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MannyO
April 13th, 2015, 04:08 PM
Have any of you heard of Cliff Knechtle? He's an apologetic pastor who visits college campuses, discussing theological issues with students. I agree with much of what he says - such as his arguments for the existence of God, and his arguments against moral relativism. Though much of what he teaches is intellectually sound, there's also much falseness that he espouses, such as the 'acceptance' of Jesus Christ, and everlasting Hell.

I was watching one of his videos the other day. In the video a person asks him about Hell and he responds with an analogy. Through the analogy Cliffe attempts to explain why unending Hell, is a just, valid and deserving punishment. His reasoning is that offences committed against higher authority figures deserve more severe punishments. Thus an offence committed against God - the highest authority - demands the most severe punishment.

Here is the video that contains Cliffe's analogy. It starts from 16.05, ending at 19:13:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdlgI6oh7oM

Let me ask the following question, in response to Cliffe's analogy:

Why is that crimes comitted against higher authorities (e.g. police officer, president) should be deserving of harsher penalties or punishments?

Is it because society says so? If so, what makes society right?

I believe that Cliffe's analogy is faulty and incorrect. He seems to imply that the more authority a person has, the more valuable or worthy he or she is. But don't we, as humans, all have the same level of value? What is it about authority that gives a person more (perceived) value?

Isn't it unfair to say that the penalty for hitting the president should be greater than hitting a teacher? If I hit the president, why should the value of my penalty go up dramatically just because he has more authority? I believe that the penalty for hitting the president or hitting the chief of police or hitting a teacher, should be the same. All are humans and therefore have the same value. So the value of the punishment should be the same. It should unaffected by status, titles, authority, age, race, or any other such external factor. Our legal system(s) should be objective.

If a civilian who abuses an authority figure should receive a more severe punishment; should those in authority who commit an abusive crime also receive a more severe punishment? If the president hits a common civilian, should he be dealt with more severely, because of the authority he possesses?

Now, we know that the highest authority is God. When we 'slap God in the face' (as Cliffe puts it), offending Him, by breaking His Law, His solution is of course to punish us. This is so that we might learn from punishment. But if a person is forever being punished - via eternal hell - how will they ever reach the end goal, for which that punishment was intended? Even human authority figures grasp the concept of remedial punishment. How much more does God? In dealing with a rebellious child a parent might turn the child over, give a few slaps, and that's it. They don't perpetually slap their child. If wicked human beings (Matthew 7:11) don't even go to such torturous lengths, what makes Cliffe think that the good God (Luke 18:19) would perpetually punish His own creations? And not even just continuously punish them, but punish them in the most wicked of ways - roasting and burning in inextinguishable fire! The doctrine of Hell is not even punishment, it's abuse. Far be it for the loving God, who is Love, to abuse anyone. And to do so would essentially mean He'd be abusing Himself, because we are all, to some extent, extensions of Him.

jamie
April 13th, 2015, 04:23 PM
Cliff's point on eternal punishment is moot.


He has not dealt with us according to our sins nor punished us according to our iniquities. For as the heavens are high above the earth so great is His mercy toward those who fear Him.

As far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us. (Psalm 103:10-12 NKJV)

Robert Pate
April 13th, 2015, 04:26 PM
All that Adam and Eve did was eat forbidden fruit and caused the fall of all of humanity.

musterion
April 13th, 2015, 04:52 PM
much falseness...such as the 'acceptance' of Jesus Christ"Accept" has essentially the same meaning as "receive," which is abundantly seen as quite biblical here:

http://biblehub.com/greek/edexanto_1209.htm

So...


KJV: And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

HCSB: ...and with every unrighteous deception among those who are perishing. They perish because they did not accept the love of the truth in order to be saved.Those upon whom God will take flaming vengeance refuse to receive/accept the love of the truth, meaning they reject the Gospel, meaning they refuse to receive/accept Christ in order that they might be saved.

So you are mistaken.

MannyO
April 13th, 2015, 06:40 PM
"Accept" has essentially the same meaning as "receive," which is abundantly seen as quite biblical here:

http://biblehub.com/greek/edexanto_1209.htm

So...

Those upon whom God will take flaming vengeance refuse to receive/accept the love of the truth, meaning they reject the Gospel, meaning they refuse to receive/accept Christ in order that they might be saved.

So you are mistaken.

The words 'receive' and 'accept' are really quite different, though they seem essentially the same. Let me provide a biblical example of how the two words differ. In John 20:19-22, when Jesus appeared to the disciples and breathed on them saying: 'Receive the Holy Spirit'; do you think He was requiring their consent, or acceptance, to receive it? Did Jesus ask them, 'Who wants to accept the Holy Spirit?'. Similarly at Pentecost what consent or acceptance was required of them before they received the Spirit? Was it their choice to allow the Holy Spirit to fill them and cause them to speak in tongues? (Acts 2:4)

Now let me ask you, Musterion... who or what is God that we can decide to accept or reject Him? Do you know that there are many things in life which you do not, and cannot, choose to reject. Can you choose not to be stricken with an illness? Can you choose not to be affected by gravity? Can you reject death? So if you, sir, cannot even reject and deny these physical things, what makes you think that you can reject the most powerful of all that is spiritual... God Himself?

The doctrine of accepting Christ is not just about the possibility of acceptance but also the possibility of rejection. If you allow for one you must allow for the other. By saying that people can accept Christ, one must also automatically say that they can reject him. And therein lies the lie! But I am here saying to you that it is impossible to reject God, and so it is also impossible to accept Him.

Consider Saul on his way to Damascus, when he was stopped by Christ... what choice did he have as to whether to obey Christ's command: 'Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do' (Acts 9:6)? Doesn't the word 'must' imply that it was a necessity for Saul to do it?

Do you think that Saul, after having had the Lord of lords appear to him, could just have carried onto Damascus as if nothing had happened? But if you believe in the doctrine of accepting Christ, you have to allow for the possibility that Saul could have turned Christ down, and passed Him up on His 'offer'.

This is what is insinuated by the doctrine of accepting Christ: that when it comes to God, we have free choice. I tell you, plain and simply: "No we don't!"

jamie
April 13th, 2015, 07:44 PM
This is what is insinuated by the doctrine of accepting Christ: that when it comes to God, we have free choice. I tell you, plain and simply: "No we don't!"


:thumb: Right, God's call is irresistible. We can do it the easy way or the hard way but we can't beat God.

Timotheos
April 14th, 2015, 04:01 AM
The Bible says clearly that the wages of sin is death, not eternal conscious torment in hell.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Cliff is mistaken if he believes in the infernal doctrine.

jamie
April 14th, 2015, 06:10 AM
The Bible says clearly that the wages of sin is death, not eternal conscious torment in hell.


Cliff is promoting Satan's lie, "Then the serpent said to the woman, 'You will not surely die.'" (Genesis 3:4 NKJV)

chrysostom
April 14th, 2015, 06:18 AM
the answer is as simple as the second death
the questions are also simple
does God want you to suffer eternally?
no
can God do something about it?
yes

Word based mystic
April 14th, 2015, 06:25 AM
Cliff is promoting Satan's lie, "Then the serpent said to the woman, 'You will not surely die.'" (Genesis 3:4 NKJV)

yes. also add that to genesis 3:22 he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever "-- 23therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden

God did not want man to live forever in that state of decay and sin and misery.

It was never the Fathers heart to have never ending torture.

Fathers heart and never ending torture is contradictory to any loving creator.

rather like scripture says and timotheos quotes, the wages of sin is death
and they shall perish
punishment will happen and perish/death is the eternal judgement.
no one or any creature has never ending life unless they are in CHRIST.

only those in Christ are imperishable and indestructible
all the rest are bound for the end of the ages destruction.

chrysostom
April 14th, 2015, 06:30 AM
It was never the Fathers heart to have never ending torture.

Fathers heart and never ending torture is contradictory to any loving creator.
.

amen

Caino
April 14th, 2015, 06:31 AM
There is the choice of life eternal or death, annihilation, cessation of existence. Lakes of fire and eternal torment are fabrications on the part of the priest to keep the flock afraid, for their own good of coarse.

Eternal torment would make God eternally evil.

chrysostom
April 14th, 2015, 06:33 AM
eternal torment is a fabrication on the part of the priest to keep the flock afraid, for their own good of coarse.

.

why did you have to say that?

it detracts from your post

big time

Caino
April 14th, 2015, 06:42 AM
why did you have to say that?

it detracts from you post

big time

Because that's who writes scripture, the literate, elite priest class. Starting with the shamans and medicine man, evolved religion over thousands of years has grown into the professional priest class. Over time they have incorporated true events and the wisdom of the ages into their records and removed other material that did not support beliefs contemporary to their writing, but still, that's who writes and or decides what goes into scripture. Then for control purposes, they tell the flock that God wrote it.

After the Church at Rome made the final list of which books made the cut, they sealed Christianity into a 4th century understanding of God and worldview. It served a purpose for a time in a much different age, but today this stagnant practice of burying the talents under the rock of superstition has turned off thinking man. The Church is shrinking, dying.

chrysostom
April 14th, 2015, 06:52 AM
Because that's who writes scripture, the literate, elite priest class. Starting with the shamans and medicine man, evolved religion over thousands of years has grown into the professional priest class. Over time they have incorporated true events and the wisdom of the ages into their records and removed other material that did not support beliefs contemporary to their writing, but still, that's who writes and or decides what goes into scripture. Then for control purposes, they tell the flock that God wrote it.

After the Church at Rome made the final list of which books made the cut, they sealed Christianity into a 4th century understanding of God and worldview. It served a purpose for a time in a much different age, but today this stagnant practice of burying the talents under the rock of superstition has turned off thinking man. The Church is shrinking, dying.

your bitterness exposes you
and
not the church

Cross Reference
April 14th, 2015, 07:00 AM
your bitterness exposes you
and
not the church

Why are you on this thread? Let the dead bury the dead.

Word based mystic
April 14th, 2015, 07:03 AM
Because that's who writes scripture, the literate, elite priest class. Starting with the shamans and medicine man, evolved religion over thousands of years has grown into the professional priest class. Over time they have incorporated true events and the wisdom of the ages into their records and removed other material that did not support beliefs contemporary to their writing, but still, that's who writes and or decides what goes into scripture. Then for control purposes, they tell the flock that God wrote it.

After the Church at Rome made the final list of which books made the cut, they sealed Christianity into a 4th century understanding of God and worldview. It served a purpose for a time in a much different age, but today this stagnant practice of burying the talents under the rock of superstition has turned off thinking man. The Church is shrinking, dying.

So how do YOU determine what is proper scripture and what is not?

What is the foundation or guideline for your beliefs?

Can Satan deceive you and how do you know if He is?

chrysostom
April 14th, 2015, 07:06 AM
So how do YOU determine what is proper scripture and what is not?

What is the foundation or guideline for your beliefs?

Can Satan deceive you and how do you know if He is?

good questions for everyone

Caino
April 14th, 2015, 07:24 AM
So how do YOU determine what is proper scripture and what is not?

What is the foundation or guideline for your beliefs?

Can Satan deceive you and how do you know if He is?

That's the other thing the shamans do, they set up Satan as "God of this World" so that if you question them they accuse you of being lead by Satan, accuse you of blasphemy, tie you to a stake and set you on fire.....all for the good of the flock of coarse. See Jesus and his experience at the hands of the wonderful religious authority.

* The first lie of the fallen celestial known as Lucifer was that he could ever be a God of this world.

To answer your question, common sense is a huge guide, the indwelling spirit of God, the Spirit of Truth poured out upon all flesh, comparing Jesus' revelation of God to concepts that are inconsistent with his friendly, loving, kind, forgiving, mature, reasonable, natural nature.

In terms of revelations I use the latest to sort out fragments of past transactions that are retained in the Bible. My guide for that is the Urantia Book.

jamie
April 14th, 2015, 08:48 AM
That's the other thing the shamans do, they set up Satan as "God of this World"...



But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4 NKJV)

Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.” (Matthew 4:8-9 NKJV)

Caino
April 14th, 2015, 08:55 AM
But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4 NKJV)

Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.” (Matthew 4:8-9 NKJV)

How is it that the created could take the creator up on a mountain and offer to him what was already his?

jamie
April 14th, 2015, 09:08 AM
How is it that the created could take the creator up on a mountain and offer to him what was already his?



Jesus explained to Pilate, "My kingdom is not of this world, if my kingdom were of this world then would my servants fight that I should not be delivered to the Jews, but now is my kingdom not from hence." (John 18:36 KJV)

For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. (Hebrews 2:5 KJV)

The world to come is our world, not this world.

Caino
April 14th, 2015, 09:39 AM
Jesus explained to Pilate, "My kingdom is not of this world, if my kingdom were of this world then would my servants fight that I should not be delivered to the Jews, but now is my kingdom not from hence." (John 18:36 KJV)

For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. (Hebrews 2:5 KJV)

The world to come is our world, not this world.

"The Kingdom of Heaven is within you"

The kingdom of Jesus is spiritual and on this world, not OF this world. When the true gospel eventually subdues ALL the world and God is king in the hearts of the believer then we could say the kingdom has come to full fruition.....but it will be on this world.

All power and authority in heaven and on earth is now the Sons. He is unquestioned sovereign Lord over his own creation. Jesus does not share power with a Satan God. To teach that there is the Father, his Son, the spirit.... plus a Satan God is simply untrue. While it is accurate to say that as a high celestial administrator, Satan & company were able to cause a lot of confusion and spread the Atheist meme, he was self deluded to think that he could ever be a God.

jamie
April 14th, 2015, 11:55 AM
All power and authority in heaven and on earth is now the Sons. He is unquestioned sovereign Lord over his own creation.


