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Dan Emanuel
May 27th, 2015, 09:57 AM
So say's Heir (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4325389#post4325389):
"As one who has trusted the Lord believing the word of truth, the gospel of my salvation, I could murder 6,000,000 Jews and it would not change the fact that I am a saved and sealed member of the Body of Christ!"I agree. If Adolf Hitler could say the same thing here that Heir has said, honestly, then he too could have eternal life.


Daniel

ttruscott
May 27th, 2015, 11:47 AM
The failure of this as theological speculation is that I doubt if GOD would ever let one of HIS sinful elect become so deceived and given over to sin as this.

Satan is restrained by GOD, Pharaoh was restrained by GOD and so indeed all of the people of the kingdom here on earth are also restrained by GOD.

Pharaoh and Satan were both freed from restraint (called the hardening of Pharaoh's heart) to prove to the world but especially the good seed the true eternal nature of their evil, necessitating the judgment. Why would HE remove the restrainer from HIS own elect unless they were so stubborn that only by committing the worst atrocity in history would their eyes be opened to their sin and need for repentance and redemption by the blood?

So theoretically it might be possible but practically there would not seem to be a need for it...allowing ordinary sins is the usual method GOD uses to open our eyes to our sinfulness, giving us the knowledge of OUR good an evil - the knowledge that our good misses the mark and our evil is real and makes us guilty before HIM.

Peace, Ted

Dan Emanuel
May 27th, 2015, 11:47 AM
So say's Heir (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4325389#post4325389):
"As one who has trusted the Lord believing the word of truth, the gospel of my salvation, I could murder 6,000,000 Jews and it would not change the fact that I am a saved and sealed member of the Body of Christ!"I agree.I unconditionally agree.


Daniel

Dan Emanuel
May 27th, 2015, 11:50 AM
The failure of this as theological speculation is that I doubt if GOD would ever let one of HIS sinful elect become so deceived and given over to sin as this.Thats a different topic though, right?

Satan is restrained by GOD, Pharaoh was restrained by GOD and so indeed all of the people of the kingdom here on earth are also restrained by GOD.

Pharaoh and Satan were both freed from restraint (called the hardening of Pharaoh's heart) to prove to the world but especially the good seed the true eternal nature of their evil, necessitating the judgment. Why would HE remove the restrainer from HIS own elect unless they were so stubborn that only by committing the worst atrocity in history would their eyes be opened to their sin and need for repentance and redemption by the blood?

So theoretically it might be possible but practically there would not seem to be a need for it...allowing ordinary sins is the usual method GOD uses to open our eyes to our sinfulness, giving us the knowledge of OUR good an evil - the knowledge that our good misses the mark and our evil is real and makes us guilty before HIM.

Peace, TedApart from you're Calvinism...I think we agree.


Daniel

Stripe
May 27th, 2015, 12:43 PM
Fortunately, the church does not have to put up with this nonsense. Anybody who watches as a man commits murder, or associates with someone who says something akin to OP, is not showing proper judgement.

Dan Emanuel
May 27th, 2015, 12:49 PM
Fortunately, the church does not have to put up with this nonsense. Anybody who watches as a man commits murder, or associates with someone who says something akin to OP, is not showing proper judgement.Associate's with Heir?


Daniel

Stripe
May 27th, 2015, 12:55 PM
Associate's with Heir?

Associates with a murderer or someone who says murder is excusable.

Kdall
May 27th, 2015, 01:14 PM
The failure of this as theological speculation is that I doubt if GOD would ever let one of HIS sinful elect become so deceived and given over to sin as this.

I believe that by giving man free will, God allows all, even His elect, to commit all sorts of evil if they so desire

Dan Emanuel
May 27th, 2015, 01:20 PM
Associates with a murderer or someone who says murder is excusable.Fortunately then, the OP is neither advocating murder, nor excusing murder. It is revealing the power of Jesus Christ over sin, and Heirs courage.


Daniel

Dan Emanuel
May 27th, 2015, 01:22 PM
I believe that by giving man free will, God allows all, even His elect, to commit all sorts of evil if they so desireThis is not a thread about theodicy, but if you in any way are condemning God for any of the sin's that we commit, I have to disagree. But if your not, then you're post is fine. :)


Daniel

Kdall
May 27th, 2015, 01:25 PM
This is not a thread about theodicy, but if you in any way are condemning God for any of the sin's that we commit, I have to disagree. But if your not, then you're post is fine. :)


Daniel

I'm not. He gives each man the ability to make his own choices out of love. Nobody wants to be a robot. Inevitably, some people will make bad decisions with their free will

Dan Emanuel
May 27th, 2015, 01:30 PM
I'm not. He gives each man the ability to make his own choices out of love. Nobody wants to be a robot. Inevitably, some people will make bad decisions with their free willI agree, and so does Nick M. (See my "Slogan/motto:")


Daniel

patrick jane
May 27th, 2015, 01:34 PM
So say's Heir (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4325389#post4325389):
"As one who has trusted the Lord believing the word of truth, the gospel of my salvation, I could murder 6,000,000 Jews and it would not change the fact that I am a saved and sealed member of the Body of Christ!"I agree. If Adolf Hitler could say the same thing here that Heir has said, honestly, then he too could have eternal life.


Daniel

you're a joke - the reality is, a saved and sealed member of the BOC will never do that - find a new purpose in life -

Dan Emanuel
May 27th, 2015, 01:38 PM
you're a jokeThats OK.

the reality is, a saved and sealed member of the BOC will never do thatReally? Scripture?

find a new purpose in lifeI like this 1.


Daniel

Stripe
May 27th, 2015, 01:54 PM
Fortunately then, the OP is neither advocating murder, nor excusing murder. It is revealing the power of Jesus Christ over sin, and Heirs courage.Daniel

Quote in OP might be courageous, but it is foolhardy first.

heir
May 27th, 2015, 02:00 PM
Quote in OP might be courageous, but it is foolhardy first.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

heir
May 27th, 2015, 02:04 PM
So say's Heir (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4325389#post4325389):
"As one who has trusted the Lord believing the word of truth, the gospel of my salvation, I could murder 6,000,000 Jews and it would not change the fact that I am a saved and sealed member of the Body of Christ!"I agree. If Adolf Hitler could say the same thing here that Heir has said, honestly, then he too could have eternal life.


DanielNow you know Daniel, that there are a ton of people here who believe that one has to clean up their act to be saved and has to do something to remain saved. They do not associate themselves as ever being the ungodly nor do they believe that while we were yet without strength Christ died for us. They don't understand what happened at the cross nor the position of a member of the Body of Christ as saved and sealed.

IOW, you've gone and done it now!

SaulToPaul
May 27th, 2015, 02:05 PM
So say's Heir (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4325389#post4325389):
"As one who has trusted the Lord believing the word of truth, the gospel of my salvation, I could murder 6,000,000 Jews and it would not change the fact that I am a saved and sealed member of the Body of Christ!"I agree. If Adolf Hitler could say the same thing here that Heir has said, honestly, then he too could have eternal life.


Daniel

I agree with heir.

Now, get up a search party and scour the earth to see if a single MAD wacko can be found which has ever committed a single murder.

Stripe
May 27th, 2015, 02:06 PM
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

As I say, quote in OP provides ammunition for those who would slander Christians. I prefer Paul's response to the challenge:


Romans3:5-8
But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unjust who inflicts wrath? (I speak as a man.) Certainly not! For then how will God judge the world? For if the truth of God has increased through my lie to His glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner? And why not say, “Let us do evil that good may come”?—as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just.

heir
May 27th, 2015, 02:16 PM
As I say, quote in OP provides ammunition for those who would slander Christians. I prefer Paul's response to the challenge:


Romans3:5-8
But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unjust who inflicts wrath? (I speak as a man.) Certainly not! For then how will God judge the world? For if the truth of God has increased through my lie to His glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner? And why not say, “Let us do evil that good may come”?—as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say.Their condemnation is just.Keep reading!

Slanderous reports do not change the glorious fact that even though there are none righteous, ANYONE who has trusted the Lord believing the gospel of Christ (1 Corinthians 15: 1-4 KJV) has the righteousness of God by the faith of Jesus Christ upon them (Romans 3:10-22 KJV)! PTL!

What someone does in their flesh (where there dwelleth no good thing) has no bearing on a person's salvation (Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV, Ephesians 2:4-9 KJV, Titus 3:4-7 KJV)!

Stripe
May 27th, 2015, 02:23 PM
Keep reading!

No need.

OP can be replaced by what I posted.

heir
May 27th, 2015, 02:43 PM
No need.Too bad for you (1 Corinthians 1:10 KJV, 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV)



OP can be replaced by what I posted.I don't think so!

The quote from the OP:

"As one who has trusted the Lord believing the word of truth, the gospel of my salvation, I could murder 6,000,000 Jews and it would not change the fact that I am a saved and sealed member of the Body of Christ!"

No one can touch my salvation!

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Stripe
May 27th, 2015, 02:49 PM
No one can touch my salvation!

A statement I haven't challenged.

Psalmist
May 27th, 2015, 03:17 PM
So say's Heir (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4325389#post4325389):
"As one who has trusted the Lord believing the word of truth, the gospel of my salvation, I could murder 6,000,000 Jews and it would not change the fact that I am a saved and sealed member of the Body of Christ!"I agree. If Adolf Hitler could say the same thing here that Heir has said, honestly, then he too could have eternal life.


Daniel

Myself I really don't think Hitler was or could have been saved, I believe Hitler was beyond salvation, and incorrigible. But he did enter into eternal life lost for ever.

You should the book "A Spoke in the Wheel" by Dietrich Bonhoeffer.

Hitler a man who partied in front of Bonhoeffer, then made Bonhoeffer strip all his clothing off, march to the gallows, and Hitler watched Bonhoeffer hang until Bonhoeffer was dead, and a few others others along with Bonhoeffer.

