about!


I know that YOU do not understand my words. They require intellect which you seem to be lacking in.

jamie
June 17th, 2015, 01:41 PM
What biblical scripture refers to Christ being created?

We know Christ was there at the beginning and made all things.

Angel4Truth
June 17th, 2015, 01:44 PM
Heb 1:3 does. Also Col 1:15.

The express IMAGE is a creation.

Can you name ANY image that is not a creation?

There are no images that are not created.

An image is a copy, not a creation.

If i zerox my face, youll have a copy of my face, its still me in the image. It doesnt change into something else.

Wow, you change all kinds of meanings instead of admitting what something actually says. You take something remote you can bob and weave with, and ignore the many very clear without a doubt scriptures that state Christ is God in the flesh.

Grosnick Marowbe
June 17th, 2015, 02:10 PM
An image is a copy, not a creation.

If i zerox my face, youll have a copy of my face, its still me in the image. It doesnt change into something else.

Wow, you change all kinds of meanings instead of admitting what something actually says. You take something remote you can bob and weave with, and ignore the many very clear without a doubt scriptures that state Christ is God in the flesh.

Amen!

Grosnick Marowbe
June 17th, 2015, 02:14 PM
I know that YOU do not understand my words. They require intellect which you seem to be lacking in.

No! In order to understand your kind of reasoning, one must be a
mental patient!

Word based mystic
June 17th, 2015, 02:20 PM
It is written that the King of Righteousness is without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.

The King was made like the Son of God because the Son of God had not yet been born.


Here mortal men receive tithes, but there he receives them of whom it is witnessed that he lives. (Hebrews 7:8 NKJV)

The Word/firstborn of all creation/creator of all things is also the Son of God.

colossians 1:16 makes that pretty clear He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.…

John 1:3 affirms this.
john 20:28 does not denounce thomas's declaration Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

Genesis 1:1 wraps it all up by saying God created the heavens and the earth.

Word based mystic
June 17th, 2015, 03:21 PM
first born of all creation.

It does not say the first creation.

Gods substance in the material realm is born out of God himself.

a creation is not God substance, nor is it eternal, nor does it have life within itself.

Only God is the (Life).

only God is never ending

and Jesus is described as never ending. And as the LIFE.

Jesus is also the LIGHT. John 8:12

John 1:5 declares GOD is Light.

isaiah 12:2 describes GOD as your salvation.

Acts 4:12 and JESUS is described as salvation and under (no other name)

And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.

Bright Raven
June 17th, 2015, 03:29 PM
I accidentally stumbled onto a thread today. Come to find out, it was a debate about the trinity vs anti-trinity.

It got me to thinking.

Does Nontrinitarianism believe that Jesus was created?

Thank you kindly.

That is right and it could not be further from the truth.

John 1:1 Modern English Version (MEV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 Modern English Version (MEV)

14 The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, the glory as the only Son of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Pretty straight forward huh.

keypurr
June 17th, 2015, 06:59 PM
An image is a copy, not a creation.

If i zerox my face, youll have a copy of my face, its still me in the image. It doesnt change into something else.

Wow, you change all kinds of meanings instead of admitting what something actually says. You take something remote you can bob and weave with, and ignore the many very clear without a doubt scriptures that state Christ is God in the flesh.


All copies are created.

Your zeroxed face would be created.

Reflections are images are created from the subject matter that they are a reflection of.

Look in the mirror, your image is created, but it is not your express image.

Name ANY image that is NOT created?

Think friend, image, copy are creations. I am not bending the truth, I am showing you the truth.

Angel4Truth
June 17th, 2015, 07:00 PM
All copies are created.

Your zeroxed face would be created.

Reflections are images are created from the subject matter that they are a reflection of.

Look in the mirror, your image is created, but it is not your express image.

Name ANY image that is NOT created?

Think friend, image, copy are creations. I am not bending the truth, I am showing you the truth.

An image of me, is still me in the image, no matter what you want to call it, it wont be someone else.

You are bending the truth till it breaks, to your own misfortune.

keypurr
June 17th, 2015, 07:01 PM
Amen!


A copy is a creation. Think GM. You need the original to make a copy.

God created his express image, an exact copy of his being.

Angel4Truth
June 17th, 2015, 07:02 PM
A copy is a creation. Think GM. You need the original to make a copy.

God created his express image, an exact copy of his being.

Wrong, even a copy of me, would still be me being expressed.

It would not magically change to someone else.

keypurr
June 17th, 2015, 07:03 PM
No! In order to understand your kind of reasoning, one must be a

mental patient!


No, my IQ is well above average. I have the power of reason.
You just do not see what God has given me to share with you.

1Mind1Spirit
June 17th, 2015, 07:05 PM
THERE IS NO TRINITY.

THE HOLY SPIRIT-COMFORTER IS THE MIND OF CHRIST PUT INSIDE THE MINDS

OF MEN TO HELP THEM OVERCOME SIN AND MARK THEM FOR RESURRECTION.

--JESUS CAME TO EARTH AND BUILT GODLY CHARACTER AND RESISTANCE TO SIN

AND WENT BACK UP TO THE FATHER AND SENT THAT GODLY CHARACTER DOWN TO US.

1 Corinthians 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord,

That he may instruct him?

But we have the mind of Christ.
----------------------------------
1 Corinthians 6:11 And ye are washed, ye are sanctified,

and ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus by the Spirit of our God.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

:thumb:

You might wanna drop the 7 year peace pact idea.

The last week was 70 years long.

Jesus cutoff the sacrifice in the middle of it.

He confirmed his covenant for the rest of the week up to AD 70.

keypurr
June 17th, 2015, 07:09 PM
The Word/firstborn of all creation/creator of all things is also the Son of God.



colossians 1:16 makes that pretty clear He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.…



John 1:3 affirms this.

john 20:28 does not denounce thomas's declaration Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"



Genesis 1:1 wraps it all up by saying God created the heavens and the earth.


Yes, consider that this image is a form of God, yet not God as told in Phil 2. This express image is a spirit not a man. Thomas saw this in Jesus. Christ denied being God.

1Mind1Spirit
June 17th, 2015, 07:11 PM
is it possible to be a Savior if one is "created"?

Thank you kindly.

If that was one of the reasons in God's purpose why not? :idunno:

keypurr
June 17th, 2015, 07:12 PM
:thumb:



You might wanna drop the 7 year peace pact idea.



The last week was 70 years long.



Jesus cutoff the sacrifice in the middle of it.



He confirmed his covenant for the rest of the week up to AD 70.


The seventy years ended at the stoning of Stephen.

1Mind1Spirit
June 17th, 2015, 07:41 PM
The first verse you posted actually could apply to any prophet, for all of God's prophets did this very thing. Otherwise they would not have been His prophets. They all spoke His Words that He put into them, did they not? However, none of them qualified to be a Savior and to die on the cross, shedding blood for our sins, did they? Why not?

Thank you kindly.


No Brinny.

Jesus was that prophet.


Acts 3:23 KJV

23 And it shall come to pass , that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.


Now while it is true that Jesus died for our sins, it is not the only reason he was sent.

My favorite reason is that our big brother loved us so much that he agreed to be made like us so that he could bring us to glory.