That has always been true, but Satan serves at the pleasure of Jesus Christ. Satan only has the power that we and Jesus give to him.

everready
April 14th, 2015, 12:40 PM
Have any of you heard of Cliff Knechtle? He's an apologetic pastor who visits college campuses, discussing theological issues with students. I agree with much of what he says - such as his arguments for the existence of God, and his arguments against moral relativism. Though much of what he teaches is intellectually sound, there's also much falseness that he espouses, such as the 'acceptance' of Jesus Christ, and everlasting Hell.

I was watching one of his videos the other day. In the video a person asks him about Hell and he responds with an analogy. Through the analogy Cliffe attempts to explain why unending Hell, is a just, valid and deserving punishment. His reasoning is that offences committed against higher authority figures deserve more severe punishments. Thus an offence committed against God - the highest authority - demands the most severe punishment.

Here is the video that contains Cliffe's analogy. It starts from 16.05, ending at 19:13:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdlgI6oh7oM

Let me ask the following question, in response to Cliffe's analogy:

Why is that crimes comitted against higher authorities (e.g. police officer, president) should be deserving of harsher penalties or punishments?

Is it because society says so? If so, what makes society right?

I believe that Cliffe's analogy is faulty and incorrect. He seems to imply that the more authority a person has, the more valuable or worthy he or she is. But don't we, as humans, all have the same level of value? What is it about authority that gives a person more (perceived) value?

Isn't it unfair to say that the penalty for hitting the president should be greater than hitting a teacher? If I hit the president, why should the value of my penalty go up dramatically just because he has more authority? I believe that the penalty for hitting the president or hitting the chief of police or hitting a teacher, should be the same. All are humans and therefore have the same value. So the value of the punishment should be the same. It should unaffected by status, titles, authority, age, race, or any other such external factor. Our legal system(s) should be objective.

If a civilian who abuses an authority figure should receive a more severe punishment; should those in authority who commit an abusive crime also receive a more severe punishment? If the president hits a common civilian, should he be dealt with more severely, because of the authority he possesses?

Now, we know that the highest authority is God. When we 'slap God in the face' (as Cliffe puts it), offending Him, by breaking His Law, His solution is of course to punish us. This is so that we might learn from punishment. But if a person is forever being punished - via eternal hell - how will they ever reach the end goal, for which that punishment was intended? Even human authority figures grasp the concept of remedial punishment. How much more does God? In dealing with a rebellious child a parent might turn the child over, give a few slaps, and that's it. They don't perpetually slap their child. If wicked human beings (Matthew 7:11) don't even go to such torturous lengths, what makes Cliffe think that the good God (Luke 18:19) would perpetually punish His own creations? And not even just continuously punish them, but punish them in the most wicked of ways - roasting and burning in inextinguishable fire! The doctrine of Hell is not even punishment, it's abuse. Far be it for the loving God, who is Love, to abuse anyone. And to do so would essentially mean He'd be abusing Himself, because we are all, to some extent, extensions of Him.

You might like this Manny one of the greatest sermons ever preached.

Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God

Jonathan Edwards (1703-1758)
Enfield, Connecticut

July 8, 1741

Their foot shall slide in due time. Deuteronomy 32:35

In this verse is threatened the vengeance of God on the wicked unbelieving Israelites, who were God's visible people, and who lived under the means of grace; but who, notwithstanding all God's wonderful works towards them, remained (as vers 28.) void of counsel, having no understanding in them.

Under all the cultivations of heaven, they brought forth bitter and poisonous fruit; as in the two verses next preceding the text. -- The expression I have chosen for my text, their foot shall slide in due time, seems to imply the following things, relating to the punishment and destruction to which these wicked Israelites were exposed.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/edwards/sermons.sinners.html


everready

Caino
April 14th, 2015, 01:04 PM
That has always been true, but Satan serves at the pleasure of Jesus Christ. Satan only has the power that we and Jesus give to him.

The idea that the Father or the Son, or both, keep a Satan God on a short leash to do evil is pretty sick!

chrysostom
April 14th, 2015, 01:07 PM
keep a Satan God on a short leash to do evil

who said that?

Timotheos
April 14th, 2015, 02:24 PM
Cliff is promoting Satan's lie, "Then the serpent said to the woman, 'You will not surely die.'" (Genesis 3:4 NKJV)

Yes, it is a little sad that some Christians abandon the Bible when it contradicts their tradition.

jamie
April 14th, 2015, 02:44 PM
The idea that the Father or the Son, or both, keep a Satan God on a short leash to do evil is pretty sick!


It was Adam's choice not God's, but God will replace this age with the one to come. God respected Adam's decision.

OCTOBER23
April 14th, 2015, 02:46 PM
chrysostom,

I watched a few Catholic masses on Sunday TV

and I only saw about 8 people in the pews.

Where the heck are the rest of them.

We have had as much as a 1000 people attending every Saturday Sabbath.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As far as higher Authorities goes -

GOD IS NO RESPECTER OF PERSONS

AND SIN IS SIN NO MATTER WHAT OR WHO IT IS AGAINST.

Ben Masada
April 14th, 2015, 02:52 PM
There is nothing eternal about man but death itself. So, let's live our lives the best we can because we will never have another chance.

Lon
April 14th, 2015, 03:04 PM
And not even just continuously punish them, but punish them in the most wicked of ways - roasting and burning in inextinguishable fire! The doctrine of Hell is not even punishment, it's abuse. Far be it for the loving God, who is Love, to abuse anyone. And to do so would essentially mean He'd be abusing Himself, because we are all, to some extent, extensions of Him.
Grace holds back the effects of sin, else we'd all be experiencing the detriment 100+ fold. I see 'hell' as a removal of that, that we get everything we've sown. I don't know what torments are in hell, but I do believe they are likely self-inflicted. God created the place, but I'm not sure if He constructed the flames. Sin isn't just 'not good.' Sin is torment and wicked. Stealing a piece of candy harms another. "It is just a piece of candy" is a lie. The shop owner may certainly forgive and forbear, but it was a wicked injury to gratify self at the cost to another without regard to his hurt or pain, no matter how small. That is why it is wicked. Hell, without the grace of God, is going to be horrible. It is us, left to ourselves, without God, and without reigns on our own sin condition. That, imho, will be hell: Just me, left alone so I don't harm others, by myself, no sleep, with just myself, stuck in my chosen condition, forever.

everready
April 14th, 2015, 03:12 PM
There is nothing eternal about man but death itself. So, let's live our lives the best we can because we will never have another chance.

You can have eternal life in Christ.

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

That way when judgment comes you'll be in good hands.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:


everready

chrysostom
April 14th, 2015, 03:17 PM
Grace holds back the effects of sin,

no it doesn't

grace helps us avoid sin

musterion
April 14th, 2015, 03:25 PM
The words 'receive' and 'accept' are really quite different

They are the same Greek word. Clicking the link I provided shows that and would have saved you this embarrassment.


This is what is insinuated by the doctrine of accepting Christ: that when it comes to God, we have free choice. I tell you, plain and simply: "No we don't!"Then your god is a liar for condemning people expressly for choosing to reject Christ when he never really gave them that choice. Luckily, though, that's not the God of the Bible. It's an idol.

Ben Masada
April 14th, 2015, 03:27 PM
1 - You can have eternal life in Christ.
2 - John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
3 - That way when judgment comes you'll be in good hands.
4 - Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

everready

1 - Jesus died, for heaven's sake! How can the dead guarantee life to the living when they themselves don't have it?
2 - This is akin to séance, aka the belief that the dead are conscious.
3 - Do you know what is the meaning of delusion? That's it.
4 - That's according to the gospel of Paul and not Judaism which was the Faith of Jesus.

Caino
April 14th, 2015, 03:52 PM
It was Adam's choice not God's, but God will replace this age with the one to come. God respected Adam's decision.

I don't know what that has to do with the claim that Jesus works with a Satan God.

Caino
April 14th, 2015, 03:55 PM
who said that?

In Jamie's post, he claimed that Satan serves at Jesus' pleasure, that man and Christ give Satan powers of some sort.

Caino
April 14th, 2015, 03:57 PM
1 - Jesus died, for heaven's sake! How can the dead guarantee life to the living when they themselves don't have it?
2 - This is akin to séance, aka the belief that the dead are conscious.
3 - Do you know what is the meaning of delusion? That's it.
4 - That's according to the gospel of Paul and not Judaism which was the Faith of Jesus.


Do you get the newspaper? Jesus resurrected a likeness of himself from the dead, the Jewish Messiah is still MIA and there is a Mosque built in top the Temple Mount.

chrysostom
April 14th, 2015, 04:11 PM
a Mosque built in top the Temple Mount.

what does that mean to you?

jamie
April 14th, 2015, 05:24 PM
In Jamie's post, he claimed that Satan serves at Jesus' pleasure, that man and Christ give Satan powers of some sort.



Resist the devil and he will flee from you. (James 4:7 KJV)


We have power over Satan.

jamie
April 14th, 2015, 05:28 PM
I don't know what that has to do with the claim that Jesus works with a Satan God.


Satan is not God, he is an angel. Angels live at Jesus' discretion, they are not immortal.

Lon
April 14th, 2015, 05:32 PM
no it doesn't
Incorrect, especially for the believer. Forgiveness often eliminates consequences of sin. God is in this business. Because He changed me, there are consequences against those who have wronged me that have not suffered. And that is only one example. This is true regardless of your disagreement.


grace helps us avoid sin
That too.

Caino
April 14th, 2015, 05:57 PM
what does that mean to you?

It means that Israel is a county like any other, old ruins from the past. Whatever they had hoped to be was lost when they rejected the original gospel and their calling as tourch bearers of the kingdom.

Caino
April 14th, 2015, 06:00 PM
Satan is not God, he is an angel. Angels live at Jesus' discretion, they are not immortal.

Oh, it's confusing because earlier you were saying that Satan lead Jesus around and offered him powers that he already had. Angels don't lead creators around, besides Satan was much more than an angel but he was defeated and is gone.

jamie
April 14th, 2015, 06:46 PM
Oh, it's confusing because earlier you were saying that Satan lead Jesus around and offered him powers that he already had. Angels don't lead creators around, besides Satan was much more than an angel but he was defeated and is gone.


Adam chose to follow Satan instead of God. God gave Satan authority over humans and he has given us the power to resist him, but look at the world today.

Caino
April 14th, 2015, 07:01 PM
Adam chose to follow Satan instead of God. God gave Satan authority over humans and he has given us the power to resist him, but look at the world today.

We have a different theologies.

Word based mystic
April 14th, 2015, 08:12 PM
You can have eternal life in Christ.

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

That way when judgment comes you'll be in good hands.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:


everready

dont forget the 2nd death
first is physical
2nd is to perish

everready
April 14th, 2015, 09:24 PM
dont forget the 2nd death
first is physical
2nd is to perish

i didn't forget, the second death is eternal punishment.


everready

Word based mystic
April 14th, 2015, 10:05 PM
i didn't forget, the second death is eternal punishment.


everready

exactly and??

what is the permanent/eternal irreversible punishment???

matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell

2 peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to ((perish)) but for all to come to repentance.

perish (appolummi) to utterly destroy.
not to inherit eternal life just in a different setting.

death hell and the grave gets tossed in the fire
and voila chapter 21 in progressive context. what comes after the destruction of things that perish. even the old heaven and earth.
and voila there is a new heaven and earth those (old things passed away)

everready
April 14th, 2015, 10:26 PM
exactly and??

what is the permanent/eternal irreversible punishment???

matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell

2 peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to ((perish)) but for all to come to repentance.

perish (appolummi) to utterly destroy.
not to inherit eternal life just in a different setting.

death hell and the grave gets tossed in the fire
and voila chapter 21 in progressive context. what comes after the destruction of things that perish. even the old heaven and earth.
and voila there is a new heaven and earth those (old things passed away)

Exactly, utterly destroy with everlasting destruction.

I Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


everready

everready
April 14th, 2015, 10:53 PM
1 - Jesus died, for heaven's sake! How can the dead guarantee life to the living when they themselves don't have it?
2 - This is akin to séance, aka the belief that the dead are conscious.
3 - Do you know what is the meaning of delusion? That's it.
4 - That's according to the gospel of Paul and not Judaism which was the Faith of Jesus.

It appears you don't know who Jesus is Ben.

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

He's alive forevermore.

Praise God!


everready

freelight
April 15th, 2015, 12:52 AM
Now, we know that the highest authority is God. When we 'slap God in the face' (as Cliffe puts it), offending Him, by breaking His Law, His solution is of course to punish us.

This is only assuming 'God' is some big superman in the sky, holding a big whipping stick, or some other anthropomorphic image, a 'person' doing the punishing, when it is essentially a consequence of transgressing a natural or spiritual law. Since the law of 'karma' (action) acts upon its own dynamic of cause/effect correlations,...what is sown, is what is reaped, measure for measure. The law is not 'offended' if viewing the law as an impersonal principle. A transgression against any law imposes its own penalties, with or without a belief in 'God'. To assume a capricious 'God' is offended by our 'sins', well....perhaps we have made a 'God' in our own image, 'suiting' him as we please.