We know Hitler committed suicide because he knew he'd caught up with and the end was coming.

Word based mystic
May 27th, 2015, 03:39 PM
The failure of this as theological speculation is that I doubt if GOD would ever let one of HIS sinful elect become so deceived and given over to sin as this.

Satan is restrained by GOD, Pharaoh was restrained by GOD and so indeed all of the people of the kingdom here on earth are also restrained by GOD.

Pharaoh and Satan were both freed from restraint (called the hardening of Pharaoh's heart) to prove to the world but especially the good seed the true eternal nature of their evil, necessitating the judgment. Why would HE remove the restrainer from HIS own elect unless they were so stubborn that only by committing the worst atrocity in history would their eyes be opened to their sin and need for repentance and redemption by the blood?

So theoretically it might be possible but practically there would not seem to be a need for it...allowing ordinary sins is the usual method GOD uses to open our eyes to our sinfulness, giving us the knowledge of OUR good an evil - the knowledge that our good misses the mark and our evil is real and makes us guilty before HIM.

Peace, Ted

bad and changing the meaning of or ignoring these scriptures.


satan restrained by God ((after)) (he) desired to be like God and receive his glory. God did not create Him rebellious.
(no robot here). Ezekiel 28:12,15
Your heart ((((became)))) proud on account of your beauty, and (((you))) corrupted ((your)) wisdom because of your splendor

next
pharaoh restrained by God after.

(((pharaoh))) (hardened) (his) {pharaohs own heart}. exodus 8:31-32.

choice. NO robot here.

Your idea of a robot creating God fails again.

heir
May 27th, 2015, 05:43 PM
A statement I haven't challenged.

I'm glad you see that you cannot challenge my salvation, as a member of the Body of Christ, which is by grace through the faith and finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross and God raising Him from the dead; no matter what I have done or will do in my flesh! It's a done deal!

OCTOBER23
May 27th, 2015, 05:47 PM
Wasn't Hitler Catholic ??????

Grosnick Marowbe
May 27th, 2015, 05:48 PM
Now you know Daniel, that there are a ton of people here who believe that one has to clean up their act to be saved and has to do something to remain saved. They do not associate themselves as ever being the ungodly nor do they believe that while we were yet without strength Christ died for us. They don't understand what happened at the cross nor the position of a member of the Body of Christ as saved and sealed.

IOW, you've gone and done it now!

Posters that are in the 'know,' know you're right Heir! You're
one of a very few posters on TOL who 'knows' what she's
talking about.

Dan Emanuel
May 27th, 2015, 05:48 PM
Wasn't Hitler Catholic ??????Yeah but I'm not.

I'm not German either.


Daniel

Grosnick Marowbe
May 27th, 2015, 05:49 PM
I'm glad you see that you cannot challenge my salvation, as a member of the Body of Christ, which is by grace through the faith and finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross and God raising Him from the dead; no matter what I have done or will do in my flesh! It's a done deal!

AMEN! This Danny character doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.

Grosnick Marowbe
May 27th, 2015, 05:50 PM
Yeah but I'm not.

I'm not German either.


Daniel

You MAY not be German however, you are a Catholic.

Grosnick Marowbe
May 27th, 2015, 05:52 PM
Your told your fellow posters to; "Pray the Rosary!" And, you also admitted that,
Peter was the first Pope!

Grosnick Marowbe
May 27th, 2015, 05:53 PM
You deny you're a Catholic but, you're as Catholic as the Pope himself.

heir
May 27th, 2015, 05:54 PM
Myself I really don't think Hitler was or could have been saved, I believe Hitler was beyond salvation, and incorrigible. But he did enter into eternal life lost for ever.
He could have been saved:

Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.


Anyone can be saved when they trust the Lord after hearing and believing the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation.


1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

1 Corinthians 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:


After all, the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth...


Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


no longer to the Jew first and also to the Greek, but to ALL MEN!

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


No matter who you are or what you were doing while you were there God will save you! That is the word of reconciliation!

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Grosnick Marowbe
May 27th, 2015, 05:54 PM
If it looks like a duck and quakes like a duck, then guess what?

Dan Emanuel
May 27th, 2015, 05:56 PM
Now you know Daniel, that there are a ton of people here who believe that one has to clean up their act to be saved and has to do something to remain saved. They do not associate themselves as ever being the ungodly nor do they believe that while we were yet without strength Christ died for us. They don't understand what happened at the cross nor the position of a member of the Body of Christ as saved and sealed.

IOW, you've gone and done it now!patrick -


Daniel

Grosnick Marowbe
May 27th, 2015, 05:58 PM
He could have been saved:

Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.


Anyone can be saved when they trust the Lord after hearing and believing the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation.


1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

1 Corinthians 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:


After all, the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth...


Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


no longer to the Jew first and also to the Greek, but to ALL MEN!

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


No matter who you are or what you were doing while you were there God will save you! That is the word of reconciliation!

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

You're right. Had Hitler heard the Grace Message, placed his faith
in Christ as his Savior, been sealed/indwelt by the Holy Spirit and
baptized into the Body of Christ, 'not by water' he could have been
saved! He would have been a very different Hitler had the Holy Spirit
indwelt him.

Dan Emanuel
May 27th, 2015, 06:12 PM
I agree with heir.


Now, get up a search party and scour the earth to see if a single MAD wacko can be found which has ever committed a single murder.No need. Who care's? Even if every single MAD wacko was a serial killer it doesn't change Jesus Christ at all, nor what is true of Him, nor that salvation is only found in Him, through Him, by Him, with Him, believing on Him, in Him, faith in Him.

You agree with that.


Daniel

Grosnick Marowbe
May 27th, 2015, 06:16 PM
No need. Who care's? Even if every single MAD wacko was a serial killer it doesn't change Jesus Christ at all, nor what is true of Him, nor that salvation is only found in Him, through Him, by Him, with Him, believing on Him, in Him, faith in Him.

You agree with that.


Daniel

Does your Priest agree with you?

Dan Emanuel
May 27th, 2015, 06:19 PM
Myself I really don't think Hitler was or could have been saved, I believe Hitler was beyond salvation, and incorrigible. But he did enter into eternal life lost for ever.

You should the book "A Spoke in the Wheel" by Dietrich Bonhoeffer.

Hitler a man who partied in front of Bonhoeffer, then made Bonhoeffer strip all his clothing off, march to the gallows, and Hitler watched Bonhoeffer hang until Bonhoeffer was dead, and a few others others along with Bonhoeffer.

We know Hitler committed suicide because he knew he'd caught up with and the end was coming.Hitlers suicide certainly closed the book on his lifes work. He didn't own up to it, therefore, even if we all suddenly forgot everything, we'd still be able to figure out radically quickly that what Hitler did was the most unimaginably gravest of sin's, because of his suicide, he died a coward, proving the whole thing was an act, and he knew it all along.

Although what he did was not graver than crucifying Jesus. And our Lords Blood cleanse's even those who killed Him.


Daniel

P.S. Thank you for the recommendation. :e4e:

Grosnick Marowbe
May 27th, 2015, 06:21 PM
Hey Danny, since you deny you're a Catholic, why do you say that Peter
(Catholics consider him the first Pope) was followed by 200 some other
Popes? And, you've told others to, "Pray the rosary?" If you're not a Catholic,
I'll eat Meshaks hat?

Dan Emanuel
May 27th, 2015, 06:23 PM
(((pharaoh))) (hardened) (his) {pharaohs own heart}. exodus 8:31-32.

choice. NO robot here.

Your idea of a robot creating God fails again.In some way it seem's like its both, and regarding such fine point's of detail and other's like it, I'm glad to defer to Peter our pastor.


Daniel

Grosnick Marowbe
May 27th, 2015, 06:25 PM
In some way it seem's like its both, and regarding such fine point's of detail and other's like it, I'm glad to defer to Peter our pastor.


Daniel

You mean; Pope

patrick jane
May 27th, 2015, 06:30 PM
i hope heir never responds to you - your extreme hypothetical accusations and questions deserve none -

jamie
May 27th, 2015, 06:31 PM
If it looks like a duck and quakes like a duck, then guess what?


My guess is it's AFLAC.

Dan Emanuel
May 27th, 2015, 06:47 PM
Posters that are in the 'know,' know you're right Heir! You're
one of a very few posters on TOL who 'knows' what she's
talking about.Heir "knocked it out of the park."


Daniel

Dan Emanuel
May 27th, 2015, 06:48 PM
AMEN! This Danny character doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.:confused:

:think:

:chuckle: Good 1. :D

That is not written to me....

:)


Daniel

Dan Emanuel
May 27th, 2015, 06:55 PM
You MAY not be German however, you are a Catholic.Nope. Can't be. 'Wasn't born Catholic. 'Didn't convert. Nope, can't be. Can't be Catholic. Nope. No.


Daniel

The Horn
May 27th, 2015, 06:56 PM
The notion that if Hitler had repented of his monstrous crimes against humanity at the last minute , God would have forgiven him and allowed him to enjoy heavenly bliss for eternity , while the 6 million Jews he murdered went to hell merely because they were Jews
and did not accept Christ as savior is only one of many reasons why I am not a Christian and could never accept this religion .
It defies all logic and common snse . But if Christians still believe in salvation and damnation this is certainly their right .
I refuse to believe that Mahatma Gandhi is in hell now because he was a Hindu , or that the Dalai Lama will go to hell when he dies merely because he is a Buddhist .
Or that people in primitive tribes in the Amazon who never hear of Jesus and Christianity are doomed to hell . It's not their fault they
never heard of Jesus . They cantt even conceive of a Jesus or the idea of salvation and damnation . This kind of thinking is totally foreign to them .
Most Christians aren't bad people , but unfortunately , some of them are and have been absolute rotters . Of course, this is true of every religion . Why should the bad Christians be exempt from hell, assuming that a hell exists , merely because they accept Christ as their savior ?

