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chrysostom
June 10th, 2015, 05:53 AM
the abomination of desolation

found three times in daniel but the first two are quite telling
you may not find this in your bible

so what is in the holy place now?
the dome of the rock
and
it causes desolation
it is preventing the third temple
put there by the second beast of the apocalypse
the fourth beast of daniel
different from all the rest

here are the clues
what happened to the temple place?

Matthew 24:15New International Version (NIV)

15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—


Daniel 9:27New International Version (NIV)

27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’[a] In the middle of the ‘seven’[b] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple[c] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.[d]”[e]

Antiochus IV Epiphanes in 167 BC

the second beast of daniel

here there is a temple to desecrate and this temple was destroyed later by the third beast of daniel, the roman empire

Daniel 11:31New International Version (NIV)

31 “His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.

the Dome of the Rock by the Umayyad Caliph Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan in 691 AD

the fourth beast of daniel

there is no temple here

only the temple fortress or the holy place and this is the abomination referred to by Jesus

once this premise is established it is easy to show that the last two beasts of daniel are the two beasts of the apocalypse

back to the apocalypse (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?102616-the-apocalypse&highlight=)

chrysostom
June 10th, 2015, 05:55 AM
why you may not find this in your bible

to be continued (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4346401&posted=1#post4346401)

daqq
June 10th, 2015, 06:46 AM
the abomination of desolation

found three times in daniel but the first two are quite telling
you may not find this in your bible

so what is in the holy place now?
the dome of the rock
and
it causes desolation
it is preventing the third temple
put there by the second beast of the apocalypse
the fourth beast of daniel
different from all the rest

here are the clues
what happened to the temple place?

Matthew 24:15New International Version (NIV)

15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—


Daniel 9:27New International Version (NIV)

27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’[a] In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple[c] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.[d]”[e]

Antiochus IV Epiphanes in 167 BC

the second beast of daniel

here there is a temple to desecrate and this temple was destroyed later by the third beast of daniel, the roman empire

Daniel 11:31New International Version (NIV)

31 “His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.

the Dome of the Rock by the Umayyad Caliph Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan in 691 AD

the fourth beast of daniel

there is no temple here

only the temple fortress or the holy place and this is the abomination referred to by Jesus

once this premise is established it is easy to show that the last two beasts of daniel are the two beasts of the apocalypse


why you may not find this in your bible

to be continued

I found this in my Bible and it is even more telling: the word for abomination, (GSN#946 bdelugma) is found only three times in all of the four Gospel accounts. The first two occurrences are both from the same statement recorded twice in Matthew and Mark from the Olivet Discourse. This means that according to the Gospel writers the Master in fact only spoke of abomination two times in total because the two from the Olivet Discourse are the same statement recorded twice by two different authors. The third mention of bdelguma occurs in the Gospel of Luke which means that is the only other time the Master used that word. This fact should truly give pause to anyone who claims to be a disciple of Yeshua because it strongly implies that this is the one and only teaching from the Master on this particular topic of discussion:

Matthew 24:15 ASV
15. When therefore ye see the abomination [GSN#946 bdelugma] of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand),

Mark 13:14 ASV
14. But when ye see the abomination [GSN#946 bdelugma] of desolation standing where he ought not (let him that readeth understand), then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains:

The above is the first usage of bdelugma which has been recorded by two different authors. The following is the only other usage of the same word until the Book of the Revelation of Yeshua and, therefore, this word and doctrine of the Master in its context should be the only acceptable interpretation of the first usage for anyone who claims to be a disciple of Yeshua and his teachings:

Luke 16:14-15 ASV
14. And the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, heard all these things; and they scoffed at him.
15. And he said unto them, Ye are they that justify yourselves in the sight of men; [B]but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is exalted among men is an abomination [GSN#946 bdelugma] in the sight of God.

I have recently been going over much that is relative to these things in another thread with another poster here who seems to think like he is immune from most all of these critical statements of the Master: the "abomination of desolation" takes place in the heart of the man according to the Testimony and doctrine of Yeshua because every man is a personal and individual bodily temple of God, (1 Corinthians 6:19-20). :)

chrysostom
June 10th, 2015, 08:03 AM
the re-dedication of the Temple to Zeus by Antiochus IV Epiphanes in 167 BC,

the worship of the Roman Standards on the Temple Mount under Titus in 70 AD
and
the building of the Dome of the Rock by the Umayyad Caliph Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan in 691 AD. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abomination_of_desolation)

here are the candidates

which one was Jesus referring to?

chrysostom
June 10th, 2015, 08:21 AM
so here is the exercise
if
you choose to accept it

using biblegateway

search for the word abomination and there will be three hits in daniel

9:27, 11:31, and 12:11

look at the first two in all english translations

it is easy to do, just click on any single passage and look at the bottom of the page for it in all english translations



now, can you tell if they refer to the temple or the temple place
this is not easy



now search

he shall
and
they shall

now it is easy



he is the Antiochus IV Epiphanes
the second beast of daniel

they are the second beast of the apocalype
the fourth beast of daniel

chrysostom
October 1st, 2015, 04:17 PM
what is in the holy place now?

George Affleck
October 1st, 2015, 04:35 PM
Luke 21:20KJV

chrysostom
October 1st, 2015, 04:56 PM
Luke 21:20KJV

what is in the holy place now?

George Affleck
October 1st, 2015, 05:13 PM
what is in the holy place now?

It doesn't matter - the physical holy place does not exist.

Bradley D
October 1st, 2015, 08:36 PM
The Holy Place is wherever the Lord is.

"For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them" (Matthew 18:20).

chrysostom
October 2nd, 2015, 04:43 AM
what is in the holy place now?


It doesn't matter - the physical holy place does not exist.


The Holy Place is wherever the Lord is.

"For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them" (Matthew 18:20).

how will we know the abomination of desolation?

SaulToPaul
October 2nd, 2015, 06:25 AM
the abomination of desolation

found three times in daniel but the first two are quite telling
you may not find this in your bible

so what is in the holy place now?
the dome of the rock
and
it causes desolation
it is preventing the third temple
put there by the second beast of the apocalypse
the fourth beast of daniel
different from all the rest

here are the clues
what happened to the temple place?

Matthew 24:15New International Version (NIV)

15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—


Daniel 9:27New International Version (NIV)

27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’[a] In the middle of the ‘seven’[b] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple[c] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.[d]”[e]

Antiochus IV Epiphanes in 167 BC

the second beast of daniel

here there is a temple to desecrate and this temple was destroyed later by the third beast of daniel, the roman empire

Daniel 11:31New International Version (NIV)

31 “His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.

the Dome of the Rock by the Umayyad Caliph Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan in 691 AD

the fourth beast of daniel

there is no temple here

only the temple fortress or the holy place and this is the abomination referred to by Jesus

once this premise is established it is easy to show that the last two beasts of daniel are the two beasts of the apocalypse

:chuckle:

disturbo
October 2nd, 2015, 05:41 PM
how will we know the abomination of desolation?


what is in the holy place now?

Mathew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, whoso readeth, let him understand

Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:


how will we know the abomination of desolation?

The abomination is authenticated when the Islamic anti-Christ declares himself as some kind of god in the Dome of the Rock or Al'Aqsa mosque. East Jerusalem is the city of seven mountains. The Dome area is Mount Moriah and at the geographical center of Jerusalem's seven mountains. From that location the man of sin will authenticate himself by making it the headquarters of their Islamic Caliphate.

The harlot definetly represents the horrific atrocities of Islamic terrorism, but seems to represent the Shia sect more. It may be that the man of sin will try to make peace between the sects, and both sects could be present there....in the Dome of the Rock complex.

The Dome area complex is an abomination in itself. It's the only city God claimed as HIs own and an Islamic 'temple now 'sits upon' it. It is 'occupied' by an Islamic shrine where Muslims believe Muhammad ascended to heaven.

Not only is that an abomination it is anti-Christ. Around the octagonal structure of the Dome of the Rock is a long classical Arabic inscription that says that God has no begotten son, thus denying that Jesus is the Son of God.

It says...
- There is no God but Allah.
- God has no son; He begetteth not.
- God taketh not unto Himself a son.
- God has no associate.
- Muhammad is the messenger of God.
- Allah will preside on Judgment Day.

Islamic prophecy teaches that Jesus (the 'Muslim jesus') will return and convert all Christians to Islam. ISIS also believes that Jesus will return to help them defeat the Islamic dajjal. Now isn't that a little strong delusion.

disturbo
October 2nd, 2015, 06:28 PM
what is in the holy place now?

The holy place in Mathew 24:15 is not the Holy of Holies but simply the surrounding area of it.

According to Strong's...

1) place, any portion or space marked off, as it were from surrounding space
a) an inhabited place, as a city, village, district
a place (passage) in a book
2) metaph.
a) the condition or station held by one in any company or assembly
opportunity, power, occasion for acting

Acts 6:13, Acts 21:28 and Mt. 24:15 use two words are for 'holy place' (hagios and topos). Read those passages carefully and notice the context and you'll see that it's clear that those two words indicate the entire temple area.

The only two places the Holy of Holies "one word" is mentioned in the New Testament is Hebrews 9:25 and 9:12. It's clear that where only the one word for Holy place "hagion" is used it means the Holy of Holies.

Hagion and "hagios topos" is used 5 times in the NT. Twice for Holy of Holies. Three times for the entire temple area.

In Revelation 11:2 the Apostle John was instructed to measure the temple. "But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months." (Rev. 11:2)
These 42 months, or three and one half years, make up the time the Assyrian anti-Christ will trample on the holy city, Jerusalem.

The abomination will be set up in the outer courts, the court of the Gentiles, on a wing of the temple. It is likely this is one of the Islamic sights is already located there. The passage doesn't mean a temple needs to be rebuilt. The religious complex of the Dome or the outer court, or the Al'Aqsa mosque is sufficient to fulfill end-time prophecy.

Since the man of sin is said to sit in the temple of God many believe a temple needs rebuilding. The 'experts' also use Daniel 9:26-27 to say another temple needs rebuilding.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Temple in 2 Thes. 2 is naos Strong's # 3485 and that word is the one used to imply a heathen temple.
1) used of the temple at Jerusalem,
2) any heathen temple or shrine

This word is also used in the book of Acts to describe the temple that the idol stood in.

Is it just a coincidence that in East Jerusalem an Islamic complex sits upon Herod's and Solomon's Temple?

George Affleck
October 2nd, 2015, 09:26 PM
how will we know the abomination of desolation?

If you're going to continue to play games, I'm out. Got lot's of real stuff to do.

The Bible says the abomination of desolation was the Roman army of AD 70. It no longer exists and neither does the temple.

It is all past history - prophesied and fulfilled - over and out.

:dog:

whitestone
October 2nd, 2015, 09:55 PM
Lord of Host,none close their eyes or enter into the Temple.None new you were in me. I can touch me,They come to this temple and offer fruits. Some come to this temple hatefully,some with great love. Here are the things they laid at the body where you reside. It is I think a Mystery,Christ in me.

Bradley D
October 3rd, 2015, 12:19 AM
If you're going to continue to play games, I'm out. Got lot's of real stuff to do.

The Bible says the abomination of desolation was the Roman army of AD 70. It no longer exists and neither does the temple.

It is all past history - prophesied and fulfilled - over and out.

:dog:

I do not believe the Bible actually said the "Roman army of AD 70. A number of commentators believe that is what that passage probably referred to. I also believe that often prophecy may also refer to other events past, present, future. Some may see a mosque sitting on the temple mount an "abomination of desolation." In the future it may be another thing.

George Affleck
October 4th, 2015, 02:33 PM
I do not believe the Bible actually said the "Roman army of AD 70. A number of commentators believe that is what that passage probably referred to. I also believe that often prophecy may also refer to other events past, present, future. Some may see a mosque sitting on the temple mount an "abomination of desolation." In the future it may be another thing.

Bradley,

I don't think there is any question that these verses in the 3 gospels are parallel verses incorporating different aspects of Jesus' words...

Matt 24:15KJV Mark 13:14KJV Luke 21:20KJV ...and that they show that the prophesied abomination of desolation was physically fulfilled and, in fact, the Roman army that "compassed" Jerusalem.

I agree that there are times when prophecies have 2 meanings. It is, however, always a physical meaning and also a symbolic meaning. I can't think of any place in the Bible where one prophecy can be shown to have 2 physical fulfilments. (Going out on a limb here)

If you can think of any, please let me know. I would be very interested.

aikido7
October 4th, 2015, 02:41 PM
the abomination of desolation

found three times in daniel but the first two are quite telling
you may not find this in your bible

so what is in the holy place now?
the dome of the rock
and
it causes desolation
it is preventing the third temple
put there by the second beast of the apocalypse
the fourth beast of daniel
different from all the rest

here are the clues
what happened to the temple place?

Matthew 24:15New International Version (NIV)

15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—


Daniel 9:27New International Version (NIV)

27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’[a] In the middle of the ‘seven’[b] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple[c] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.[d]”[e]

Antiochus IV Epiphanes in 167 BC

the second beast of daniel

here there is a temple to desecrate and this temple was destroyed later by the third beast of daniel, the roman empire

Daniel 11:31New International Version (NIV)

31 “His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.

the Dome of the Rock by the Umayyad Caliph Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan in 691 AD

the fourth beast of daniel

there is no temple here

only the temple fortress or the holy place and this is the abomination referred to by Jesus

once this premise is established it is easy to show that the last two beasts of daniel are the two beasts of the apocalypse

What exactly ARE the abominations listed in the Bible?

I am aware that people with wicked thoughts, eating shellfish, a "four-legged insect" (which does not exist!), eating pork, divorce, love of money, wearing clothing that has different textiles, and many, many other examples.

How do you stack up with these literal and forceful statements?

Interplanner
October 4th, 2015, 08:24 PM
Chrys did not back up far enough.

the expression starts in Dan 8:13 and is the 'rebellion that desolates.' this rebellion would take place during the 4th kingdom, Rome. In 9 it is modified to the 'abomination that desolates.' When Josephus commented on this, he knew that it had to do with his generation (no gaps in the 490 years). Caiaphas was also concerned that the entire nation would perish, and thought he could 'beat' the prophecy by the sacrifice of Jesus, Jn 12 and 18.