This is so that we might learn from punishment. But if a person is forever being punished - via eternal hell - how will they ever reach the end goal, for which that punishment was intended? Even human authority figures grasp the concept of remedial punishment. How much more does God?

The concept of 'eternal conscious torment' in hell is problematic on a variety of levels, since detaining a soul in such a state forever defeats the purpose of life itself, which is 'learning', 'evolution', 'progression' 'creative expression', 'unfolding one's innate potential', etc. Love by its own nature will allow 'correction', and any so called 'punishment' or penalties of breaking a law, would be 'remedial' or 'corrective' in nature. We learn by the things we suffer, and thru the law of sowing/reaping, receive our due, and learn thereby. Eternal torture is wholly antithetical to love, logic and sanity.

For more of my own commentary questioning ECT (eternal conscious torment) go here (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/blog.php?b=1581) (blog-portal with post-links).


In dealing with a rebellious child a parent might turn the child over, give a few slaps, and that's it. They don't perpetually slap their child. If wicked human beings (Matthew 7:11) don't even go to such torturous lengths, what makes Cliffe think that the good God (Luke 18:19) would perpetually punish His own creations? And not even just continuously punish them, but punish them in the most wicked of ways - roasting and burning in inextinguishable fire! The doctrine of Hell is not even punishment, it's abuse.

To the bold above, indeed,...its worse than 'abuse', it is premeditated and imposed TORTURE, since the concept of ECT offers no solution, resolve or remedy to the suffering, but only its perpetual infliction TO NO END, which again, is against love, logic and sanity, - it defeats the will of God, the purpose of life/creation, so those assuming such a caricature of 'God' support an action that opposes all 'Real God' stands for.


Far be it for the loving God, who is Love, to abuse anyone. And to do so would essentially mean He'd be abusing Himself, because we are all, to some extent, extensions of Him.

Indeed,...for the law of love holds all within its universal embrace and application....since Love cannot do what is against its will or nature, and anything of 'God' in us is part of that eternal and divine nature, with all its potential.



pj

Word based mystic
April 15th, 2015, 05:13 AM
Exactly, utterly destroy with everlasting destruction.

I Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


everready

yup good quote.

everlasting
forever
both words rooted in
till the end of the age, period of time, relating to this present earth age.

the wages of sin is death not life never ending

2nd death = ummm ((death)) period

at the end of the age ummm simple

Caino
April 15th, 2015, 05:32 AM
"Man might fear a great God, but he trusts and loves only a good God."

This leads man to tacitly imply that he believes things, not because he thinks that they are true, but because he is afraid not to believe them. This control mechanism is a creation of the priest class, shamans or medicine men.

Word based mystic
April 15th, 2015, 08:13 AM
"Man might fear a great God, but he trusts and loves only a good God."

This leads man to tacitly imply that he believes things, not because he thinks that they are true, but because he is afraid not to believe them. This control mechanism is a creation of the priest class, shamans or medicine men.

any scriptures that you would consider corrective or judgemental
so as to discourage the sin or abuse to others, YOU would consider controlling.

does not a good parent control the parameters of a childs freedom for their own safety.
a poor father that would be that would not warn of destruction harmful consequences of poor choices.

Caino
April 15th, 2015, 08:42 AM
any scriptures that you would consider corrective or judgemental
so as to discourage the sin or abuse to others, YOU would consider controlling.

does not a good parent control the parameters of a childs freedom for their own safety.
a poor father that would be that would not warn of destruction harmful consequences of poor choices.

That's not true, there is plenty of great wisdom in the collection of writings used to make the Bible that I am subservient to, just not the untruthful things that outrage a persons sense of justice and mercy.

But you are correct when you say that a good parent controls the parameters of a child's freedom. In some ways superstition has served to guard mankind from wondering off to far and for their own good. But now that the age of enlightenment and science has liberated man from much of his superstition, we face new challenges that need new perimeters.

CherubRam
April 15th, 2015, 09:32 AM
1 - Jesus died, for heaven's sake! How can the dead guarantee life to the living when they themselves don't have it?
2 - This is akin to séance, aka the belief that the dead are conscious.
3 - Do you know what is the meaning of delusion? That's it.
4 - That's according to the gospel of Paul and not Judaism which was the Faith of Jesus.

Your list of arguments is out of wack. Take some time and read the New Testament. And just because you can find some Pagan Catholic corruptions, it does not mean you should toss the whole thing out.

Word based mystic
April 15th, 2015, 09:53 AM
That's not true, there is plenty of great wisdom in the collection of writings used to make the Bible that I am subservient to, just not the untruthful things that outrage a persons sense of justice and mercy.

But you are correct when you say that a good parent controls the parameters of a child's freedom. In some ways superstition has served to guard mankind from wondering off to far and for their own good. But now that the age of enlightenment and science has liberated man from much of his superstition, we face new challenges that need new perimeters.

and of course these perimeters come from your sensibilities.
from your speculations.
from your perceived moral judgement
from your concept of enlightenment.
from your knowledge of good and evil.
your
your
you
you
self
self
judge
situational ethics
pride that your
judgement determines what is of God and what is not.
pride
self righteousness
the lies in the garden
flow out of your mouth
for surely if you eat of this tree you shall not die

Jesus said "It is written, 'MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD." Matthew 4:4

you now in your own righteousness become the judge of what is correct scripture and not. dispensing of some and keeping others.

self
righteousness
death.

Caino
April 15th, 2015, 10:16 AM
and of course these perimeters come from your sensibilities.
from your speculations.
from your perceived moral judgement
from your concept of enlightenment.
from your knowledge of good and evil.
your
your
you
you
self
self
judge
situational ethics
pride that your
judgement determines what is of God and what is not.
pride
self righteousness
the lies in the garden
flow out of your mouth
for surely if you eat of this tree you shall not die

Jesus said "It is written, 'MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD." Matthew 4:4

you now in your own righteousness become the judge of what is correct scripture and not. dispensing of some and keeping others.

self
righteousness
death.

Well, that's what they have convinced you of, doubt yourself, if you have a sense of right and wrong it comes from pride, if you question them it's the crafty beast.

In one age an author of scripture claimed God moved David to number Israel, 200 years later another author retelling the same story changed it to Satan moving David to number Israel. But the powers that be would accuse you of some bogus form of heresy for pointing out this simple fact. Another class of biblical apologist would debase their own self respect by making up some contorted excuses for the same.

Even though the Hebrew language evolved 500 years after Moses and the OT books were written in Babylon nearly 1,000 years after the sage lived, if Moses wrote Genesis there were NO scriptures before the reformer began his writings. NO so called "mouth of God" for anyone to live by for thousands of years.

OCTOBER23
April 19th, 2015, 07:15 AM
BEN MASADA

Do You have anything Better to Offer Us instead of JESUS ??????

Answer = NO

freelight
April 19th, 2015, 01:31 PM
BEN MASADA

Do You have anything Better to Offer Us instead of JESUS ??????

Answer = NO

His presentation of Jesus is more of the 'offering' of Jesus own religious path which he interprets more in a purely Jewish traditional format with loyalty to the law and the prophets. If you are given the way and the laws of God,...you do not necessarily exalt a 'person' as the way, but respect the way of life that that prophet lived out before you, as an example. Otherwise, 'Jesus' could be made out to be as an 'idol' or 'god' of some sort (wont get into any con-fusing Christological issues here). Remember Jesus always pointed to the one True God as his Father, and our Father.

See the Gospel of Matthew,...it presents a pretty Jewish Jesus.



pj

way 2 go
April 19th, 2015, 03:29 PM
everlasting
forever
both words rooted in
till the end of the age, period of time, relating to this present earth age.
:nono:

Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

it is eternal life for Christians
it is eternal punishment for the unrighteous

the wages of sin is death not life never ending

2nd death = ummm ((death)) period

at the end of the age ummm simple

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins

the unrighteous will continue spiritually dead in eternal punishment

Word based mystic
April 19th, 2015, 05:56 PM
:nono:

Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

it is eternal life for Christians
it is eternal punishment for the unrighteous


Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins

the unrighteous will continue spiritually dead in eternal punishment

yup correct and affirmed

what is eternal punishment???

the judgement is punishment. the punishment is permanent

What is the punishment??

death not life.
perish not imperishable
mortal not immortality
destruction not indestructible

forever or everlasting is defined within the age of
period of time.
messianic period
till the end of the age

NOT NEVER ENDING.
you change the word forever to never ending. INCORRECT.

You state the wicked shall live never ending INCORRECT

You claim the 2nd death is actually (life) just in a different fashion
INCORRECT

you claim the wages of sin is (life) just in a different fashion. INCORRECT

many change word meanings to accommodate the teaching of your fear based preachers.

forever/eternal = of the age, within the age of, period of time relating to the earth and its ending.



you redefine words to accommodate a doctrine

making hell death and the grave indestructible. making the soul of the wicked indestructible and imperishable.

exactly the opposite of eternal/permanent destruction.

((The eternal fire which is designed to destroy according to you is incapable of accomplishing it's purpose.))

yet here is an example of that fire
ezekiel 28:18 Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you; It has consumed you, And I have turned you to ashes on the earth In the eyes of all who see you. 19"All who know you among the peoples Are appalled at you; You have become terrified And you will cease to be forever."'"
((cease to be forever))

here is another example of what you ignore the fire will do

matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who ((kill)) the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to ((destroy)) both (soul and body) in hell

Ktoyou
April 19th, 2015, 06:44 PM
This seems very simple to debate over. Get saved, or you go to hell. There is no other provision.

jamie
April 19th, 2015, 06:46 PM
the unrighteous will continue spiritually dead in eternal punishment


Well, I guess that will really show them.

way 2 go
April 19th, 2015, 08:57 PM
what is eternal punishment???
Rev_20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

the judgement is punishment. the punishment is permanent
judgement is judgement
punishment is eternal

What is the punishment??

Rev_20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.


forever or everlasting is defined within the age of
period of time.
messianic period
till the end of the age
so you "redefine words to accommodate a doctrine"
the words forever or everlasting get redefined by you

NOT NEVER ENDING.
you change the word forever to never ending. INCORRECT.
correct I will be in heaven forever ,never ending.

You state the wicked shall live never ending INCORRECT
correct Mat_25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment


You claim the 2nd death is actually (life) just in a different fashion
INCORRECT

alive but dead
Eph_2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins

many change word meanings to accommodate the teaching of your fear based preachers.
someone should have told Jesus to tone it down
Mat_25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

forever/eternal = of the age, within the age of, period of time relating to the earth and its ending.
so no eternal life for you.:(

you redefine words to accommodate a doctrine
that is you

making hell death and the grave indestructible. making the soul of the wicked indestructible and imperishable.
Jesus did it not me


yet here is an example of that fire
ezekiel 28:18 Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you; It has consumed you, And I have turned you to ashes on the earth In the eyes of all who see you. 19"All who know you among the peoples Are appalled at you; You have become terrified And you will cease to be forever."'"
((cease to be forever))
on this earth


here is another example of what you ignore the fire will do

matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who ((kill)) the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to ((destroy)) both (soul and body) in hell
Fear God, absolutely

Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Ben Masada
April 20th, 2015, 12:02 PM
This seems very simple to debate over. Get saved, or you go to hell. There is no other provision.

Actually there is another provision: To listen to "Moses" aka the Law. That's the provision of Jesus himself in Luke 16:29-31. It is about the parable of the Richman and Lazarus. The Richman was in hell-fire asking that someone be sent to his family to warn them not to come to the same place. Jesus said that they had "Moses" and that they should listen to him. He meant the Law. Hence, "Moses" between quotation marks. That's the provision I adopt. By the way, there is one more provision but presented by the Catholic Church only; that there is salvation only in the Catholic church. That's from the "Summa Theologica" by Thomas Aquinas, a famous Catholic Theologian scholar.

Ben Masada
April 20th, 2015, 12:06 PM
BEN MASADA

Do You have anything Better to Offer Us instead of JESUS ??????

Answer = NO

Yes but, to reach Christians, the only way is through Jesus; although
they don't follow the true Jesus but the "Christ" of Paul which had nothing to do with Jesus.

Jordan Fontenot
April 20th, 2015, 02:53 PM
dont forget the 2nd death
first is physical
2nd is to perish

Where do you get this from?

Timotheos
April 20th, 2015, 05:30 PM
This seems very simple to debate over. Get saved, or you go to hell. There is no other provision.

Jesus said that they will be destroyed in hell (Gehenna). There is no provision made for eternal life in hell being tortured alive. That is a very human (and sadistic) idea.

Word based mystic
April 20th, 2015, 06:52 PM
Where do you get this from?

matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

perish in greek is appollumi = to utterly destroy

as far as the definition of forever. it does not mean never ending

it is aion. period of time, till the end of the age.

please do your word studies in order to keep your doctrine correct

Jordan Fontenot
April 20th, 2015, 09:59 PM
matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

perish in greek is appollumi = to utterly destroy

as far as the definition of forever. it does not mean never ending

it is aion. period of time, till the end of the age.

please do your word studies in order to keep your doctrine correct

I took a straight year of Greek on an academic level from a guy who got his Ph.D from Oxford, so please don't complain to me about not doing word studies. Very familiar with apollumi and aion. My problem with trying to fit aion into a context that is temporal is that it is used literally in the same context of the same verse to describe both eternal life and eternal punishment. So either they are both eternal or both temporal.