Dan Emanuel
May 27th, 2015, 06:57 PM
Your told your fellow posters to; "Pray the Rosary!"I tell you to, pray the Rosary!

And, you also admitted that,
Peter was the first Pope!First supreme pastor, and his office continues to this day!


Daniel

Dan Emanuel
May 27th, 2015, 06:59 PM
You deny you're a Catholic but, you're as Catholic as the Pope himself.In a way, Peter teaches' us, yes, I am.

But not, how you mean it, G.M.!


Daniel

Dan Emanuel
May 27th, 2015, 07:00 PM
If it looks like a duck and quakes like a duck, then guess what?I'm a sinner but, not a Catholic. People confuse the 2!


Daniel

Dan Emanuel
May 27th, 2015, 07:03 PM
You're right. Had Hitler heard the Grace Message, placed his faith
in Christ as his Savior, been sealed/indwelt by the Holy Spirit and
baptized into the Body of Christ, 'not by water' he could have been
saved! He would have been a very different Hitler had the Holy Spirit
indwelt him.That wasn't Heirs point at all G.M.! Heir say's:

What someone does in their flesh (where there dwelleth no good thing) has no bearing on a person's salvation (Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Ephesians%201.13-14), Ephesians 2:4-9 KJV (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Ephesians%202.4-9), Titus 3:4-7 KJV (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Titus%203.4-7))!Do you agree with that G.M. or, don't you?


Daniel

Dan Emanuel
May 27th, 2015, 07:08 PM
Does your Priest agree with you?Har-dee har, har G.M.


Daniel

Arthur Brain
May 27th, 2015, 07:10 PM
So what about all those Jews who were murdered then? (Not to mention other groups). And to be fair let's not blame the atrocities solely on Hitler but all the cohorts and the regime that went along with him, but again, what of those who were sent packing off to death camps? What of those who witnessed the strangling of children (possibly their own) upon arrival and the indescribable horrors of all therein? Are they all rotting in "hell" if they didn't repent themselves having endured what probably none of us have ever had to undergo? This type of thread is just sickening IMO frankly...

Dan Emanuel
May 27th, 2015, 07:16 PM
Hey Danny, since you deny you're a Catholic, why do you say that Peter
(Catholics consider him the first Pope) was followed by 200 some other
Popes?Because I believe in the papacy, as the supreme pastorship of Jesus Christs own 1 true Church that He built upon Peter. Its Peters chair, Peters office, and in it Peter live's on to this day, because he has ruled from the Churches' day 1, no matter what day you consider that to be, Peter was the pastor then, and he is now.

And, you've told others to, "Pray the rosary?"I've found its very good for me to pray the Rosary, so I recommend it.

If you're not a Catholic,
I'll eat Meshaks hat?I won't hold you to that.


Daniel

Dan Emanuel
May 27th, 2015, 07:20 PM
You mean; PopeIts the most important job on earth, under heaven.


Daniel

Dan Emanuel
May 27th, 2015, 07:24 PM
The notion that if Hitler had repented of his monstrous crimes against humanity at the last minute , God would have forgiven him and allowed him to enjoy heavenly bliss for eternity , while the 6 million Jews he murdered went to hell merely because they were Jews
and did not accept Christ as savior is only one of many reasons why I am not a Christian and could never accept this religion .
It defies all logic and common snse . But if Christians still believe in salvation and damnation this is certainly their right .
I refuse to believe that Mahatma Gandhi is in hell now because he was a Hindu , or that the Dalai Lama will go to hell when he dies merely because he is a Buddhist .
Or that people in primitive tribes in the Amazon who never hear of Jesus and Christianity are doomed to hell . It's not their fault they
never heard of Jesus . They cantt even conceive of a Jesus or the idea of salvation and damnation . This kind of thinking is totally foreign to them .
Most Christians aren't bad people , but unfortunately , some of them are and have been absolute rotters . Of course, this is true of every religion . Why should the bad Christians be exempt from hell, assuming that a hell exists , merely because they accept Christ as their savior ?All good comment's and observation's and question's, Horn. I find Peters teaching's on all these matter's to be extraordinarily helpful and clarifying and healing.


Daniel

meshak
May 27th, 2015, 07:25 PM
In a way, Peter teaches' us, yes, I am.

But not, how you mean it, G.M.!


Daniel

Just a minute,

Are you serious? Jesus is not your teacher and Peter is?????

You know Jesus says not to call anyone teacher because He is the Teacher?

You need to read Jesus' word, friend.

Dan Emanuel
May 27th, 2015, 07:31 PM
So what about all those Jews who were murdered then? (Not to mention other groups). And to be fair let's not blame the atrocities solely on Hitler but all the cohorts and the regime that went along with him, but again, what of those who were sent packing off to death camps? What of those who witnessed the strangling of children (possibly their own) upon arrival and the indescribable horrors of all therein? Are they all rotting in "hell" if they didn't repent themselves having endured what probably none of us have ever had to undergo?Peter has a lot of really insightful, loving, and deep thing's to say about these matter's Arthur.

This type of thread is just sickening IMO frankly...I'm sorry you had to see it then.


Daniel

Dan Emanuel
May 27th, 2015, 07:35 PM
Just a minute,

Are you serious? Jesus is not your teacher and Peter is?????

You know Jesus says not to call anyone teacher because He is the Teacher?

You need to read Jesus' word, friend.Of course Jesus is my Teacher you fool. He teaches' that Peter teaches' us. Listen to Peter.

Not to you. Not even to you, when you quote Scripture, because even then, your connoting something, your slitheringly implying something evil, something wicked, something that subvert's the infinite power of Jesus Christ our Lord, His complete power over sin and death. You are evil and you drive people away from Jesus. You'll not do that in this thread without a heck of a lot of resistance from me.


Daniel

Dan Emanuel
May 27th, 2015, 07:42 PM
Quote in OP might be courageous, but it is foolhardy first.Is it sinful?


Daniel

Dan Emanuel
May 27th, 2015, 07:47 PM
OP can be replaced by what I posted.So that mean's, logically, that what Heir said is right.


Daniel

Dan Emanuel
May 27th, 2015, 07:49 PM
No one can touch my salvation!Because Jesus surround's it with an infinite cushion of protection, and it cannot be breeched by anything done in the flesh.


Daniel

meshak
May 27th, 2015, 07:49 PM
Of course Jesus is my Teacher you fool. He teaches' that Peter teaches' us. Listen to Peter.

Nope, you are disregarding Jesus' word. Jesus never said Peter is the teacher.

And Peter never said he is teacher. He never took place of Jesus.

Dan Emanuel
May 27th, 2015, 07:50 PM
A statement I haven't challenged.Amen. You have not. I hope that you'll see value in the thread, but its cool that you don't.


Daniel

meshak
May 27th, 2015, 07:54 PM
Hey DE,

I thought Paul was your teacher. what happened?

heir
May 27th, 2015, 07:56 PM
Because Jesus surround's it with an infinite cushion of protection, and it cannot be breeched by anything done in the flesh.


DanielRather, a seal: the earnest (guarantee) of my inheritance!

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Dan Emanuel
May 27th, 2015, 07:56 PM
I'm glad you see that you cannot challenge my salvation, as a member of the Body of Christ, which is by grace through the faith and finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross and God raising Him from the dead; no matter what I have done or will do in my flesh! It's a done deal!Amen. "the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth." Our Lord is too powerful, for even our own sin's to condemn us.


Daniel

Dan Emanuel
May 27th, 2015, 08:03 PM
Posters that are in the 'know,' know you're right Heir! You're
one of a very few posters on TOL who 'knows' what she's
talking about.

Heir "knocked it out of the park."Sometime's the original recordholder is "knocked off." But in this case I think John W. (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3229536#post3229536) will be happy to hand over his trophy to Heir.


Daniel

Dan Emanuel
May 27th, 2015, 08:15 PM
Nope, you are disregarding Jesus' word. Jesus never said Peter is the teacher.And here your making yourself to be the teacher that only Jesus is --according to you. Jesus said, "Listen to Peter. Peter's My guy."

And Peter never said he is teacher.Did too, and does too.

He never took place of Jesus.Nobody said this. Your imagining thing's. Pay attention. Stop being distracted.


Daniel

Dan Emanuel
May 27th, 2015, 08:16 PM
Hey DE,

I thought Paul was your teacher. what happened?Paul --along with all the Apostle's, is my teacher, which mean's Jesus is my Teacher, because He said listen to Peter.


Daniel

Dan Emanuel
May 27th, 2015, 08:17 PM
Rather, a seal: the earnest (guarantee) of my inheritance!

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.Always sticking to Scripture --love it!


Daniel

meshak
May 27th, 2015, 08:21 PM
Paul --along with all the Apostle's, is my teacher, which mean's Jesus is my Teacher, because He said listen to Peter.


Daniel

Now you don't have to lie, dear. where is Jesus say listen to Peter?

Jesus says clearly He is the Teacher. You are disregarding Jesus' own word.

You need to get rid of your traditional corrupt faith.

It I clear that you are not seeking to be true Jesus.

suit yourself, friend.

good day.

Dan Emanuel
May 27th, 2015, 08:31 PM
Now you don't have to lie, dear. where is Jesus say listen to Peter?You show me right now how Jesus talk's to you Meshak or else shut up you nitwit.

Jesus says clearly He is the Teacher. You are disregarding Jesus' own word.How many decade's after Jesuses' own Church began Meshak, did anybody write down what Jesus said, you idiot?

You need to get rid of your traditional corrupt faith.Just shut up.

It I clear that you are not seeking to be true Jesus. "It I clear?" What does "It I clear" mean? What language are you pretending to not speak?

And of course I'm not trying to "be true Jesus." You've removed all doubt from anyones' mind that you are as dumb as a bag of rock's.

suit yourself, friend."Friend?" How nice, you pinhead.

good day."Isaidgoodday!"