Hebrews 2:10 KJV


10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things (God the Father), in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation (Jesus) perfect through sufferings.


Hebrews 2:17 KJV

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.


Jesus, just as David was AS the foreshadow, became prophet, priest and king.

MUCH MORE.....



Romans 5:10 KJV


10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled , we shall be saved by his life.

1Mind1Spirit
June 17th, 2015, 08:02 PM
Although i was speaking of the living God, the God of the living, it certainly applies to Jesus the Christ, for He, as God Almighty, is the God of the living, since death has been defeated. Thank you for bringing that to my attention.




Death has not been defeated.



1 Corinthians 15:26 KJV


26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.




Jesus overcame the world by his life and death.


John 16:33 KJV


33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer ; I have overcome the world.




He now has the keys of hell and death.



Revelation 1:18 KJV


18 I am he that liveth , and was dead; and, behold , I am alive for evermore , Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.




If Jesus the Christ was "created", He would've been part of the fall of man and all creation, would He not? If so, how could He, as a "created" being, ever be a Savior of anything or anyone, as He Himself would've needed a Savior.

There was no fall.

God declared the end from the beginning.

Sinless sinners in paradise.

As far as Jesus needing a savior.......

Who raised him from the dead?


Romans 4:24 KJV


24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed , if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;





Please elaborate.

Hope yuh dont mind me doin' the elaboratin' Sis. :)



Thank you kindly.

Welcome.

Grosnick Marowbe
June 18th, 2015, 04:39 AM
A copy is a creation. Think GM. You need the original to make a copy.

God created his express image, an exact copy of his being.

You're guilty of "Screwball reasoning." There's a difference between
the Spiritual and physical world. You don't have the indwelling and
sealing of the Holy Spirit. Your mind can only relate to the physical
realm. You have no discernment.

Grosnick Marowbe
June 18th, 2015, 04:42 AM
No, my IQ is well above average. I have the power of reason.
You just do not see what God has given me to share with you.

You're delusional. and have an over-inflated sense of yourself. Pathetic.

jamie
June 18th, 2015, 07:56 AM
Keypurr, let's start at the beginning and work from there.


In the beginning was the Word... (John 1:1 NKJV)

keypurr
June 18th, 2015, 10:24 AM
Keypurr, let's start at the beginning and work from there.


In the beginning was the Word... (John 1:1 NKJV)


Ok, who was with God?
Jesus was not born yet.

And it seems God had someone or something that he used to make everything.

Whatever this son is he is exactly like his father in all ways.

Take it from there jamie

Puppet
June 18th, 2015, 11:31 AM
Ok, who was with God?
Jesus was not born yet.

And it seems God had someone or something that he used to make everything.

Whatever this son is he is exactly like his father in all ways.

Take it from there jamie

God knew me before I was born. I don't know if He knew you but the bible said God knew Jesus. Is Jesus being in flesh all you got? Whats with the fascination of Jesus having a form of human body and not talk about His formless Spirit?

jamie
June 18th, 2015, 12:12 PM
Ok, who was with God?
Jesus was not born yet.


Jesus not yet being born of flesh does not negate him being in the beginning. God's plan of salvation began with Adam and salvation requires a Savior, Jesus Christ. There is no other name for salvation.


Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.
(Acts 4:12 NKJV)

StanJ
June 18th, 2015, 01:57 PM
All copies are created.
Your zeroxed face would be created.
Reflections are images are created from the subject matter that they are a reflection of.
Look in the mirror, your image is created, but it is not your express image.
Name ANY image that is NOT created?
Think friend, image, copy are creations. I am not bending the truth, I am showing you the truth.

That's right, COPIES are created, but as Jesus was BORN as the WORD incarnate, He is NOT a copy of anything. John 1:1, 14 (NIV)
As far as a mirror is concerned, here are a couple of verses you should seriously consider. 1 Cor 13:12 (NIV) and James 1:23 (NIV)
That you continuously stick to these words "express image", when you have been constantly refuted and shown that the proper rendering is EXACT REPRESENTATION, from the Greek word χαρακτήρ (character),is typical of false teachers who hang their dogma on a single point from scripture that they have twisted. The Greek does NOT connote COPY, but originality of His substructure, basis; subsistence, essence, shown in the Greek as ὑπόστασις (hypostasis).
You are not a copy either, but you indeed have been inculcated to your apostate condition.

StanJ
June 18th, 2015, 01:58 PM
You're guilty of "Screwball reasoning." There's a difference between
the Spiritual and physical world. You don't have the indwelling and
sealing of the Holy Spirit. Your mind can only relate to the physical
realm. You have no discernment.


That is called APOSTATE.

StanJ
June 18th, 2015, 01:59 PM
Keypurr, let's start at the beginning and work from there.

In the beginning was the Word... (John 1:1 NKJV)



He doesn't recognize the truth in scripture, as he has become apostate. Heb 6:4-6 (NIV) describes him to a tee.

rainee
June 18th, 2015, 02:10 PM
The main intention of non-trinitarianism is to deny the deity of Christ.

Christ Himself is the Creator, all things were made by Him and without Him was not anything made which has been made
Tots I posted Hooyah! on your pos rep (it is the US navy war cry) since you nailed it so loverly!
BUT the dang spell check changed it to Hookah before I knew it and wouldn't let me fix it ARRGGHH
So please understand it was supposed to be about encouragement and not drug paraphernalia...:shocked:

Word based mystic
June 18th, 2015, 02:14 PM
Tots I posted Hooyah! on your pos rep (it is the US navy war cry) since you nailed it so loverly!
BUT the dang spell check changed it to Hookah before I knew it and wouldn't let me fix it ARRGGHH
So please understand it was supposed to be about encouragement and not drug paraphernalia...:shocked:

i am ex-navy corpsman

keypurr
June 18th, 2015, 02:23 PM
God knew me before I was born. I don't know if He knew you but the bible said God knew Jesus. Is Jesus being in flesh all you got? Whats with the fascination of Jesus having a form of human body and not talk about His formless Spirit?

How does that explain John 1?

rainee
June 18th, 2015, 02:23 PM
i am ex-navy corpsman
Really? cool.
So did I spell it right? :)
I lived near a Navy base, what was your last base may I ask? Sherman was military I think. :think:
Are you a Trin?

keypurr
June 18th, 2015, 02:31 PM
Jesus not yet being born of flesh does not negate him being in the beginning. God's plan of salvation began with Adam and salvation requires a Savior, Jesus Christ. There is no other name for salvation.


Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.
(Acts 4:12 NKJV)

Yes it does for he is a man. Man was not at the beginning.

God's plan was made before the world was made. Yet Jesus was born many, many years later. There was no man at the creation. So the quest is: Who and What was at the creation with the Father?

I do not dispute that Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior. What I dispute is the form of the son that was at the creation.