Interesting note, Apollumi is also used for the word "mar" as in to damage something severely. If you want to have arguments based on what words "could" mean in Greek then you will run into a lot of logistical issues.

freelight
April 20th, 2015, 10:36 PM
I took a straight year of Greek on an academic level from a guy who got his Ph.D from Oxford, so please don't complain to me about not doing word studies. Very familiar with apollumi and aion. My problem with trying to fit aion into a context that is temporal is that it is used literally in the same context of the same verse to describe both eternal life and eternal punishment. So either they are both eternal or both temporal.

Interesting note, Apollumi is also used for the word "mar" as in to damage something severely. If you want to have arguments based on what words "could" mean in Greek then you will run into a lot of logistical issues.

Continuing from my rejection of ECT here (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4290455&postcount=53), no matter what spin you put on the words, you still have to deal with the implications of a God who imposes 'eternal conscious torment', perpetual punishment, unending PAIN, endless SUFFERING upon his own offspring, for all eternity, to no END. This is vile, sadistic and unbecoming of any 'God', let alone a God of Love. Its more akin to what personalities such as satan, the devil or one of his cohorts would do, some personification of pure evil.

One could split hairs over terms/meanings, but the implications/conclusions within the proper context of the passages may vary depending on interpretation, but the ideals, morals, principles and ethic of what is true justice and mercy, mediated by divine love and wisdom MUST be integrated and involved in our consideration of how we understand and define any 'justification of eternal punishment',...since 'God' and his universal laws would be wholly fair, consistent, truly equitable.

Love would always uphold all avenues/opportunities for soul-salvation/deliverance, restoration/recovery, affording all means possible for such, as long as a soul has the 'ability' to repentance. God's will can never be for the 'eternal unending suffering, torment, pain' of any of his offspring, ever. That's insanity.

patrick jane
April 20th, 2015, 10:52 PM
Rev_20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

judgement is judgement
punishment is eternal

Rev_20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

so you "redefine words to accommodate a doctrine"
the words forever or everlasting get redefined by you

correct I will be in heaven forever ,never ending.

correct Mat_25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment

alive but dead
Eph_2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins

someone should have told Jesus to tone it down
Mat_25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

so no eternal life for you.:(

that is you

Jesus did it not me

on this earth


Fear God, absolutely

Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

especially folks under the Law - :Patrol:

Jordan Fontenot
April 21st, 2015, 02:08 AM
Continuing from my rejection of ECT here (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4290455&postcount=53), no matter what spin you put on the words, you still have to deal with the implications of a God who imposes 'eternal conscious torment', perpetual punishment, unending PAIN, endless SUFFERING upon his own offspring, for all eternity, to no END. This is vile, sadistic and unbecoming of any 'God', let alone a God of Love. Its more akin to what personalities such as satan, the devil or one of his cohorts would do, some personification of pure evil.

One could split hairs over terms/meanings, but the implications/conclusions within the proper context of the passages may vary depending on interpretation, but the ideals, morals, principles and ethic of what is true justice and mercy, mediated by divine love and wisdom MUST be integrated and involved in our consideration of how we understand and define any 'justification of eternal punishment',...since 'God' and his universal laws would be wholly fair, consistent, truly equitable.

Love would always uphold all avenues/opportunities for soul-salvation/deliverance, restoration/recovery, affording all means possible for such, as long as a soul is able/capable of repentance. God's will can never be for the 'eternal unending suffering, torment, pain' of any of his offspring, ever. That's insanity.



pj

First of all, you seem to be indicating that God must fit your ideal characteristics of morality in order to retain deity. In essence this argument can come down to (although I understand this is not what you are indenting to imply) God can't be god if he isn't the god you would be. Why do we as feeble-minded mortals think that we can understand and dictate the will of God as though we could fully understand it. He states clearly that His ways are not our ways. He is not a man. So just because someone's idea of love is rainbow's and butterflies everyday does not mean God must fulfill that quota. God is not only loving but holy, and when we do not respond appropriately to His holiness, He is not responsible for what happens to us; we are.

Which brings me to my second point. God does not sit on His throne and cast mounds of people into eternal punishment. As a matter of fact, one would argue that He is both responsible and not responsible for our fate. He is responsible in that He has given us the option between punishment or reward, however we are the one who chooses where we will go, not God. God showed us love by giving us a choice. And if you don't believe me then just look at Adam and Eve. What evil and vile God would "force" His creation to fall into a life of sin, eternally separating them from Him by creating a tree they were not to eat of? He didn't force them though. He told them the consequences and they chose for themselves. The consequences were enforced. God gives grace to those who chose it. The same goes for damnation.

Word based mystic
April 21st, 2015, 03:47 AM
I took a straight year of Greek on an academic level from a guy who got his Ph.D from Oxford, so please don't complain to me about not doing word studies. Very familiar with apollumi and aion. My problem with trying to fit aion into a context that is temporal is that it is used literally in the same context of the same verse to describe both eternal life and eternal punishment. So either they are both eternal or both temporal.

Interesting note, Apollumi is also used for the word "mar" as in to damage something severely. If you want to have arguments based on what words "could" mean in Greek then you will run into a lot of logistical issues.

wasn't talking to you but rather (way to go)
and on the word perish It's first and primary definition is to destroy utterly. Especially in affirmation to other scriptures that relate to destructible, perishable vs imperishable, life vs death,
wages of sin is death, etc.

Timotheos
April 21st, 2015, 05:14 AM
I took a straight year of Greek on an academic level from a guy who got his Ph.D from Oxford, so please don't complain to me about not doing word studies. Very familiar with apollumi and aion. My problem with trying to fit aion into a context that is temporal is that it is used literally in the same context of the same verse to describe both eternal life and eternal punishment. So either they are both eternal or both temporal.

Interesting note, Apollumi is also used for the word "mar" as in to damage something severely. If you want to have arguments based on what words "could" mean in Greek then you will run into a lot of logistical issues.

Your side doesn't need to prove that Apollumi might not mean destruction. Your side needs to prove that Apollumi DOESN'T mean destruction, and you haven't done that.

The definition of aion doesn't help your case, since someone who has been destroyed, and remains destroyed forever has also been eternally punished. They are not part of the group that goes to eternal life, so they cannot spend their eternal life being tortured. They would need to be part of the group that has eternal life, and they aren't. Since they do not have eternal life, they will perish just as the Bible says.

Aimiel
April 21st, 2015, 05:17 AM
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

chrysostom
April 21st, 2015, 05:18 AM
Since they do not have eternal life, they will perish just as the Bible says.

exactly

jamie
April 21st, 2015, 07:56 AM
God does not sit on His throne and cast mounds of people into eternal punishment.


God judges no man but has deferred judgment to the Son.

Jordan Fontenot
April 21st, 2015, 06:39 PM
Your side doesn't need to prove that Apollumi might not mean destruction. Your side needs to prove that Apollumi DOESN'T mean destruction, and you haven't done that.

Under that logic you have to prove that it DOESN'T mean "To Mar" Which you have not done...


The definition of aion doesn't help your case, since someone who has been destroyed, and remains destroyed forever has also been eternally punished. They are not part of the group that goes to eternal life, so they cannot spend their eternal life being tortured. They would need to be part of the group that has eternal life, and they aren't. Since they do not have eternal life, they will perish just as the Bible says.

Assuming that you decide to ignore those contextual issues which I have mentioned and decide to look for whatever alternative definitions or interpretations you can find to make your argument. Let's even assume you're right. Would God be just?

way 2 go
April 21st, 2015, 09:36 PM
wasn't talking to you but rather (way to go)
and on the word perish It's first and primary definition is to destroy utterly. Especially in affirmation to other scriptures that relate to destructible, perishable vs imperishable, life vs death,
wages of sin is death, etc.

Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

I like what Jordan said:

the same verse to describe both eternal life and eternal punishment. So either they are both eternal or both temporal.

are they both eternal or both temporal ?

freelight
April 21st, 2015, 10:14 PM
Assuming that you decide to ignore those contextual issues which I have mentioned and decide to look for whatever alternative definitions or interpretations you can find to make your argument. Let's even assume you're right. Would God be just?

I don't see it a matter of justice for God to detain souls in an endless state of eternal suffering or torment....to no end. - to no effect but endless agony. That's not just. Its insane.

A soul however that has embraced iniquity totally, and has made a final CHOICE to reject God (life/love), will suffer the consequence of such a deliberate choice, and the result is 'death'....in the total/final sense,....a disintegration of being. That 'being' has forfeited its life-potential and undergoes the disintegration of the second death, from which there is no return. This death nullifies/expunges that soul's conscious existence. It becomes no more, it is no longer a living entity or enlivened personality, it is re-absorbed back into God, the primal elements, the universal Spirit.


pj

Word based mystic
April 22nd, 2015, 06:15 AM
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

I like what Jordan said:

are they both eternal or both temporal ?

ying yang balance. once again. goobley gock not scriptural
Speculation only.

if you want true contrast then look truly at scripture
for instance the righteous go into eternal life
the wicked are judged/damned eternally and the eternal punishment is (death).

so eternal life for the righteous vs
eternal destruction. permanent state not able to have life again no more resurrection possibility. no life.

you describe the wicked of having life eternally.

yet romans says romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

got that. death/destruction/perish

matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who (((kill))) the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to (destroy) both (soul) and body {in hell}.

you change the meaning of punishment to (torture)

a little adding to scripture for your ect doctrine.

once again what is the punishment?????
It is obviously the below scriptures.

revelation 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second (((death)))
matthew 10:28 kill, destroy.
romans 6:23 death.
ezekiel 28:18 cease to be forever.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you; It has consumed you, And I have turned you to ashes on the earth In the eyes of all who see you. 19"All who know you among the peoples Are appalled at you; You have become terrified And you ((((will cease to be forever))))."'"

Word based mystic
April 22nd, 2015, 06:22 AM
first off you will find the words eternal and forever as quite different than what most try to mold them into

(eternal) is related to an age or period of time relating to this earth and the age in which the earth exists
{aionios}
(perpetual) is also specifically pointing to the beginning of time/this earth till the end of the earth/time.

there will come a new heaven and earth which (righteousness) exists
all the old things have passed away. And death within the context of revelation 20 and 21 will be (no more)

never ending is a different concept. which relates to the Kingdom of God (NOT) the kingdom of darkness or any of it's minions or followers
(the kingdom of darkness does not out live the Kingdom of God).

That is why the new heaven and earth is described as having (righteousness) existing.

The first death is of the flesh. the 2nd death is of the things that are corruptible and things that shall pass away. The (wicked are corruptible and shall perish). appolumi to be utterly destroyed.

the torment shall exist until the very end of the age till all things pass away. Forever = aion ((till the end of the age or period of time)). NOT NEVER ENDING

Ezekiel 28:18-19 Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you; It has consumed you, And I have turned you to ashes on the earth In the eyes of all who see you. 19"All who know you among the peoples Are appalled at you; You have become terrified And you will >>>>cease to be forever.<<<<"

All of the above is consistent with Gods justice/wrath and his mercy which endures forever.
even in his judgement there is mercy (an end to torture)
which has no purpose (that is never ending torment)

and is not worthy of a father
nor is it his original intent or desire for man.
see genesis 3:22
Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, >>>>and eat, and live forever<<<< "-- 23therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden,

eternal torment doctrine falls apart in the details and the main themes of scripture
as well as the fathers heart for his creation. Which is to destroy all corruptible things and bring about a new heaven and earth

in this we see Why the saints in heaven were weeping and crying and how Jesus wiped away every tear

Because old things have passed and their relatives and loved ones that are in hell have suffered the second death.

and all those who (never had a chance to hear the gospel) have an end.

Word based mystic
April 22nd, 2015, 06:57 AM
psalm 1:6 For the LORD knows the way of the righteous, But the way of the wicked will perish. appollumi to be utterly destroyed.



Psalm 9:5
You have rebuked the nations and ((destroyed)) the wicked; you have blotted out their name (for ever and ever).



Psalm 140:10
May burning coals fall on them; may they be thrown into the fire, into miry pits, never to rise.

2 thess 2:8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming

Whom the Lord shall consume . The word "consume" here - ἀναλώσει analōsei - means "to destroy;" The word would be applicable to any kind of destruction.

Timotheos
April 22nd, 2015, 03:22 PM
Under that logic you have to prove that it DOESN'T mean "To Mar" Which you have not done...



Assuming that you decide to ignore those contextual issues which I have mentioned and decide to look for whatever alternative definitions or interpretations you can find to make your argument. Let's even assume you're right. Would God be just?

Absolutely.

God is just to give eternal life to those who put their faith in Him and He is just to not give eternal life to those who reject Him. Eternal life is a gift from God and He is just in giving this gift to whoever he wants to. He does not HAVE to give the gift of eternal life to anyone. We should be thankful, not vengeful.

Aimiel
April 22nd, 2015, 03:31 PM
Eternal life holds no punishment, just as eternal punishment (un-changing torment in absolute darkness, completely alone, burned by fire and brimstone constantly with worms eating one's flesh) holds no life.

Life: the condition that distinguishes animals and plants from inorganic matter, including the capacity for growth, reproduction, functional activity, and continual change

Word based mystic
April 22nd, 2015, 05:31 PM
Eternal life holds no punishment, just as eternal punishment (un-changing torment in absolute darkness, completely alone, burned by fire and brimstone constantly with worms eating one's flesh) holds no life.