Daniel

Grosnick Marowbe
May 28th, 2015, 01:40 AM
Har-dee har, har G.M.


Daniel

I hope your Priest understands your humor?

Grosnick Marowbe
May 28th, 2015, 01:44 AM
You show me right now how Jesus talk's to you Meshak or else shut up you nitwit.
How many decade's after Jesuses' own Church began Meshak, did anybody write down what Jesus said, you idiot?
Just shut up.
"It I clear?" What does "It I clear" mean? What language are you pretending to not speak?

And of course I'm not trying to "be true Jesus." You've removed all doubt from anyones' mind that you are as dumb as a bag of rock's.
"Friend?" How nice, you pinhead.
"Isaidgoodday!"


Daniel

Resorting to calling names now, huh? How far did you get
in your education? I'm betting, NOT very far.

Dan Emanuel
May 28th, 2015, 02:25 AM
I hope your Priest understands your humor?So, how long have you considered yourself "ex-Catholic" G.M.? Its clear as day that you're born Catholic, just fess up.


Daniel

Dan Emanuel
May 28th, 2015, 02:32 AM
Resorting to calling names now, huh?You act like its a bad thing. Do I really have to produce the hundred's if not thousand's of post's where you verbally assault Meshak, unendingly? Truly, Jesus told us, "for they say, and do not."

How far did you get
in your education?To the end.

I'm betting, NOT very far.Also true.


Daniel

Grosnick Marowbe
May 28th, 2015, 02:35 AM
So, how long have you considered yourself "ex-Catholic" G.M.? Its clear as day that you're born Catholic, just fess up.


Daniel

You're the one who tells posters to "Pray the rosary" and tells them
about how the Popes keep on ruling over the Catholic church! Since
you "Pray the rosary" and admire the many Popes, you MUST be a
Catholic, right? I have never brought up those discussions so, that
makes YOU the Catholic!

Grosnick Marowbe
May 28th, 2015, 02:39 AM
You act like its a bad thing. Do I really have to produce the hundred's if not thousand's of post's where you verbally assault Meshak, unendingly? Truly, Jesus told us, "for they say, and do not."
To the end.
Also true.


Daniel

Thought so. I give you complete permission to post every single one
of my posts to Meshak. That might be fun? Others would enjoy it as
well. Because frankly, your posts are boring. No Offence.

chair
May 28th, 2015, 03:10 AM
The notion that if Hitler had repented of his monstrous crimes against humanity at the last minute , God would have forgiven him and allowed him to enjoy heavenly bliss for eternity , while the 6 million Jews he murdered went to hell merely because they were Jews
and did not accept Christ as savior is only one of many reasons why I am not a Christian and could never accept this religion .
It defies all logic and common snse . But if Christians still believe in salvation and damnation this is certainly their right .
I refuse to believe that Mahatma Gandhi is in hell now because he was a Hindu , or that the Dalai Lama will go to hell when he dies merely because he is a Buddhist .
Or that people in primitive tribes in the Amazon who never hear of Jesus and Christianity are doomed to hell . It's not their fault they
never heard of Jesus . They cantt even conceive of a Jesus or the idea of salvation and damnation . This kind of thinking is totally foreign to them .
Most Christians aren't bad people , but unfortunately , some of them are and have been absolute rotters . Of course, this is true of every religion . Why should the bad Christians be exempt from hell, assuming that a hell exists , merely because they accept Christ as their savior ?

Amazing how little attention this post has gotten. Even as a thought experiment, this should be thought provoking. Stop and think- maybe there is something that is not quite right in your (Christian) theology?

Nazaroo
May 28th, 2015, 03:53 AM
yep I see a few errors here:

Dalai Lama isn't going to hell because he's a buddhist.

if he goes to hell it will be for being a fag.

chair
May 28th, 2015, 04:36 AM
yep I see a few errors here:

Dalai Lama isn't going to hell because he's a buddhist.

if he goes to hell it will be for being a fag.

He's a homosexual? Do you have a source for that?

chrysostom
May 28th, 2015, 05:14 AM
Amazing how little attention this post has gotten. Even as a thought experiment, this should be thought provoking. Stop and think- maybe there is something that is not quite right in your (Christian) theology?

it is not amazing
if
you understand christian theology

many christians do not

have you noticed
we don't agree
so
there is something that is not quite right with our theology

Dan Emanuel
May 28th, 2015, 10:29 AM
You're the one who tells posters to "Pray the rosary"Sure am. The Rosary begin's with the Lords prayer, you know. He taught His disciple's to pray this way, and Peter teaches' us to pray this way too.

He also tell's us to ask Mary to "pray for us sinner's," which is what the Apostle John said in his epistle to the Church, that we should pray for those who, "sin a sin which is not unto death" --e.g., a "venial" sin --a "mortal" sin is sin that does lead to death.

And the Glory Be prayer end's with these wonderful word's:
WORLD WITHOUT END, AMENThey are lovely word's, and they speak what my heart know's.

G.M.

and tells them
about how the Popes keep on ruling over the Catholic church!Indeed, Peters office rule's the whole Church today, as he has from day 1. 'Thing is, Peter doesn't talk much today. The last thing he said was back in the 1990s I think. Of course, throughout the whole history of the whole Church, this is a blink of an eye, so what Peter said in the 1990s is what he say's today, and if it were otherwise, Francis would say something --and he is not saying anything (different).

Since
you "Pray the rosary"I actually pray the Rosary, I do not "Pray the rosary," with quote's.

I can pray the [heart, or core of the] Rosary in about 3 minute's if need be. I usually take my time. I don't use bead's to keep track though, I keep in my mind variation's of prime number's, dice or playing card's, and patterned dot's, so I know which Hail Mary I'm on. Its good mental exercise, if nothing else G.M., you should try it.

and admire the many PopesI don't admire the many pope's. I admire that Jesuses' own creation, Peters supreme pastorship of Jesuses' own Church, that He built upon Peter, is a stronger institution today than it ever has been. I admire our Lords handiwork. His foster father Joseph was a carpenter you know. Our Lord knew how to build.

you MUST be a
Catholic, right?No.

I have never brought up those discussions so, that
makes YOU the Catholic!Still no.


Daniel

1.1

meshak
May 28th, 2015, 10:31 AM
You show me right now how Jesus talk's to you Meshak or else shut up you nitwit.
How many decade's after Jesuses' own Church began Meshak, did anybody write down what Jesus said, you idiot?
Just shut up.
"It I clear?" What does "It I clear" mean? What language are you pretending to not speak?

And of course I'm not trying to "be true Jesus." You've removed all doubt from anyones' mind that you are as dumb as a bag of rock's.
"Friend?" How nice, you pinhead.
"Isaidgoodday!"


Daniel

I have being called many names but pinhead is new:)

Dan Emanuel
May 28th, 2015, 10:33 AM
Thought so.Thought so what?

I give you complete permission to post every single one
of my posts to Meshak.I don't need you're permission to do that G.M., but thank's anyway.

That might be fun?Might be.

Others would enjoy it as
well.Might be.

Because franklyYou never lack for frankness G.M.!

your posts are boring.That must be why you hound me so much, because I'm boring.

No Offence.You couldn't if you tried, and thats a compliment, coming from me. :)


Daniel

Dan Emanuel
May 28th, 2015, 10:36 AM
I have called many names but pinhead is new:)I knew you'd be back. :)

I believe that you believe in Jesus (John 3 verse 16) Meshak, I have no reason to doubt you're faith. I chastise you because you don't teach what Peter teaches,' and Peter is OK with that, and therefore so am I, because teaching the right thing is Peters job, and not our's.

I'm going to point out where you diverge from Peter, in my thread's.


Daniel

meshak
May 28th, 2015, 10:38 AM
I knew you'd be back. :)

I believe that you believe in Jesus (John 3 verse 16) Meshak, I have no reason to doubt you're faith. I chastise you because you don't teach what Peter teaches,' and Peter is OK with that, and therefore so am I, because teaching the right thing is Peters job, and not our's.

I'm going to point out where you diverge from Peter, in my thread's.


Daniel

I will not debate doctrine. I just thought your name calling was cute.:)

Dan Emanuel
May 28th, 2015, 10:42 AM
Amazing how little attention this post has gotten. Even as a thought experiment, this should be thought provoking. Stop and think- maybe there is something that is not quite right in your (Christian) theology?Heir professed the power of our Lord over sin and death in a radical way, and it evoke's very strong reaction's to it. In Christian theology, they're is no worse sin that crucifying the Lord of glory, and His death atoned even for this sin! The 1st Christian's were all Peters brethren and you're ancestor's, and when they understood what they had done, and realized the unconditional mercy offered to them, they believed! Peter led [three] thousand of them to faith in a single day.

And as I recommended to Horn, check out what Peter actually teaches us about these difficult question's today. He is a blessing, and a caring, practical genius.


Daniel

1.1

Dan Emanuel
May 28th, 2015, 10:43 AM
it is not amazing
if
you understand christian theology

many christians do not

have you noticed
we don't agree
so
there is something that is not quite right with our theologyThey're is something quite right with Peters theology though. I think that we need to promote this.


Daniel

Dan Emanuel
May 28th, 2015, 10:46 AM
I will not debate doctrine.All right. You believe in Jesus Christ, thats enough. John 3 verse 16.

I just thought your name calling was cute.:)I'm glad that you received it in the manner in which it was intended.


Daniel

meshak
May 28th, 2015, 10:55 AM
All right. You believe in Jesus Christ, thats enough. John 3 verse 16.
I'm glad that you received it in the manner in which it was intended.


Daniel

that's the Spirit:)

Arthur Brain
May 28th, 2015, 09:29 PM
Amazing how little attention this post has gotten. Even as a thought experiment, this should be thought provoking. Stop and think- maybe there is something that is not quite right in your (Christian) theology?