When will you folks get the point I am trying to show you?

keypurr
June 18th, 2015, 02:42 PM
That's right, COPIES are created, but as Jesus was BORN as the WORD incarnate, He is NOT a copy of anything. John 1:1, 14 (NIV)
As far as a mirror is concerned, here are a couple of verses you should seriously consider. 1 Cor 13:12 (NIV) and James 1:23 (NIV)
That you continuously stick to these words "express image", when you have been constantly refuted and shown that the proper rendering is EXACT REPRESENTATION, from the Greek word χαρακτήρ (character),is typical of false teachers who hang their dogma on a single point from scripture that they have twisted. The Greek does NOT connote COPY, but originality of His substructure, basis; subsistence, essence, shown in the Greek as ὑπόστασις (hypostasis).
You are not a copy either, but you indeed have been inculcated to your apostate condition.

Yes Jesus was born, but the Christ in him was created, the Christ in him was at the creation, the Christ in him is a form of God, not God. Jesus was not born with the Christ in him, for Christ has the fullness of the father, he would not have to grow in wisdom as Jesus did. Also Acts 10:38 tells us that Jesus received his POWER at his anointing.

Express Image, exact representation or exact copy of his being all mean pretty much the same Stan. Translators differ from your thoughts friend. As I said before, I base my faith on many translations to find the content of what the verses are saying. NIV is OK but no translation is perfect. Even the manuscripts that we have are doctored up by the early scribes.

Word based mystic
June 18th, 2015, 02:47 PM
actually u.s. marines are part of the navy and their shout is ooh-rah

but we sailors say just like you stated hooyah.



The beauty and wonder of our Creator is awesome.

That our God would display himself in physical form as the WORD in this universe

and also maintain Himself as Spirit as the Father Whom no man has seen and has not a physical body is too marvelous for our carnal minds to conceive.

Some would say the trinity concept is neither logical or scientific.

But the beauty of this is that it once again forces us to walk in the Spirit to comprehend spirit realities.

Gods greater desire for men is that we see and enter the kingdom of God not keep our eyes on carnal concepts.

His ravenous love for us can only be completely comprehended by our spirit.
Thus His desire as in ephesians 3:16-19 so that we may be filled with (all) the (fullness) of GOD.
This is an impossibility yet at the same time an expectation and can only be fulfilled through His work.

our fleshly and carnal glimpses of God are a shadow of things to come. And are foggy and unclear.

john 20:29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.

In a small way we the Body of Christ become the physical expression of Christ on the earth now.

Because He lives in us.

how much more important with this concept should we be Holy, loving and filled with peace.

a light on a hill.

StanJ
June 18th, 2015, 02:50 PM
Yes Jesus was born, but the Christ in him was created, the Christ in him was at the creation, the Christ in him is a form of God, not God. Jesus was not born with the Christ in him, for Christ has the fullness of the father, he would not have to grow in wisdom as Jesus did. Also Acts 10:38 tells us that Jesus received his POWER at his anointing.

Express Image, exact representation or exact copy of his being all mean pretty much the same Stan. Translators differ from your thoughts friend. As I said before, I base my faith on many translations to find the content of what the verses are saying. NIV is OK but no translation is perfect. Even the manuscripts that we have are doctored up by the early scribes.

No, the Christ in Him was the WORD. John 1:14 (NIV)
Not a FORM of God, GOD, period. Distorting or misrepresenting what John 1:1 says is fallacious at best.
Yes He was born as GOD, Matt 1:23 (NIV)
Messiah means anointed one and that is what Jesus was BORN as, again John 1:14 (NIV)
If it all means the same thing why do you insist on using the wrong connotation? ONLY the KJV differs keypurr, which of course is a big part of your problem.
Do you even know how many manuscripts exist, and how very little they differ?

StanJ
June 18th, 2015, 02:52 PM
actually u.s. marines are part of the navy and their shout is ooh-rah, but we sailors say just like you stated hooyah.

Who says booyah?

jamie
June 18th, 2015, 02:53 PM
Yes it does for he is a man. Man was not at the beginning.


Which means Jesus Christ was not human at the beginning. On the contrary, John tells us he was God and was with God and he made everything that was made.

How can you mess that up?

StanJ
June 18th, 2015, 02:55 PM
Which means Jesus Christ was not human at the beginning. On the contrary, John tells us he was God and was with God and he made everything that was made. How can you mess that up?

He's a Uni...that's how.

rainee
June 18th, 2015, 02:57 PM
actually u.s. marines are part of the navy and their shout is ooh-rah

but we sailors say just like you stated hooyah.



The beauty and wonder of our Creator is awesome.

That our God would display himself in physical form as the WORD in this universe

and also maintain Himself as Spirit as the Father Whom no man has seen and has not a physical body is too marvelous for our carnal minds to conceive.

Some would say the trinity concept is neither logical or scientific.

But the beauty of this is that it once again forces us to walk in the Spirit to comprehend spirit realities.

Gods greater desire for men is that we see and enter the kingdom of God not keep our eyes on carnal concepts.

His ravenous love for us can only be completely comprehended by our spirit.
Thus His desire as in ephesians 3:16-19 so that we may be filled with (all) the (fullness) of GOD.
This is an impossibility yet at the same time an expectation and can only be fulfilled through His work.

our fleshly and carnal glimpses of God are a shadow of things to come. And are foggy and unclear.

john 20:29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.

In a small way we the Body of Christ become the physical expression of Christ on the earth now.

Because He lives in us.

how much more important with this concept should we be Holy, loving and filled with peace.

a light on a hill.

Very very well said, ex sailor :)

Why is your name mystic, may I ask?

Word based mystic
June 18th, 2015, 03:04 PM
Very very well said, ex sailor :)

Why is your name mystic, may I ask?

so few pursue the Spirit walk in Christ.

main part of the definition of mystic is

(one who believes in the spiritual apprehension of truths that are beyond the intellect)

and then the first part of my name is WORD BASED

being that my foundation is based on scripture as well as THE WORD whom is Jesus Christ.

It shows my focus in discussions.

I actually would have better defined myself as Love based mystic
but too many would want to label me occultic or other stupid definitions.

So i define my main theme scripture as ephesians 3:16-19

Grosnick Marowbe
June 18th, 2015, 04:05 PM
That is called APOSTATE.

Yep!

Puppet
June 18th, 2015, 04:13 PM
How does that explain John 1?

What does John 1 say?

keypurr
June 18th, 2015, 06:35 PM
Which means Jesus Christ was not human at the beginning. On the contrary, John tells us he was God and was with God and he made everything that was made.

How can you mess that up?

It is not me that misunderstands John 1.

John does not tell us he is God, you believe in the errors of the RCC. Your shoes no longer fit me jamie, I used to believe that too.

Christ is a god and was with God at the creation. He was in spirit form then. He became flesh and was seen by man. John 1 only verifies my thoughts.

keypurr
June 18th, 2015, 06:37 PM
Very very well said, ex sailor :)

Why is your name mystic, may I ask?

I was in the Navy too.

No, I was not an oarsman. 1953-1956

keypurr
June 18th, 2015, 06:41 PM
What does John 1 say?

It say that Christ is a form of God and was with God at the creation. Further study says he is the spiritual son of the most high God. He took the form of man by living in the body God prepared for him, Jesus.

Pure and simple when you understand his words.
.

Grosnick Marowbe
June 18th, 2015, 07:39 PM
I was in the Navy too.

No, I was not an oarsman. 1953-1956

You should be an Admiral by now?