Life: the condition that distinguishes animals and plants from inorganic matter, including the capacity for growth, reproduction, functional activity, and continual change


death: umm. enough said. lol sorry had to zing ya.

eternal: from the beginning of earth and time to the end of this present earth and age. aion or aionios

punishment: to be sent to your room without food,
time out, go to jail do not pass go.
the soul and body killed or destroyed in hell matt 10:28
death the wages of sin.
also lucifers end which is described in ezekiel 28:18 (cease to be forever).

all of this comes at the end of ages, and as all things pass away. before the new heaven and earth.

Timotheos
April 22nd, 2015, 06:16 PM
Eternal life holds no punishment, just as eternal punishment (un-changing torment in absolute darkness, completely alone, burned by fire and brimstone constantly with worms eating one's flesh) holds no life.

Life: the condition that distinguishes animals and plants from inorganic matter, including the capacity for growth, reproduction, functional activity, and continual change


Those who do not have eternal life, do not have eternal life. They cannot be tormented forever, because in order to exist forever they would need to have eternal life. They do not have eternal life, only those who have eternal life have eternal life.

way 2 go
April 22nd, 2015, 08:24 PM
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

I like what Jordan said:

are they both eternal or both temporal ?


ying yang balance. once again. goobley gock not scriptural
Speculation only.


your position is not scriptural or logical :dizzy:



forever/eternal = of the age, within the age of, period of time relating to the earth and its ending.

you say eternal life ends at the earths ending
and eternal punishment ends before it begins
:burnlib:


so eternal life for the righteous vs
eternal destruction. permanent state not able to have life again no more resurrection possibility. no life.
the dead continue on in the lake of fire
spiritually dead just like they were here.

Mat_8:22 And Jesus said to him, "Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead."

Rev_20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev_20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev_20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

jamie
April 22nd, 2015, 08:52 PM
Rev_20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.


What is the penalty for sin?

Jordan Fontenot
April 23rd, 2015, 01:35 AM
Absolutely.

God is just to give eternal life to those who put their faith in Him and He is just to not give eternal life to those who reject Him. Eternal life is a gift from God and He is just in giving this gift to whoever he wants to. He does not HAVE to give the gift of eternal life to anyone. We should be thankful, not vengeful.

But if all that happens to punish those who go against a Holy and notoriously vengeful God is that He simply puts them out of their misery before they can be punished, is that justice? Just a swift Coupe de Grace so as to avoid their punishment? Do you know God to do such a thing?

Word based mystic
April 23rd, 2015, 05:04 AM
But if all that happens to punish those who go against a Holy and notoriously vengeful God is that He simply puts them out of their misery before they can be punished, is that justice? Just a swift Coupe de Grace so as to avoid their punishment? Do you know God to do such a thing?

they are punished.

death is not a punishment?????

and an ultimate punishment????

judgement day pronounces the punishment

the punishment is eternal destruction

also to perish for someone who is not imperishable.

no more life. not eternal life

you are saying the punishment is eternal life. just located elsewhere.

once again what is the punishment
what is the wages of sin

Timotheos
April 23rd, 2015, 05:14 AM
they are punished.

death is not a punishment?????

and an ultimate punishment????

judgement day pronounces the punishment

the punishment is eternal destruction

also to perish for someone who is not imperishable.

no more life. not eternal life

you are saying the punishment is eternal life. just located elsewhere.

once again what is the punishment
what is the wages of sin

You are right. It is rather stupid for someone to claim that being destroyed is not punishment. It is as if they think that having eternal life is worth nothing at all. They also have to completely ignore that the Bible specifically says that the wicked will be destroyed.

When did it become a good thing to be destroyed? That reasoning is just bizarre.

Word based mystic
April 23rd, 2015, 06:20 AM
your position is not scriptural or logical :dizzy:


[Quote]you say eternal life ends at the earths ending
and eternal punishment ends before it begins
the only kingdom that is described in scripture as (never ending) is the kingdom of God and if you are in Christ you are imperishable and indestructible. quite the opposite of the wicked who are perishible and destructible.
scripture does show that their will be suffering as the fire burns and destroys to the end of the soul perishing. this happens till the end of the age. not never ending. forever = aion till the end of the age.


the dead continue on in the lake of fire
spiritually dead just like they were here.
speculation with no scriptural support
you imply the dead are not really dead. hmmmm nice add on.


Mat_8:22 And Jesus said to him, "Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead."
specifically talking about unbelievers during that time and relating to living people as a simile. you shift it to refer to the end of age. bad bad interpretation that transfers and changes the meaning to assign it to a desperate doctrine.


Rev_20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev_20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev_20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

these scriptures prove the point of punishment as being death not life.
revelation 21:4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more

((death is no more)) what happened to it?? eternal fire destroyed it.
that is the assigned mission of the eternal fire to consume and destroy.
2 peter 3:11-12 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!
after this a ((new heaven and earth shall be)) where righteous dwells. no sin, corruption, misery in this new heaven and earth.

they are destroyed along with death, hell and the grave. ALL GONE.

Word based mystic
April 23rd, 2015, 06:27 AM
look at what happens to lucifer in

ezekiel 28:18 Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you; It has consumed you, And I have turned you to ashes on the earth In the eyes of all who see you. 19"All who know you among the peoples Are appalled at you; You have become terrified And you will (((cease to be forever.)))

psalm 37:20 But the wicked will perish; And the enemies of the LORD will be like the glory of the pastures, They vanish-- like smoke they vanish away.

and here specifically
.

Psalm 37:38
But all sinners will be destroyed; there will be no future for the wicked.

punishment is death
not life

ignore the scriptures all you want to validate your never ending torment.
it is not the Fathers heart towards his created children

genesis 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever

the Heavenly father does not desire those destined to ((perish)) to ((live)) in misery and corruption never ending.
nor is it the heart of the father to torture with no end in sight. your doctrine is sick....

Cross Reference
April 23rd, 2015, 06:39 AM
look at what happens to lucifer in

ezekiel 28:18 Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you; It has consumed you, And I have turned you to ashes on the earth In the eyes of all who see you. 19"All who know you among the peoples Are appalled at you; You have become terrified And you will (((cease to be forever.)))

psalm 37:20 But the wicked will perish; And the enemies of the LORD will be like the glory of the pastures, They vanish-- like smoke they vanish away.

and here specifically
.

Psalm 37:38
But all sinners will be destroyed; there will be no future for the wicked.

punishment is death
not life

ignore the scriptures all you want to validate your never ending torment.
it is not the Fathers heart towards his created children

genesis 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever

the Heavenly father does not desire those destined to ((perish)) to ((live)) in misery and corruption never ending.
nor is it the heart of the father to torture with no end in sight. your doctrine is sick....

But, the soul of man cannot die. Had that been the end of Adam's transgression, in the literal sense, Adam and Eve would never have been ejected from the garden. There would have been no need to.

chrysostom
April 23rd, 2015, 06:42 AM
But, the soul of man cannot die.

based on what?

Word based mystic
April 23rd, 2015, 06:49 AM
But, the soul of man cannot die. Had that been the end of Adam's transgression, in the literal sense, Adam and Eve would never have been ejected from the garden. There would have been no need to.

too many scriptures point to the unredeemed/wicked shall be destroyed.

they are described in contrast as corruptible, perishable.
to perish apollumi = to utterly destroy

matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell

soul and body in context with (kill) and (destroy)

i am open to any convincing argument with much support scripturally that the soul is immortal or eternal or never ending or never perish or dies.

I have only found the opposite with much thematic and scriptural support.

Cross Reference
April 23rd, 2015, 06:52 AM
a voice crying in the wilderness crying out __ help me help me !! I can't see:chrysost:

Word based mystic
April 23rd, 2015, 06:55 AM
the reason God seemed to eject adam and eve was to not allow them to access/partake of eternal life.

especially in that state of misery and decay

thus God did not desire man to have never ending life in that sinful state.
His plan was to either have them receive eternal life through Christ or after resurrection/judgement those not being found in book of (life) shall perish, or destruction in a permanent/eternal fashion.
eternal life being the reward
eternal destruction or 2nd death (wages of sin) is the punishment of wicked

Cross Reference
April 23rd, 2015, 06:57 AM
too many scriptures point to the unredeemed/wicked shall be destroyed.

they are described in contrast as corruptible, perishable.
to perish apollumi = to utterly destroy

matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell

soul and body in context with (kill) and (destroy)

i am open to any convincing argument with much support scripturally that the soul is immortal or eternal or never ending or never perish or dies.

I have only found the opposite with much thematic and scriptural support.


I would say the account of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus, would a good place to start. Lu 16:20-25.

In speaking of eternity:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." John 6:47 (KJV)

In contrast that intimates what except, everlasting death? And why not, given why we were redeemed.

jamie
April 23rd, 2015, 06:58 AM
based on what?


Based on Satan' lie. To this day people believe Satan instead of God.

Word based mystic
April 23rd, 2015, 07:03 AM
I would say the account of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus, would a good place to start. Lu 16:20-25.

obviously prior to judgement day and 2nd death.

for in revelation 21
rev 21:4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.

Word based mystic
April 23rd, 2015, 07:07 AM
also in revelation 22

no more curse exists
There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him; 4 they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. 5 And there will no longer be any night; and they [d]will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.

no more night.

new heaven and earth is where righteous dwells implying no more sin, decay, corruption.

Cross Reference
April 23rd, 2015, 07:12 AM
[QUOTE]the reason God seemed to eject adam and eve was to not allow them to access/partake of eternal life.

Indeed, but, why? Could it be they would have become as God is but, in a fallen state that could never be redeemed and in eternal collision with Satan.


especially in that state of misery and decay

What misery and decay?


thus God did not desire man to have never ending life in that sinful state.

Indeed again, He didn't. Ergo the necessity of proving Adam and, lest we forget, Jesus.


His plan was to either have them receive eternal life through Christ or after resurrection/judgement those not being found in book of (life) shall perish, or destruction in a permanent/eternal fashion.
eternal life being the reward
eternal destruction or 2nd death (wages of sin) is the punishment of wicked

But, physically perish?? Twice??

"Therefore the redeemed of the LORD shall return, and come with singing unto Zion; and everlasting joy shall be upon their head: they shall obtain gladness and joy; and sorrow and mourning shall flee away. Isaiah 51:11 (KJV)

"For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh." Isaiah 66:22-24 (KJV)

Cross Reference
April 23rd, 2015, 07:20 AM
[QUOTE]obviously prior to judgement day and 2nd death.

Forever, is forever. It doesn't mean something else. So why presume when there is no reason to, no cause that it serves.

I edited my last posts.

Cross Reference
April 23rd, 2015, 07:21 AM
also in revelation 22

no more curse exists
There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him; 4 they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. 5 And there will no longer be any night; and they [d]will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.

no more night.

new heaven and earth is where righteous dwells implying no more sin, decay, corruption.

But it is speaking of Heaven and Earth __ not Hell.

Cross Reference
April 23rd, 2015, 07:24 AM
And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life [presence of God] maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Mark 9:42-43 (KJV)

Word based mystic
April 23rd, 2015, 07:27 AM
[QUOTE=Word based mystic;4297749]

[QUOTE]Indeed, but, why? Could it be they would have become as God is but, in a fallen state that could never be redeemed and in eternal collision with Satan.

preventing man from accessing eternal life.
(They did not have it.)

a soul that is indestructible and imperishable has eternal life.

there would have been no need to stop them from accessing eternal life if the soul is immortal.

the reward is eternal life.





But, physically perish?? Twice??

resurrected for judgement and then the punishment (2nd death) is totality both body and soul this time.

ergo. matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell

Cross Reference
April 23rd, 2015, 07:59 AM
[QUOTE=Cross Reference;4297755][QUOTE=Word based mystic;4297749]

preventing man from accessing eternal life.
(They did not have it.)

Ah, but they did. However, now it was eternally separated from God. It was not, as yet, "one of Us and live forever"for which now needed that only Jesus Christ could provide for 4000 yrs later.

[QUOTE]a soul that is indestructible and imperishable has eternal life.

. . . and the fire never quenches for that one who is not reconciled to God, who is cast into hell.


there would have been no need to stop them from accessing eternal life if the soul is immortal.

. . only if they had never transgressed, you are correct. But they did transgress, now what?


the reward is eternal life.

It would have been more than that and there would have been no need for redeeming mankind to make it happen.

Why not ponder the effects of what a problem it would posed for God had He allowed Adam to eat of the tree of life, to become as He is, in his fallen state? Think about it for the various impositions it would have had on God in having to deal with something equal to Himself but with an opposing eternal purpose He could not defeat..


resurrected for judgement and then the punishment (2nd death) is totality both body and soul this time.

So man enjoys a "soul sleep", is then awakened only to die again? Why?? What would be the point in that?


ergo. matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell

OK. That is to do with fearing God?

Why do believe the suicide victim chooses his way?

Word based mystic
April 23rd, 2015, 08:27 AM
[QUOTE=Word based mystic;4297768][QUOTE=Cross Reference;4297755][QUOTE=Word based mystic;4297749]

preventing man from accessing eternal life.
(They did not have it.)

Ah, but they did. However, now it was eternally separated from God. It was not, as yet, "one of Us and live forever"for which now needed that only Jesus Christ could provide for 4000 yrs later.



[QUOTE]. . . and the fire never quenches for that one who is not reconciled to God, who is cast into hell.

yes the fire does not stop it is eternal who or what fire has that type of character? from what mouth does it come? Who is an all consuming fire? is anything other than God have never ending existence?





. . only if they had never transgressed, you are correct. But they did transgress, now what?
resurrection and judgement for the display of justice and the punishment is the wages of sin (death) perish. cease to exist ezekiel 28:18





It would have been more than that and there would have been no need for redeeming mankind to make it happen.