It is not something Rome did. it is not something intertestament. It was not the crucifying of Christ, although that leads into it. it was the rebellion against Rome and Luke-Acts was written to show that the Christian mission had nothing to do with rebellion as such even though their teachings were undermining Rome's Caesarian theology. Paul wanted his countrymen in the mission of the Gospel (Rom 10-11) not trying to fight Rome.

Bradley D
October 6th, 2015, 12:04 AM
Bradley,

I don't think there is any question that these verses in the 3 gospels are parallel verses incorporating different aspects of Jesus' words...

Matt 24:15KJV Mark 13:14KJV Luke 21:20KJV ...and that they show that the prophesied abomination of desolation was physically fulfilled and, in fact, the Roman army that "compassed" Jerusalem.

I agree that there are times when prophecies have 2 meanings. It is, however, always a physical meaning and also a symbolic meaning. I can't think of any place in the Bible where one prophecy can be shown to have 2 physical fulfilments. (Going out on a limb here)

If you can think of any, please let me know. I would be very interested.

I believe the prophecy predicted the fall of Jerusalem by the Romans in AD 70. What I was arguing was that the Bible does not specifically name the Romans as the fulfillers of that prophecy.

disturbo
October 6th, 2015, 02:41 PM
Matt 24:15KJV Mark 13:14KJV Luke 21:20KJV ...and that they show that the prophesied abomination of desolation was physically fulfilled and, in fact, the Roman army that "compassed" Jerusalem.

Really? Where in the bible do you see that fulfillment?!

NONE of those verses implicate Rome in any way. In the past 12+ years I've been on forums, not ONE person has ever been able to quote ONE verse of bible prophecy implicating Rome in any way. The only reason why people still believe it today is because, "that's what they've been taught."

Mathew 24:14, the verse before the 'abomination' verse says...

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Well the gospel is still being preached and the end has not yet come. You guys would do a better job of interpretation if you would use the lexicons. Most of you are unaware that Mathew 24 has 3 different words for WORLD and 3 different words for END. If you would consider that in your interpretation, maybe you would see things differently. Those words actually DEBUNK preterism and pre-trib.


I agree that there are times when prophecies have 2 meanings. It is, however, always a physical meaning and also a symbolic meaning. I can't think of any place in the Bible where one prophecy can be shown to have 2 physical fulfilments. (Going out on a limb here)

If you can think of any, please let me know. I would be very interested.

There are a few, but doubt most people would believe it. Most futurist say that Isaiah's prophecy about Damascus is prophecy fulfilled. I say it's not and could refer to Damascus past and future. Mostly future.

OCTOBER23
October 6th, 2015, 02:52 PM
What is in the holy place now? - THIRD TEMPLE

It causes desolation - "KABOOM"
------------------------------------------------------

What happened to the temple place?
--------------------------------------->

The Antichrist sets up a Bomb in the Nation of Israel IN THE HOLY PLACE.

The Antichrist (SATAN) WANTS TO BLOW UP THE HOLY PLACE

BUT GOD TAKES -"THE ARK OF THE COVENANT " - UP TO HEAVEN.

WHEN JESUS LANDS ON THE MOUNT OF OLIVES.

Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven,

and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament:

and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings,

and an earthquake, and great hail.

George Affleck
October 6th, 2015, 08:58 PM
Really? Where in the bible do you see that fulfillment?!

NONE of those verses implicate Rome in any way. In the past 12+ years I've been on forums, not ONE person has ever been able to quote ONE verse of bible prophecy implicating Rome in any way. The only reason why people still believe it today is because, "that's what they've been taught."

I just showed you. Matt 24:15KJV Mark 13:14KJV Luke 21:20KJV
The fact that it was the Roman army is incidental but nevertheless factual. It could have been any desecration within the time period allowed by Jesus' prophecy.
The important thing is that a desecration actually stood where it ought not; in the holy place. That is the abominable part of "the abomination that makes desolate" the holy city.
But it had to happen sometime during the lifespan of the listeners. Matt 24:34KJV


Mathew 24:14, the verse before the 'abomination' verse says...

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Well the gospel is still being preached and the end has not yet come. You guys would do a better job of interpretation if you would use the lexicons. Most of you are unaware that Mathew 24 has 3 different words for WORLD and 3 different words for END. If you would consider that in your interpretation, maybe you would see things differently. Those words actually DEBUNK preterism and pre-trib.


The gospel was preached in all the world for a witness to all nations prior to AD70.

Please read Acts chapter 2 for the fulfilment.
God's Word remarkably interprets itself!

George Affleck
October 6th, 2015, 09:23 PM
I believe the prophecy predicted the fall of Jerusalem by the Romans in AD 70. What I was arguing was that the Bible does not specifically name the Romans as the fulfillers of that prophecy.

Correct. Daniel did not call it the Roman Empire. We have the advantage of looking at history and naming the Empires how we want.

It was, however, during the period represented by the iron legs of Daniel's vision which we now know corresponds with the Roman Empire.

Blessings.

Interplanner
October 7th, 2015, 08:36 AM
I just showed you. Matt 24:15KJV Mark 13:14KJV Luke 21:20KJV
The fact that it was the Roman army is incidental but nevertheless factual. It could have been any desecration within the time period allowed by Jesus' prophecy.
The important thing is that a desecration actually stood where it ought not; in the holy place. That is the abominable part of "the abomination that makes desolate" the holy city.
But it had to happen sometime during the lifespan of the listeners. Matt 24:34KJV



The gospel was preached in all the world for a witness to all nations prior to AD70.

Please read Acts chapter 2 for the fulfilment.
God's Word remarkably interprets itself!




Paul says twice it reached the whole world.

The delay needs to be accounted for. Paul and Luke especially believed the final day of judgement to be coming right after the destruction of Israel. But Mark and Matthew allow for a delay and Peter affirms that and explains it.

George Affleck
October 7th, 2015, 08:55 AM
Paul says twice it reached the whole world.

Correct. Col 1:23KJV Rom 16:26KJV
More importantly, God was behind the saying of it.


The delay needs to be accounted for. Paul and Luke especially believed the final day of judgement to be coming right after the destruction of Israel. But Mark and Matthew allow for a delay and Peter affirms that and explains it.

The question is really, what was the judgement that was being talked about. Was it the final judgement at the end of the world? Or was it a judgement upon God's physical, national, people and the introduction of a new testament in which all peoples must enter the Kingdom by way of Christ?

Hawkins
October 7th, 2015, 09:06 AM
Temple is spiritually our Church today. A prophecy can fulfill more than once, say, a physical realization in AD70 and a spiritual realization when the very end comes.

Desolation is the destruction of the temple, subsequently causing no harvest. Our earthly Church is the base of soul saving. If it's destructed, souls saved are expected to be greatly reduced.

Destruction of temple means the church changed its nature that soul saving through the Church may no longer effective or possible. The Church may no longer play the role for the salvation of humans. As Satan is worshiped in a form instead of God.

Abomination leading to destruction is most likely a false doctrine gets into our Church which makes the Church fails its primary purpose of soul saving. For an example, the legalization of homosexuality inside the Church may disable the Church from being a soul saving agent. It makes the Church a place where sin is legalized, Satan is worshiped. Christ is no longer its head. Homosexuality in this example is thus the abomination causing desolation.


God disallows something sinful to be in the Church, but humans decided to legalize this abomination inside the church. The church will thus lose its ability to serve God's salvation purpose. Satan/sin is put in the high place inside the church - the supposed Holy Place of God. This is the abomination causing desolation.

On the other hand, the whole purpose of planet earth is for human souls to be harvested. If the church lost its ability to effectively do so, the earth will lose most of its defined purposes. God/Christ will thus return.

George Affleck
October 7th, 2015, 09:24 AM
Temple is spiritually our Church today. A prophecy can fulfill more than once, say, a physical realization in AD70 and a spiritual realization when the very end comes.

Desolation is the destruction of the temple, subsequently causing no harvest. Our earthly Church is the base of soul saving. If it's destructed, souls saved are expected to be greatly reduced.

Destruction of temple means the church changed its nature that soul saving through the Church may no longer effective or possible. The Church may no longer play the role for the salvation of humans. As Satan is worshiped in a form instead of God.

Abomination leading to destruction is most likely a false doctrine gets into our Church which makes the Church fails its primary purpose of soul saving. For an example, the legalization of homosexuality inside the Church may disable the Church from being a soul saving agent. It makes the Church a place where sin is legalized, Satan is worshiped. Christ is no longer its head. Homosexuality in this example is thus the abomination causing desolation.


God disallows something sinful to be in the Church, but humans decided to legalize this abomination inside the church. The church will thus lose its ability to serve God's salvation purpose. Satan/sin is put in the high place inside the church - the supposed Holy Place of God. This is the abomination causing desolation.

On the other hand, the whole purpose of planet earth is for human souls to be harvested. If the church lost its ability to effectively do so, the earth will lose most of its defined purposes. God/Christ will thus return.

These seem like wonderful sentiments but it places the subject of interpretation in the hands of anyone with an axe to grind. With this notion I disagree. This is where we depart from God's agenda by introducing our own.

Stick to what God has revealed and you can't go wrong.

Hawkins
October 7th, 2015, 09:36 AM
These seem like wonderful sentiments but it places the subject of interpretation in the hands of anyone with an axe to grind.

Prophecies behave so.




With this notion I disagree. This is where we depart from God's agenda by introducing our own.

Stick to what God has revealed and you can't go wrong.

The problem is, you can't always tell what is revealed by God and what's not, can you?

Wick Stick
October 7th, 2015, 09:48 AM
so what is in the holy place now?
the dome of the rock
and
it causes desolation
it is preventing the third temple
There's a theory out there that the temple wasn't located where the dome of the rock currently sits, but rather at the south end of the temple mount, in the area where the ruins still sit.

Matches up with the whole "not one brick left on another" thing.

http://realtemplemount.com/

Wick Stick
October 7th, 2015, 09:56 AM
I just showed you. Matt 24:15KJV Mark 13:14KJV Luke 21:20KJV
The fact that it was the Roman army is incidental but nevertheless factual. It could have been any desecration within the time period allowed by Jesus' prophecy.
The important thing is that a desecration actually stood where it ought not; in the holy place. That is the abominable part of "the abomination that makes desolate" the holy city.
But it had to happen sometime during the lifespan of the listeners. Matt 24:34KJV

The gospel was preached in all the world for a witness to all nations prior to AD70.

Please read Acts chapter 2 for the fulfilment.
God's Word remarkably interprets itself!
I don't think it was the Romans, but rather the Zealots.

Before the Roman siege got underway, the Zealots had an insurrection in the city, and seized the temple, using it as their stronghold and base of operations. Look up "Zealot Temple Siege (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zealot_Temple_Siege)."

2Thessalonians 2:3-4 shows that the "abomination" was also a man, the "son of perdition." That would be the leader of the zealots, occupying the temple.

Jesus said when they saw the abomination, to flee to the hills. If the abomination was the Romans standing in the temple, then that warning wasn't very timely.

If it was the zealots occupying the temple, it's quite timely - just months before the Roman siege began in earnest.

Jarrod

George Affleck
October 7th, 2015, 10:13 AM
Prophecies behave so.

Disagree. The prophecies of those who were inspired by God and recorded in His Word are specific, accurate, and have fulfilment in kind.




The problem is, you can't always tell what is revealed by God and what's not, can you?

Yes, one can. The Bible is God's only revelation to man. He and His perfect plan of redemption is outlined in it.

George Affleck
October 7th, 2015, 10:18 AM
Jesus said when they saw the abomination, to flee to the hills. If the abomination was the Romans standing in the temple, then that warning wasn't very timely.

Jarrod

Jesus' direction on timing was perfect.

Had the faithful (those to whom He was speaking) attempted to flee earlier, they would have been killed by their own people as traitors. Had they fled later, they would have been killed by the Romans.

The opportune time was when everyone had their eyes on the temple conflagration.

Interplanner
October 7th, 2015, 05:24 PM
Jesus' direction on timing was perfect.

Had the faithful (those to whom He was speaking) attempted to flee earlier, they would have been killed by their own people as traitors. Had they fled later, they would have been killed by the Romans.

The opportune time was when everyone had their eyes on the temple conflagration.



The expression started out as the 'rebellion that desolates' in Dan 8:13. This is what Josephus and Caiaphas (Jn 12, 18) were concerned about--that it would ruin the country. The rebellion had to be Israel's fault to be called an abomination; otherwise you'd have God destroying Israel for something Rome did. The Christians should have left anytime they could see that the zealots were taking charge, once the incident happened out at Caesarea in 66. If not before.

All departures would be perilous, no matter when they did it. However, there was an interruption in the war in 67 when Rome had so much conflict back at the capitol that Vespasian left off the war and Rome did nothing for a year. Some of them probably got away during that year. Vespasian ended up as emperor and his son Titus came and finished up.

Interplanner
October 7th, 2015, 05:28 PM
I don't think it was the Romans, but rather the Zealots.

Before the Roman siege got underway, the Zealots had an insurrection in the city, and seized the temple, using it as their stronghold and base of operations. Look up "Zealot Temple Siege (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zealot_Temple_Siege)."

2Thessalonians 2:3-4 shows that the "abomination" was also a man, the "son of perdition." That would be the leader of the zealots, occupying the temple.

Jesus said when they saw the abomination, to flee to the hills. If the abomination was the Romans standing in the temple, then that warning wasn't very timely.

If it was the zealots occupying the temple, it's quite timely - just months before the Roman siege began in earnest.

Jarrod



Mostly good points, Jarrod, except that there was a one year delay in the war. Christians would have had some opportunities during that year.