Grosnick Marowbe
June 18th, 2015, 07:40 PM
It say that Christ is a form of God and was with God at the creation. Further study says he is the spiritual son of the most high God. He took the form of man by living in the body God prepared for him, Jesus.

Pure and simple when you understand his words.
.

Where in the Bible does it say, "He took the form of man by living in the body God prepared for him,?"
Were does it say, "he is the spiritual son of the most high God?"

keypurr
June 18th, 2015, 07:42 PM
You should be an Admiral by now?

You don't read good friend.

I gave up my oars in 1956.

keypurr
June 18th, 2015, 08:18 PM
Where in the Bible does it say, "He took the form of man by living in the body God prepared for him,?"
Were does it say, "he is the spiritual son of the most high God?"

Try reading the express image thread GM. Everything is there for you inspection and learning.

Bright Raven
June 18th, 2015, 08:26 PM
Try reading the express image thread GM. Everything is there for you inspection and learning.

1 Corinthians 14:33Modern English Version (MEV)

33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Why read about your god of confusion. My God is no such thing.

Grosnick Marowbe
June 18th, 2015, 09:23 PM
Try reading the express image thread GM. Everything is there for you inspection and learning.

No thanks, I don't want to waste my time looking
into your "oddball" false doctrine. Just because
you're what they call, "elderly" doesn't mean
you have all the answers to all that is.

Remember that! Age doesn't necessarily equal,
uncanny intelligence, brilliant conclusions, and
otherworldly discernment.

Grosnick Marowbe
June 18th, 2015, 09:32 PM
1 Corinthians 14:33Modern English Version (MEV)

33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Why read about your god of confusion. My God is no such thing.

Good post!

Grosnick Marowbe
June 18th, 2015, 09:35 PM
Keypurr has some very strange beliefs. He has an overactive imagination.
Unfortunately, his beliefs don't align themselves with the Bible.

StanJ
June 18th, 2015, 10:38 PM
Try reading the express image thread GM. Everything is there for you inspection and learning.


Yah go ahead GM, I said a lot there that has refuted him as well so you'll see how he is full of nothing but apostasism.

StanJ
June 18th, 2015, 10:43 PM
It is not me that misunderstands John 1.

John does not tell us he is God, you believe in the errors of the RCC. Your shoes no longer fit me jamie, I used to believe that too.

Christ is a god and was with God at the creation. He was in spirit form then. He became flesh and was seen by man. John 1 only verifies my thoughts.


It's not JUST you, but here it is, unless you are reading the JW Bible or some other ancient edition filled with errors?

http://www.studylight.org/desk/interlinear.cgi?search_form_type=interlinear&q1=John+1%3A1&ot=bhs&nt=na&s=0&t3=str_nas&ns=0

Feel free to actual study the above and see.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+1%3A1&version=MOUNCE

Here above is the Reverse Greek Interlinear form of it as well. Knock yourself out...please.

Puppet
June 19th, 2015, 05:48 AM
It say that Christ is a form of God and was with God at the creation. Further study says he is the spiritual son of the most high God. He took the form of man by living in the body God prepared for him, Jesus.

Pure and simple when you understand his words.
.

Whats the real problem you have? No one here disagrees that Jesus became man from a single atom. If spirit is formless, then its timeless. No need to divide formless and timeless into two sections. If you did that, then you brought it back into form, a matter, a single element, something you can hold onto and see. That means you have a real physical human jesus in your living room watching tv with you and you boss him around with your self invented free will and make Him give you the remote control so you can watch more antitrinitarian cult shows that turn you on.
Jesus upset the chief rabbi and ticked him off by saying He is the King of kings and you and the rabbi crucified Him not wanting Him to be the beginning and the end. Beginning and the end means all of it.

Why do you not want Jesus to be our ruler?

CherubRam
June 19th, 2015, 06:00 AM
Where in the Bible does it say, "He took the form of man by living in the body God prepared for him,?"
Were does it say, "he is the spiritual son of the most high God?"
A Body You Prepared For Me

Psalm 40:6 Some Hebrew and Septuagint manuscripts: “but a body you have prepared for me…”

Hebrews 10: 5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;

Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

keypurr
June 19th, 2015, 08:50 AM
No thanks, I don't want to waste my time looking
into your "oddball" false doctrine. Just because
you're what they call, "elderly" doesn't mean
you have all the answers to all that is.

Remember that! Age doesn't necessarily equal,
uncanny intelligence, brilliant conclusions, and
otherworldly discernment.

Then you will remain in your darkness GM?

Elderly are the folks who ride in my Senior Center Van.
I am still a kid. And my IQ is 134, that means that I am always thinking. You should try it. It might help you see what is written.

keypurr
June 19th, 2015, 08:53 AM
Where in the Bible does it say, "He took the form of man by living in the body God prepared for him,?"
Were does it say, "he is the spiritual son of the most high God?"

Phil 2, Heb 10:5, Heb 1, Col. 1:15.

But you will not see it GM.

keypurr
June 19th, 2015, 08:57 AM
Whats the real problem you have? No one here disagrees that Jesus became man from a single atom. If spirit is formless, then its timeless. No need to divide formless and timeless into two sections. If you did that, then you brought it back into form, a matter, a single element, something you can hold onto and see. That means you have a real physical human jesus in your living room watching tv with you and you boss him around with your self invented free will and make Him give you the remote control so you can watch more antitrinitarian cult shows that turn you on.
Jesus upset the chief rabbi and ticked him off by saying He is the King of kings and you and the rabbi crucified Him not wanting Him to be the beginning and the end. Beginning and the end means all of it.

Why do you not want Jesus to be our ruler?

Your post is full of assumptions.

Where did I say I do not want Jesus to be our ruler?

Puppet
June 19th, 2015, 01:40 PM
Your post is full of assumptions.

Where did I say I do not want Jesus to be our ruler?

You put god above your head and Jesus below your feet. I see that in your posts while you're demanding something you want.

Lazy afternoon
June 19th, 2015, 03:48 PM
A Body You Prepared For Me

Psalm 40:6 Some Hebrew and Septuagint manuscripts: “but a body you have prepared for me…”

Hebrews 10: 5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;

The Word prepared Christ for the Father to come and dwell in His son which He did from His baptism onward, but not permanently so nor to the fullness until the resurrection.


Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

Christ was purposed to come forth from before the foundation of the world, not that He existed then, for He had yet to be made.



2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,


Heb 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
Heb 5:6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

LA

keypurr
June 19th, 2015, 10:02 PM
The Word prepared Christ for the Father to come and dwell in His son which He did from His baptism onward, but not permanently so nor to the fullness until the resurrection.



Christ was purposed to come forth from before the foundation of the world, not that He existed then, for He had yet to be made.



2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,


Heb 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
Heb 5:6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

LA

Consider that Christ is the word that dwelled in Jesus, not the Father.

StanJ
June 19th, 2015, 10:09 PM
Consider that Christ is the word that dwelled in Jesus, not the Father.

Only if YOU consider that the WORD IS/WAS God.

keypurr
June 19th, 2015, 10:14 PM
Only if YOU consider that the WORD IS/WAS God.

The word is a form of God, not God.

Phil 2

StanJ
June 19th, 2015, 10:18 PM
The word is a form of God, not God.