Why not ponder the effects of what a problem it would posed for God had He allowed Adam to eat of the tree of life, to become as He is, in his fallen state? Think about it for the various impositions it would have had on God in having to deal with something equal to Himself but with an opposing eternal purpose He could not defeat..

that is a consideration but is a speculative conundrum.
But being God the Father and Spirit He is not subject to His creation/time and matter. And with a simple thought could cease to exist any of created matter or beings.
None of His created beings could be equal or infinite.
especially since all of (creation) subsists, exists and is held together by His power and could not exist on its own if power is withdrawn.



So man enjoys a "soul sleep", is then awakened only to die again? Why?? What would be the point in that?
judgement and justice and an example to angelic beings the punishment for the wicked. thus by negative example men give judgement to powers and principalities.
also to reinforce and validate to the condemned/judged person as to the reason for 2nd death to perish and destruction.




OK. That is to do with fearing God?

ahh fullness of the rest of that scripture shows what will happen to those that end up in hell. specifically the body and soul will ultimately be destroyed and killed.


Why do believe the suicide victim chooses his way?
to cease the pain of his existence i assume.
if a suicide victim fully understood punishment as never ending torment i am sure if the person was reasonable and sane that person would repent.

way 2 go
April 23rd, 2015, 08:33 PM
the only kingdom that is described in scripture as (never ending) is the kingdom of God and if you are in Christ you are imperishable and indestructible. quite the opposite of the wicked who are perishible and destructible.
scripture does show that their will be suffering as the fire burns and destroys to the end of the soul perishing. this happens till the end of the age. not never ending. forever = aion till the end of the age.
are they both eternal or both temporal ?
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."



you imply the dead are not really dead. hmmmm nice add on.
not implied it is fact
Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins


Mat_8:22 And Jesus said to him, "Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead."


specifically talking about unbelievers during that time and relating to living people as a simile.

Jesus refers to living unbelievers as dead, nice to see you got that

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins



these scriptures prove the point of punishment as being death not life.
revelation 21:4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more

((death is no more)) what happened to it??

Rev_20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

and what happens to those thrown into the lake of fire

Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

way 2 go
April 23rd, 2015, 08:43 PM
Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
Rev_20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.

What is the penalty for sin?
thrown into the lake of fire


Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

and what happens to those thrown into the lake of fire

Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Timotheos
April 24th, 2015, 03:47 AM
But if all that happens to punish those who go against a Holy and notoriously vengeful God is that He simply puts them out of their misery before they can be punished, is that justice? Just a swift Coupe de Grace so as to avoid their punishment? Do you know God to do such a thing?

Your mistake is equating "being completely destroyed" with "avoiding punishment". You must have a very low view of eternal life. Did you completely forget that God's Word says "the wages of sin is death", "the wicked shall perish and will be no more", "their end is destruction", "They will be burnt up like chaff", etc etc etc throughout the Bible???

You ask "Do I know of God to do such a thing?" Actually, I do.
The Bible says (In both Peter's AND Jude's letters) that the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is an EXAMPLE of the coming punishment of the wicked. So it is completely undeniable by any reasonable person, the wicked will be destroyed on the Day of Destruction of the UnGodly and they will not be given eternal life in hell being tortured alive forever while they are dead.

Jamie asked "What is the penalty for sin?

What is the penalty for sin?
According to the Bible, the wages of sin is death.

Mr Way2go says the penalty for sin is to be thrown into the lake of fire. I think he is saying that the person tossed in there will inherit eternal life in the flames. No, the Bible specifically says that the lake of fire is the second death, so this agrees with the Bible passage that says that the wages of sin is death.

Aimiel
April 24th, 2015, 04:02 AM
According to the Bible, the wages of sin is death. Did you forget that also, according to The Bible, after death comes judgment?

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.

Why should any judgment be necessary if men who die are going to be raised from the dead just to be put to death? Simply doesn't make sense.

Cross Reference
April 24th, 2015, 05:04 AM
[QUOTE=Cross Reference;4297791][QUOTE=Word based mystic;4297768][QUOTE=Cross Reference;4297755][QUOTE=Word based mystic;4297749]

[QUOTE]preventing man from accessing eternal life.
(They did not have it.)

Ah, but they did. However, not as God intended for Adam and his progeny. it was now eternally inaccessible, made so by Adam's disobedience. It could not be, "one of Us and live forever [as one of Us]". The way was guarded by the Angel which now only Jesus Christ could provide access but, 4000 yrs later and by our "overcoming" as Jesus overcame and by the way He did it, i.e., dying to self..


yes the fire does not stop it is eternal who or what fire has that type of character? from what mouth does it come? Who is an all consuming fire? is anything other than God have never ending existence?

God is a "Consuming fire", however, His Fire is an activity of the Holy Spirit by the Baptism of Jesus Christ [Pentecost] designed to consume anything in the life of Christian [disciple] that is contrary to the indwelling Life of the Word of the Son of God resulting in Paul saying this: "I live by the Faith of the Son OF God" Gal.2:20 KJV.



resurrection and judgement for the display of justice and the punishment is the wages of sin (death) perish. cease to exist ezekiel 28:18

You still have handle the passages I have cited. Where do they fit it into your thinking this through?


that is a consideration but is a speculative conundrum.

Not at all, if you remember that Jesus was/is called the second Adam and we make the comparison to see how God desired for Adam to perform that would have made the future redemption of man, unnecessary.


But being God the Father and Spirit He is not subject to His creation/time and matter. And with a simple thought could cease to exist any of created matter or beings.

Not if He decreed a thing. Again, an absolute here, even the king cannot reverse his own decrees. That, I believe, is why we have the book of Esther that reveals that fact. That is also why Rom 1 is so important, as Paul spoke of reprobation being by decree as David defined it per Ps 29:1 KJV; Rom 1:28 KJV.


None of His created beings could be equal or infinite.

What if they are born from above?? Created in Christ?? His Body?? Progeny of the Holy Spirit?


especially since all of (creation) subsists, exists and is held together by His power and could not exist on its own if power is withdrawn.

That is meant to be understood for the here and now, not eternity.


judgement and justice and an example to angelic beings the punishment for the wicked. thus by negative example men give judgement to powers and principalities.
also to reinforce and validate to the condemned/judged person as to the reason for 2nd death to perish and destruction.

????? Too convoluted for me to grasp.



ahh fullness of the rest of that scripture shows what will happen to those that end up in hell. specifically the body and soul will ultimately be destroyed and killed.

Did not God have a soul? Is it perishable? Were we not created in His image?


to cease the pain of his existence i assume.

Hell is where God isn't. Everything in opposition to His Love will reside there. Hell was setup for the devil and his angels. Man will go there by his own volition __ without remedy or appeal.


if a suicide victim fully understood punishment as never ending torment i am sure if the person was reasonable and sane that person would repent.

How can you be sure?? What hope is there for the one who, to the end and against all reason, says: "I will have no God over me"? Is not that the example given us in Rom 1:28 KJV of those who did?

Word based mystic
April 24th, 2015, 05:10 AM
are they both eternal or both temporal ?
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

once again what is the punishment?? it is the 2nd death, to perish. matthew 10:28

not implied it is fact

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins

yup that death with men started in adam He died spiritually
his soul no longer can attain eternal/imperishable/incorruptible status unless in Christ.
pretty simple




Jesus refers to living unbelievers as dead, nice to see you got that

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins

always have. you however don't understand that the wages of sin is death


Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.[/QUOTE]

yup forever = aion NOT ((never ending))
cease to be forever even happens to lucifer
ezekiel 28:18 Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you; It has consumed you, And I have turned you to ashes on the earth In the eyes of all who see you. 19"All who know you among the peoples Are appalled at you; You have become terrified And you will (((cease to be forever.)))"'"

Cross Reference
April 24th, 2015, 05:31 AM
once again what is the punishment?? it is the 2nd death, to perish. matthew 10:28

not implied it is fact


yup that death with men started in adam He died spiritually
his soul no longer can attain eternal/imperishable/incorruptible status unless in Christ.
pretty simple




always have. you however don't understand that the wages of sin is death


Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

yup forever = aion NOT ((never ending))
cease to be forever even happens to lucifer
ezekiel 28:18 Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you; It has consumed you, And I have turned you to ashes on the earth In the eyes of all who see you. 19"All who know you among the peoples Are appalled at you; You have become terrified And you will (((cease to be forever.)))"'"

Could it be, WBM, you are missing what the word death implies in all this? You mentioned Adam dying a Spiritual death. Why not consider that spiritual death is a different kind of dying? One that cannot end.

Timotheos
April 24th, 2015, 11:55 AM
Did you forget that also, according to The Bible, after death comes judgment?

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.

Why should any judgment be necessary if men who die are going to be raised from the dead just to be put to death? Simply doesn't make sense.

I'm sure that it doesn't make sense To You.
The dead are resurrected so that they can stand before Jesus Christ for Judgment. After that they are sentenced to death or given eternal life.
You are taking the Hebrews passage out of context. It isn't saying that there isn't a second death for sinners. If it were, the Bible would not talk about the second death. Read the context.

Now here is what doesn't make sense to me about your view. If bad people go to hell when they die where they are eternally tormented, why would God resurrect them from eternal torment and then send them back to hell for a second round of eternal conscious torment? Why would God bother to do that? For that matter, why would God send them to eternal conscious torment the first time, since they would not have been sentenced to eternal conscious torment until after Judgment Day? Does your God sentence people to eternal conscious torment without a trial of any kind?

Since this justification for eternal torment didn't work, why don't you try to think up a different justification for believing the doctrine that you want to believe? Or you could simply believe what the Bible says, as I do.

Lazy afternoon
April 24th, 2015, 06:16 PM
Some clues --

Goats do not refer to all the unsaved.

Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

consider EZ.ch 34

and--

Isa 24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
Isa 24:22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
Isa 24:23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

LA

Word based mystic
April 24th, 2015, 06:55 PM
Could it be, WBM, you are missing what the word death implies in all this? You mentioned Adam dying a Spiritual death. Why not consider that spiritual death is a different kind of dying? One that cannot end.

will discuss when possible. this is my busy season.

much to consider with that perspective.

are all souls imperishable and indestructible.
is the first death in the garden and spiritual death of the spirit not soul.
is the 2nd death the soul and body in totality after judgement. matt 10:28
words like perish [appollumi] to totally destroy, utterly destroy.
words like destruction
cease to be forever.

will the new heaven and earth have hell and the grave in it.

what is the function of the eternal fire
what or who is the fire or aspect of the fire.

considering that modern christians redefine (forever) to mean never ending.

the new heaven and earth that will be shall have righteousness. does that mean no death, sin, wickedness exists.

mainly though is it in the heavenly fathers character to be a torturer for his created children that chose the freewill option to not follow Christ. with never putting the wicked out of their misery after judgement and punishment of death.

could any father knowingly create or birth a child with the intent to torture without end if they are not obedient?

death being the punishment is conducive to His being merciful even in the midst of his judgement. psalms 145:17 The LORD is righteous in all His ways And ((kind in all His deeds))

Aimiel
April 25th, 2015, 04:27 AM
You are taking the Hebrews passage out of context. It isn't saying that there isn't a second death for sinners. If it were, the Bible would not talk about the second death. I know that the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where Satan, the 'beast' or Anti-Christ (who is a man, possessed by Satan) and the false prophet (who is a man also) will be tormented forever as well as all those whose names were not found in The Lamb's Book of Life is called: "The Second Death," but also realize that eternal conscious torment in said lake is not life.

Life = "the condition that distinguishes animals and plants from inorganic matter, including the capacity for growth, reproduction, functional activity, and continual change preceding death"

Certainly those who are in the Lake of Fire and Brimstone have no capacity for growth, reproduction, functional activity or even change of any kind. That condition being referred to as 'death' is no stretch of the imagination. Thinking The Lord Himself would describe the eternal torments of that lake only to make a story more pointed or to frighten someone IS a wicked stretch of the imagination. Jesus told us what hell is like and what the Lake of Fire and Brimstone is like so that we know the Truth of the matter, not so that we might try to explain it way with conjecture or use His Own Words against His Teachings so that we could appease our consciences.
Now here is what doesn't make sense to me about your view. If bad people go to hell when they die where they are eternally tormented, why would God resurrect them from eternal torment and then send them back to hell for a second round of eternal conscious torment?Hell is not eternal torment. It is the domain of Satan. He was given the keys to this world by Adam. Christ now has those keys, but in order to escape Satan's dominion, one must first have faith in Christ. Those who don't are his puppets, even after death. When Satan is un-seated at judgment and men are thrown into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, the real torment begins. Hell indeed is torture, but nothing can be compared to what is in store for them in the Lake.
Why would God bother to do that? You'll have to ask Him. He's The One Who said it, I just believe His Word. I don't doubt that what He said will come to pass.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
For that matter, why would God send them to eternal conscious torment the first time, since they would not have been sentenced to eternal conscious torment until after Judgment Day? Because they're playing for the wrong team.
Does your God sentence people to eternal conscious torment without a trial of any kind?God is just. Those who enter hell upon death know they belong there, just as those who have faith in Christ know they belong in Heaven. The only difference is The Blood of Jesus and the word of their testimony.
Since this justification for eternal torment didn't work, why don't you try to think up a different justification for believing the doctrine that you want to believe? There is no escaping the justification for eternal conscious torment. Those who've sinned deserve their fate, or God wouldn't give it to them.
Or you could simply believe what the Bible says, as I do.I believe Scripture. That makes one of us. You have crossed out the verses you don't believe. I believe ALL of Them.