But you are right: the Thess material was about the zealots that claimed divine/messianic anointing to fight Rome. John of Gischala was the leading guy of the three. We know that claiming to be Messiah meant to claim to be God in Judaism because of what happened to Jesus...

disturbo
October 7th, 2015, 06:19 PM
I just showed you. Matt 24:15KJV Mark 13:14KJV Luke 21:20KJV


You showed me nothing. I asked where Rome was implied and you and I quoted the verses for you. Luke 21 may imply Roman armies, but to say Rome is responsible for the fulfillment of Revelation and Mathew 24 absurd.

Where do you find, not fabricate, BUT FIND ROME as the abomination in any of these verses...

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand.

Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

The Jews misunderstood this passage just like you. In 70 AD most Jews expected the Messiah to return in glory when hostile Gentile armies surrounded Jerusalem. When the Romans circled the city in 70 A.D., many of the Jews rejoiced thinking the Lord was about to return. But it didn't happen.


The important thing is that a desecration actually stood where it ought not; in the holy place. That is the abominable part of "the abomination that makes desolate" the holy city.

It so easy to fabricate such nonsense, but another thing to prove it. Preterism is a fabricated mess and God hates it. How can anyone believe ROME is implied in those passages, and then linking it to the rest of prophecy is absurd.

I don't like preterism. It's one step up from atheism. That's why it's banned from some forums.

Atheist say there's no God. (or no evidence for God) Preterist say God doesn't have a prophetic Word because it has already passed in the first century. That's a prophetic cop out. It's so easy to say that prophecy has already been fulfilled and much more difficult to understand prophecy in the future sense. If I was still pastoring a church and knew there were a preterist in our midst preaching preterism, I would ask him or her to STOP promoting the lies. And if they didn't, I would do just what the Word says to do.....tell them to get OUT!


The fact that it was the Roman army is incidental but nevertheless factual. It could have been any desecration within the time period allowed by Jesus' prophecy.

As opposed to what you read most places like WIKI, it wasn't the Romans who destroyed the city and temple. It was the CIMMERIANS AND THE SCYTHIANS who came from Asia minor.


Please read Acts chapter 2 for the fulfilment.
God's Word remarkably interprets itself!

I've probably read it more than you have. You need to read it without fabricating a bunch of stuff out of it. The two greatest fabricated teachings in Christianity are preterism and pretribulationism.


The gospel was preached in all the world for a witness to all nations prior to AD70.

See what I mean about how easy it is to say things have already been fulfilled? The gospel WAS NOT preached in all the world, and it WAS NOT a witness to all people EVEN TODAY!. Let me help you with this. IF you would only understand that there are three words for world and three words for END in Mathew 24, AND ACCEPT THE MEANING OF THOSE WORDS, you would get somewhere. In Mathew 24:14 the word world is...

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

World...#3625...
'oikoumenē' MEANS THE ENTIRE INHABITED EARTH.

The kingdom of God has not arrived, the kingdom is still being preached to all nations, better interpreted PEOPLE, and the END has not yet come!

END...

termination, the limit at which a thing ceases to be (always of the end of some act or state, but not of the end of a period of time)


But it had to happen sometime during the lifespan of the listeners. Matt 24:34KJV

So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

If you ask anybody who knows anything about grammar, they will tell you that the generation Jesus was talking about was the generation which "shall see all these things." Jesus WAS NOT referring to the generation of his time. That's why they called it, "grammar school"! When Jesus said 'this generation' he was referring to the generation that witnesses the events Jesus already mentioned. I have never met a preterist who could explain how all the things Jesus mentioned in 47 verses of prophecy in Mt. 24 were fulfilled in the first century.

The word 'this' is another word people pay no attention to. The word refers to the substance of the preceding discourse. So what generation was Jesus referring to? It can't be the generation of the disciples, because they never saw Jesus return in glory as described in Matthew 24:30. It's no doubt the generation that sees these signs.

Mathew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

My 8th grade granddaughter can read Mathew 24 and walk away understanding it better than you. WHY? Because you've accepted the misleading teachings of preterism.

One more thing...

The questions the disciples asked were,

1. When these stones would fall.
2. What would be the sign of thy coming.
3. What would be the sign of the end of the age.

It took Jesus the rest of the chapter to answer.

One problem...

The stones have not all fallen.

And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

These Words of Jesus...

See ye not all these things?
Included the massive stones of the Western Wall. When they fall, that's the first sign of 'birthpangs.'

Today there is "one stone upon another," in the Wailing Wall. The Muslims want nothing more than to destroy it and occupy East Jerusalem. When they occupy East Jerusalem and make the Dome Islam's world headquarters, I think the Wailing Wall comes down. That Dome area is an anti-Christ monument since it 'occupies' Herod's and Solomon’s Temple. This area is, "The Holy Place," God's only personally claimed piece of real estate on the planet. This is an abomination because within the inscription that surrounds the octagonal structure of the Dome are the words, "god (Allah) hath no begotten son."

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/40/Western_wall_jerusalem_night.jpg/800px-Western_wall_jerusalem_night.jpg

chrysostom
October 28th, 2015, 06:05 AM
There's a theory out there that the temple wasn't located where the dome of the rock currently sits, but rather at the south end of the temple mount, in the area where the ruins still sit.

Matches up with the whole "not one brick left on another" thing.

http://realtemplemount.com/

the jews know where the holy place is
and
they know what is preventing the daily sacrifice

Wick Stick
October 28th, 2015, 10:31 AM
the jews know where the holy place is
and
they know what is preventing the daily sacrifice
Throughout history, clearly they have a track record of properly interpreting history and prophecy.

Oh wait, it's the opposite.

chrysostom
November 10th, 2015, 08:59 AM
the jews cannot build the temple

the dome of the rock is preventing it

WonderfulLordJesus
November 10th, 2015, 09:14 AM
the jews cannot build the temple

the dome of the rock is preventing it

Maybe so, but maybe not. I don't know on what basis the exact spot of the dome is prerequisite for the Jews to have a temple. It can't be categorically said the dome and a temple couldn't be co-located in the same court.

In any event, we do know there will be a temple, as God's word is clear on this, and there will be a temple in God's time, these things not really up to man, just as it is the Lord, and only the Lord, that opens the seals in Revelation 6. People are quite mistaken that the likes of Satan are calling the shots, this one reason all the antichrist conspiracy theories, as if man's politics must be just so to bring about the apocalypse, are silliness. Absolutely nothing such even commences, until God says so. But when He does say so, it's, "Behold, I come quickly."

Isaiah 46

8 Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors.
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness:
13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

chrysostom
November 10th, 2015, 09:20 AM
In any event, we do know there will be a temple, as God's word is clear on this,

it is clear to me that there will not be a third temple

what book are you reading?

WonderfulLordJesus
November 10th, 2015, 09:21 AM
it is clear to me that there will not be a third temple

what book are you reading?

Let me give you a hint. It's not the Catechism.

chrysostom
November 10th, 2015, 09:24 AM
julian the apostate
who
was a pagan emperor
ordered the third temple to be built
just to prove the christians wrong
guess what?
mysterious fires prevented the construction
you won't find that in your bible
you have to read history books
for the rest of the story

chrysostom
November 29th, 2015, 10:26 AM
what is in the holy place now?

Interplanner
November 29th, 2015, 12:18 PM
There could be a third temple because of a mass of people being deluded. there is no need for a third temple in the sense that "Bible prophecy" needs that to happen.

chrysostom
November 30th, 2015, 07:35 AM
There could be a third temple because of a mass of people being deluded. there is no need for a third temple in the sense that "Bible prophecy" needs that to happen.

in Matthew 24:2 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+24:2&version=KJV)
Jesus says there will not be a third temple

Wick Stick
November 30th, 2015, 10:11 AM
what is in the holy place now?
Cheap condominiums.

http://becomingone.org/templemount.htm/

chrysostom
November 30th, 2015, 10:59 AM
what is in the holy place now?


Cheap condominiums.


why can't you answer the question?

Interplanner
November 30th, 2015, 09:37 PM
in Matthew 24:2 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+24:2&version=KJV)
Jesus says there will not be a third temple


It says the 2nd would be torn down. it does not preclude that people might be deluded enough to rebuild.

Every other delusion is popping out; why not that?

Wick Stick
December 2nd, 2015, 12:37 PM
why can't you answer the question?
I was serious. History has mis-remembered the site of the first two temples. The dome of the rock is not sitting on the temple site.

I'm not sure if you have any interest in archaeology, but I do. The "City of David" area at the south end of the current "Old Jerusalem" is demonstrably the location of Jerusalem (the whole city) prior to the diaspora. Solomon didn't build his temple outside the city to the north.

Moreover, the Biblical text itself demands that there be springs of water ("living water") inside the temple complex, which demands that the complex be at the south end of the mount, since the Gihon spring is there, and is the only spring in/near Jerusalem. All the tunnels and aquaducts take water south from that point (which is away from the traditional temple mount site).

If you have any interest, read up on it. I realize tradition is important to you. Perhaps you should understand it in terms of subscribing to an older tradition. The site I here promote agrees with the writings of Josephus and other pre-NT sources, and is based on a number of different scholarly papers and books; not some invention of my own imaginations.

Jarrod

Ben Masada
December 3rd, 2015, 03:57 PM
what is in the holy place now?

In the holy place stands the abomination of desolation. We need some Maccabees with the guts of those in the time of the Hasmonian period to remove it.

OCTOBER23
December 5th, 2015, 12:41 PM
JOSEPHUS SAID THAT HE COULD NOT SEE THE TEMPLE FROM THE NORTH SIDE.

Therefore, it must have been at the South End where the Stones are presently

thrown down.

Matthew 24:2 And Jesus said of HEROD'S TEMPLE

There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

============
the real ark of the covenant found - Google Search.html

RON WYATT DISCOVERED THE ARC OF THE COVENANT 20 FEET BELOW

THE CRUCIFIXION SITE WHERE JESUS BLOOD DRIPPED UPON THE MERCY SEAT.

THE JEWS WILL PROBABLY DIG THE ARC OUT AND PLACE IT IN THEIR NEW TEMPLE.

False Prophet
December 5th, 2015, 03:11 PM
[27]And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. dan 9
Isis is the king of the North. The man of sin or the son of perdition shall enter the temple of God proclaiming that he is God. Look at Dan 11:35 because it is yet for a time appointed. The king of the north is Syria, and the king of the south is Egypt. The time appointed is the last days preceding the battle of Armageddon.
36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things. dan 11
The king of the north shall enter Haram al-Sharif claiming that he is God. He shall subdue three kings [Syria, Iraq, and Jordan].
[I]3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2 thess 2

chrysostom
December 27th, 2015, 04:52 AM
what is in the holy place now?

Ben Masada
December 27th, 2015, 05:07 AM
so what is in the holy place now? the dome of the rock and it causes desolation it is preventing the third temple
put there by the second beast of the apocalypse the fourth beast of daniel different from all the rest here are the clues
what happened to the temple place?



The Holy Place is under the abomination of desolation. Although we do have the power to dislodge it from there, It seems to me that, it is not HaShem's will to return to the system of sacrifices, considering that the Lord declared through Prophet Jeremiah in the first place that He had never commanded that sacrifices be part of the Faith of Israel. (Jer. 7:22)

chrysostom
December 27th, 2015, 05:18 AM
Although we do have the power to dislodge it from there,

who is we?

Interplanner
December 27th, 2015, 07:10 AM
The Holy Place is under the abomination of desolation. Although we do have the power to dislodge it from there, It seems to me that, it is not HaShem's will to return to the system of sacrifices, considering that the Lord declared through Prophet Jeremiah in the first place that He had never commanded that sacrifices be part of the Faith of Israel. (Jer. 7:22)


Yes, he commanded them (not just about... means he did command it), but never without the right spirit. At the end of the chapter we find that they are worshiping the sun and the planets, with child sacrifices like the pagans they were supposed to destroy. Pretty mixed up.

chrysostom
January 17th, 2016, 05:45 AM
so where is the holy place?

chrysostom
February 7th, 2016, 05:38 AM
the dome of the rock

keypurr
February 9th, 2016, 10:17 AM
I found this in my Bible and it is even more telling: the word for abomination, (GSN#946 bdelugma) is found only three times in all of the four Gospel accounts. The first two occurrences are both from the same statement recorded twice in Matthew and Mark from the Olivet Discourse. This means that according to the Gospel writers the Master in fact only spoke of abomination two times in total because the two from the Olivet Discourse are the same statement recorded twice by two different authors. The third mention of bdelguma occurs in the Gospel of Luke which means that is the only other time the Master used that word. This fact should truly give pause to anyone who claims to be a disciple of Yeshua because it strongly implies that this is the one and only teaching from the Master on this particular topic of discussion:



Matthew 24:15 ASV

15. When therefore ye see the abomination [GSN#946 bdelugma] of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand),



Mark 13:14 ASV

14. But when ye see the abomination [GSN#946 bdelugma] of desolation standing where he ought not (let him that readeth understand), then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains:



The above is the first usage of bdelugma which has been recorded by two different authors. The following is the only other usage of the same word until the Book of the Revelation of Yeshua and, therefore, this word and doctrine of the Master in its context should be the only acceptable interpretation of the first usage for anyone who claims to be a disciple of Yeshua and his teachings:



Luke 16:14-15 ASV

14. And the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, heard all these things; and they scoffed at him.

15. And he said unto them, Ye are they that justify yourselves in the sight of men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is exalted among men is an abomination [GSN#946 bdelugma] in the sight of God.



I have recently been going over much that is relative to these things in another thread with another poster here who seems to think like he is immune from most all of these critical statements of the Master: the "abomination of desolation" takes place in the heart of the man according to the Testimony and doctrine of Yeshua because every man is a personal and individual bodily temple of God, (1 Corinthians 6:19-20). :)


Amen, most do not know where the Holy Place is.
Who knows the Holy place better than the Father?
Who is standing in the place of God?

They really care not who they put into their Holy place.