Phil 2

Prove it keypurr. Exegete the scripture for us that confirms your fallacious assertion.

NAS – In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
BYZ – εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος
TIS – Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.
TR – εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος
NA – ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος. καὶ ὁ λόγος. ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

Notice there is no alpha / α in the above.

Totton Linnet
June 20th, 2015, 05:59 AM
A person, place, or thing, that has no beginning, does not exist.

All true


except for God and Jesus Christ who is God .... the reason some who call themselves Christians do not perceive Jesus Christ as God is this...it comes only by revelation from the Father, no amount of intellectualism, book study etc will produce this personal revelation to the soul from God.

This where the true church parts ways with the merely human structures and institutions that call themselves Christian churches.

Until the reformation the Arians [who are unitarians] found shelter under the Roman umbrella, as long as they accepted the primacy of Rome, the Nicean creed is craftily formulated to keep them aboard.

"Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God" is a declaration of Christ's deity and it is upon this revelation Christ's has built His church.

Puppet
June 20th, 2015, 06:52 AM
All true


except for God and Jesus Christ who is God .... the reason some who call themselves Christians do not perceive Jesus Christ as God is this...it comes only by revelation from the Father, no amount of intellectualism, book study etc will produce this personal revelation to the soul from God.

This where the true church parts ways with the merely human structures and institutions that call themselves Christian churches.

Until the reformation the Arians [who are unitarians] found shelter under the Roman umbrella, as long as they accepted the primacy of Rome, the Nicean creed is craftily formulated to keep them aboard.

"Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God" is a declaration of Christ's deity and it is upon this revelation Christ's has built His church.

The unbelievers don't see Jesus being past, present and future. They're stuck in the only reality they know called, now, but everything they do, think and act is always past meaning they're always too late to see anything real and can never catch up with the present cause they're totaly depraved like the rest of mankind. They don't give God any credit at all cause they see Him not nor know Him. God arranges circumstances around calvinist to insure their salvation with an gareentee promise He always keeps.

Totton Linnet
June 20th, 2015, 07:43 AM
I accidentally stumbled onto a thread today. Come to find out, it was a debate about the trinity vs anti-trinity.

It got me to thinking.

Does Nontrinitarianism believe that Jesus was created?

Thank you kindly.


Jesus Christ is the created visible Person of God and so is God, always was, is and always shall be. The Alpha and the Omega.

This is what is meant by His being the express image of the Father.

He is what God is, the invisible made visible.

He is born into the world as the Son of God.

keypurr
June 20th, 2015, 10:06 PM
Prove it keypurr. Exegete the scripture for us that confirms your fallacious assertion.

NAS – In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
BYZ – εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος
TIS – Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.
TR – εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος
NA – ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος. καὶ ὁ λόγος. ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

Notice there is no alpha / α in the above.

You sound like a broken record friend.

Grosnick Marowbe
June 21st, 2015, 01:07 AM
The unbelievers

Such as yourself?

Grosnick Marowbe
June 21st, 2015, 01:10 AM
Then you will remain in your darkness GM?

Elderly are the folks who ride in my Senior Center Van.
I am still a kid. And my IQ is 134, that means that I am always thinking. You should try it. It might help you see what is written.

Are you sure your age isn't, 134? I'll bet your 'real' IQ is, the same as your shoe lace size?

Puppet
June 21st, 2015, 05:56 AM
Such as yourself?


:carryon:

jamie
June 21st, 2015, 08:12 AM
The word is a form of God, not God.


In what way does Jesus' visible appearance make him different from his Father? Humans produce humans, animals produce animals, God produces God.

oatmeal
June 21st, 2015, 08:47 AM
I concur. It doesn't answer the question,. Nevertheless, thank you for your very thoughtful post.

Would you care to answer the question now?

Thank you kindly.

Some more thoughts.

What would it take for any women to be a mother of a child?

It would require that an egg in her womb become fertilized in her (by a human sperm) and that it develop to the point of her giving birth to that child.

Thus is was with Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ.

An egg in her womb was fertilized by a male sperm and thus she conceived and nine months later gave birth.

Since God's natural law requires that egg of one species is fertilized by the sperm of the same species, we might ask, how can God, who is spirit, John 4:24, claim to be the Father of Jesus Christ, when God is spirit?

Very simple. God created the perfect human sperm cell in Mary that was His contribution to her pregnancy. That was the divine conception. After that conception, the fertilized egg developed in her womb as it would for any other fertilized egg. Since God contributed that sperm cell, He is rightfully the Father of the lord Jesus Christ and Mary his mother.

The physical material that Jesus' body was made up from was not created in Mary (except for that perfect sperm cell) it was from whatever Mary's body contributed to the growth by what she ate, drank and breathed in.

Thus that sperm cell contributed what any sperm cell contributes, soul life and DNA, but in this case, sinless soul life and perfect DNA, fit for the only begotten son of God. He was as perfect as Adam and Eve were perfect.

An egg in her womb was

keypurr
June 21st, 2015, 09:10 PM
In what way does Jesus' visible appearance make him different from his Father? Humans produce humans, animals produce animals, God produces God.

One is a man the other is a spirit. One was sent to represent the other.

God produced everything, is everything God?

I don't think so.

keypurr
June 21st, 2015, 09:11 PM
Are you sure your age isn't, 134? I'll bet your 'real' IQ is, the same as your shoe lace size?

You sound like a child GM.

Go play in your sandbox.

StanJ
June 22nd, 2015, 12:11 AM
You sound like a child GM.
Go play in your sandbox.

Well we at least agree on one thing.

StanJ
June 22nd, 2015, 12:12 AM
You sound like a broken record friend.

Is that an answer?

Puppet
June 22nd, 2015, 05:43 AM
One is a man the other is a spirit. One was sent to represent the other.

God produced everything, is everything God?

I don't think so.

There is no place where God is not, confirms you wrong

StanJ
June 22nd, 2015, 03:42 PM
15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

Word based mystic
June 22nd, 2015, 03:54 PM
15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

Nasb which has a bit more detailed word interpretation shows vs 14 to say If you love me you (will) keep my commands.

This reaffirms the love focus.
That the proof that you love him is you keep his commands

otherwise how long will you need to earn/work or keep his commands before the next verse is applicable?

So (If) you love me you will keep my commands (and) then.

the keeping of the commands is the proof of the love.

if you keep the commands but have not love you are a clanging cymbal.

what say you.

Interactive relationship is and always has been the desire of God. Slavery and servanthood is inferior and is not the primary focus in relation to obedience.

we are coming out of slaves and servants into sons and daughters
bride and bridegroom
brothers and sisters.

StanJ
June 22nd, 2015, 04:08 PM
what say you.


Indeed, but I posted this to affirm the triune nature of God. It is a given that Christians must obey God, or more effectively, that we will obey God as we grow in our walk with Him.

Grosnick Marowbe
June 22nd, 2015, 04:10 PM
There is no place where God is not confirms you wrong

You need to work on your writing skills. What you just said, makes no sense?

Puppet
June 22nd, 2015, 04:12 PM
You need to work on your writing skills. What you just said, makes no sense?


:carryon:

Grosnick Marowbe
June 22nd, 2015, 04:13 PM
Well we at least agree on one thing.