Probably because it's too uncomfortable for them to deal with, as it should be.

patrick jane
May 28th, 2015, 09:38 PM
yep I see a few errors here:

Dalai Lama isn't going to hell because he's a buddhist.

if he goes to hell it will be for being a fag.

i heard hitler was too - :Patrol:

Dan Emanuel
May 29th, 2015, 10:28 AM
Probably because it's too uncomfortable for them to deal with, as it should be.Which part exactly do you mean? I want to weigh in, but its not clear what your talking about.

For me, it is not uncomfortable at all to profess and defend what Heir said, and then later defended, in the O.P.


Daniel

Right Divider
May 29th, 2015, 11:10 AM
This is not a thread about theodicy, but if you in any way are condemning God for any of the sin's that we commit, I have to disagree. But if your not, then you're post is fine. :)

Daniel
Why do you consistently get these BACKWARDS?

You're is a contraction meaning: YOU ARE
Your is a possessive meaning: It belong to you

Ben Masada
May 29th, 2015, 11:12 AM
No, he couldn't because, there is nothing eternal about man but death.

Town Heretic
May 29th, 2015, 11:14 AM
No, he couldn't because, there is nothing eternal about man but death.
Silly Rabbi, tricks are for kids. :Plain: If death is the end eternal is meaningless.

Thanks for the ray of sunshine though.

Town Heretic
May 29th, 2015, 11:22 AM
So say's Heir (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4325389#post4325389):
"As one who has trusted the Lord believing the word of truth, the gospel of my salvation, I could murder 6,000,000 Jews and it would not change the fact that I am a saved and sealed member of the Body of Christ!"I agree. If Adolf Hitler could say the same thing here that Heir has said, honestly, then he too could have eternal life.
I'd say you could have done so, though with that sort of horror on your soul I'd wonder if or how you would ever be inclined and beyond that point I don't believe anyone indwelled by Christ would subsequently participate in genocide, meaning that as hypotheticals go it's a foggy stretch and needless. Better to simply say that the point of grace is forgiveness of sin and that one sin or a hundred is met by it.

Right Divider
May 29th, 2015, 11:25 AM
In some way it seem's like its both, and regarding such fine point's of detail and other's like it, I'm glad to defer to Peter our pastor.

Daniel
In scripture, Peter is never referred to as 'pastor'. You're a deceiver.

glorydaz
May 29th, 2015, 11:29 AM
In scripture, Peter is never referred to as 'pastor'. You're a deceiver.

Yep, and a poor actor as well.

Right Divider
May 29th, 2015, 11:33 AM
No, he couldn't because, there is nothing eternal about man but death.
Says one that constantly takes scripture RIPPED out of its CONTEXT to try and deceive the simple.

Stripe
May 29th, 2015, 11:33 AM
Amazing how little attention this post has gotten. Even as a thought experiment, this should be thought provoking. Stop and think- maybe there is something that is not quite right in your (Christian) theology?
It's not thought provoking at all.

It's simple; murderers should be executed.

Ben Masada
May 29th, 2015, 11:38 AM
Says one that constantly takes scripture RIPPED out of its CONTEXT to try and deceive the simple.

No, says the Word of God in Genesis 3:22. Man cannot live forever. So, he must die and be forever dead.

Ben Masada
May 29th, 2015, 11:40 AM
It's not thought provoking at all.

It's simple; murderers should be executed.

Hitler was a murder and he executed himself. What more would you want to happen to him? Once dead, there is no more pain.

Stripe
May 29th, 2015, 11:48 AM
Hitler was a murder and he executed himself. What more would you want to happen to him? Once dead, there is no more pain.

The "challenge" was aimed at Christians. It said that people could get away with anything and then go to heaven with a deathbed conversion. While this is technically true, it ignores the consequences of the conditions the challenge requires: In a Christian society, the deathbed conversion would be just before the murderer is executed.

Ben Masada
May 29th, 2015, 12:01 PM
The "challenge" was aimed at Christians. It said that people could get away with anything and then go to heaven with a deathbed conversion. While this is technically true, it ignores the consequences of the conditions the challenge requires: In a Christian society, the deathbed conversion would be just before the murderer is executed.

Things of the Christian religion! What about if one died without the last confession? Where else would he or she supposed to go besides the grave? Christianity never ceases amazing me!

Stripe
May 29th, 2015, 12:03 PM
Things of the Christian religion! What about if one died without the last confession? Where else would he or she supposed to go besides the grave? Christianity never ceases amazing me!

What? :AMR:

Nazaroo
May 29th, 2015, 12:06 PM
New Evidence Discovered that Hitler is in Hell!;




https://ivarfjeld.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/4836hitlereugeniopacelli.jpg


http://www.remnantofgod.org/NaziRCC/hitler_cardinal4.jpg

https://ivarfjeld.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/nazipriestssalutehitler1.jpg

Nazaroo
May 29th, 2015, 12:10 PM
Things of the Christian religion! ...Christianity never ceases amazing me!

Lets check the alternative!


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-rYnoUJHIpbs/VWirfLverOI/AAAAAAAAAwQ/IdNwFQPe9uA/s640/Hitlerbook.jpg

Ben Masada
May 29th, 2015, 12:15 PM
New Evidence Discovered that Hitler is in Hell!;



New! That SOB is in hell since the day he executed himself. Of course, you mean the Christian hell. No he is not. He is in the Jewish hell aka grave with no hope ever to return. (II Sam. 12:23; Isa. 26:14; Job 10:21)

Nazaroo
May 29th, 2015, 12:22 PM
New! That SOB is in hell since the day he executed himself.
Of course, you mean the Christian hell. No he is not.
He is in the Jewish hell aka grave with no hope ever to return. (II Sam. 12:23; Isa. 26:14; Job 10:21)

Sheol is indeed the grave.

After the Resurrection all will be forced to return, hope or not.

Daniel:

“And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt” (Dan. 12:2).
Due to the clarity of its language, this passage is troubling to those who are repelled by the consequences suggested.


Yeshua:

"Do not be surprised at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth — those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation." (John 5:28-29).

jamie
May 29th, 2015, 12:29 PM
New! That SOB is in hell since the day he executed himself. Of course, you mean the Christian hell. No he is not. He is in the Jewish hell aka grave with no hope ever to return. (II Sam. 12:23; Isa. 26:14; Job 10:21)



If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait till my change comes. (Job 14:14 NKJV)

Ben Masada
May 29th, 2015, 12:42 PM
1 - Sheol is indeed the grave. After the Resurrection all will be forced to return, hope or not.

2 - Daniel: “And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt” (Dan. 12:2).
Due to the clarity of its language, this passage is troubling to those who are repelled by the consequences suggested.

3 - Yeshua: "Do not be surprised at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth — those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (John 5:28-29).



1 - Not Jesus, my friend. Jesus was a Jew and he knew that once dead no one will ever return. (Isa. 26:14; II Sam. 12:23; Job 10:21)

2 - Daniel was not speaking of literal bodily resurrection but of a metaphorical resurrection from the graves among the Gentiles. That's the vision Ezekiel had of the dry bones. (Ezek. 37:12) It happens that, according to Isa. 53:8,9, when Jews are forced into exile, this, for Isaiah was akin to being cut off from the land of the living aka Israel and graves be assigned to them among the nations. At the end of the exile, the Lord opens up those graves and brings them back to the Land of Israel. That's what the Jewish resurrection is. The Jews who refused to return, shall live in disgrace like the slave who once given his freedom he chooses to continue in servitude to his master. It didn't help though as the majority chose to remain behind.

3 - This is not from Jesus but from Paul a former Hellenist Jew which was paraphrased by John also a Hellenist who wrote the gospel attributed to John.

Ben Masada
May 29th, 2015, 12:49 PM
If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait till my change comes. (Job 14:14 NKJV)

Well my dear, you will wait forever and, the only change will be the turning of your body into dust. (Eccles. 12:7) That turning Job was talking about was the reversing of his health condition to live as before which indeed it happened. The truth is that he did not die of his physical illness.

Dan Emanuel
May 29th, 2015, 01:15 PM
Why do you consistently get these BACKWARDS?

You're is a contraction meaning: YOU ARE
Your is a possessive meaning: It belong to youDid you really just scold me for something you yourself cannot even get right in the post in which you scold me?


Daniel

Dan Emanuel
May 29th, 2015, 01:16 PM
No, he couldn't because, there is nothing eternal about man but death.What a sad existence you must lead.


Daniel

Dan Emanuel
May 29th, 2015, 01:18 PM
I'd say you could have done so, though with that sort of horror on your soul I'd wonder if or how you would ever be inclined and beyond that point I don't believe anyone indwelled by Christ would subsequently participate in genocide, meaning that as hypotheticals go it's a foggy stretch and needless. Better to simply say that the point of grace is forgiveness of sin and that one sin or a hundred is met by it.I really think that Heir drive's home the point in a bold, powerful, and accurate way, though you'res and other's suggestion's aren't wrong, by any mean's. :)


Daniel

Dan Emanuel
May 29th, 2015, 01:23 PM
In scripture, Peter is never referred to as 'pastor'.Pastor --"Origin
"late Middle English: from Anglo-Norman French pastour, from Latin pastor "‘shepherd,’ from past- ‘fed, grazed,’ from the verb pascere
He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.
He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.3 time's.

You're a deceiver.:yawn:


Daniel

Dan Emanuel
May 29th, 2015, 01:24 PM
Yep, and a poor actor as well.Jesus called the Pharisee's actor's.

So thank's.


Daniel

Dan Emanuel
May 29th, 2015, 01:25 PM
No, says the Word of God in Genesis 3:22. Man cannot live forever. So, he must die and be forever dead.New bodies. Kingdom come. Word of God.


Daniel

Dan Emanuel
May 29th, 2015, 01:26 PM
Hitler was a murder and he executed himself. What more would you want to happen to him?Nothing.