Cross Reference
April 25th, 2015, 04:53 AM
will discuss when possible. this is my busy season.

much to consider with that perspective.

are all souls imperishable and indestructible.
is the first death in the garden and spiritual death of the spirit not soul.
is the 2nd death the soul and body in totality after judgement. matt 10:28
words like perish [appollumi] to totally destroy, utterly destroy.
words like destruction
cease to be forever.

will the new heaven and earth have hell and the grave in it.

what is the function of the eternal fire
what or who is the fire or aspect of the fire.

considering that modern christians redefine (forever) to mean never ending.

the new heaven and earth that will be shall have righteousness. does that mean no death, sin, wickedness exists.

mainly though is it in the heavenly fathers character to be a torturer for his created children that chose the freewill option to not follow Christ. with never putting the wicked out of their misery after judgement and punishment of death.

could any father knowingly create or birth a child with the intent to torture without end if they are not obedient?

death being the punishment is conducive to His being merciful even in the midst of his judgement. psalms 145:17 The LORD is righteous in all His ways And ((kind in all His deeds))


I believe you are going in the wrong direction with your questions. For instance, you should know that death is not a punishment but a, consequence. The consequence of not realizing that will only result in making foolish accusations against God ang a total inability to think through other issues. I would "repent".

Cross Reference
April 25th, 2015, 04:55 AM
Some clues --

Goats do not refer to all the unsaved.

LA

But the consequence of being one is the same __maybe worse.

Word based mystic
April 25th, 2015, 04:58 AM
aimiel

Jesus describes both the (body) and soul as being thrown in to hell to be destroyed which hell will be thrown in to the fire for the 2nd death

you ignore much scripture and change many definitions
like perish
destroyed
cease to be forever
change the meaning of forever to be never ending
ignore genesis 3:22 Gods desire that his created children NOT live in a state of decay, misery and sin for eternity.
ignore the purpose of fire
imply the fire cant do what it was designed to do

your own idea of death being a being contradicts the fact that death will be no more. if death was similar to fallen angels in your idea that would be impossible for death is a being like the angels


ignore the end of lucifer in ezekiel 28:18

ignore the many scriptures that state the wicked shall perish and or vanish away after being burned up. psalms multiple.

ignore the scriptures that say the wicked shall no longer be remembered.

you don't address the main issue of the Fatherly heart character of God
creating children and never putting them out of their misery by means of the 2nd death
rather it is his great pleasure to torture them never ending.
no father would create a child and give them free will and then if the free will to go their own way was taken then that child is chained up in the barn and kept alive with no end in sight and tortured

sick
sick
not the heart of a father let alone a God whom (psalms 145:17 The LORD is righteous in all His ways And ((kind in all His deeds))

reshaping the word meaning of (death) is what the ect people do with forever
they take the definition out of modern english not greek or hebrew. you have used a modern (changed) definition of death while the hebrew word is [thanatoo] to kill (like matt 10:28 Jesus describes) also (become dead) (put to death) and especially related to (mortality) thus the greek definitions
you add. and expound to this very clear definition. sadly like most using modern english meanings of words to change the hebrew/greek meanings to accommodate ECT never ending Torment by a fatherly figure.

life in greek defined as (zao) a verb reflecting (to live) also a (life time) get that time thing related to this world point to the age of relating to this material world.
all your add on conditions are not there and are obtained from some science dictionary or modern english dictionary and does NOT prove your point.

Cross Reference
April 25th, 2015, 05:08 AM
aimiel

Jesus describes both the (body) and soul as being thrown in to hell to be destroyed which hell will be thrown in to the fire for the 2nd death

you ignore much scripture and change many definitions
like perish
destroyed
cease to be forever
change the meaning of forever to be never ending
ignore genesis 3:22 Gods desire that his created children NOT live in a state of decay, misery and sin for eternity.
ignore the purpose of fire
imply the fire cant do what it was designed to do

your own idea of death being a being contradicts the fact that death will be no more. if death was similar to fallen angels in your idea that would be impossible

ignore the end of lucifer in ezekiel 28:18

ignore the many scriptures that state the wicked shall perish and or vanish away after being burned up. psalms multiple.

ignore the scriptures that say the wicked shall no longer be remembered.

you don't address the main issue of the Fatherly heart character of God
creating children and never putting them out of their misery by means of the 2nd death
rather it is his great pleasure to torture them never ending.
no father would create a child and give them free will and then if the free will to go their own way was taken then that child is chained up in the barn and kept alive with no end in sight and tortured

sick
sick
not the heart of a father let alone a God whom (psalms 145:17 The LORD is righteous in all His ways And ((kind in all His deeds))

Are you an SDA?

Timotheos
April 25th, 2015, 05:10 AM
You have crossed out the verses you don't believe. I believe ALL of Them.
I haven't crossed out any verses. That is a strong accusation and should be backed up by strong proof. Which verses do you think that I don't believe? Be specific, since you are making such a bold statement.

The fact is that YOU have crossed out the verses that YOU don't believe. Here is a list of verses that you don't believe.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
You don't believe that the penalty for sin is death but rather eternal living torment in hell. You don't believe that eternal life is a gift from God, you believe eternal life is an automatic perk of being human.
John 3:16
You don't believe that the lost really will perish just as John 3:16 says.
2 Thessalonians 1:9
"These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction..."
You don't believe that the penalty is destruction.
Luke 13:3
"Unless you repent, you will likewise perish".
You don't believe that those who refuse to repent will perish.
Matthew 3:12
"He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."
You don't believe that the chaff will be burnt up.
Philippians 3:19
"Their destiny is destruction".
You don't believe that their destiny is destruction but eternal living torment instead.
Ezekiel 18:4
"The soul who sins shall die"
You don't believe that the soul CAN even die. You believe that the soul who sins will not die but will live forever in hell being tormented alive.
1 John 5:11-12
"And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life."
You don't believe that God gives us eternal life, you believe that everyone already automatically has eternal life. You don't believe that eternal life is in God's Son, since you believe that those who reject Christ also have eternal life in hell being tormented alive forever and you do not believe that whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (Greek: Gehenna)
You don't believe that the body and soul will be destroyed in Gehenna.
Psalm 37:20
"The wicked will perish"
You believe that the wicked will not perish, but will live forever in hell being tormented.
Psalm 37:10
"The wicked will be no more"
You don't believe that the wicked will be no more, you believe that they will continue to be conscious forever and in torment in hell, directly contradicting what the Bible specifically says.
Psalm 37:38
"The wicked will be altogether destroyed".
You believe the opposite of this, that the wicked will be preserved alive forever in hell being tormented alive forever.

The fact is that I believe all of the Bible, and you do not. The Bible specifically agrees with what I am saying and the Bible does not agree with your doctrine in any passage.
Here is what I believe, followed by what the Bible says:
The wicked will perish. Psalm 37:20 "the wicked will perish".
The wicked will be no more. Psalm 37:10 "the wicked will be no more".
The penalty for sin is death. Romans 6:23a "the wages of sin is death".
Eternal life is a gift from God given only to those who are in Christ. Romans 6:23b "but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Why don't you give up your false doctrine of torture which doesn't have any support in Scripture and believe the gospel message that eternal life is only found in Christ? Wouldn't it be better to be found on Judgment Day believing the Word of God rather than rejecting it?

Timotheos
April 25th, 2015, 05:11 AM
Are you an SDA?

Are you a Muslim?

Aimiel
April 25th, 2015, 05:12 AM
Jesus describes both the (body) and soul as being thrown in to hell to be destroyed which hell will be thrown in to the fire for the 2nd deathI never said He didn't. Hell is a spirit, just like Death is a spirit. They both must be punished. That doesn't mean that they are annihilated, which isn't Scriptural, it just means they're tormented forever, just like all the rest of the wicked.
you ignore much scripture and change many definitionsI don't.
like perishWhat if God allows flesh to regenerate so that those in torment can feel it being destroyed by flames and worms again and again and again (ad infinitum)? Are they perishing? Are they being tormented by flames and worms forever, just like The Bible says? Yep. And perishing forever, just like The Bible says, also? Yep.
destroyedYep. Burned up. Regenerated, burned up, regenerated, burned up... etc., etc., etc...
cease to be foreverThey're not in Heaven (or even the New Heaven or New Earth) they're not found any more in the land of the living.
change the meaning of forever to be never endingAren't they already synonymous?
ignore genesis 3:22 Gods desire that his created children NOT live in a state of decay, misery and sin for eternity.God desires that no one sin. He desired that angels should never sin. He desires many things that never happen. He will also cry at the judgment of every single soul. Who can wipe away His Tears?
ignore the purpose of fireI ignore nothing.
imply the fire cant do what it was designed to doIt was designed for torment, as The Bible says.
your own idea of death being a being contradicts the fact that death will be no more. It isn't my idea. However, I fail to see what you mean.
if death was similar to fallen angels in your idea that would be impossibleAgain, I don't get your point.
ignore the scriptures that say the wicked shall no longer be remembered.Why should we remember those who hate God? Those who chose death have it, for eternity.
you don't address the main issue of the Fatherly heart character of God
creating children and never putting them out of their misery by means of the 2nd deathI don't have to. God is just. He isn't JUST a Lamb. He is The God of Vengeance.
rather it is his great pleasure to torture them never ending.God cannot take pleasure in anyone's torment. Trust me. It breaks His Heart, even the torment of Satan. Thinking that He takes ANY pleasure in ANY pain is sick.

Word based mystic
April 25th, 2015, 05:30 AM
fire designed to destroy and consume and to cause to perish and kill
pretty clear.

torment is the after affect of the destruction
and will be heard till the end of the age.

if death is a being which lives eternally just in hell how can the eternal fire cause death to be (NO MORE)

forever is not and never was synonymous with never ending.

you refuse to see the definition as it is. (till the end of the age)

you speak of the fire as burning and then regenerating where is that
that is reincarnation

and the fire utterly destroys both body and soul thus the definition of perish appollumi to utterly destroy.

Word based mystic
April 25th, 2015, 05:36 AM
your idea of constant regeneration in the lake of fire contradicts you definition of death which has no life and regenerative properties.

this is not an episode of heroes where claire the cheerleader can regenerate after being destroyed.

only God resurrects someone and to life and regeneration
and you agree there will be no more life in eternal fire

i added a bit to my first post earlier this am

Aimiel
April 25th, 2015, 05:53 AM
your idea of constant regeneration in the lake of fire contradicts you definition of death which has no life and regenerative properties. Not when the sole purpose of the re-generation of said flesh is so that it can be burned and eaten again and again and again.
this is not an episode of heroes where claire the cheerleader can regenerate after being destroyed. only God resurrects someone and to life and regeneration and you agree there will be no more life in eternal fireGod created hell for the devil and his angels. I believe He knows what He's doing, whether anyone on earth does or not.

Word based mystic
April 25th, 2015, 06:04 AM
Not when the sole purpose of the re-generation of said flesh is so that it can be burned and eaten again and again and again. God created hell for the devil and his angels. I believe He knows what He's doing, whether anyone on earth does or not.

yes and you can't show me where the soul has the power to regenerate
which by the way is a definition of life or eternal life.

or also a power of resurrection.
or reincarnation.

so do the wicked have eternal life or are they destined to perish


matt 10:28 destroy the body and soul
also in context with (kill)
are you saying God cant do what He says He will do?
which is to utterly destroy the soul of the wicked perish (appollumi)

that the wicked soul is immortal and has eternal life/regeneration/resurrection

Aimiel
April 25th, 2015, 06:31 AM
yes and you can't show me where the soul has the power to regenerateWhat little we know of hell shows me that it is either this or worms don't actually eat flesh, they just chew on it and flames don't actually destroy flesh, they just torment it; either way: it takes place. The rich man in hell was able to speak to Abraham, so I imagine one or the other is taking place right now.
so do the wicked have eternal life or are they destined to perishThey perish, for eternity, in agony of flames.
are you saying God cant do what He says He will do?Are you?

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Cross Reference
April 25th, 2015, 07:17 AM
aimiel

Jesus describes both the (body) and soul as being thrown in to hell to be destroyed which hell will be thrown in to the fire for the 2nd death

you ignore much scripture and change many definitions
like perish
destroyed
cease to be forever
change the meaning of forever to be never ending
ignore genesis 3:22 Gods desire that his created children NOT live in a state of decay, misery and sin for eternity.
ignore the purpose of fire
imply the fire cant do what it was designed to do

your own idea of death being a being contradicts the fact that death will be no more. if death was similar to fallen angels in your idea that would be impossible for death is a being like the angels


ignore the end of lucifer in ezekiel 28:18

ignore the many scriptures that state the wicked shall perish and or vanish away after being burned up. psalms multiple.

ignore the scriptures that say the wicked shall no longer be remembered.

you don't address the main issue of the Fatherly heart character of God
creating children and never putting them out of their misery by means of the 2nd death
rather it is his great pleasure to torture them never ending.
no father would create a child and give them free will and then if the free will to go their own way was taken then that child is chained up in the barn and kept alive with no end in sight and tortured

sick
sick
not the heart of a father let alone a God whom (psalms 145:17 The LORD is righteous in all His ways And ((kind in all His deeds))

reshaping the word meaning of (death) is what the ect people do with forever
they take the definition out of modern english not greek or hebrew. you have used a modern (changed) definition of death while the hebrew word is [thanatoo] to kill (like matt 10:28 Jesus describes) also (become dead) (put to death) and especially related to (mortality) thus the greek definitions
you add. and expound to this very clear definition. sadly like most using modern english meanings of words to change the hebrew/greek meanings to accommodate ECT never ending Torment by a fatherly figure.

life in greek defined as (zao) a verb reflecting (to live) also a (life time) get that time thing related to this world point to the age of relating to this material world.
all your add on conditions are not there and are obtained from some science dictionary or modern english dictionary and does NOT prove your point.

