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RevTestament
June 12th, 2015, 09:42 AM
In another thread I made some comments to which another poster expressed interest in responding to - but I have decided to separate out the comments into different threads - so here goes the first:

Well let's just say I believe some can be saved from hell
Revelation 20:13
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

I also believe heaven has an order - there is more than just a saved state.
Matthew 20:23
23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

John 14:2
2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Another poster commented:
That being said, I'm sure a number of us would like to continue this conversation, in a way that's not a distraction to the goal to pray for this forum.

So I pose a couple of questions and scriptures for the purpose of this discussion:

1. Do the wicked all receive the same punishment?

for the purpose of this discussion some might find the following relevant:
Matthew 11:24
24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

2. Is it possible to be saved from hell?
Do the wicked go to hell before or after judgment?

3. Do the saved all receive the same reward?
an additional scripture:
1 Corinthians 15:23
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

john w
June 12th, 2015, 10:18 AM
Matthew 23 KJV

13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. 14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

Survey Luke 20:47 KJV, Mark 12:38-40 KJV

SaulToPaul
June 12th, 2015, 11:35 AM
Matthew 23 KJV

13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. 14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

Survey Luke 20:47 KJV, Mark 12:38-40 KJV

Yes, not everyone will be hanging out in the smoking section with GT.

aikido7
June 12th, 2015, 12:03 PM
Matthew 5:45:

...that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

OCTOBER23
June 12th, 2015, 02:49 PM
1. Do the wicked all receive the same punishment?

1. YEP

2. Is it possible to be saved from hell?

2. YEP

3. Do the saved all receive the same reward?

3. YEP , ETERNAL LIFE BUT LATER MORE REWARDS

4. Do the wicked go to hell before or after judgment?

4. AFTER - TO BURN ALL THE GARBAGE LEFT OVER FROM THE WARS

whitestone
June 13th, 2015, 05:24 AM
Is the cross judgment? Did the father in his judgment see the world in a state of lost,dead,without hope and send his son to change that? when will the world be judged,or when was it judged?,,,Is the cross the worlds judgment?

OCTOBER23
June 13th, 2015, 06:01 AM
THE CHRISTMAS EVERGREEN IS THE TREE OF DEFIANCE OF GOD.

AMERICA HAS BEEN JUDGED AND 911 WAS PART OF THAT PUNISHMENT.

It is time to Repent

https://youtu.be/P_DqdG_OfCM

Caino
June 13th, 2015, 07:30 AM
In another thread I made some comments to which another poster expressed interest in responding to - but I have decided to separate out the comments into different threads - so here goes the first:

Well let's just say I believe some can be saved from hell
Revelation 20:13
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

I also believe heaven has an order - there is more than just a saved state.
Matthew 20:23
23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

John 14:2
2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Another poster commented:

So I pose a couple of questions and scriptures for the purpose of this discussion:

1. Do the wicked all receive the same punishment?

for the purpose of this discussion some might find the following relevant:
Matthew 11:24
24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

2. Is it possible to be saved from hell?
Do the wicked go to hell before or after judgment?

3. Do the saved all receive the same reward?
an additional scripture:
1 Corinthians 15:23
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

Burning hell is the kind of thing men would conceive of, it's the kind of thing men do to one another. Considering that these same animalistic men think of God as one like themselves, they have concocted these despicable theories and ascribed them to God. It is no different than the ISIS kind of God.

There is life of endless spiritual growth or eternal death.

Nick M
June 13th, 2015, 08:08 AM
In another thread I made some comments to which another poster expressed interest in responding to - but I have decided to separate out the comments into different threads - so here goes the first:

Well let's just say I believe some can be saved from hell
Revelation 20:13
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.



Keep reading. Key parts are missing from the partial post.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

oatmeal
June 13th, 2015, 08:46 AM
In another thread I made some comments to which another poster expressed interest in responding to - but I have decided to separate out the comments into different threads - so here goes the first:

Well let's just say I believe some can be saved from hell
Revelation 20:13
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

I also believe heaven has an order - there is more than just a saved state.
Matthew 20:23
23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

John 14:2
2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Another poster commented:

So I pose a couple of questions and scriptures for the purpose of this discussion:

1. Do the wicked all receive the same punishment?

for the purpose of this discussion some might find the following relevant:
Matthew 11:24
24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

2. Is it possible to be saved from hell?
Do the wicked go to hell before or after judgment?

3. Do the saved all receive the same reward?
an additional scripture:
1 Corinthians 15:23
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

Very challenging questions!