That's because both of you are unfortunately "like-minded" and lacking in the IQ department.

Grosnick Marowbe
June 22nd, 2015, 04:14 PM
:carryon:

Icons are better for you. Stay away from any form of writing/posting.

Grosnick Marowbe
June 22nd, 2015, 04:15 PM
You sound like a child GM.

Go play in your sandbox.

See what I mean?

Puppet
June 22nd, 2015, 04:32 PM
Icons are better for you. Stay away from any form of writing/posting.


:carryon:

keypurr
June 22nd, 2015, 08:22 PM
See what I mean?

Truth hurts in many ways, right GM?

StanJ
June 22nd, 2015, 09:42 PM
Truth hurts in many ways, right GM?


Not if one doesn't know it or it's source at all.

Word based mystic
June 23rd, 2015, 05:48 AM
Indeed, but I posted this to affirm the triune nature of God. It is a given that Christians must obey God, or more effectively, that we will obey God as we grow in our walk with Him.

sorry about the distraction on that point.

it is a point that Gods truth ignores and i am a bit focused on trying to point out that obedience is birthed out of love and relationship.

She has this servant slave focus that believes obedience births love??

i need to just drop the focus and move on.

StanJ
June 23rd, 2015, 02:30 PM
sorry about the distraction on that point.

it is a point that Gods truth ignores and i am a bit focused on trying to point out that obedience is birthed out of love and relationship.

She has this servant slave focus that believes obedience births love??

i need to just drop the focus and move on.


Not required, I just prefer to be clear when I post, as so many on TOL equivocate endlessly.

Lazy afternoon
June 23rd, 2015, 03:59 PM
Consider that Christ is the word that dwelled in Jesus, not the Father.

Consider that Jesus said His Father dwelt in Him,

and that Jesus Himself is the word made flesh which describes --

Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Where Christ the prepared body by the word, came into the world when He was sent after His baptism by John and the Father first entered Him to begin reconciling the world unto Himself.


Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.


LA

Lazy afternoon
June 23rd, 2015, 04:03 PM
sorry about the distraction on that point.

it is a point that Gods truth ignores and i am a bit focused on trying to point out that obedience is birthed out of love and relationship.

She has this servant slave focus that believes obedience births love??

i need to just drop the focus and move on.

Good point.

Please refer to poster "Gods truth" as GT, for obvious reasons.

Thanks.

God's Truth
June 23rd, 2015, 04:19 PM
sorry about the distraction on that point.

it is a point that Gods truth ignores and i am a bit focused on trying to point out that obedience is birthed out of love and relationship.

She has this servant slave focus that believes obedience births love??

i need to just drop the focus and move on.

How much clearer does it have to be?

Love is obedience.

2 John 1:6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands.


From the way you are behaving here, I would say you are being strongly convicted by the Holy Spirit.

God's Truth
June 23rd, 2015, 04:21 PM
Good point.

Please refer to poster "Gods truth" as GT, for obvious reasons.

Thanks.

So do you think you have God's Truth, Lazy? lol

The hypocrisy and ignorance is rampant.

Squeaky
June 23rd, 2015, 08:10 PM
I accidentally stumbled onto a thread today. Come to find out, it was a debate about the trinity vs anti-trinity.

It got me to thinking.

Does Nontrinitarianism believe that Jesus was created?

Thank you kindly.

I said
I'm a nontrinitarian. And yes Jesus was created.

Col 1:15
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
(NKJ)

My problem with the trinity is that it breaks all the rules for a believer. Not to even think beyond what is written. And not to add one thing to the scriptures or take one thing away from the scriptures.

1 Cor 4:6
6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other.
(NKJ)

Rev 22:18-19
18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
(NKJ)

I also think it is calling Jesus a liar. Jesus said the Father is the only true God.


John 17:1-3
1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
(NKJ)

John 20:17
17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.'"
(NKJ)

meshak
June 23rd, 2015, 08:17 PM
I said
I'm a nontrinitarian. And yes Jesus was created.

Col 1:15
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
(NKJ)

My problem with the trinity is that it breaks all the rules for a believer. Not to even think beyond what is written. And not to add one thing to the scriptures or take one thing away from the scriptures.

1 Cor 4:6
6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other.
(NKJ)

Rev 22:18-19
18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
(NKJ)

I also think it is calling Jesus a liar. Jesus said the Father is the only true God.


John 17:1-3
1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
(NKJ)

John 20:17
17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.'"
(NKJ)



well said, amen.

keypurr
June 28th, 2015, 06:52 PM
well said, amen.


I second that. Squeaky speaks truth.

StanJ
June 28th, 2015, 08:54 PM
I second that. Squeaky speaks truth.


Is that why she was banned?

Grosnick Marowbe
June 29th, 2015, 03:08 AM
I second that. Squeaky speaks truth.

His "kind" of truth, that is. Same as you.

keypurr
June 29th, 2015, 11:37 AM
Is that why she was banned?


Being banned does not mean your wrong Stan. Sometimes its not what you say but the way you say it.

StanJ
June 29th, 2015, 03:17 PM
Being banned does not mean your wrong Stan. Sometimes its not what you say but the way you say it.


Apparently it is not possible for you to actually ANSWER a direct question is it keypurr? Is that why you are apostate, because you never answered the key things God asked you?

keypurr
June 29th, 2015, 08:02 PM
Apparently it is not possible for you to actually ANSWER a direct question is it keypurr? Is that why you are apostate, because you never answered the key things God asked you?


I concern myself with answering to my God, not man. I try to please him, not you.

You just want to be with the crowd Stan.

oatmeal
June 29th, 2015, 08:46 PM
I concur. It doesn't answer the question,. Nevertheless, thank you for your very thoughtful post.

Would you care to answer the question now?

Thank you kindly.

Jesus Christ's body was made of the same stuff that any human's body is made of. "Dust and ashes" Those "dust and ashes" were created back in Genesis 1:1

Jesus' body was made of stuff that was created, thus the body of Jesus Christ is the result of creation by God.

Soul was created in Genesis 1. This soul was tainted by Adam and Eve's sin and continued to be tainted by all who sin, thus the shorter and shorter lives we live compared to those in Genesis who lived hundreds of years (this degeneration applies to the durability of the human body as well)

Since this tainted soul was not pure, innocent as it was before A and E's disobedience, God created pure, sinless soul in the sperm that impregnated Mary's egg in her womb.

The spirit from God that descended in the form of a dove at Jesus' baptism by John was spirit that given to him by God, who is spirit, John 4:24. Since God, who is the Holy Spirit, gives to us of His spirit, I John 4:13, did God have to create holy spirit for Jesus? God gives to us of His spirit, God's word does not indicate that God would have to create anything special for His son in this regard. God, being the Father of Jesus Christ, would give the best to His son, certainly, since God gives of His spirit to us, and you cannot get better than God's spirit, there is every reason to conclude that God gave of His spirit to Jesus as well.

From the above info, it is clear that the body and soul of Jesus Christ was made of created stuff. The spirit that descended down upon Jesus Christ is the same spirit that God gives to us. I John 4:13, since God is not created, His spirit is not created, but is simply what He is.

keypurr
June 29th, 2015, 09:19 PM
Stan notice:

Rev 3:12 Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name. (NIV)

Listen to your Lord.