Once dead, there is no more pain.You hope.


Daniel

Dan Emanuel
May 29th, 2015, 01:30 PM
Christianity never ceases amazing me!Good. It shouldn't.


Daniel

Dan Emanuel
May 29th, 2015, 01:31 PM
Sheol is indeed the grave.

After the Resurrection all will be forced to return, hope or not.

Daniel:
“And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt” (Dan. 12:2).
Due to the clarity of its language, this passage is troubling to those who are repelled by the consequences suggested.


Yeshua:

"Do not be surprised at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth — those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation." (John 5:28-29).


Amen!


Daniel

ttruscott
June 1st, 2015, 05:50 PM
Thats a different topic though, right?
Apart from you're Calvinism...I think we agree.


Daniel

Nope - they hate me as I won't tip toe thru their tulip patch! :) I have the aspects of Calvinism that are actually biblical and not theological speculation and blasphemy but not enough to be called a Calvinist.

Peace, Ted

ttruscott
June 1st, 2015, 05:58 PM
I believe that by giving man free will, God allows all, even His elect, to commit all sorts of evil if they so desire

Our free will did not survive our becoming enslaved to evil by our first free will decision to go against HIS will. It is not restored until we are reborn in Christ: Galatians 5:1 It is for freedom [of the will] that Christ has set us free [from the addiction of sin]. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

Peace, Ted

Lazy afternoon
August 1st, 2015, 08:33 PM
By Heir--
As one who has trusted the Lord believing the word of truth, the gospel of my salvation (1 Corinthians 15: 1-4 KJV), I could murder 6,000,000 Jews and it would not change the fact that I am a saved and sealed member of the Body of Christ (Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV)!

You have never been sealed, to be able to say such a thing.

Tit 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Luk 6:43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Luk 6:44 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.
Luk 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.


LA

Dan Emanuel
August 1st, 2015, 08:48 PM
By Heir--
As one who has trusted the Lord believing the word of truth, the gospel of my salvation (1 Corinthians 15: 1-4 KJV), I could murder 6,000,000 Jews and it would not change the fact that I am a saved and sealed member of the Body of Christ (Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV)!

You have never been sealed, to be able to say such a thing....False.


Daniel

1.0

Totton Linnet
August 1st, 2015, 09:00 PM
I believe that by giving man free will, God allows all, even His elect, to commit all sorts of evil if they so desire

Exactly so, this is what Freewill doctrine teaches, that sin is God's fault. But God did not give man freewill He forbade.



...what part of forbade spells freewill?

heir
August 1st, 2015, 09:22 PM
By Heir--
As one who has trusted the Lord believing the word of truth, the gospel of my salvation (1 Corinthians 15: 1-4 KJV), I could murder 6,000,000 Jews and it would not change the fact that I am a saved and sealed member of the Body of Christ (Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV)!

You have never been sealed, to be able to say such a thing.

Tit 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Luk 6:43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Luk 6:44 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.
Luk 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.


LAYou and those like you who think there is anything you can DO to gain and/or lose salvation are the ones that profess you know God, but in works deny Him as you've never had a moment in your life when you have trusted the Lord after hearing and believing the word of truth (you're too busy working to save yourself) and consequently have never been saved and sealed.

Dan Emanuel
August 1st, 2015, 10:47 PM
The rich man (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_man_and_Lazarus) is Hitler (Luke 16:25 KJV). Matthew 19:24 KJV.


Daniel

1.2

Lazy afternoon
August 1st, 2015, 11:16 PM
You and those like you who think there is anything you can DO to gain and/or lose salvation are the ones that profess you know God, but in works deny Him as you've never had a moment in your life when you have trusted the Lord after hearing and believing the word of truth (you're too busy working to save yourself) and consequently have never been saved and sealed.

Lying about my position to excuse your ignorance of Gods word will not help you.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

LA

heir
August 1st, 2015, 11:21 PM
Lying about my position to excuse your ignorance of Gods word will not help you.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
VS. those of us in the Body of Christ who are complete in Him and forgiven all trespasses!

Colossians 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

I don't have to lie about you. You stick your foot in your mouth everytime you open it.

Dan Emanuel
August 1st, 2015, 11:22 PM
...Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?This mean's its the actual blood of Jesus that we drink when we take communion. This mean's "I don't go to church."


Daniel

1.0

Stuu
August 4th, 2015, 04:15 AM
So say's Heir (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4325389#post4325389):
"As one who has trusted the Lord believing the word of truth, the gospel of my salvation, I could murder 6,000,000 Jews and it would not change the fact that I am a saved and sealed member of the Body of Christ!"I agree. If Adolf Hitler could say the same thing here that Heir has said, honestly, then he too could have eternal life.


Daniel
"I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work."

- Adolf Hitler, Speech to the Reichstag 1936


Isn't it a matter of opinion what 'Fighting for the Lord's work" consists of?

Stuart

oatmeal
August 4th, 2015, 04:29 AM
So say's Heir (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4325389#post4325389):
"As one who has trusted the Lord believing the word of truth, the gospel of my salvation, I could murder 6,000,000 Jews and it would not change the fact that I am a saved and sealed member of the Body of Christ!"I agree. If Adolf Hitler could say the same thing here that Heir has said, honestly, then he too could have eternal life.


Daniel

Receiving God's gift of salvation is done by meeting two requirements.

They are found in Romans 10:9-10

1. confess with your mouth the lord Jesus

2. believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead

Some people do that much and stop there.

The do not choose to do the second part of I Timothy 2:4 "come to the knowledge of the truth" Knowledge here means precise knowledge that influences the knower.

Having received the gift of eternal life does not guarantee that any individual will do the second part.

There are, in fact, many Christians on this website that do not even know if they have received the gift of eternal life, they do not know if they have eternal life, yet God's word says we can know and we should know. I John 5:13

We can learn how to know that if we want to. We can be taught how to know.

God wants believers to know that they have eternal life

That is part of "coming to the knowledge of the truth" knowledge that effects the knower

King cobra
August 4th, 2015, 08:25 AM
"I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work."

- Adolf Hitler, Speech to the Reichstag 1936
Called "opportunistic pragmatism."



Isn't it a matter of opinion what 'Fighting for the Lord's work" consists of?

Stuart
Yes, but only one opinion counts in the end.

Town Heretic
August 4th, 2015, 11:53 AM
"I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work."

- Adolf Hitler, Speech to the Reichstag 1936


Isn't it a matter of opinion what 'Fighting for the Lord's work" consists of?

Stuart

You should educate yourself on what Hitler actually thought about Christianity and most religion. His confidants have set that table. He used the above like Wallace used the Confederate flag. Except Wallace may have actually believed in the Confederate flag.

Stuu
August 4th, 2015, 12:51 PM
You should educate yourself on what Hitler actually thought about Christianity and most religion. His confidants have set that table. He used the above like Wallace used the Confederate flag. Except Wallace may have actually believed in the Confederate flag.
How do most christians use christianity?

Whether they are shooting abortion clinic doctors or cleaning the pastor's residence, they believe they are doing the LORD's Work.

I've never met a committed christian who wasn't either self-flagellating for failing to do the LORD's work, or was doing what he or she thought the LORD's work was.

So who is to say what that is?

Stuart

Town Heretic
August 4th, 2015, 12:57 PM
How do most christians use christianity?
To better their lives and the lives of those around them, I'd hope. Though use is a funny word to attach. Hitler wasn't a Christian, of course, so like a great many who don't inhabit the context he held them in contempt and used rhetoric to attempt to move them toward his ends, to the extent he could manage it. He was a top tier manipulator.

And Christianity is a proper noun. :e4e:

Stuu
August 4th, 2015, 01:00 PM
Called "opportunistic pragmatism."
So you know you can only rely on atheists not to be using a religious mythology in this way.

But Hitler filled Mein Kampf with this stuff. It is also a matter of opinion as to whether he was genuine or opportunistic way back when he wrote that very ideological book. His strutting in front of the Reichstag does sound very opportunistic to me, but the earlier stuff about doing the Lord's Work is solid, even if he was mad.


Yes, but only one opinion counts in the end.
And I am very glad not to be forced to be typing in German to you now. But that was the work of the Allied forces, despite all the prayers the opportunistic Catholic church sent to Hitler on his birthdays.

Stuart

chrysostom
August 4th, 2015, 01:09 PM
So say's Heir (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4325389#post4325389):
"As one who has trusted the Lord believing the word of truth, the gospel of my salvation, I could murder 6,000,000 Jews and it would not change the fact that I am a saved and sealed member of the Body of Christ!"I agree. If Adolf Hitler could say the same thing here that Heir has said, honestly, then he too could have eternal life.


Daniel

are you saying he could do that
and
be saved without repenting?

Stuu
August 4th, 2015, 01:13 PM
Hitler wasn't a Christian, of course
You might like to fact-check that.

Stuart

gcthomas
August 4th, 2015, 01:20 PM
You might like to fact-check that.

Stuart

He was baptised and confirmed a Catholic, but I expect the Church didn't claim him after he sent Jewish catholics to the has chambers.

Town Heretic
August 4th, 2015, 01:37 PM
You might like to fact-check that.

Stuart
That was my advice to you. I suppose you think Stalin remained Orthodox too. :rolleyes:

"Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure."

"So it's not opportune to hurl ourselves now into a struggle with the Churches. A slow death has something comforting about The dogma of Christianity gets worn away before the advances of science. Religion will have to make more and more concessions. Gradually the myths crumble. All that's left is to prove that in nature there is no frontier between the organic and the inorganic. When understanding of the universe has become widespread, when the majority of men know that the stars are not sources of light but worlds, perhaps inhabited worlds like ours, then the Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity."

"The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity."

Those are all from Hitler.