SaulToPaul
February 9th, 2016, 10:19 AM
the dome of the rock

:chuckle:

Ben Masada
February 9th, 2016, 10:42 AM
the abomination of desolation



Originally, the definition is connected to that event when Antiochus IV Epyphane built the statue of Zeus in the Holy of Holies in the Temple which rendered the Temple doomed for destruction. The destruction was prevented when the priest Mathatias, the father of the Maccabees fought back with gusto and prevented the destruction of the Temple by purifying the Temple whose event became historically known as Hanukkah. Hence, every year we still celebrate the work of the Maccabees.

daqq
February 10th, 2016, 03:14 AM
Amen, most do not know where the Holy Place is.
Who knows the Holy place better than the Father?
Who is standing in the place of God?

They really care not who they put into their Holy place.

Every man is likened to a tree: and when it comes to figs and vines there are both the good figs and the evil, the good grapes and the evil. As for the evil Assyrian genos of fig; his haughty bough will put forth his foliage, and shall begin to exalt himself from among the boughs, but in the summer of his harvest the mighty bough shall be lopped off with terror, and the high ones of stature shall be hewn down, and the haughty shall be humbled. For we must all appear before the Bema of Messiah so that each and every one may receive the things done in the body, accordingly as to whatever has been practiced, whether for the good, or whether for the evil. Knowing therefore the fear of Adonai we persuade men. :)

Zeke
February 10th, 2016, 09:47 AM
JOSEPHUS SAID THAT HE COULD NOT SEE THE TEMPLE FROM THE NORTH SIDE.

Therefore, it must have been at the South End where the Stones are presently

thrown down.

Matthew 24:2 And Jesus said of HEROD'S TEMPLE

There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

============
the real ark of the covenant found - Google Search.html

RON WYATT DISCOVERED THE ARC OF THE COVENANT 20 FEET BELOW

THE CRUCIFIXION SITE WHERE JESUS BLOOD DRIPPED UPON THE MERCY SEAT.

THE JEWS WILL PROBABLY DIG THE ARC OUT AND PLACE IT IN THEIR NEW TEMPLE.

Luke 17:20-21, the ark and covenants are found there not in buildings or temples (allegory/symbols) made with hands Acts 17:24 Galatians 4:23-28, The heart/conscience full of labels and outward based theology needs to be trimmed down Philippians 3:8, to a feather's weight within our heart/conscience 1Cor 2:16, Philippians 2:5 where silence overcomes 1John 4:18 this worlds artificial dead personas/corporations that build abominations for outward wars created through doctrines/religions mixing symbol with substance Galatians 4:3, 1Cor 3:2, which brings on the wrong revelation, that should take place inwardly Galatians 1:12, 1John 4:8, 1Cor 12:31, 13:1-13.

chrysostom
March 2nd, 2016, 05:00 AM
-so what is in the holy place now?

-the dome of the rock

SaulToPaul
March 2nd, 2016, 06:58 AM
-so what is in the holy place now?

-the dome of the rock

:chuckle:

The abomination that MAKETH DESOLATE.

Not the abomination that sits in the place that was made desolate.

Interplanner
March 6th, 2016, 10:11 AM
:chuckle:

The abomination that MAKETH DESOLATE.

Not the abomination that sits in the place that was made desolate.


The MT 24A passage was about events in 1st century Judea. That AofD sat in the temple then; the verb refers to a person who has ruling authority. The temple was used as a fort by the rebellion.

Here is a key NT eschatology principle: Mt24A is about 1st century Judea; 24B is about the worldwide judgement of God which has not yet happened. Like the rest of the NT about the 2nd coming there is nothing specific about Judea or Judaism in Mt24B. They are all about the day of worldwide judgement.

Flaminggg
March 7th, 2016, 01:02 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEKldawAhyk (Video)

The "Abomination of Desolation" is the portion of mankind, that Jesus see's as the "Unforgivable Sin". The "Unforgivable Sin" is any spiritual relationship that God does not use Jesus as the payment for sin. ... ... ... ... in relation to mankind, the "Abomination of Desolation" will takes its own life when the Gospel Messages goes out. God simply does not allow this relationship with mankind to life to witness Star Wormwood, in simpler terms these are specific genetic lines, darker shades and all human life outside the "heart of judah"/USA. ... ... ... ... "Suicide by Antichrist" is an achievement in the sense that, it means, God has already stopped restraining their sin, so if there is any progression to that argument, you will have to take the majority of these people's lives, for public safety.

Joshua 7:21-26, and Numbers 25:6-8 ... God calls these people the "Abomination of Desolation", and commands Isreal to take their lives, because he is not paying for their sin. The common theme typically voiced by language of exchange, like the "shekel", which denotes, "Unforgivable Sin", as this leads to Death/Abominable ... ... ... ... Jesus and Joseph are numbered at Thirty in Luke 3:23, and Judas throws down Thirty Shekels in Matthew 27:3, the value is not so much as important, as the exclamation that as the Gospel Goes out, man is also convicted of a death sentence.

The Death Sentence the Gospel affords continues to the Gospel's completion, which is why the parable of Daniel's Seventy Weeks, indicates that man is still choosing to die in some capacity even until the very end.

(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k492/psalmsamuel/stateID.jpg, Genetic Dan does not have a legal right to live, so far they usually stop committing murder after only a few pass away, sometimes more. March 8, 2016 is going to set a precedent, and immediately after that, if they do not use this information to take their own lives, I will walk around after dark to assist in their suicide. At this level, I do not believe they are motivated enough to attack law enforcement directly or the public directly in waves. So, what I need you to do is to turn a blind eye to what I've had to say, then we need to keep watch and do this again on March 23, 2016 ... maybe a few more things to say about the unforgivable sin in the future ... Noah indicates in genesis that approaching the 195 days, the animals started to die, so you will have your chance, for now, let these people continue to take their lives in foolishness targeting the Antichrist, the level of force needs to be maintained)

Flaminggg
March 7th, 2016, 10:42 AM
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k492/psalmsamuel/ChangelingChild_zpsqtbjimfx.jpg
(picture of Joseph) http://rarehistoricalphotos.com/girl-grew-concentration-camp-draws-picture-home-living-residence-disturbed-children-1948/

Our last example compared: "Joseph to the Abomination of Desolation", our last examples did not claim that "Joseph was the Abomination of Desolation". "Joseph" is a hyperdimensional relationship that identifies with Star Wormwood, its not the same, but it does identify with the equal potential the gospel program affords. Much simpler terms, the people that Jesus did not pay for any sins, they are revealed as "Abominable" by some increasing measure until the end of time. When Jesus incarnated, it was to announce the "144,000 of Joseph", that Moses identified with by reason of baring the "Rod of Joseph/Antichrist":

God begins to Refer to "Joseph the Blessing" as the Cherubim and Seraphim (Revealing the Abomination of Desolation, portion of mankind with no inheritance)

"Joseph" is called the Cherubim, 2 Kings 18:12-13. "Joseph" is called the Seraphim, Isiah 36:19. This kind of language began with the "Rod of Joseph/Antichrist", the same personality God would eventually use to Confirm the Covenant, in preparation for the "Events of Revelation":

MATTHEW 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
MATTHEW 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

144,000 of Reuben before the Foundation of Earth seen as 70 of Luke 3
144,000 of Benjamin during Old Testament, seen as 7th of Enoch/SEALS (walk with God)
144,000 of Joseph during Revelation, seen as "70 Weeks of Daniel 9"

1 Chronicles 5:1-2/Isiah 23:15 which divides "Reuben and Benjamin" from "Joseph". Jesus states in Matt. 18:21-22 that he does not pay for any sin for anyone that does not apply to "Joseph". This is another description of the "Unforgivable Sin" of having no applicability to Jesus for "Joseph the Blessing". (Traditioanlly, Reuben is seen as 70, Benjamin as 6000, and Joseph as the "Last Remnant from Judah", following Judges 20:15, where 20 is a reference to the 20 Generations of Gen. 5 and 11 or Rev. 9:16).

(March 8, 2016 and as a result of their continuous murder of the Antichrist, they have the sign of Jonah's Gourd (meaning nothing) ... ... ... ... March 23, 2016 they should also receive the sign of Jonah's Gourd (meaning nothing) ... ... ... ... Mayan Calendar, Nostradamus, Pyramids, and the Bible all discredit the 42 Days of "Antipas/Divorce", not just discredit, they seems to say, if March 8 producing nothing, then March 23 will produce nothing ... ... ... ... so we have understood these arguments correctly, perhaps there is more to be said about the "Unforgivable Sin of Killing Joseph's Testimony". ... ... ... ... this is about the third time I will briefly say that, that you are instructed to use a Sniper Rifle on the Antichrist in order to take down another Commercial Airliner, going to the City Hall in the City of Philadelphia after Dark tonight, that is if you really want to understand what happened to Flight 370 originally, otherwise, rest in peace, and kindly maintain the level of force until they pass away) (Nothing happens of interest until the "Three Days of Darkness", when most of human life on earth becomes deceased relatively instantly) Love and Blessings.

chrysostom
March 27th, 2016, 09:46 PM
the dome of the rock
-is
-in the holy place now

Epoisses
March 27th, 2016, 09:56 PM
The abomination of desolation will take place when the man of sin sits in the holy place of a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem which is future from our day. Daniel 9 gives the timeframe for the reconstruction of the temple and this has traditionally been seen as the reconstruction of the 2nd temple but seeing that Daniel is sealed until the time of the end it most likely points to the time when the antichrist will call for the reconstruction of the temple making the decrees issued by Darius, Cyrus and Artexerxes historically irrelevant. Daniel 9 is future from our day.

chrysostom
April 11th, 2016, 04:00 AM
the future is easy
-it can be anything you want it to be
-all you have to do is ignore history

SaulToPaul
April 11th, 2016, 06:00 AM
the future is easy
-it can be anything you want it to be
-all you have to do is ignore history

It does not fit into history.

chrysostom
May 7th, 2016, 04:47 AM
thanks for stopping by

Epoisses
May 7th, 2016, 08:00 AM
the future is easy
-it can be anything you want it to be
-all you have to do is ignore history

Historical 'fulfillments' only fit with a shoehorn.

chrysostom
June 6th, 2016, 05:26 AM
Historical 'fulfillments' only fit with a shoehorn.

only because of your interpretation doesn't always fit

SaulToPaul
June 6th, 2016, 05:45 AM
only because of your interpretation doesn't always fit

the abomination that maketh desolate

not

the abomination that stands in the place that was made desolate much earlier

popsthebuilder
June 6th, 2016, 07:09 AM
Mathew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, whoso readeth, let him understand

Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:



The abomination is authenticated when the Islamic anti-Christ declares himself as some kind of god in the Dome of the Rock or Al'Aqsa mosque. East Jerusalem is the city of seven mountains. The Dome area is Mount Moriah and at the geographical center of Jerusalem's seven mountains. From that location the man of sin will authenticate himself by making it the headquarters of their Islamic Caliphate.

The harlot definetly represents the horrific atrocities of Islamic terrorism, but seems to represent the Shia sect more. It may be that the man of sin will try to make peace between the sects, and both sects could be present there....in the Dome of the Rock complex.

The Dome area complex is an abomination in itself. It's the only city God claimed as HIs own and an Islamic 'temple now 'sits upon' it. It is 'occupied' by an Islamic shrine where Muslims believe Muhammad ascended to heaven.

Not only is that an abomination it is anti-Christ. Around the octagonal structure of the Dome of the Rock is a long classical Arabic inscription that says that God has no begotten son, thus denying that Jesus is the Son of God.

It says...
- There is no God but Allah.
- God has no son; He begetteth not.
- God taketh not unto Himself a son.
- God has no associate.
- Muhammad is the messenger of God.
- Allah will preside on Judgment Day.

Islamic prophecy teaches that Jesus (the 'Muslim jesus') will return and convert all Christians to Islam. ISIS also believes that Jesus will return to help them defeat the Islamic dajjal. Now isn't that a little strong delusion.
The only delusion I see is someone claiming Islam(the submissive towards GOD's will) are being compared to the antichrist even though they do not deny Isa (Jesus). They do not deny the second coming of the Christ or that he was without sin.

The bible says those who do not believe in the name of the Christ are of misdirection. Islam does believe in the name of Christ and his direction by the will of GOD.

The whore of Babylon is the ancient rcc in my opinion. They are responsible for the misdirection of the faithful unto GOD. They caused and cause the great neutering of man. They caused the atrocities throughout history.

The abomination of desolation will be without GOD and will wipe human life from Syria. Where the Druze are.



Not trying to offend. Just get bothered when people assume things out of fear when the Lord says to fear no thing but GOD.

Peace

Sent from my HTC Desire 512 using Tapatalk

beameup
June 6th, 2016, 08:23 AM
the re-dedication of the Temple to Zeus by Antiochus IV Epiphanes in 167 BC,

the worship of the Roman Standards on the Temple Mount under Titus in 70 AD
and
the building of the Dome of the Rock by the Umayyad Caliph Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan in 691 AD. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abomination_of_desolation)

here are the candidates

which one was Jesus referring to?

None of the above.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 (53 A.D.)

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the Temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

chrysostom
June 30th, 2016, 03:40 AM
so what is in the holy place now?

SaulToPaul
June 30th, 2016, 06:12 AM
so what is in the holy place now?

Once again,

it's the abomination that maketh desolate, not the abomination in the place made desolate long ago.

Do details matter at all?

Interplanner
June 30th, 2016, 06:44 AM
so what is in the holy place now?



He wasn't referring to any of those three, Chrys, but to the leader of the 'rebellion that desolates', an expression in Dan 8:13 that became 'objectified' as the 'abomination...' and which was to have enacted that desolation at the end of the 490 years, and did by ruining the country and the temple in the revolt against Rome. That's why Paul refers to the problem as a person...in the Temple. He used the temple as a fort, garrison, encampment.

The most interesting twist of wording you must study is 'leistes' in Luke 19:46. Not exactly on target as vocab goes, but here is why so much is involved. It is 30 or 32 AD. He has just run out the 'money-changers.' But when he does so he calls them 'leistes' for doing so.

'Leistes' were revolutionaries (although the fund-raising wing), insurrectionists, brigands, terrorists. These 'Barabbases' were already at work for Judaism to rise up against Rome in the belief that a 'messiah' would both deliver and conquer for them. They were at work in the background, but of course the main rebellion was another 40 years out. Paul spoke of the evil son as being at work already in Thess, and to look for him at the temple.