Grosnick Marowbe
June 30th, 2015, 12:28 AM
I concern myself with answering to my God, not man. I try to please him, not you.

You just want to be with the crowd Stan.

You are quite the "Rascal" KP.

keypurr
June 30th, 2015, 09:41 AM
You are quite the "Rascal" KP.


Thats the nicest thing you have said about me in a long time GM. Thanks.

StanJ
June 30th, 2015, 09:52 AM
I concern myself with answering to my God, not man. I try to please him, not you.


Good...then go answer him and stop bugging us who know the real God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

StanJ
June 30th, 2015, 09:54 AM
Stan notice:

Rev 3:12 Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name. (NIV)

Listen to your Lord.


So you think some people will actually be 'pillars' in some non-existent temple in the future. I suggest you read Revelation more to see what it really conveys. I don't know HOW you ever get anything right in your confused mind?

God's Truth
June 30th, 2015, 11:14 AM
Good...then go answer him and stop bugging us who know the real God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Abraham was not made to obey God. Abraham obeyed God and that is why the promises were fulfilled through him.

Genesis 26:4-5I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because Abraham obeyed me and kept my requirements, my commands, my decrees and my laws."

achduke
June 30th, 2015, 02:14 PM
So you think some people will actually be 'pillars' in some non-existent temple in the future. I suggest you read Revelation more to see what it really conveys. I don't know HOW you ever get anything right in your confused mind?

Why do you think there is no temple? The temple is a living temple.

John 2:21 But the temple he had spoken of was his body.

1 Peter 2:4 As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him—

1 Peter 2:5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For in Scripture it says:

Zechariah 3:8 “ ‘Listen, High Priest Joshua, you and your associates seated before you, who are men symbolic of things to come: I am going to bring my servant, the Branch. 9See, the stone I have set in front of Joshua! There are seven eyes on that one stone, and I will engrave an inscription on it,’ says the Lord Almighty, ‘and I will remove the sin of this land in a single day.

1 Corintians 6:19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own

Revelation 21:22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

StanJ
June 30th, 2015, 04:35 PM
Why do you think there is no temple? The temple is a living temple.

John 2:21 But the temple he had spoken of was his body.

1 Peter 2:4 As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him—

1 Peter 2:5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For in Scripture it says:

Zechariah 3:8 “ ‘Listen, High Priest Joshua, you and your associates seated before you, who are men symbolic of things to come: I am going to bring my servant, the Branch. 9See, the stone I have set in front of Joshua! There are seven eyes on that one stone, and I will engrave an inscription on it,’ says the Lord Almighty, ‘and I will remove the sin of this land in a single day.

1 Corintians 6:19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own

Revelation 21:22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.


If you didn't understand the post I replied to or mine then I suggest you go read it AGAIN.
How can a person be a pillar in a temple that is an actual human being?

keypurr
June 30th, 2015, 04:44 PM
So you think some people will actually be 'pillars' in some non-existent temple in the future. I suggest you read Revelation more to see what it really conveys. I don't know HOW you ever get anything right in your confused mind?

Are you saying the words of Jesus Christ mean nothing to you?

You just exposed yourself Stan.

StanJ
June 30th, 2015, 04:55 PM
Are you saying the words of Jesus Christ mean nothing to you?

I think you should actually ANSWER questions posed to you and not deflect by asking more questions.

achduke
June 30th, 2015, 05:18 PM
If you didn't understand the post I replied to or mine then I suggest you go read it AGAIN.
How can a person be a pillar in a temple that is an actual human being?

It is symbolism. Is Christ a rock or a stone? Most temples are made from rock or stone and pillars hold up the temple. Are they physically a pillar? No, They support the temple!

Bright Raven
June 30th, 2015, 05:20 PM
It is symbolism. Is Christ a rock or a stone? Most temples are made from rock or stone and pillars hold up the temple. Are they physically a pillar? No, They support the temple!

Who is the chief cornerstone of the Church.

achduke
June 30th, 2015, 05:22 PM
Christ is the chief cornerstone. That is symbolism also. Christ is the main piece of the church. He is the head of the church.

Bright Raven
June 30th, 2015, 05:28 PM
Christ is the chief cornerstone. That is symbolism also. Christ is the main piece of the church. He is the head of the church.

So the rock spoken of in Matthew 16:18 is Christ?

keypurr
June 30th, 2015, 05:29 PM
I think you should actually ANSWER questions posed to you and not deflect by asking more questions.

You do not seem to understand the answers you have been given.
You need to brush up on your reading problems.

achduke
June 30th, 2015, 06:12 PM
So the rock spoken of in Matthew 16:18 is Christ?

Yes!

Mat 16:18 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

Bright Raven
June 30th, 2015, 06:23 PM
Yes!

Mat 16:18 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

:thumb:

StanJ
June 30th, 2015, 09:06 PM
You do not seem to understand the answers you have been given.
You need to brush up on your reading problems.

As you haven't given ANY, there's nothing to understand, but clearly I DO understand the issue of this and ALL the threads you try and push your Arianism in. Maybe if you actually answer something you'll learn, but I highly doubt your apostate ego wants to. He has disguised himself as your god.

StanJ
June 30th, 2015, 09:11 PM
It is symbolism. Is Christ a rock or a stone? Most temples are made from rock or stone and pillars hold up the temple. Are they physically a pillar? No, They support the temple!

That's about as clear as mud, but IYO, are we or are we not, as individuals, the Temples of God, because I fail to see why you bring up pillars as a way of showing a figurative temple in response to my previous post?

FYI, Christ is the ROCK of our salvation, but Peter's confession of WHO Christ was, IS the foundation of the Church known as the Body of Christ.
There is a play on words there between Pater and Petra in the Greek.

achduke
July 1st, 2015, 03:03 AM
That's about as clear as mud, but IYO, are we or are we not, as individuals, the Temples of God, because I fail to see why you bring up pillars as a way of showing a figurative temple in response to my previous post?

FYI, Christ is the ROCK of our salvation, but Peter's confession of WHO Christ was, IS the foundation of the Church known as the Body of Christ.
There is a play on words there between Pater and Petra in the Greek.

Not everyone is a rock and not everyone is a pillar and not everyone is the temple of God. Those that have the Holy Spirit are the temple of God.

God has shown his plan little be little since the beginning. The body is a temple. The spirit dwells inside of the temple. God does not dwell inside temples made by hand. God created his temple. God will not dwell in defiled temples. Christ is the Son of God, the cornerstone. Those that have the Spirit of God are the sons of God. If you are a son of God then you have God as your Father and he dwells with you. If you do not have the Holy Spirit Then someone else is your father.

Eze 36:26 "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

Mat 12:43 "When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none.

Mat 12:44 "Then he says, 'I will return to my house from which I came.' And when he comes, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order.

Mat 12:45 "Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first. So shall it also be with this wicked generation."

oatmeal
July 1st, 2015, 04:34 AM
Jesus Christ's body was made of the same stuff that any human's body is made of. "Dust and ashes" Those "dust and ashes" were created back in Genesis 1:1

Jesus' body was made of stuff that was created, thus the body of Jesus Christ is the result of creation by God.