Stuu
August 5th, 2015, 12:40 AM
He was baptised and confirmed a Catholic, but I expect the Church didn't claim him after he sent Jewish catholics to the has chambers.
As I understand it they had no choice. It was either accept Hitler's terms or see some kind of dismantling or rearrangement along Nazi lines. Hence the RCC took the convenient route and the nuncio to Berlin would send birthday greetings every year.

RationalWiki (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Positive_Christianity) has this to say:

Positive Christianity was primarily the brainchild of Adolf Hitler and Nazi ideologue Alfred Rosenberg. Hitler's relationship to Christianity was complex. He was raised Catholic and even thought of becoming a priest at one point (a claim denied by Goebbels), but later came to despise the Roman Catholic Church (though he never officially left it). At the same time, however, he associated atheism with Bolshevism and "Jewish materialism". Rosenberg, meanwhile, was far more overt in his rejection of Christianity, viewing it as a religion of weakness that trapped the Aryan race under original sin (he believed that Germans were "born noble") while declaring all races to be equal before God, and called for a new "religion of the blood" derived from ancient pagan faiths that would elevate the "Nordic soul" as the master race and God's chosen people.

This was in contrast to Hitler, who viewed paganism with disdain and often ridiculed the mysticism of Rosenberg and Himmler. Furthermore, the ideology and rituals of the Nazi party were themselves quasi-religious and, in some senses, a competitor with Christianity. At the very least, Nazism included elements that are incompatible with Christianity as it is usually taught, some of which were derived from other religions. Many leading Nazis, such as Rosenberg and Martin Bormann, viewed Christianity as incompatible with Nazism, owing chiefly to its Jewish influences.

Nevertheless, practical politics made it desirable for Hitler to make his "peace" with Christianity and specifically with the Catholic Church. The primary appeal of the Nazis was to conservative/populist middle and lower middle class Germans and Austrians, who also tended to be observant Christians; for example, over half of the Waffen-SS were Catholics. As a result, Hitler made frequent public affirmations of Christian faith, stating in 1928 that the Nazis "tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity ... in fact our movement is Christian."

Meantime in Ante Pavelic's wartime Croatian puppet Nazi dictatorship, Franciscan monks were forcing conversions at gunpoint.

Then there were the Vatican-sponsored ratlines...

Christopher Hitchens enjoyed challenging his audiences to come up with the number of Nazi leaders who were excommunicated from the RCC. His answer was one: Josef Goebbels, for marrying a protestant.

Stuart

Stuu
August 5th, 2015, 12:45 AM
That was my advice to you. I suppose you think Stalin remained Orthodox too.
Just goes to show the kind of thinking that must lead you to, and out of, the seminary. Stalin became a zealot for a different kind of corrupt ideology.


"Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure."

"So it's not opportune to hurl ourselves now into a struggle with the Churches. A slow death has something comforting about The dogma of Christianity gets worn away before the advances of science. Religion will have to make more and more concessions. Gradually the myths crumble. All that's left is to prove that in nature there is no frontier between the organic and the inorganic. When understanding of the universe has become widespread, when the majority of men know that the stars are not sources of light but worlds, perhaps inhabited worlds like ours, then the Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity."

"The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity."

Those are all from Hitler.
It's no problem to me if you wish to argue that people who self-identify as christian aren't really christians.

What is a christian, would you say? What definitely is not the Lord's Work?

Stuart

Grosnick Marowbe
August 5th, 2015, 01:21 AM
How do most christians use christianity?

Whether they are shooting abortion clinic doctors or cleaning the pastor's residence, they believe they are doing the LORD's Work.

I've never met a committed christian who wasn't either self-flagellating for failing to do the LORD's work, or was doing what he or she thought the LORD's work was.

So who is to say what that is?

Stuart

Certainly not an Atheist!

Ben Masada
August 5th, 2015, 01:42 AM
What a sad existence you must lead.

Daniel

The opposite is rather true. The difference between you and me is that I refuse to live in your world of illusions and you in my world of reality. Hence, what a sad existence you must lead. Sorry, I forgot to quote your slogan. Illusion must be sweet for those who live by faith.

Ben Masada
August 5th, 2015, 01:50 AM
New bodies. Kingdom come. Word of God.

Daniel



No wonder Paul said that Christians must walk by faith and not by sight. (II Cor. 5:7) It must be sweet to walk in a world of illusions although in the dark. To walk by sight is to walk with understanding.

Ben Masada
August 5th, 2015, 01:54 AM
Nothing.
You hope.

Daniel

Why don't you read a little of medical science? You will find evidence
that with death there is no pain.

Stuu
August 5th, 2015, 03:17 AM
Certainly not an Atheist!
Indeed. No need to equivocate there.

Of course many, many atheists are engaged in working for the wellbeing of their communities, their fellow humans and the planet, often working alongside christians and people of other delusions. No need for 'The Lord's Work' in any of that.

Stuart

rougueone
August 5th, 2015, 07:22 AM
Rather, a seal: the earnest (guarantee) of my inheritance!

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

I always enjoy your explicit and well focused use of Gods words.
This particular Scripture in my 20 years of knowing Jesus is so rarely exposed. It has incredible value and is so important regarding Gods promise to HIS people.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth,-- the gospel of your salvation( The Gospel that saved, permanent salvation) -----: in whom also after that ye believed, ( Believed )--( Then--ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, ( salvation complete, the work is to come. Yes. But Salvation is guaranteed. Guaranteed with a "SEAL". Gods Seal--irrevocable ) .

Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest ( Showing or expressing sincerity or seriousness: ) , of our inheritancee until the redemption of the purchased possession,( Our self, the person, sealed eternally ) , unto the praise of his glory.[/QUOTE]

rougueone
August 5th, 2015, 07:30 AM
"I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work."

- Adolf Hitler, Speech to the Reichstag 1936


Isn't it a matter of opinion what 'Fighting for the Lord's work" consists of?

Stuart

Many, many times Hitler believed he was doing the work of "God". And every time a assassination failed on Hitler, Hitler felt he was divinely protected.

rougueone
August 5th, 2015, 07:40 AM
Hitler was a murder and he executed himself. What more would you want to happen to him? Once dead, there is no more pain.

Ben,
Our flesh dies only. We are eternally created. Eternal. Oncne the flesh dies, our eternal life continues. And depending on where a man positioned himself, will depend on whether that man lives eternally in pain or bliss.

rougueone
August 5th, 2015, 07:45 AM
New! That SOB is in hell since the day he executed himself. Of course, you mean the Christian hell. No he is not. He is in the Jewish hell aka grave with no hope ever to return. (II Sam. 12:23; Isa. 26:14; Job 10:21)

Sorry Ben. There are two places a person goes. Neither is exclusive to any religion or culture. It's either heaven or the Lake of Fire. And it's eternal Ben.

rougueone
August 5th, 2015, 07:46 AM
Heir professed the power of our Lord over sin and death in a radical way, and it evoke's very strong reaction's to it. In Christian theology, they're is no worse sin that crucifying the Lord of glory, and His death atoned even for this sin! The 1st Christian's were all Peters brethren and you're ancestor's, and when they understood what they had done, and realized the unconditional mercy offered to them, they believed! Peter led [three] thousand of them to faith in a single day.

And as I recommended to Horn, check out what Peter actually teaches us about these difficult question's today. He is a blessing, and a caring, practical genius.


Daniel

1.1

Dan,
Why don't you enlighten us to what Peter taught. You seem to know a lot.

Ben Masada
August 5th, 2015, 08:44 AM
Ben,
Our flesh dies only. We are eternally created. Eternal. Oncne the flesh dies, our eternal life continues. And depending on where a man positioned himself, will depend on whether that man lives eternally in pain or bliss.

Take a look at Gen. 3:22,23. Do you know why Adam & Eve had to leave the Garden of Eden? To prevent them from eating of the tree of life and live forever. The point here is that man was not created to live forever, because eternal, only God is. There is nothing eternal about man. Every thing that has had a beginning must have an end. Only God had no beginning and will have no end. We, humans, once dead will never return. (Isa. 26:14; II Sam. 12:23; Job 10:21)

Ben Masada
August 5th, 2015, 08:48 AM
Sorry Ben. There are two places a person goes. Neither is exclusive to any religion or culture. It's either heaven or the Lake of Fire. And it's eternal Ben.

Well, if you like to live under that fear of eternal hell-fire, go ahead and do it. I prefer the eternal sleeping of death when I am 120 bzrat HaShem.

Dan Emanuel
August 8th, 2015, 08:46 PM
Dan,
Why don't you enlighten us to what Peter taught. You seem to know a lot.Sure. This excerpt from the Catechism (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm#839) is a good place to start:

The Church and non-Christians

839 Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways.
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People.
When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, the first to hear the Word of God. The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ," "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims.
The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day.842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:
All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city.843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:
Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world. According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.848 Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.


Daniel

1.2

Dan Emanuel
August 8th, 2015, 08:52 PM
Why don't you read a little of medical science? You will find evidence
that with death there is no pain.

Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Daniel

1.0

Dan Emanuel
August 8th, 2015, 08:54 PM
No wonder Paul said that Christians must walk by faith and not by sight. (II Cor. 5:7) It must be sweet to walk in a world of illusions although in the dark. To walk by sight is to walk with understanding.Nope. To walk by sight is to live as an animal, and not as a human being.


Daniel

1.0

Dan Emanuel
August 8th, 2015, 08:56 PM
The opposite is rather true. The difference between you and me is that I refuse to live in your world of illusions and you in my world of reality. Hence, what a sad existence you must lead. Sorry, I forgot to quote your slogan. Illusion must be sweet for those who live by faith.I'm getting the impression that some of you're sarcasm has some truth in it. :idunno:


Daniel

1.0

Dan Emanuel
August 8th, 2015, 09:00 PM
are you saying he could do that
and
be saved without repenting?It depend's a lot upon the following.