Why would Luke (who was usually just transcribing Paul) do this--use a term so many years in advance that it almost does not apply to the immediate situation? Fascinating. Roman administrators reading Luke (see the intros) would be fascinated to see the distance this creates between Jesus and Judaistic revolutionaries. (btw, in 1972 the PLO tried to use this same temple scene to say that Jesus was a revolutionary like THEM!!! LOL)

Apparently the fact of having to come with pure (kosher) money just to worship was cause enough for Jesus to criticize the wrong kind of nationalism at work in the messianic movement. Maybe the exchangers themselves actually were raising money for a revolt--siphoning off cash. Lots of interesting practical possibilities.

Ben Masada
July 3rd, 2016, 03:22 PM
Amen, most do not know where the Holy Place is.
Who knows the Holy place better than the Father?
Who is standing in the place of God?

They really care not who they put into their Holy place.

What makes the place holy is the People, the Tzadikim and not the opposite. Jerusalem, for instance, was in desolation for 70 years until the Jews returned from exile in Babylon. And this time, about two thousand years and finally, Jerusalem is holy again. Many hordes of Gentiles tried to settle in the Land but somehow the Land would reject them till we returned and the Land has welcomed us back.

chrysostom
July 25th, 2016, 09:01 PM
the dome of the rock (https://www.google.com/search?q=dome+of+the+rock&rlz=1CAASUA_enUS700US701&oq=dome+of+the+rock&aqs=chrome..69i57&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8) is in the holy place now

Interplanner
July 25th, 2016, 09:03 PM
What makes the place holy is the People, the Tzadikim and not the opposite. Jerusalem, for instance, was in desolation for 70 years until the Jews returned from exile in Babylon. And this time, about two thousand years and finally, Jerusalem is holy again. Many hordes of Gentiles tried to settle in the Land but somehow the Land would reject them till we returned and the Land has welcomed us back.


That would be the view of Judaism, but not of the letter to Hebrews.

Interplanner
July 25th, 2016, 09:06 PM
There are really only 1.5 treatments of the AofD. The whole 1 is Christ's saying that it is the person in 1st century Judea who would ruin the place. The 0.5 is Paul says the same thing in Thess material about him. The AofD is referred to as a person, yet the phrase started only a chapter earlier in Dan 8 as the 'rebellion that desolates' (a few verses later the rebellion has a leader).

If our view does not basically follow that template, we have missed what the NT says was going on.

SaulToPaul
July 26th, 2016, 05:41 AM
the dome of the rock (https://www.google.com/search?q=dome+of+the+rock&rlz=1CAASUA_enUS700US701&oq=dome+of+the+rock&aqs=chrome..69i57&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8) is in the holy place now

:chuckle:

Interplanner
July 26th, 2016, 06:26 AM
:chuckle:


That shows that the modern situation is too confusing to come anywhere close to "literal" interp.

chrysostom
August 13th, 2016, 04:28 AM
abomination of desolation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abomination_of_desolation)
-
the building of the Dome of the Rock (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abomination_of_desolation#Multiple_fulfillments) by the Umayyad Caliph Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan in 691 AD.

patrick jane
August 13th, 2016, 04:39 AM
abomination of desolation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abomination_of_desolation)

the building of the Dome of the Rock (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abomination_of_desolation#Multiple_fulfillments) by the Umayyad Caliph Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan in 691 AD.
The abomination of desolation is future

Ben Masada
August 14th, 2016, 01:45 PM
That would be the view of Judaism, but not of the letter to Hebrews.

But of course! What did you expect? The Letter to the Hebrews was written by Paul. A Letter loaded with his policy of Replacement Theology. Paul could never accept that what makes anything hole in the Land of Israel is the People, not the place itself or any other non-Jewish people.

chrysostom
September 23rd, 2016, 04:51 AM
the abomination of desolation

found three times in daniel but the first two are quite telling
you may not find this in your bible

so what is in the holy place now?
the dome of the rock

what do you think is in the holy place now?

beameup
September 23rd, 2016, 05:35 AM
so what is in the holy place now?

An archeological dig. It will yield irrefutable facts to the location.
The Temple was located in the City of David, 600 feet south of the so-called "temple mount", where Ornan the Jebusite's threshing floor was located, not far from the only natural source of water - Gihon Spring.
It's been "hiding in plain sight" for about 1,600 years now.

Hawkins
September 23rd, 2016, 07:55 AM
what do you think is in the holy place now?

It is God's earthly Church.

The spreading of God's message of salvation relies heavily on the healthiness of the Church. The Church is more like an authenticated guardian of the contents of the Bible. It greatly helps to keep the Scripture contents intact and its interpretation correct, especially the message of Salvation.

Satan knows this as well. Satan thus will try his best to disable the functionality of our Church. To be more specific, Satan's tactics is to introduce what God hates the most into our Church and legalize the abominations. If one of these abominations God hates the most becomes legal and legally practiced, the Church will thus loose its salvation capability. Thus this abomination will cause the desolation that no harvest of human souls can be done, as it's not God who is sitting in the high seat of our Church, instead it's Satan who is sitting in the high seat of our Church.

A more specific example I can think of is homosexuality. It's a candidate of such an abomination once legalized inside our Church, the Church as a whole may lose its capability to save. So when you see from inside our church (holy place) that such an abomination standing in the place it doesn't belong, causing the depopulation of souls harvested, the end then will be very near. If our Church loses its capability to save, the purpose if the existence of planet earth will also be defeated. Then the end will thus come.

Rondonmonson
September 24th, 2016, 07:28 AM
what do you think is in the holy place now?

From Daniels perspective, the Holy Place is the Temple of God. From Jesus' perspective this is the same, seeing as how he kept all the commandments. The Temple will be rebuilt, and I think scriptures say before the Day of the Lord (Malachi 4)God will send Elijah to turn Israel back to God. So the daily sacrifice that is taken away might very well be the worshiping of Jesus, we know all of Daniels decrees must be met before Jesus returns, and one is Israel turning back to God. The Abomination of Desolation is not really even understood, it actually means the False Prophet erects an Idol (Image of the Beast) into a section of the Temple. Daniel 9:27 when read in proper context means:

1. Confirm (Hebrew word gabar 1396) meaning to be strong, insolent.
2. Overspreading (kanaph 3671) meaning a wing ( a building) and edge or extremity a quarter of a building.
3. Abomination (shiqquwts 8251) meaning disgusting, filthy, idolatrous or an Idol.
4. Desolate (shamem 8074) meaning to stun, to make numb, devastate or stupefy.

So what does Daniel 9:27 actually say ? It basically says this, that this Anti-Christ will force (insolent) an agreement between himself and Israel, at the midway point in the final week of Daniels prophetic last 7 year period, he places a Filthy Idol of himself in a wing/extremity of the Temple (rebuilt Temple) and it stuns/stupefies all Israel.

Does this match anything in Revelation ? Of course it fits.

Rev. 13 says the False Prophet makes an Image of the Beast and demands all to worship this Image, or perish, and this Image is made to come to life.

The Abomination of Desolation as Jesus said, is something standing where it ought not. It is a graven image of the Beast.

chrysostom
October 6th, 2016, 05:04 AM
The Abomination of Desolation as Jesus said, is something standing where it ought not.

where did Jesus say this?

Rondonmonson
October 6th, 2016, 07:56 AM
where did Jesus say this?

In Matthew 24:14 Jesus tells us the Gospel must be preached unto all the World, then the end will come, in the very next verse he says this:

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand.

Then in verse 16 he tells them to Flee Judea when they see this.

It is an image of the Beast, an Idol, that comes to life.

Prizebeatz1
October 6th, 2016, 08:22 AM
Why wouldn't the abomination of desolation be the personality? It stands in the holy place of our hearts where God dwells posing as the true identity when it is in fact an imposter, an imitation of the soul. It displaces God and ousts our awareness of our connection to our divinity in favor of a pleasurable foundation that gives us comfort, stability and the illusion of control. We become so attached to it that we can not even conceive of ever doing without it. The result is dependence and bondage when our true nature is infinite freedom and liberation.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (https://siteowners.tapatalk.com/byo/displayAndDownloadByoApp?rid=78367)

SaulToPaul
October 6th, 2016, 08:59 AM
In Matthew 24:14 Jesus tells us the Gospel must be preached unto all the World, then the end will come, in the very next verse he says this:

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand.

Then in verse 16 he tells them to Flee Judea when they see this.

It is an image of the Beast, an Idol, that comes to life.

Indeed, it's the abomination that causes desolation ,not the abomination that stands in place already made desolate.

Details do not matter to chrys. His interest lies in promoting his harebrained schemes.

Zeke
October 6th, 2016, 09:56 AM
Yet how can this be a reference to anyplace but the only temple scripture teaches us about 1Cor 3:16 where God dwells? Acts 17:24. Which makes all those temple references in the letter symbolic, not literal, just like the other states in the Bible we go through Galatians 4:24. The old man of Romans seven is the only beast we deal with in the kingdom concerning the temple of God, all this time based dogma is egocentric, and temporal, concerning things made with hands of this worlds kingdoms that have no spiritual relevance concerning Christ within Luke 17:20-21, 15:32, like the prodigal you are still dead spiritually if you try and find the meanings any where but within you, that seed that fell from heaven, for no one ascends who hasn't descended from Heaven hid/buried in Christ before the foundation of the world.

Zeke
October 6th, 2016, 10:20 AM
The abomination of desolation is future

So where is this temple located that this abomination takes place? Might be quite a wait:Popcorn: seeing God only dwells in temples John 2:19-21 made without hands Acts 17:24, 1Cor 3:16, ETC..................,

SaulToPaul
October 6th, 2016, 10:21 AM
STP:box:Zeke

Zeke
October 6th, 2016, 10:24 AM
STP:box:Zeke

Owie.

chrysostom
October 17th, 2016, 07:14 AM
So where is this temple located that this abomination takes place?

there shall not be left one stone upon another

chrysostom
October 27th, 2016, 10:03 AM
one thing I can predict
-is-
there will not be a third temple

SaulToPaul
October 28th, 2016, 06:05 AM
one thing I can predict
-is-
there will not be a third temple

:chuckle:

Rondonmonson
October 28th, 2016, 08:06 AM
Why wouldn't the abomination of desolation be the personality? It stands in the holy place of our hearts where God dwells posing as the true identity when it is in fact an imposter, an imitation of the soul. It displaces God and ousts our awareness of our connection to our divinity in favor of a pleasurable foundation that gives us comfort, stability and the illusion of control. We become so attached to it that we can not even conceive of ever doing without it. The result is dependence and bondage when our true nature is infinite freedom and liberation.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (https://siteowners.tapatalk.com/byo/displayAndDownloadByoApp?rid=78367)

I have studied this in Depth. Follow along with my Daniel 9:27 translation via the Hebrew presentation, then lets look at Rev. chapter 13 to see if the two match up, this is astonishing.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

1.) Confirm = gabar 1396 (Hebrew Word) meaning to be strong, to prevail or to act insolently.
2.) Oblation = minchah 4503 (Hebrew) A tribute or an offering
3.) Overspreading = kanaph 3671 (Hebrew) An edge, a Wing or Quarter (of a building) a pinnacle.
4.) Abominations = shiqquwts 8251 (Hebrew) Meaning, Disgusting, Filthy, Idolatrous or AN IDOL !!
5.) Desolate = shamem 8074 (Hebrew) Meaning to Stun, Grown Numb, to Stupefy, or to Devastate !!

So looking at these original Hebrew word Translations, what is this verse (Daniel 9:27) really telling us? Does it match up with other end time events ? Lets delve into it !! Basically this is what I get from verse Daniel 9:27.

Daniel 9:27 The Anti-Christ will FORCE and Agreement (Covenant means agreement) on Israel and others, probably the Muslims. {The ONE WEEK is from Daniels perspective because he knows God is going to end this Age after 7 Years. And he knows in the middle of this 7 years the Anti-Christ will break this agreement and betray all, including Israel. LETS CARRY ON.} He does so Insolently, his agenda Prevails, he forces this deal. Then after 3 1/2 years he stops allowing the Oblation or Tribute, (I think to Jesus, who Israel accepts as their Messiah before the Day of the Lord as it says in Malachi 4:5-6) by Israel unto their God. Then the False Prophet places an IDOL in a Wing or a pinnacle of the TEMPLE and demands all people to worship this IDOL or else they must die. THIS STUNS/SHOCKS OR DEVASTATES Israel, then they heed Jesus' words, they Flee unto the Wilderness where they are protected by God for 1260 Days, because Elijah turned them back to the Messiah (Zechariah 12:10) before the Day of the Lord.

Daniel 9:27 shorter version/interpretation........The Anti-Christ will force a Peace Deal on Israel, in the Middle of this deal he will renege on is deal, and order the False Prophet to place an Image of the Beast (IDOL) in the Temple, and demand all mankind to worship this Image. This Stuns and devastates Israel.

Do further scriptures agree with this account ?

Revelation 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Daniel 9:27, when translated properly, shows the same thing as Revelation 13, people will be made to Worship an Image of the Beast or Perish !!

Amen, we getting these facts straight out of the Bible.


IT MATCHES !!! To a tee !!!

chrysostom
November 5th, 2016, 05:43 AM
the abomination of desolation

found three times in daniel but the first two are quite telling
you may not find this in your bible

so what is in the holy place now?
the dome of the rock
and
it causes desolation
it is preventing the third temple
put there by the second beast of the apocalypse
the fourth beast of daniel
different from all the rest

here are the clues
what happened to the temple place?