Soul was created in Genesis 1. This soul was tainted by Adam and Eve's sin and continued to be tainted by all who sin, thus the shorter and shorter lives we live compared to those in Genesis who lived hundreds of years (this degeneration applies to the durability of the human body as well)

Since this tainted soul was not pure, innocent as it was before A and E's disobedience, God created pure, sinless soul in the sperm that impregnated Mary's egg in her womb.

The spirit from God that descended in the form of a dove at Jesus' baptism by John was spirit that given to him by God, who is spirit, John 4:24. Since God, who is the Holy Spirit, gives to us of His spirit, I John 4:13, did God have to create holy spirit for Jesus? God gives to us of His spirit, God's word does not indicate that God would have to create anything special for His son in this regard. God, being the Father of Jesus Christ, would give the best to His son, certainly, since God gives of His spirit to us, and you cannot get better than God's spirit, there is every reason to conclude that God gave of His spirit to Jesus as well.

From the above info, it is clear that the body and soul of Jesus Christ was made of created stuff. The spirit that descended down upon Jesus Christ is the same spirit that God gives to us. I John 4:13, since God is not created, His spirit is not created, but is simply what He is.

Jesus Christ, the son of God, is the result of the creative activity of God.

oatmeal
July 1st, 2015, 04:38 AM
Jesus Christ, the son of God, is the result of the creative activity of God.

Jesus Christ is the son of God, not the unscriptural description, "God the Son".

There is one God composed of one being only, God, who is the God and Father of the lord Jesus Christ.

meshak
July 1st, 2015, 08:16 AM
Jesus Christ is the son of God, not the unscriptural description, "God the Son".

There is one God composed of one being only, God, who is the God and Father of the lord Jesus Christ.

:)

StanJ
July 1st, 2015, 11:41 AM
Not everyone is a rock and not everyone is a pillar and not everyone is the temple of God. Those that have the Holy Spirit are the temple of God.
God has shown his plan little be little since the beginning. The body is a temple. The spirit dwells inside of the temple. God does not dwell inside temples made by hand. God created his temple. God will not dwell in defiled temples. Christ is the Son of God, the cornerstone. Those that have the Spirit of God are the sons of God. If you are a son of God then you have God as your Father and he dwells with you. If you do not have the Holy Spirit Then someone else is your father.



well this has gone from SPECIFIC to a very diluted position so I'm not really sure what point you are or were trying tom make.

The point I WAS making was that there is NO Temple as in the OC. We are the Temple of the Holy Spirit and in the NEW earth, God will reside with us so there will be NO temple there either. Rev 21

achduke
July 1st, 2015, 12:35 PM
well this has gone from SPECIFIC to a very diluted position so I'm not really sure what point you are or were trying tom make.

The point I WAS making was that there is NO Temple as in the OC. We are the Temple of the Holy Spirit and in the NEW earth, God will reside with us so there will be NO temple there either. Rev 21

We are the temple as a whole. There is no building but there is a temple.

StanJ
July 1st, 2015, 01:52 PM
We are the temple as a whole. There is no building but there is a temple.


OK, so why post all the scriptures in response to what I said?

achduke
July 1st, 2015, 01:55 PM
OK, so why post all the scriptures in response to what I said?

Because you said there is no temple and seem to be having problems with symbology and future events.

StanJ
July 1st, 2015, 02:02 PM
Because you said there is no temple and seem to be having problems with symbology and future events.

In the context of what I addressed, there is NO temple. Rev 21:22 (NIV)
So obviously previous to that in Revelation, it was metaphoric hyperbole.

Grosnick Marowbe
July 1st, 2015, 02:05 PM
Jesus Christ is the son of God, not the unscriptural description, "God the Son".

There is one God composed of one being only, God, who is the God and Father of the lord Jesus Christ.

Sorry but, there is in fact: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

Bright Raven
July 1st, 2015, 02:06 PM
Jesus Christ is the son of God, not the unscriptural description, "God the Son".

There is one God composed of one being only, God, who is the God and Father of the lord Jesus Christ.

John 10:25-36 King James Version (KJV)

25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

30 I and my Father are one.

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Grosnick Marowbe
July 1st, 2015, 02:10 PM
Genesis 1:26 states: "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

oatmeal
July 1st, 2015, 03:33 PM
Sorry but, there is in fact: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

Well, that is easier said than scripturally substantiated.

Show me from scripture where Jesus, the son of God, is referred to as "God the Son"

Since you cannot, your credibility and your theology is clearly compromised

For that matter, where is "God the Holy Spirit" found?

God knows what He calls himself, it is your job to find that out

Bright Raven
July 1st, 2015, 03:37 PM
Well, that is easier said than scripturally substantiated.

Show me from scripture where Jesus, the son of God, is referred to as "God the Son"

Since you cannot, your credibility and your theology is clearly compromised

For that matter, where is "God the Holy Spirit" found?

God knows what He calls himself, it is your job to find that out

Acts 5:3-4

Bright Raven
July 1st, 2015, 03:55 PM
Titus 2:13

Grosnick Marowbe
July 1st, 2015, 04:25 PM
Well, that is easier said than scripturally substantiated.

Show me from scripture where Jesus, the son of God, is referred to as "God the Son"

Since you cannot, your credibility and your theology is clearly compromised

For that matter, where is "God the Holy Spirit" found?

God knows what He calls himself, it is your job to find that out

Because you've chosen that icon: you're just a shell of a man.

oatmeal
July 1st, 2015, 07:14 PM
Acts 5:3-4

Let me repeat my question.

where is "God the Holy Spirit" found in scripture.

Acts 5:3-4 does not contain the phrase "God the Holy Spirit".

Grosnick seems to think that "God the Holy Spirit" is a name that God refers to himself as in scripture.

However, God does refer to himself as "the Holy Spirit"

God most certainly is holy, and God is most certainly spirit, John 4:24, therefore it takes no logical leap to understand why God would refer to himself as "the Holy Spirit".

But God does not use the phrase "God the Holy Spirit" in scripture as name for himself.

Since God, who knows who He is, does not, there is no reason for me to refer to him as that.

IF Grosnick had referred to God by referring to "the Holy Spirit" or shepherd or rock or Elohim, El, El Shaddai, Jehovah, etc., I would agree with Grosnick, but he did not.

oatmeal
July 1st, 2015, 07:18 PM
Titus 2:13

Nice try, but let me repeat my question.

Where does scripture refer to Jesus Christ as "God the Son".

Scripture never refers to Jesus Christ as "God the Son" so why would you?

oatmeal
July 1st, 2015, 07:19 PM
Because you've chosen that icon: you're just a shell of a man.

I note that you admit that you cannot answer my question, so you sidestep the issue.

StanJ
July 1st, 2015, 08:03 PM
Because you said there is no temple and seem to be having problems with symbology and future events.

and if you would have been paying attention you would have understood the context I posted in to see I meant an actual building. Give me a break please.

Bright Raven
July 1st, 2015, 08:04 PM
Nice try, but let me repeat my question.

Where does scripture refer to Jesus Christ as "God the Son".

Scripture never refers to Jesus Christ as "God the Son" so why would you?

Doesn't have to. It refers to him as God.