Show me where he was excommunicated. I did some internet searching and I found some rumor's but nothing from the Holy Catholic Church, and nothing from a newspaper of record, saying that the [Catholic] Nazi's were all summarily excommunicated --which would have included Hitler and Goebbel's --so I'd be eager to see what you can come up with. Is it true, that Hitler and the [Catholic] Nazi's were excommunicated by the Church?


Daniel

1.2

Dan Emanuel
August 8th, 2015, 09:04 PM
...God wants believers to know that they have eternal life....I agree with that. Peter give's us some great counsel in how to go about knowing that, too.


Daniel

1.0

Dan Emanuel
August 8th, 2015, 09:05 PM
"I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work."

- Adolf Hitler, Speech to the Reichstag 1936


Isn't it a matter of opinion what 'Fighting for the Lord's work" consists of?

StuartI don't know. Why are you changing the subject?


Daniel

1.0

Stuu
August 8th, 2015, 09:14 PM
I don't know. Why are you changing the subject?


Daniel

1.0

How was I changing the subject?

Stuart

Dan Emanuel
August 8th, 2015, 09:21 PM
How was I changing the subject?

StuartI said "Hitler could have had eternal life," etc., and you asked, "Isn't it a matter of opinion what 'Fighting for the Lord's work" consists of?"

:idunno:

Are you trying to suggest that Hitler did nothing worthy of eternal torment? I understand you reject the notion, but for grin's, pretending that heaven and hell are real destination's, are you suggesting that Hitler did nothing deserving of hell?


Daniel

1.0

Stuu
August 8th, 2015, 09:47 PM
I said "Hitler could have had eternal life," etc., and you asked, "Isn't it a matter of opinion what 'Fighting for the Lord's work" consists of?"

:idunno:

Are you trying to suggest that Hitler did nothing worthy of eternal torment? I understand you reject the notion, but for grin's, pretending that heaven and hell are real destination's, are you suggesting that Hitler did nothing deserving of hell?


Daniel

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Firstly, I don't know where you stand on 'works', but surely 'Fighting for the Lord's work' is directly relevant to that.

Secondly, if the actions of Hitler do actually consist of 'Fighting for the Lord's work', as he claimed, and even if you aren't a 'works' person, then isn't that just as relevant to the acquisition of this fantasy existence, 'eternal life' (whatever the heck that means)? What if your god is fine with Hitler doing away with the Jews? It might be a neutral act as far as that god is concerned. How many Syrians did your god supposedly kill? How many Ethiopians? How many Hittites were ordered dead?

Stuart

Dan Emanuel
August 8th, 2015, 09:58 PM
Firstly, I don't know where you stand on 'works', but surely 'Fighting for the Lord's work' is directly relevant to that...Again, unless your suggesting that Hitler did nothing evil, nothing wrong, nothing sinful; then I do not understand you're tack here.

...Secondly, if the actions of Hitler do actually consist of 'Fighting for the Lord's work', as he claimed, and even if you aren't a 'works' person, then isn't that just as relevant to the acquisition of this fantasy existence, 'eternal life' (whatever the heck that means)?...So that is what your suggesting then? Thats . . . interesting, but it is off-topic, since I'm presuming in the O.P. that we all agree that what Hitler did was not good, writ large.

...What if your god is fine with Hitler doing away with the Jews? It might be a neutral act as far as that god is concerned. How many Syrians did your god supposedly kill? How many Ethiopians? How many Hittites were ordered dead?

Stuart:AMR:

What are you on about here?


Daniel

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Dan Emanuel
August 8th, 2015, 11:59 PM
"...three fifths of all other Persons," are still found in the Constitution, Article 1, Section 2. Nothing can remove them. Section 2 of Amendment XIV is the correct thing to do in such case. You would need to amend the Constitution to grant the power to Congress to literally expunge those word's from the document's. Maybe that will happen 1 day, not in our lifetime probably. For now, we're stuck with it. Our sin, or the evidence of it. Its not going anywhere.

The sin here is both against American and Christian value's. American's believe in right's. Equality. Christian's believe in equality, and in the Word of God, which say's to not be racist. The Bible define's racism very precisely, and say's don't do it! Article 1, Section 2 of the United State's Constitution is direct evidence of American and Christian sinner's sinning. Repenting doesn't make the sin go away. Thats why some people make a big deal about repenting, or about not repenting. Our sin doesn't change, just because we repent, anymore than "three fifth's" change's, just because of the 14th Amendment. But something happen's to our sin when we believe in Jesus Christ [Matthew 18:3 KJV].


Daniel

[1.4]

Stuu
August 9th, 2015, 12:48 AM
So that is what your suggesting then? Thats . . . interesting, but it is off-topic, since I'm presuming in the O.P. that we all agree that what Hitler did was not good, writ large.
I'm sure we all agree that the Nazi regime perpetrated the greatest single atrocity against humanity in its genocide of the Jews and mass murder of so many others. But my questions remain: Would your god agree with us?, and What are the criteria for acceptance into eternity?

The point has already been made that the Catholics didn't excommunicate Hitler. So presumably they either think he died in a state of grace as they call it, or he was disqualified from the Heaven Club on some grounds that does not require excommunication.

My final point there, if it needs making obvious, is that given the Judeo-christian god's habit of killing humans (up to 25 million if you believe estimates based on the Jewish bible) is mass killing actually a barrier to entry to 'eternity', whatever that is.

Stuart

Dan Emanuel
August 9th, 2015, 01:08 AM
I'm sure we all agree that the Nazi regime perpetrated the greatest single atrocity against humanity in its genocide of the Jews and mass murder of so many others. But my questions remain: Would your god agree with us?...Sure. Top ten anyway.

...and What are the criteria for acceptance into eternity?...Entrance to the eternal kingdom is granted by believing in Jesus Christ as a child does (Matthew 18:3 KJV).

...The point has already been made that the Catholics didn't excommunicate Hitler. So presumably they either think he died in a state of grace as they call it, or he was disqualified from the Heaven Club on some grounds that does not require excommunication...Or their were sufficient ground's for formal excommunication and for whatever reason the Church did not do it. I'm not convinced that formal excommunication didn't happen, but I'm waiting to see if somebody can locate some reliable, authoritative source that it occurred. They're are also old Church law's floating around out their that indicate that certain choice's, when made by Catholic's --by there very commission --entail actual, automatic excommunication. So presumably Hitler and his fellow-Catholic Nazi's detonated 1 or two of these Trip Wire's.

...My final point there, if it needs making obvious, is that given the Judeo-christian god's habit of killing humans (up to 25 million if you believe estimates based on the Jewish bible) is mass killing actually a barrier to entry to 'eternity', whatever that is....I can see that you'd like to argue theodicy/problem of evil.


Daniel

1.3

Stuu
August 9th, 2015, 03:43 AM
Or their were sufficient ground's for formal excommunication and for whatever reason the Church did not do it. I'm not convinced that formal excommunication didn't happen, but I'm waiting to see if somebody can locate some reliable, authoritative source that it occurred. They're are also old Church law's floating around out their that indicate that certain choice's, when made by Catholic's --by there very commission --entail actual, automatic excommunication. So presumably Hitler and his fellow-Catholic Nazi's detonated 1 or two of these Trip Wire's.
All I can find is a suggestion that all 'Nazi leaders' were excommunicated on mass in 1931. But that makes little sense because Goebbels was by that time a Nazi leader but was excommunicated in 1932 for marrying Magda. Why would they excommunicate him twice?

The Catholic and protestant churches opposed Hitler in the early 1930s but later found it convenient to support him in his opposition to communist Russia. There is also the underlying question of the Catholic charge of deicide against the Jews, which wasn't renounced until Vatican II in the 1960s. From that point of view, the killing of the Jews could well have been seen by some Catholics as the Lord's work.

You could be right about tripwires, but equally the grounds for excommunication seem to be very arbitrary. Are you excommunicated if you murder? What if you are a rape victim who has an abortion? That latter case is a prime possibility.


I can see that you'd like to argue theodicy/problem of evil.
As an atheist I'm always amused that the invention of the Judeo-christian god meant the invention of paradoxes like the problem of evil. Eliminate the god belief and you eliminate the problem!


Daniel

Dan Emanuel
August 10th, 2015, 10:12 AM
All I can find is a suggestion that all 'Nazi leaders' were excommunicated on mass in 1931...I think I found the same thing.

...But that makes little sense because Goebbels was by that time a Nazi leader but was excommunicated in 1932 for marrying Magda. Why would they excommunicate him twice?...I don't know anything about this.

...The Catholic and protestant churches opposed Hitler in the early 1930s but later found it convenient to support him in his opposition to communist Russia...Naturally, since the Nazi's weren't outright targeting the Church like the Communist's were.

...There is also the underlying question of the Catholic charge of deicide against the Jews, which wasn't renounced until Vatican II in the 1960s...The Jewish people have been spoken of positively by the Church for almost 1 thousand year's by now. Vatican II provided more clarity on the matter, but they're is already sufficient clarity in M.O. in Church history.

...From that point of view, the killing of the Jews could well have been seen by some Catholics as the Lord's work...Certainly not by good or informed Catholic's. This was a bit of a reach, Stuart.

...You could be right about tripwires, but equally the grounds for excommunication seem to be very arbitrary...From what I remember about seeing them myself, the ground's didn't seem arbitrary to me. Murder was their, i.e.

...Are you excommunicated if you murder?...I believe so.

...What if you are a rape victim who has an abortion? That latter case is a prime possibility...I don't know that abortion is 1 of the excommunication Trip Wire's. It may be, but I'd guess not.

...As an atheist I'm always amused that the invention of the Judeo-christian god meant the invention of paradoxes like the problem of evil. Eliminate the god belief and you eliminate the problem!...Are you suggesting that Hitler couldn't have happened in an atheists world?

Because Hitler happened in this 1. So the problem of evil is real.

...DanielYour not me.


Daniel

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