Matthew 24:15New International Version (NIV)

15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—


Daniel 9:27New International Version (NIV)

27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’[a] In the middle of the ‘seven’[b] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple[c] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.[d]”[e]

Antiochus IV Epiphanes in 167 BC

the second beast of daniel

here there is a temple to desecrate and this temple was destroyed later by the third beast of daniel, the roman empire

Daniel 11:31New International Version (NIV)

31 “His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.

the Dome of the Rock by the Umayyad Caliph Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan in 691 AD

the fourth beast of daniel

there is no temple here

only the temple fortress or the holy place and this is the abomination referred to by Jesus

once this premise is established it is easy to show that the last two beasts of daniel are the two beasts of the apocalypse

the niv translation does it better

George Affleck
November 5th, 2016, 09:42 PM
I have not been following lately (so I really shouldn't ask)

But has anyone said the abomination of desolation was the Roman army in 70 A.D.?

If not, put me down for that. Thanks.

Ben Masada
November 6th, 2016, 02:33 AM
I have not been following lately (so I really shouldn't ask)

But has anyone said the abomination of desolation was the Roman army in 70 A.D.?

If not, put me down for that. Thanks.

Okay, so you are down. As I am concerned, the abomination of desolation was the statue of Zeus settled in the Holy of Holies by Antiocus IV just prior to the war of the Maccabees against the Greeks. Since that's gone, my modern opinion of the abomination of desolation is the Muslim temple in the middle of our Temple Mount preventing us from ever rebuilding our own Temple in its former place.

Ben Masada
November 6th, 2016, 02:43 AM
one thing I can predict
-is-
there will not be a third temple

Since the Levites are planning to bring the sacrifices back with the rebuilding of our Temple, we are better off without rebuilding our Temple. Why? Because, according to Jeremiah 7:22, the Lord never commanded that sacrifices be part of the religion of Israel. In fact, does the Lord delight in burn offerings and sacrifices as much as in obedience to the Lord's command? Surely, obedience is better than sacrifices; compliance than the fat of rams. (I Samuel 15:22)

Ben Masada
November 6th, 2016, 02:56 AM
Yet how can this be a reference to anyplace but the only temple scripture teaches us about 1Cor 3:16 where God dwells? Acts 17:24. Which makes all those temple references in the letter symbolic, not literal, just like the other states in the Bible we go through Galatians 4:24. The old man of Romans seven is the only beast we deal with in the kingdom concerning the temple of God, all this time based dogma is egocentric, and temporal, concerning things made with hands of this worlds kingdoms that have no spiritual relevance concerning Christ within Luke 17:20-21, 15:32, like the prodigal you are still dead spiritually if you try and find the meanings any where but within you, that seed that fell from heaven, for no one ascends who hasn't descended from Heaven hid/buried in Christ before the foundation of the world.

Just before the foundation of the world, the Lord said, "Let there be light." Since Isaiah said that Israel had
been assigned as light unto the nations (Isaiah 42:6) and Jesus said that the Jews were the light of the world, (Mat. 5:14) it is only obvious that, the "Let there be light" of Genesis 1:3 was the first prophecy for the rising of Israel from the loins of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the near future. Another evidence were the Essenes who referred to Israel as the children of light and to the Gentiles as the children of darkness. Hence, "Let there be light" because the world was in darkness

Zeke
November 8th, 2016, 08:08 AM
Just before the foundation of the world, the Lord said, "Let there be light." Since Isaiah said that Israel had
been assigned as light unto the nations (Isaiah 42:6) and Jesus said that the Jews were the light of the world, (Mat. 5:14) it is only obvious that, the "Let there be light" of Genesis 1:3 was the first prophecy for the rising of Israel from the loins of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the near future. Another evidence were the Essenes who referred to Israel as the children of light and to the Gentiles as the children of darkness. Hence, "Let there be light" because the world was in darkness

Israel/IS RA EL isn't an ethnic race according to flesh and blood genetics its light, It's a state of being that has no past or future nor does it cling to the shadows and types of the letter that fall to the ground and die when extroverted into secular history Romans 4:16-25 Luke 17:20-21 told in allegory, these people never really existed and are symbolic tales of what takes place within our own Kingdom. The only Kingdom is within you're own conscience where thoughts/seeds germinate into mortal or immortal awareness Galatians 4:24, Phil 2:5-7.

Interplanner
November 8th, 2016, 08:20 AM
Israel/IS RA EL isn't an ethnic race according to flesh and blood genetics its light, It's a state of being that has no past or future nor does it cling to the shadows and types of the letter that fall to the ground and die when extroverted into secular history Romans 4:16-25 Luke 17:20-21 told in allegory, these people never really existed and are symbolic tales of what takes place within our own Kingdom. The only Kingdom is within you're own conscience where thoughts/seeds germinate into mortal or immortal awareness Galatians 4:24, Phil 2:5-7.



"Never existed"? lol. But the advanced meaning in Christian theology is what matters. Those who have faith in Christ are the Seed of Abraham, for sure. Because He was the Seed. Gal 3.

chrysostom
November 22nd, 2016, 05:25 AM
what do you think is in the holy place now?

SaulToPaul
November 22nd, 2016, 08:19 AM
what do you think is in the holy place now?

The abomination that MAKETH desolate, not the abomination that sits in the place that was made desolate.

Words matter.

Details matter.

You can't ignore them just to promote your own scheme and attract a cult following.

chrysostom
December 6th, 2016, 05:36 AM
The abomination that MAKETH desolate, not the abomination that sits in the place that was made desolate.

Words matter.

Details matter.

You can't ignore them just to promote your own scheme and attract a cult following.

please answer the question
-
what do you think is in the holy place now?

SaulToPaul
December 6th, 2016, 07:30 AM
please answer the question
-
what do you think is in the holy place now?

The abomination that MAKETH desolate, not the abomination that sits in the place that was made desolate.

Words matter.

Details matter.

chrysostom
December 15th, 2016, 05:59 AM
The abomination that MAKETH desolate, not the abomination that sits in the place that was made desolate.

Words matter.

Details matter.

what is the holy place?

Ben Masada
December 15th, 2016, 09:25 AM
Israel/IS RA EL isn't an ethnic race according to flesh and blood genetics its light, It's a state of being that has no past or future nor does it cling to the shadows and types of the letter that fall to the ground and die when extroverted into secular history Romans 4:16-25 Luke 17:20-21 told in allegory, these people never really existed and are symbolic tales of what takes place within our own Kingdom. The only Kingdom is within you're own conscience where thoughts/seeds germinate into mortal or immortal awareness Galatians 4:24, Phil 2:5-7.

The only thing Israel is symbolic of is light. But Israel is real and the world would not be without Israel. Israel is the light of the world as Jesus said (Mat 5:14) Yes, the light unto the Gentiles as Isaiah said.(Isaiah 42:6)

Ben Masada
December 15th, 2016, 09:32 AM
what do you think is in the holy place now?

The abomination of desolation. Why is it taking so long for us to get rid of it?
The fact is that we seem to be still in exile.

Evil.Eye.<(I)>
December 15th, 2016, 11:32 AM
what is the holy place?

I'll bite.

Two temples that belong to a cross hating conglomerate that used to be the largest empire ever, until WW1.

The founder of the group of people that made these temples created a people that ultimately toppled the Military Popes seat in Constantinople, and were previously at war with the Holy Roman Empire. We know these wars as "the crusades".

Though Ithe Vatican exists, the Holy Roman Empire fell that day.

Only the spiritual hand of Holy Rome remains.

The owners of those two temples have raped, beheaded, blown up, dismembered, crucified, tortured and performed many other horrible acts in the name of expanding the heart of this empire that stretched across the regions of all previous biblical empires.

This empire worships a god that is foreign to their fathers and venerate this god as the true god of Moses and Abraham, while simultaneously claiming that the descendants of Ishmael are their roots and the true people of "god".

This empire is now religious and it is literally waring against the entire globe, while desiring to change laws and reward people for bowing to their god and venerating their prophet as the final word.

They deny that Jesus is God's son in their holy book and in fact call it blasphemy to believe so in plain verbiage of their sacred text.

This empire is reforming and it is specifically quoted time after time as desiring to fully eliminate Israel, all Jews and Christians, and anyone who denies their way.

They behead people for not saying:

Allah is the greatest and Mohammad is his final prophet.

Were you referring to those two structures that have no true meaning to them except to disgrace the Temple Mount and attempt to stomp out true biblical history?

: )

SaulToPaul
December 15th, 2016, 12:34 PM
what is the holy place?

Where was the burning bush?

It is still the abomination that MAKETH desolate, not the abomination that stands there after it's made desolate.

Evil.Eye.<(I)>
December 15th, 2016, 12:40 PM
Where was the burning bush?

It is still the abomination that MAKETH desolate, not the abomination that stands there after it's made desolate.

I thought those scales fell off your eyes. Are you sure that you're not still stumbling around Damascus?

# PaulToSaul

SaulToPaul
December 15th, 2016, 12:52 PM
I thought those scales fell off your eyes. Are you sure that your not still stumbling around Damascus?

# PaulToSaul

:chuckle:

Evil.Eye.<(I)>
December 16th, 2016, 01:45 AM
:chuckle:

# SaulToPaul has a healthy sense of humor # Thumbs Up

chrysostom
December 16th, 2016, 05:22 AM
Were you referring to those two structures that have no true meaning to them except to disgrace the Temple Mount and attempt to stomp out true biblical history?

: )
just the one

Evil.Eye.<(I)>
December 16th, 2016, 03:46 PM
# SaulToPaul has a healthy sense of humor # Thumbs Up

Fair enough. Perhaps there are two there to drive the point home. 😀

chrysostom
December 29th, 2016, 03:28 AM
the dome of the rock is in the holy place now

SaulToPaul
December 29th, 2016, 07:32 AM
the dome of the rock is in the holy place now

The abomination that MAKETH DESOLATE, not the abomination that lays in the place already made desolate.

Details destroy your harebrained schemes...

chrysostom
January 12th, 2017, 04:14 AM
The abomination that MAKETH DESOLATE, not the abomination that lays in the place already made desolate.

Details destroy your harebrained schemes...

what is preventing the third temple?

Ben Masada
January 12th, 2017, 09:33 AM
the dome of the rock is in the holy place now

That's our modern abomination of desolation alright. Unfortunately, I think it will take more than "Go Magog" to clear it out of there.

chrysostom
January 12th, 2017, 10:47 AM
That's our modern abomination of desolation alright. Unfortunately, I think it will take more than "Go Magog" to clear it out of there.

modern? -
it has been there a long time

chrysostom
January 31st, 2017, 04:16 AM
the dome of the rock is preventing the third temple
-
the dome of the rock is preventing the daily sacrifice

SaulToPaul
January 31st, 2017, 07:26 AM
the dome of the rock is preventing the third temple
-
the dome of the rock is preventing the daily sacrifice

The dome did not "cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease".
Details matter.

Rondonmonson
January 31st, 2017, 04:45 PM
The dome did not "cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease".
Details matter.

I explained to him in POST #108 what the Abomination of Desolation is and to a lesser degree the LOGICAL TIMING of the event. I have recently taken an in depth look at the timing of the Abomination of Desolation so as to leave no doubt about the time of the AoD being an End Time Event:

Guy on another site asked me to "PROVE" that the Abomination of Desolation did not happen in 70 AD


The Abomination of Desolation CAN NOT be an event that happened in AD 70, and it can only be a End Time Event, and I can prove it via Scriptures, and I am sure I have proved it to you before.

Daniel 11:45 and Daniel 12:1-2......Mathew Chapter 24.......and Revelation chapter 12 all come together to prove the Abomination of Desolation has to be an END TIME EVENT.

Daniel 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him. {This is the Abomination of Desolation here}

12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

{ Moving Fast Here......You see the Anti-Christ makes his abode in the Holy City in 11:45, then Micheal STANDS UP (Rev. 12) and at this time, AT THIS TIME, there will be a Time of Trouble like never before. Now look at verse 2, at about the same time, just before actually (Rapture) we see that those that sleep ARISE some to everlasting Life. So this TIME OF TROUBLE happens at the exact time of the Rapture, so it has to be an END TIME EVENT !! }

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, {whoso readeth, let him understand} 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

{ Now please tell me you don't think the world ended in 70 AD !! Because the Holy Bible says those DAYS WILL BE SHORTENED else all Flesh will be destroyed. This is the EXACT SAME TIME (TROUBLES) as Daniel was speaking of, thus Jesus refers us to Daniel the Prophet. The Gospel must be preached unto all the world, then the END (TIMES) will come, thus when the Abomination of Desolation happens the Jews are to FLEE Judea, and they are told later in the chapter not to go out unto any False Prophets (where they wouldn't be protected) in the Desert or in Secret Chambers, and Jesus tells them to look for his COMING IN THE EASTERN SKIES !! Sounds like an END TIME EVENT doesn't it ? BECAUSE IT IS !! There is no doubt about it.}

Revelation 12:6 And the woman(Israel) fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; (Michael Stands Up)and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

{ This is VERY EASY to understand. All three passages correlate. Rev. 12 shows Israel Fleeing into the WILDERNESS at the exact time that Michael stands up and Kicks Satan out of Heaven. He comes down with GREAT WRATH, tries to get at Israel, but she is protected by God, thus he turns his anger to the REMNANT (Small part that's left) of her SEED (Jesus was the Seed) that keep the commandments of Jesus. As we see in Daniel, the Rapture happens at this time (actually just before, the Old Testament Prophets were never told in depth about the Rapture) as Daniel 12:2 says, so it CAN NOT BE 70 AD.........!!! Can not be 70 AD. The Time of Trouble in Daniel and Matthew are speaking bout the exact same time, and Jesus says the Abomination happens at this time. So its an END TIME EVENT, no matter how much people want it to be an AD 70 Event, it is not, and never could have been. Also, we see that Jesus says IF THOSE DAYS WERE NOT SHORTENED NO FLESH WOULD BE SAVED......Again, it is NOT A 70 AD Event !!! }

Epoisses
January 31st, 2017, 05:38 PM
The abomination of desolation is an end-time event. If I had to speculate - it might be something like the man of sin recovering the ark of the covenant and marching it into the most holy of a rebuilt temple where he sits on top in a throne of light and declares himself to be God. Then he commands everyone to worship the Jews and the law and puts everyone else to death. Just speculating.

chrysostom
March 8th, 2017, 05:47 AM
so here is the exercise
if
you choose to accept it

using biblegateway

search for the word abomination and there will be three hits in daniel

9:27, 11:31, and 12:11

look at the first two in all english translations

it is easy to do, just click on any single passage and look at the bottom of the page for it in all english translations



now, can you tell if they refer to the temple or the temple place
this is not easy



now search

he shall
and
they shall

now it is easy



he is the Antiochus IV Epiphanes
the second beast of daniel

they are the second beast of the apocalype
the fourth beast of daniel

here are some details

SaulToPaul
March 8th, 2017, 07:42 AM
here are some details

The abomination that maketh desolate, not the abomination that stands in the place already made desolate 2000 years ago.