Revelation 20:13 (NKJV)
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.

Understanding the word "hades" and the corresponding Hebrew word "sheol" is vital to our understanding of what death is all about.

Looking up some of the verses that these two words were used in tell us that hades and sheol are simply referring to being dead in a grave. This state of being dead in a grave has nothing to do with how a person lived their lives, whether a believer devoted to doing the will of God or a God rejector.

Psalm 89:48

What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave [sheol]? Selah.

Psalm 16:10

For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [sheol]; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Psalm 49:15

But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave [sheol]: for he shall receive me. Selah.

Job 21:13

They spend their days in wealth, and in a moment go down to the grave [sheol].

But not only do people go to sheol, the grave, but so do animals.

Psalm 49:12,14

Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish.

14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them....

Jesus Christ was similarly in the grave, sheol or hades.

Matthew 12:40

Acts 2:30-32

Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell [hades], neither his flesh did see corruption.

32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

The words hades and sheol have been translated both grave and hell, thus confusing the average Bible reader.

Thus hades and sheol are simply references to the state of being dead in a grave. ("Are the Dead Alive Now?" VP Wierwille)

Christians who have died before the return of Christ for the church, I Thessalonians 4:13-18 will rise from the dead, even as Jesus Christ rose from the dead.

The first and second resurrections, that is the resurrection of the just and the unjust that shall occur as described in the book of Revelation is when the rest of the dead shall be raised either to live forever in the presence of God, the first resurrection, the resurrection of the just. The unbelievers will be raised from the dead to receive the sentence of the second death. Their error will be made plain to them before they die the second death for they will come "face to face" with God and His son and will full realize that that their chosen error was inexcusable, Romans 1:19-20, and they shall reap the crop of the seeds they sowed. They did not want God or any of His blessings, so they do not get them, God is the author of life, they did not want God, they get death, the second death. Romans 6:23

That is enough for now.

Word based mystic
June 13th, 2015, 08:58 AM
THE CHRISTMAS EVERGREEN IS THE TREE OF DEFIANCE OF GOD.

AMERICA HAS BEEN JUDGED AND 911 WAS PART OF THAT PUNISHMENT.

It is time to Repent

https://youtu.be/P_DqdG_OfCM

and you are the prophet that determines that?

God told you that?

RevTestament
August 25th, 2015, 08:53 AM
Matthew 23 KJV

13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. 14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

Survey Luke 20:47 KJV, Mark 12:38-40 KJV


Yes, not everyone will be hanging out in the smoking section with GT.
OK, we have some MADs who seem to agree that not all punishment is the same :D How about the converse? What do MADs say about scriptures like this:
Matthew 5:17-19 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not [h]the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches [i]others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever [j]keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

RevTestament
August 25th, 2015, 09:01 AM
Very challenging questions!

Revelation 20:13 (NKJV)
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.

Understanding the word "hades" and the corresponding Hebrew word "sheol" is vital to our understanding of what death is all about.

Looking up some of the verses that these two words were used in tell us that hades and sheol are simply referring to being dead in a grave. This state of being dead in a grave has nothing to do with how a person lived their lives, whether a believer devoted to doing the will of God or a God rejector.

Psalm 89:48

What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave [sheol]? Selah.

Psalm 16:10

For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [sheol]; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Psalm 49:15

But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave [sheol]: for he shall receive me. Selah.

Job 21:13

They spend their days in wealth, and in a moment go down to the grave [sheol].

But not only do people go to sheol, the grave, but so do animals.

Psalm 49:12,14

Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish.

14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them....

Jesus Christ was similarly in the grave, sheol or hades.

Matthew 12:40

Acts 2:30-32

Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell [hades], neither his flesh did see corruption.

32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

The words hades and sheol have been translated both grave and hell, thus confusing the average Bible reader.

Thus hades and sheol are simply references to the state of being dead in a grave. ("Are the Dead Alive Now?" VP Wierwille)

Christians who have died before the return of Christ for the church, I Thessalonians 4:13-18 will rise from the dead, even as Jesus Christ rose from the dead.