Details matter.

chrysostom
April 4th, 2017, 03:19 AM
The abomination that maketh desolate, not the abomination that stands in the place already made desolate 2000 years ago.

Details matter.

(whoso readeth, let him understand:)

SaulToPaul
April 4th, 2017, 06:57 AM
(whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Thanks for watching.

Zeke
April 4th, 2017, 09:43 AM
will the real temple being symbolized in a mystery please give us some clues 1Cor 3:16.

chrysostom
May 12th, 2017, 06:06 AM
will the real temple being symbolized in a mystery please give us some clues 1Cor 3:16.

let them understand -
sometimes a temple is a temple

Interplanner
May 12th, 2017, 07:03 AM
(whoso readeth, let him understand:)




STP is notorious for fracturing coherent pictures. There was just one; it was the figure in Dan 8 who leads the 'rebellion that desolates' in ch 9, which was the only reference Christ made about it and it took place in that generation as he said. That was also the rabbinic/priestly understanding of Dan 9, as Josephus says.

Ie, STP does not focus on enough detail--unless it supports a separated theology system running two shows at once.

SaulToPaul
May 12th, 2017, 08:28 AM
STP is notorious for fracturing coherent pictures. There was just one; it was the figure in Dan 8 who leads the 'rebellion that desolates' in ch 9, which was the only reference Christ made about it and it took place in that generation as he said. That was also the rabbinic/priestly understanding of Dan 9, as Josephus says.

Ie, STP does not focus on enough detail--unless it supports a separated theology system running two shows at once.

Made up. The man of sin did not stand in the Holy Place and declare to be God, causing the sacrifice and oblation to cease. This is the abomination of desolation, and it has yet to occur.

Zeke
May 17th, 2017, 12:55 PM
Luke 17:20-21 is the temple that these things takes place in, literal stones and buildings made with hands has never been God's dwelling place Acts 17:24, 1Cor 3:16, you must experience it the world is on repeat nothing new under the sun.

chrysostom
June 9th, 2017, 03:03 AM
The man of sin did not stand in the Holy Place

why do you think this is the abomination?

SaulToPaul
June 9th, 2017, 05:42 AM
why do you think this is the abomination?

It is what scripture says it is. Man of sin erects an image in the temple, and demands to be worshiped as God.
Open and shut case.

chrysostom
July 17th, 2017, 03:42 AM
It is what scripture says it is. Man of sin erects an image in the temple, and demands to be worshiped as God.
Open and shut case.

can you show me where it says that?

SaulToPaul
July 17th, 2017, 02:40 PM
can you show me where it says that?

Compare Daniel with 1 and 2 Thess, and the Revelation.
Bible Study. Believe what you read, take God at face value.

chrysostom
August 17th, 2017, 04:35 AM
the abomination of desolation

found three times in daniel but the first two are quite telling
you may not find this in your bible

so what is in the holy place now?
the dome of the rock
and
it causes desolation
it is preventing the third temple
put there by the second beast of the apocalypse
the fourth beast of daniel
different from all the rest

here are the clues
what happened to the temple place?

Matthew 24:15New International Version (NIV)

15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—


Daniel 9:27New International Version (NIV)

27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’[a] In the middle of the ‘seven’[b] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple[c] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.[d]”[e]

Antiochus IV Epiphanes in 167 BC

the second beast of daniel

here there is a temple to desecrate and this temple was destroyed later by the third beast of daniel, the roman empire

Daniel 11:31New International Version (NIV)

31 “His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.

the Dome of the Rock by the Umayyad Caliph Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan in 691 AD

the fourth beast of daniel

there is no temple here

only the temple fortress or the holy place and this is the abomination referred to by Jesus

once this premise is established it is easy to show that the last two beasts of daniel are the two beasts of the apocalypse

back to the apocalypse (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?102616-the-apocalypse&highlight=)

so what is in the holy place now?

chrysostom
September 13th, 2017, 04:46 AM
a place
is
a place

Interplanner
September 13th, 2017, 07:06 AM
The Mt24A passage is not futurist. Neither is its earlier parallel Mk 13. Those passages are about 1st century Judea. Check all the details for that. At Mt24:29, it goes future and worldwide, and is expected, originally, to be right after the horrible time in Judea.

However, an allowance is made that the final day of worldwide judgement may be later, and we know it was.

The future worldwide day of judgement has no Judean detail to it; it would make no sense to.

The expression AofD started as the rebellion that desolates in Dan 8:13, a rebellion that would take place during the 4th kingdom that overran Israel, mentioned later in ch 8 and 9.

Christ was speaking of a person. Let the reader understand that. It would not be an image placed by an outside party. it would the the noxious actions of the rebellion and its leader; he would be found setting up in the temple and would ruin the country. There are events in the Great Revolt of 66-72 that follow this close enough.

Luke (Paul's) was written last, latest. When he comes close to this, it is no longer about watching for a person, but watching out for the city to be encircled. The Romans did encircle of course as part of their siege works, and this is certainly what is meant in 19:43, which passage is full of expressions from the first destruction of Jerusalem, but updated with Roman military vocabulary, making it unmistakable. However, we should note that Festus sought to protectively encircle Jerusalem even before that, but died during the constsruction and it was stopped and used against the city, once the zealot rebellion had overrun it. Festus, Agrippa and Bernice were interested in preserving the city as members of Judaism, and tried to stop the zealots.

There is also an account (in Josephus' JEWISH WAR) of Bernice making a direct appeal to a particularly horrible Roman figure, Florus, because he was agitating the rebellious zealots and trying to get them to fight.

So I think Festus effort to protect the city is signal enough for Christians to leave the city. Some stayed and were miraculously able to escape when the surrounding by Roman siege was interrupted a couple years later.

But Christ's remarks about how the zealots/Judaizers would ruin the city are not directed at Roman admins; they are all directed at the zealots; 'leistes' in Lk 19:46 is not a common thief; it is a terrorist, an insurgent. Part of this was to show in Luke-Acts that Paul was not part of any such rebellion at all.

Many, many passages in Paul refer to the 2nd coming in judgement being right round the corner. I don't know when 2 Peter was written but it appears to deal with this difficulty ('where is the coming?' 'some things in Paul's letters are hard to understand'). Once 72 went by and the world continued on, only the basic instruction to keep proclaiming Christ as Lord to all men, and his eventual return in judgement is clear.

George Affleck
September 14th, 2017, 09:25 PM
I agree entirely that what Jesus is talking about are the events to take place in Judea leading up to and during the impending destruction of the holy city in AD 70.

So how do you reconcile that the parallel passages of Matt 24:15KJV and Luke 21:20KJV which, taken together, identify a standing army as the abomination that makes desolate spoken of by Daniel? That army was the Roman army that compassed Jerusalem and finally stood "where it ought not"; in the temple.

There seems to be no question that Jesus' very words identify the AofD prophesied by Daniel.

SaulToPaul
September 15th, 2017, 04:16 AM
The Mt24A passage is not futurist. Neither is its earlier parallel Mk 13. Those passages are about 1st century Judea. Check all the details for that. At Mt24:29, it goes future and worldwide, and is expected, originally, to be right after the horrible time in Judea.

However, an allowance is made that the final day of worldwide judgement may be later, and we know it was.

The future worldwide day of judgement has no Judean detail to it; it would make no sense to.

The expression AofD started as the rebellion that desolates in Dan 8:13, a rebellion that would take place during the 4th kingdom that overran Israel, mentioned later in ch 8 and 9.

Christ was speaking of a person. Let the reader understand that. It would not be an image placed by an outside party. it would the the noxious actions of the rebellion and its leader; he would be found setting up in the temple and would ruin the country. There are events in the Great Revolt of 66-72 that follow this close enough.

Luke (Paul's) was written last, latest. When he comes close to this, it is no longer about watching for a person, but watching out for the city to be encircled. The Romans did encircle of course as part of their siege works, and this is certainly what is meant in 19:43, which passage is full of expressions from the first destruction of Jerusalem, but updated with Roman military vocabulary, making it unmistakable. However, we should note that Festus sought to protectively encircle Jerusalem even before that, but died during the constsruction and it was stopped and used against the city, once the zealot rebellion had overrun it. Festus, Agrippa and Bernice were interested in preserving the city as members of Judaism, and tried to stop the zealots.

There is also an account (in Josephus' JEWISH WAR) of Bernice making a direct appeal to a particularly horrible Roman figure, Florus, because he was agitating the rebellious zealots and trying to get them to fight.

So I think Festus effort to protect the city is signal enough for Christians to leave the city. Some stayed and were miraculously able to escape when the surrounding by Roman siege was interrupted a couple years later.

But Christ's remarks about how the zealots/Judaizers would ruin the city are not directed at Roman admins; they are all directed at the zealots; 'leistes' in Lk 19:46 is not a common thief; it is a terrorist, an insurgent. Part of this was to show in Luke-Acts that Paul was not part of any such rebellion at all.

Many, many passages in Paul refer to the 2nd coming in judgement being right round the corner. I don't know when 2 Peter was written but it appears to deal with this difficulty ('where is the coming?' 'some things in Paul's letters are hard to understand'). Once 72 went by and the world continued on, only the basic instruction to keep proclaiming Christ as Lord to all men, and his eventual return in judgement is clear.

All made up. Why?

Zeke
September 15th, 2017, 08:47 AM
I agree entirely that what Jesus is talking about are the events to take place in Judea leading up to and during the impending destruction of the holy city in AD 70.

So how do you reconcile that the parallel passages of Matt 24:15KJV and Luke 21:20KJV which, taken together, identify a standing army as the abomination that makes desolate spoken of by Daniel? That army was the Roman army that compassed Jerusalem and finally stood "where it ought not"; in the temple.

There seems to be no question that Jesus' very words identify the AofD prophesied by Daniel.

Holy city? its metaphoric symbolism that takes place in the only temple I AM dwells in which is in us 1Cor 3:16 Acts 17:24. Traditions of men made with hands who invented God under the time deception that doesn't even exist in the eternal.

Zeke
September 15th, 2017, 08:59 AM
so what is in the holy place now?

The mind partaking of the tree of good and evil a duality that intellectualizes instead of taking no thought about tomorrow, these things are symbolic Galatians 4:24.

Zeke
September 15th, 2017, 09:11 AM
What grows on the ground that is the concerned with this world? Matt 13:22, John 18:36, Matt 4:16-17. Looking in darkness/time which is this world/OZ is futile concerning something that is already here.

Rondonmonson
September 15th, 2017, 09:21 AM
The Mt24A passage is not futurist. Neither is its earlier parallel Mk 13. Those passages are about 1st century Judea. Check all the details for that. At Mt24:29, it goes future and worldwide, and is expected, originally, to be right after the horrible time in Judea.

However, an allowance is made that the final day of worldwide judgement may be later, and we know it was.

The future worldwide day of judgement has no Judean detail to it; it would make no sense to.

The expression AofD started as the rebellion that desolates in Dan 8:13, a rebellion that would take place during the 4th kingdom that overran Israel, mentioned later in ch 8 and 9.

Christ was speaking of a person. Let the reader understand that. It would not be an image placed by an outside party. it would the the noxious actions of the rebellion and its leader; he would be found setting up in the temple and would ruin the country. There are events in the Great Revolt of 66-72 that follow this close enough.

Luke (Paul's) was written last, latest. When he comes close to this, it is no longer about watching for a person, but watching out for the city to be encircled. The Romans did encircle of course as part of their siege works, and this is certainly what is meant in 19:43, which passage is full of expressions from the first destruction of Jerusalem, but updated with Roman military vocabulary, making it unmistakable. However, we should note that Festus sought to protectively encircle Jerusalem even before that, but died during the constsruction and it was stopped and used against the city, once the zealot rebellion had overrun it. Festus, Agrippa and Bernice were interested in preserving the city as members of Judaism, and tried to stop the zealots.

There is also an account (in Josephus' JEWISH WAR) of Bernice making a direct appeal to a particularly horrible Roman figure, Florus, because he was agitating the rebellious zealots and trying to get them to fight.

So I think Festus effort to protect the city is signal enough for Christians to leave the city. Some stayed and were miraculously able to escape when the surrounding by Roman siege was interrupted a couple years later.

But Christ's remarks about how the zealots/Judaizers would ruin the city are not directed at Roman admins; they are all directed at the zealots; 'leistes' in Lk 19:46 is not a common thief; it is a terrorist, an insurgent. Part of this was to show in Luke-Acts that Paul was not part of any such rebellion at all.

Many, many passages in Paul refer to the 2nd coming in judgement being right round the corner. I don't know when 2 Peter was written but it appears to deal with this difficulty ('where is the coming?' 'some things in Paul's letters are hard to understand'). Once 72 went by and the world continued on, only the basic instruction to keep proclaiming Christ as Lord to all men, and his eventual return in judgement is clear.

Post 137 explains in detail why the AoD is a future event and can be nothing else but.

George Affleck
September 15th, 2017, 05:52 PM
Post 137 explains in detail why the AoD is a future event and can be nothing else but.

No it doesn't.
It explains only your misinterpretation based on a system you have decided to adhere to.

Jesus tells us plainly that the AofD is the Roman army.
You will have to decide if you will choose to believe Him or be led away from the truth by your preconceptions.

Rondonmonson
September 17th, 2017, 12:39 AM
No it doesn't.
It explains only your misinterpretation based on a system you have decided to adhere to.

Jesus tells us plainly that the AofD is the Roman army.
You will have to decide if you will choose to believe Him or be led away from the truth by your preconceptions.

Jesus tells us that this will happen during the END TIMES and if God did not shorten the Events NO FLESH would be saved. Daniel 12:1-2 tells us about these SAME TROUBLES and it shows the Rapture happens at the same time as the Troubles.

Daniel 12:12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, {whoso readeth, let him understand } 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out,.......

The better question is how can anyone not see the obvious? Now I understand why Jesus said seeing they see not, hearing they hear not. I just do not get how anyone can look at those three passages and not understand the Abomination of Desolation is an END TIME EVENT !! Its astonishing.

Rev. 12 the Woman (Israel flees) flees for 1260 days when the Beast takes over Jerusalem. We see that Jesus said this would be a time of trouble like never seen before, and he was quoting Daniel, and the time of trouble in Daniel happens when Micheal stands up, and the Rapture happens in verse 2, its the same as Rev. 12, Michael casts Satan out of Heaven.

Jesus stated that if he did not shorten the time no flesh would be saved. That clearly did not happen 2000 years ago. He also gave you a clue to what would happen IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation of those days, he would return, so your timing is proven wrong by Jesus' own words, by 2000 years.

George Affleck
September 17th, 2017, 08:01 AM
The better question is how can anyone not see the obvious? Now I understand why Jesus said seeing they see not, hearing they hear not. I just do not get how anyone can look at those three passages and not understand the Abomination of Desolation is an END TIME EVENT !! Its astonishing.



There is no question that the appearance of the abomination of desolation was an event to occur during the times of the end. The question is - what end is pictured?

If we allow God to speak for Himself, we find that the end that the apostles were told about and finally understood was the end of the age, the Jewish economy, the sacrifices, the trappings, legalism, the Shekinah glory abiding in the temple, and everything that accompanied the types and shadows that spoke of the New Covenant in Christ's blood.

1 Cor 10:11KJV, 1 John 2:18KJV, 1 Pet 1:20KJV, 1 Pet 4:7KJV

It's so easy to have a narcissistic view of Scripture; that is, interpreting with our eyes and from current events. I am convinced this is why many tend not to allow the Bible to interpret itself. There are many STOP/YIELD signs in God's Word that often go unheeded.

One example is that God devotes all of Acts 2 to telling us that the gospel was preached for a witness to representatives out of every nation under heaven. This is a fulfilled prophecy of Jesus from Matthew 24. Yet many assume that this is still future; simply because they do not consider the whole counsel of God.

Interplanner
September 17th, 2017, 09:28 AM
Further to Ronmon in above post:
The NT is loaded with indicators that that generation was to be the last, the end of the world. Everything I find about the upheaval in Judea in the 1st century says that the end and final judgement were expected 'right after' it (the turmoil in Israel).

Even while speaking to people about marriage 4 countries away, in Corinth, Paul says the time is short, don't bother, pursue the mission.

Even so, there are many things going on today are nerve wracking enough to feel like it is the end, and then we learn that people have felt this way hundreds of times since Christ, for solid reason.

George Affleck
September 17th, 2017, 12:58 PM
Another misunderstanding of Jesus' words in Matthew 24 concerns the mention of the sun, moon and stars. Certainly the sun being darkened and the moon not giving its light, and the stars falling from heaven would make us think of a cataclysmic event in our solar system. But when all of Scripture is brought to bear on its interpretation, we see the real meaning.

Jesus was borrowing from the language of the prophets the words necessary to convey the idea of the impending judgement about to befall Jerusalem and the entire Jewish system. It was time to make way for the Kingdom of God to spread around the world. This necessitated the elimination of the old system and God chose the heathen might of the Roman Empire to accomplish His purpose.

Isaiah predicted the fall of Babylon at the hands of the Medes and Persians with exactly the same language. Is 13:10KJV.
Egypt was overthrown by Nebechadnezzar and Ezekiel prophesied it. Eze 32:7KJV

It is not surprising that this language is used often by the prophets. It was probably Joseph whose dream embedded in the Jewish culture the idea of Jacob (the sun), his wife (the moon), his eleven brothers (the stars) as representative of the nation. Indeed, it did become the nation of Israel under God.

Jesus uses the same metaphors that his listeners would understand, if they were biblicists, in explaining what was to befall Jerusalem.

But this leads into the next problem of this being the greatest tribulation ever to be witnessed in the world. Was there never greater loss of life or greater hardships in history? Even if we forget about the millions who died and the atrocities described by Josephus, what made this the greatest of all tribulations was that God judged His own people. That can never be repeated.

Rondonmonson
September 19th, 2017, 11:50 AM
Further to Ronmon in above post:
The NT is loaded with indicators that that generation was to be the last, the end of the world. Everything I find about the upheaval in Judea in the 1st century says that the end and final judgement were expected 'right after' it (the turmoil in Israel).

Even while speaking to people about marriage 4 countries away, in Corinth, Paul says the time is short, don't bother, pursue the mission.

Even so, there are many things going on today are nerve wracking enough to feel like it is the end, and then we learn that people have felt this way hundreds of times since Christ, for solid reason.

Matthew 24 does no such thing, you have just misunderstood Matthew 24, I have done a full Exegesis of Matthew 24 and there is a reason why Jesus mentions false chrits/false prophets and false christs and false prophets three distinct time . But for starters you suggesting "THE END" happened 2000 years ago because you can't understand the parable of the Fig Tree is a statement of why people today do not understand the scriptures.

The Fig Tree shows the SIGN of when Summer is NEAR...Jesus says LIKEWISE when YE (As in my Followers, not just the Disciples)see ALL OF THESE SIGNS, know ye that my coming is NEAR AT HAND. So what were the Signs? Why is this so hard to understand since Jesus points out about 12 signs in Matthew 24.

Matthew 24:1-6 is the period between when Jesus spoke that day, and A.D. 70. There are a few keys if we lay our pride down and see it as Jesus presents it. So Jesus starts out by telling the Disciples about the future of the Temples destruction, then they wanted to know about "those things" the "SIGN of his Coming" and the End if the World.

Jesus answered them of course, his first warning was take heed that NO MAN Deceive you. Many will come in MY NAME (as the Christ/Messiah) and WILL DECEIVE MANY........And you will hear of Wars and Rumors of Wars, but do not be Troubled, for THE END IS NOT YET..........This Ends at 70 AD. How/Why do I know this? WATCH

Jesus specifically tells them the End is not YET !! He had just told them many will come in my name, and deceive many, then Jesus said you will hear of WARS and Rumors of Wars, speaking unto his Disciples.

This couldn't be clearer, the Disciples would think this is the coming END, if Jesus had not of warned them THIS IS NOT THE END, so what event was happening? Jerusalem and the Temple was being Destroyed/sacked and that is basically what happens in the End Times, and the Messiah (Jesus) is supposed to save Israel. The Pharisees and Jewish leaders knew that Rome was the Fourth Beast so they were looking for the Soon to come Little Horn, not realizing he shows up 2000 years later, thus they tried to FORCE MESSIAHS onto the scene at that time, fulfilling Jesus' words. (BELOW)

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Of course Jesus wanted the Disciples to understand very clearly that this was NOT THE END (Not his Second Coming) because if they got caught up in this event in Jerusalem, they would probably be killed and not be able to fulfill their Work of bringing forth the Church unto the world. God needed them to know that this was NOT THE END, this was a false christ coming forth and these WARS they heard about was not him coming back, but only Jerusalem being destroyed and the Temple/its people being destroyed as he had prophesied. (First christ mentioned is EXPLAINED)

Now we move past 70 AD in verses 7-13 and maybe even verse 14 could be included here. For Nation will rise against Nation and Kingdoms against Kingdoms. This is a 2000 year Panoramic view from 70 AD until the coming Rapture. Jesus doesn't mention the Rapture here, but its hinted at from verse 36-51. The Rapture ministry was basically given unto Paul later on.

Anyhow, lets carry on. There will also be pestilences (Black Plague etc.) Earthquakes, Famines etc. etc. over this period of time known as the Sorrows. Then the Disciples are delivered up to be KILLED and Hated for Jesus' names sake, and of course most all of the Disciples were Martyred of course save John the Beloved.

Verse 11 here says Many FALSE PROPHETS will arise and deceive many, of course over this 2000 year period we have had many False Teachers/Preachers/Jewish Rabbis. Think Jim Jones/David Koresh types !! So this is mentioned again for a REASON, its about a totally different time period. Jesus tells them you must ENDURE (in the Faith) until the End (Run the full RACE) and he who does will be Rewarded/Saved. Then when the Gospel is preached unto ALL OF THE WORLD, the End will come.......then Jesus transitions unto the END TIMES by speaking of the Abomination of Desolation and the coming Tribulation period. (Rapture happens/Church Age Ends).

Revelation 24:14/15-27 is Jesus telling about a period of TROUBLES like never before or since. He starts by speaking of the Abomination of Desolation (AoD) and tells the Jews to FLEE to the Mountains when they see this. Of course the Jews who heed Jesus' words are those who have Repented and accept Jesus as their Messiah just as Malachi 4:5-6, Zechariah 12:10 and 13:1 says will happen. Then the TIME OF GREAT TROUBLES Happen, Jesus said if God had not Shortened (to a PRE-PLANNED 7 Years of course)this time period NO FLESH would be saved.

Then the REAL Anti-Christ and False Prophet are mentioned as doing REAL Miracles and Wonders, unlike verses 5 and 11 where they just DECEIVED People. Jesus warns the future Jews not to go unto these men in the Desert or in their Secret Chambers ( Of course Satan is trying to trick them into coming out of their PROTECTED ZONE where he can kill them )else they will be harmed, but alas, these ELECT will not believe the lies because Jesus has forewarned them that he will be coming in the EASTERN SKIES !!

So in essence, everyone of these SIGNS must be seen by the Generation that will see Jesus return. And you can SEE A SIGN and not be born until afterwards, I see Israel being REBORN as a Sign of Ezekiel's Prophecy of Dry Bones being fulfilled, just because I was not born until 1964 doesn't mean I do not SEE THE SIGN !!!

So the Temple was destroyed, the first false christ was seen, the rumors of Jerusalem's WARS came true. We saw the Kingdoms vs Kingdoms, pestilences, earthquakes and famine signs, the Disciples all murdered, and we are VERY NEAR to seeing the Gospel preached unto ALL THE WORLD !! What is left?

Well after the Rapture, that Generation will via History see everything above I just mentioned, then they will see the Abomination of Desolation, the Jews Flee to Petra, the TIMES OF GREAT TROUBLES, the Anti-Christ and False Prophet working Miracles. They will then see the Sun Darkened, the Moon turn blood red and the Stars falling from Heaven.

The Parable of the Fig Tree tells us we must see ALL OF THESE SIGNS, meaning those living in the Tribulation are the only ones who can see ALL OF THOSE SIGNS !!!

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

You guys change the meaning of the WHOLE PASSAGE by not understanding that YE means the Future people that see ALL OF THESE SIGNS. And they can only be Tribulation Saints (Jews).

When ye see these signs, then you will see the Son of Man coming in the Clouds of Heaven.

SabathMoon
September 19th, 2017, 11:55 AM
Act 12:22
And the people gave a shout, saying, It is the voice of a god, and not of a man.

Act 12:23
And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.

George Affleck
September 19th, 2017, 07:31 PM
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

You guys change the meaning of the WHOLE PASSAGE by not understanding that YE mean the Future people that see ALL OF THESE SIGNS. And they can only be Tribulation Saints.

When ye see these signs, then you will see the Son of Man coming in the Clouds of Heaven.

When you come to the point of allowing God to say what He has said instead of forcing your own ideas onto the Scriptures, you will realize that these words are a record of what Jesus said to His disciples. They are not words spoken into the air for distant generations to scan the headlines looking in vain for signs of the end of the world.

The "ye" referenced here (twice so we can't get it wrong) were flesh and blood followers of Jesus and He was instructing them about things that would happen in their generation - while they were still living. Mat 16:28KJV, Matt 23:36. They would see these things. Their very eyes would behold them. That is why the Word says "ye"; so we can understand who Jesus was talking to.

If you think that Jesus expected his hearers to let these words go in one ear and out the other and leave them for a generation 2000+ years hence, why are they recorded as having been spoken specifically to them?

Adding to the words of Scripture that which is not there is a dangerous occupation and the thing upon which the cults are based. I encourage you to let God say what He says; no more, no less. Let Scripture interpret Scripture. And if it means letting go of some man-made notions, so be it.

Rondonmonson
September 19th, 2017, 10:46 PM
When you come to the point of allowing God to say what He has said instead of forcing your own ideas onto the Scriptures, you will realize that these words are a record of what Jesus said to His disciples. They are not words spoken into the air for distant generations to scan the headlines looking in vain for signs of the end of the world.

The "ye" referenced here (twice so we can't get it wrong) were flesh and blood followers of Jesus and He was instructing them about things that would happen in their generation - while they were still living. Mat 16:28KJV, Matt 23:36. They would see these things. Their very eyes would behold them. That is why the Word says "ye"; so we can understand who Jesus was talking to.

If you think that Jesus expected his hearers to let these words go in one ear and out the other and leave them for a generation 2000+ years hence, why are they recorded as having been spoken specifically to them?

Adding to the words of Scripture that which is not there is a dangerous occupation and the thing upon which the cults are based. I encourage you to let God say what He says; no more, no less. Let Scripture interpret Scripture. And if it means letting go of some man-made notions, so be it.

The only person "ADDING WORDS" is you and your ilk because you do not understand what they say. The Holy Spirit should never mislead his own. The fact that you can't even understand the Abomination of Desolation is an END TIME VENT is quite startling. It just is not even debatable.Of course your 70 AD THEORY has to twist everything else around, it evens has to make the END TIMES 2000 years ago even though it wasn't.

Jesus was clearly speaking about the Generation that SEES ALL of these things. You just can't seem to grasp that it seems. But when you get to heaven you will see in full then. Its my job to know the truth.