The first and second resurrections, that is the resurrection of the just and the unjust that shall occur as described in the book of Revelation is when the rest of the dead shall be raised either to live forever in the presence of God, the first resurrection, the resurrection of the just. The unbelievers will be raised from the dead to receive the sentence of the second death. Their error will be made plain to them before they die the second death for they will come "face to face" with God and His son and will full realize that that their chosen error was inexcusable, Romans 1:19-20, and they shall reap the crop of the seeds they sowed. They did not want God or any of His blessings, so they do not get them, God is the author of life, they did not want God, they get death, the second death. Romans 6:23

That is enough for now.
Good scriptures, but none really seem to address the OP. For instance in the resurrection of the unjust, do they all receive the same punishment? What is the point of the judgment day if all the unjust receive the same punishment? I guess my question is: is the punishment of outer hell or outer darkness eternal in time or eternal is scope but with the possibility of parole?

serpentdove
August 25th, 2015, 10:23 AM
...
Matthew 5:17-19 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not [h]the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches [i]others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever [j]keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
"Mt 5:19 shall be called least … shall be called great. Any violation of God’s law makes one least in the kingdom, which is equal to being outside the kingdom and under condemnation (cf. Gal. 3:10–12). The one who keeps God’s law is great, which is equal to being in the kingdom and in God’s salvation. In chap. 13, the parables of the tares (13:24–30) and the dragnet (13:47–50) indicate that in the visible, external kingdom of those who identify with God there will be true and false people (cf. 7:21–27). The “least” refers to those who will be judged and cast out (13:30, 41, 42, 49, 50) while the “great” shall be included and rewarded (v. 43)." MacArthur, J., Jr. (Ed.). (1997). The MacArthur Study Bible (electronic ed., p. 1400). Nashville, TN: Word Pub.

See:

Mormonism (http://vananne.com/culttoasters/#Mormons)

serpentdove
August 25th, 2015, 10:24 AM
1. Do the wicked all receive the same punishment?

1. YEP...Nope (Lk 12:47).

serpentdove
August 25th, 2015, 10:36 AM
[Judgment coming to America] "...[A]nd you are the prophet that determines that?

“If God doesn’t punish America, He’ll have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah.” ~ Billy Graham

serpentdove
August 25th, 2015, 10:48 AM
Burning hell is the kind of thing men would conceive of, it's the kind of thing men do to one another...

Christians don't seek retribution (Mt 5:43-48, Jud 1:9). Heaven is our home (Mt 19:29). :king: We are :mario: sojourners and exiles (1 Pe 2:11, ESV). :alien:

As a reminder Cano is number 29 on Satan, Inc. (TOL Heretics list) (http://vananne.com/serpentdove/TOL%20Heretics%20List.htm) in "The 'Jesus is not God' people (Non-trinitarians) category. :burnlib:

serpentdove
August 25th, 2015, 10:55 AM
...[I]s the punishment of outer hell or outer darkness eternal in time or eternal is scope but with the possibility of parole?

Repentance must occur on this side of the grave http://vananne.com/serpentdove/poof_by_Davidgtza2.gif (Ac 9:35, Jas 4:14). :listen: I recommend doing this prior to your heart being harden (Ex 9:12). There comes a time when you no longer can respond (Ge 6:3, Lk 12:20, 2 Thess 2:11-12). :burnlib:

serpentdove
August 25th, 2015, 10:58 AM
Keep on keepin' on (2 Chr. 15:7).

http://www.directsmiley.com/cat/12/12_7_29.gif

serpentdove
August 25th, 2015, 11:02 AM
...And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. ...

Is this an editable document or is it 'read only'? :think:

See:

Does God Elect Everyone? (http://www.vananne.com/armorofthelord/Does%20God%20Elect%20Everyone.pdf)

Man.0
August 25th, 2015, 12:22 PM
Burning hell is the kind of thing men would conceive of, it's the kind of thing men do to one another. Considering that these same animalistic men think of God as one like themselves, they have concocted these despicable theories and ascribed them to God. It is no different than the ISIS kind of God.


I agree with you. The idea of a literal, unending hell, of fire and brimstone, is purely a carnal conception - conjured up by the wicked mind of man. If God thought it detestable and wicked when the Israelites offered sacrifices to Baal by burning their own children in fire (Jeremiah 7:31; Jeremiah 19:5), how much more destestable to Him is the idea of Him burning His own creation, perpetually, without end, in the flames of fire?

Many Christians think Him to be evil, like the children-burning Israelites (much more so infact); for they believe that He will burn His own creation (who His own hands made) forever and forevermore in an eternal fire. Thus they blaspheme, by making God out to be a wicked, cruel, depraved, sinister monster. Furthermore, by ascribing the vile notion of hell, to God, declaring Him as the author of such a nefarious notion - they also make the pagan heathens to think He is wicked; thus causing these pagans to blaspheme the holy name of God (Isaiah 52:5 ; Romans 2:24).

RevTestament
August 25th, 2015, 02:06 PM
The “least” refers to those who will be judged and cast out (13:30, 41, 42, 49, 50) while the “great” shall be included and rewarded (v. 43)." MacArthur, J., Jr. (Ed.). (1997). The MacArthur Study Bible (electronic ed., p. 1400). Nashville, TN: Word Pub.

I'm not sure what those highlighted numbers refer to. Obviously you do not equate the kingdom of heaven as being saved then.
How do you get into the kingdom of heaven and then cast out? Does everyone go to the kingdom of heaven before judgment day? If so, how come Revelation says death and hell shall give up their dead to be judged?
P.S. I prefer to use scripture and common sense over the opinions of men in commentaries and study Bibles.

serpentdove
August 26th, 2015, 07:51 AM
[(13:30, 41, 42, 49, 50)] "I'm not sure what those highlighted numbers refer to." Matthew 13:30, 41, 42, 49, 50


"How do you get into the kingdom of heaven and then cast out?" Is the word working in you? 1 Thess. 2:13 Do you have fruits? Jas 2:18 Some go along for a while believing that they are Christians--they had shed a few crocodile tears, walked down an isle, signed a card, got baptized. :blabla: When tested many fall away. Have you been tested? How did you come out on the other side? As fool's gold :freak: or as gold? :king: 1 Pe 1:7 If one has a problem with assurance :listen: it's probably because he is not saved.

Entrance into his kingdom comes by repentance (Mt 3:2) and the new birth (Jn 3:1-8). Pray that the Lord does not pass you by (1 Thess. 2:12).


"Does everyone go to the kingdom of heaven before judgment day?" Some will not die (1 Cor. 15:51; 1 Thess. 4:15, 17). :rapture: If you do not receive the kingdom like a child you will not enter it (Mt 13:44).


"If so, how come Revelation says death and hell shall give up their dead to be judged?"

These are the unrighteous dead. Choose him today. You may not get a tomorrow. 2 Co 6:2

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works [Rev. 20:12–13].

"And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne; and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead that were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them; and they were judged every one according to their works.

Yes, my friend, you will be able to get a fair trial there. Your life is on tape, and Christ happens to have the tape. When He plays it back, you will be able to listen to it, and it is not going to sound good to you, by any means. Are you willing to stand before God and have Him play the tape of your life? I think He will have it on a television screen so that you can watch it, too. Do you think your life can stand the test? I do not know about you, but I could not make it. Thank God for His grace—“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God” (Eph. 2:8).

The dead are classified as the small and the great. They are all lost, for evidently some have their names written in the Book of Life. They had never turned to God for salvation. The Lord Jesus said that in His generation “… ye will not come to me, that ye might have life” (John 5:40). These folk standing before His throne had not come.

These are books which record the works of all individuals. God keeps the tapes, and He will play them at the right time. There will be a lot of politicians who will have their tapes played in that day, and there will be a lot of public figures—even preachers—who will have their tapes played in that day, and they are not going to be happy about it. If you are saved, you are going to be happy about it. If you are saved, you are not going to stand before this judgment. Your works are to be judged as a child of God at the judgment seat of Christ, which will be for the purpose of rewards (see 2 Cor. 5:10). The Great White Throne judgment is the judgment of the lost. Multitudes want to be judged according to their works. This is their opportunity. The judgment is just, but no one is saved by works.

“And the sea gave up the dead that were in it.” Multitudes who have gone to a watery grave in which the chemicals of their bodies have been dissolved in the waters of the sea will be raised. God will have no problem with this. After all, they are only atoms. He just has to put them together again. He did it once; He can do it again. The graves on earth will give up their bodies; and hades, the place where the spirits of the lost go, will disgorge for this judgment." McGee, J. V. (1991). Thru the Bible commentary: The Prophecy (Revelation 14-22) (electronic ed., Vol. 60, pp. 157–158). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

See:

Mormonism (http://vananne.com/culttoasters/#Mormons)