And you ignore Jesus' own words that need no interpretation: "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched" Mark 9:43 (KJV)

Do something with that instead of ignoring it like it isn't there for us to take as being what the lake of fire will be like?

Again I ask, are you an SDA?

jamie
April 25th, 2015, 08:02 AM
Fire requires fuel, heat, air. If the fuel or air is impeded the fire is not quenched, it simply dies out.

Word based mystic
April 25th, 2015, 10:18 AM
[QUOTE=jamie;4299727]Fire requires fuel, heat, air. If the fuel or air is impeded the fire is not quenched, it simply dies out.[/QUOTE

exactly and at the end of the ages which is a period of time relational to the earth.

a new heaven and earth shall be.

all things that are consumable will have been consumed.

all things that perish will have been utterly destroyed.

God himself is an all consuming fire

from his mouth He will destroy his enemies

yet God Whom is an all consuming fire continues to burn

are you saying that God cannot make a fire that continues.

or are you saying that God is carnal and burns himself up continually

that one single point of fire does not prove that the soul is immortal
or imperishable or incorruptible or indestructible.

but scripture shows the wicked soul is destructible and is the destinerd to be destroyed. matthew 10:28
and ezekiel 28:18 shows how lucifer shall be consumed and cease to be forever.........

Word based mystic
April 25th, 2015, 10:32 AM
And you ignore Jesus' own words that need no interpretation: "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched" Mark 9:43 (KJV)

Do something with that instead of ignoring it like it isn't there for us to take as being what the lake of fire will be like?

Again I ask, are you an SDA?

yup the fire is eternal

where does it say the soul is eternal

fire either conumes or purifies.

and to compliment your scripture which is quite plain

matthew 10:28 shows the end result of the eternal fire destroying and consuming
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

quite simple and plain and affirms the meaning of perish, destroy, vanish, cease to be forever.

Word based mystic
April 25th, 2015, 10:34 AM
CR what is an SDA???

soul destroyers anonymous?? just kidding

i dont know what that is..

Cross Reference
April 25th, 2015, 11:23 AM
CR what is an SDA???

soul destroyers anonymous?? just kidding

i dont know what that is..

Are you a Seventh Day Adventist?

Whether you are or not, what is the problem for believing the fire will not be quenched, per God's word: ' . . . . . "if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched" Mark 9:43 (KJV)? Doesn't that agree with the account of the rich man and Lazarus?
And this account of things as they will be, as well per Rev 14:11 KJV.

Timotheos
April 25th, 2015, 03:10 PM
Again I ask, are you an SDA?

You haven't told me yet if you are a muslim. Muslims believe in eternal conscious torment.

way 2 go
April 25th, 2015, 03:25 PM
Fire requires fuel, heat, air. If the fuel or air is impeded the fire is not quenched, it simply dies out.
natural laws do not apply to the lake of fire

Cross Reference
April 25th, 2015, 05:18 PM
You haven't told me yet if you are a muslim. Muslims believe in eternal conscious torment.

So do Christians.

Timotheos
April 26th, 2015, 02:07 AM
So do Christians.
Does that mean you are a Muslim or not?
Regular Christians also believe that the wages of sin is death, so why do you assume someone is SDA if they believe that the wages of sin is death?

If sharing a belief with Seventh Day Adventists makes a person a SDA, then sharing a belief with Muslims must make you a Muslim. Otherwise why you ask WBM if he is SDA?

Your question is not valid. You are attempting to "poison the well". I might as well say "Adolf Hitler believed in eternal conscious torment in hell (which is actually true) so ECT is false."

Timotheos
April 26th, 2015, 02:11 AM
CR what is an SDA???

soul destroyers anonymous?? just kidding

i dont know what that is..

He is attempting to link you to a Christian group that he doesn't like in an attempt to discredit you since he can't actually prove that you are wrong. It is a tactic known as "Poisoning the Well" and it is what people do when they have lost the debate. Ask him if he is Catholic.

Lazy afternoon
April 26th, 2015, 03:02 AM
What little we know of hell shows me that it is either this or worms don't actually eat flesh, they just chew on it and flames don't actually destroy flesh, they just torment it; either way: it takes place. The rich man in hell was able to speak to Abraham, so I imagine one or the other is taking place right now.They perish, for eternity, in agony of flames.Are you?

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

That refers to a time shortly after Christ returns and is not referring to hell.

So forget about using this verse.

Also forget about using the rich man and Lazarus because the account shows the first resurrection has past, but not the second of the last judgment.

LA

Word based mystic
April 26th, 2015, 03:46 AM
Are you a Seventh Day Adventist?

Whether you are or not, what is the problem for believing the fire will not be quenched, per God's word: ' . . . . . "if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched" Mark 9:43 (KJV)? Doesn't that agree with the account of the rich man and Lazarus?
And this account of things as they will be, as well per Rev 14:11 KJV.

oh. nope not a sda

i see the fire is never quenched
nowhere do i see the soul is imperishable
or indestructible.

just the opposite.

i will go through isaiah 33 in reference to the fire
and who can stand in the fire and not be consumed and who can't

i would like to also discuss the eternal aspect of the fire that reflects God substance in isaiah 33 and other places that shows God consuming his enemies with fire out of His mouth.

the only thing specifically stated that has no end in scripture is Gods kingdom and those in His Kingdom.

all other powers and things shall pass away.
cease to be forever or perish by fire.

Word based mystic
April 26th, 2015, 05:46 AM
What little we know of hell shows me that it is either this or worms don't actually eat flesh, they just chew on it and flames don't actually destroy flesh, they just torment it; either way: it takes place. The rich man in hell was able to speak to Abraham, so I imagine one or the other is taking place right now.They perish, for eternity, in agony of flames.Are you?

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

yup they do perish (appollumi) to utterly destroy
or like matthew 10:28 says.

you ((add)) that they will be in agony of flames never ending
eternity is to the end of the age not never ending yup they will be in agony for as long as the flame is designed to bring the 2nd death and destroy or perish. so many words to ignore or redefine.

you add never ending

ever = till the end of the age period of time also can be defined as within the messianic age relating to the present earth.

you assign the wicked soul as having regenerative life
or you assign the wicked soul as being constantly resurrected for another round of torture.
or maybe you assign the soul with powers of reincarnation

either way it is a character of and definition of eternal life..

you add suppositions and speculations to affirm your ect
and change meanings of words quite often to mean exactly the opposite

death now means life
destruction means regeneration
forever now means never ending (not till the end of the age)

try that out with lucifers destruction in ezekiel 28:18
(cease to be forever)

or explain away matt 10:28 body and soul to be destroyed by God

As if God is not capable of destroying body and soul. referring to kill.
now you give it the exact opposite meaning implying GOD empowers the soul to regenerate after each destruction and doesn't actually do what it plainly says kill, destroy body and soul after the judgement.

eternal life life that is permanent and indestructible
eternal destruction, perish destroy, 2nd death = wicked are destroyed permanently no chance of life again = death.

Cross Reference
April 26th, 2015, 05:50 AM
Does that mean you are a Muslim or not?
Regular Christians also believe that the wages of sin is death, so why do you assume someone is SDA if they believe that the wages of sin is death?

If sharing a belief with Seventh Day Adventists makes a person a SDA, then sharing a belief with Muslims must make you a Muslim. Otherwise why you ask WBM if he is SDA?

Your question is not valid. You are attempting to "poison the well". I might as well say "Adolf Hitler believed in eternal conscious torment in hell (which is actually true) so ECT is false."

. . . . . and your questions asked of me are stupid as in, without knowledge.

Cross Reference
April 26th, 2015, 06:32 AM
[QUOTE]oh. nope not a sda

i see the fire is never quenched
nowhere do i see the soul is imperishable
or indestructible.


In the image of God we were created. God has a soul. It cannot die.
God breathed in the nostrils of man and man became a living soul __ after the image of God. Therefore when speaking of eternal things, the words destroy, destruction, everlasting, consuming, dying, darkness, etc., take on a whole different meaning. Why? Because the soul is eternal, God is life and separation from Him is death.. His holiness permits only the substance of Himself to enter into it. Ergo, those outside it have not life. For now, the opportunity remains for man to repent and become of God's substance. There is a time frame however, for when that time is exhausted, all outside Him will be cast into surroundings where God can't ever be found again, where life as He purposed for the soul of man, will never be because, His Life cannot exist in darkness that man might be able to appeal his damnation.
,
So to sum up for understanding: One day righteous man will enter into the Paradise of God which beggars the question, "Where do the unrighteous go?" Simple answer: "Where God can't ever be found".
If God is ultimate Love the opposite of that can only be, Ultimate hate [gnashing of teeth]. If God is ultimate Light, the opposite of that would be ultimate darkness; Ultimate Joy, never ending despair-depression; ultimate loving relationships with folk, never ending aloneness/caged solitude; Ultimate song, never ending screaming. I hope you get my drift.

They are just some of the absolutes God cannot change because they are contrasts He cannot change. God is unchanging and therefore to say God punishes is a misnomer. Man's destination is a result of his choices when alive in his body within the dispensation of time allowed him.



just the opposite.

i will go through isaiah 33 in reference to the fire
and who can stand in the fire and not be consumed and who can't

i would like to also discuss the eternal aspect of the fire that reflects God substance in isaiah 33 and other places that shows God consuming his enemies with fire out of His mouth.

the only thing specifically stated that has no end in scripture is Gods kingdom and those in His Kingdom.

all other powers and things shall pass away.
cease to be forever or perish by fire.

Your obstinacy is showing.

Timotheos
April 26th, 2015, 12:00 PM
In the image of God we were created. God has a soul. It cannot die.

According to the Bible, a soul CAN die.

Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die. Ezekiel 18:4 ESV

Not only CAN a soul die, but the Bible specifically states that "the soul who sins SHALL die."

Jesus also said that a soul can be destroyed.
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28 ESV

Timotheos
April 26th, 2015, 12:08 PM
. . . . . and your questions asked of me are stupid as in, without knowledge.

It was stupid of me to ask if you were a Muslim just because you believe in eternal conscious torment just like they do, just as stupid as it was when you did it. I only asked if you were a Muslim to illustrate my point. Truth is not determined by WHO also believes it. I was stupid of you to ask if WBM is an SDA. Stupid as in, without knowledge.

I'm glad we cleared that up, and now you won't be using the guilt by association fallacy any longer, will you. Good. You may leave my office.

Cross Reference
April 26th, 2015, 12:17 PM
It was stupid of me to ask if you were a Muslim . . . .

Thank you. It is always good to read an apology from one who has made a mistake.

way 2 go
April 26th, 2015, 12:43 PM
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

That refers to a time shortly after Christ returns and is not referring to hell.

So forget about using this verse.
:nono:
don't forget about Rev 14:10

Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Rev 20:12
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


Also forget about using the rich man and Lazarus because the account shows the first resurrection has past, but not the second of the last judgment.

LA
don't forget about Lazarus and the rich man as it teaches truth:

the spirit of the rich man is not burned up in the fire
the rich man is able to carry on a conversation while in the fire
the rich man is in torment / Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment

Luk 16:24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.'

:idea:
If you want to forget about verses
how about the ones that refer to perishing from the earth as
that is not what we are writing about.

Timotheos
April 26th, 2015, 03:36 PM
Thank you. It is always good to read an apology from one who has made a mistake.

No problem. I admit that asking you if you are a Muslim is just as stupid as you asking if another poster is an SDA.

BTW, are you Mormon? Mormons believe in Eternal Conscious Torture in Hell, the same as you. If you aren't a Muslim, perhaps you are a Mormon. Am I correct in this assumption?

Timotheos
April 26th, 2015, 03:59 PM
Again I ask, are you an SDA?

Adolf Hitler believed in eternal conscious torment in Hell.
Are you Adolf Hitler?

Cross Reference
April 26th, 2015, 04:49 PM
No problem. I admit that asking you if you are a Muslim is just as stupid as you asking if another poster is an SDA.

You only show your ignorance by not knowing what a Seventh Day Adventist believes, soul sleep being one of them. Total physical destruction of the wicked being but another. So to say one is a SDA is not slanderous. Hope you learned something by this.

Timotheos
April 27th, 2015, 05:29 AM
You only show your ignorance by not knowing what a Seventh Day Adventist believes, soul sleep being one of them. Total physical destruction of the wicked being but another. So to say one is a SDA is not slanderous. Hope you learned something by this.

I know that SDAs believe in the total destruction of the wicked.
So do other Christians.

Mormons, Muslims and Adolf Hitler believe in eternal conscious torment. If it is not slanderous to call someone a SDA when they are not, then you should have no problem if someone says that you have Mormon-Muslim beliefs that match Hitler's belief.

I'm afraid that you have learned nothing from this exchange. I was pointing out your logical fallacy of "Guilt by Association", but I guess you are unable to see what you did.
Perhaps some weak minded people are convinced by your fallacy, but I'm confident that anyone with intelligence can easily see through your rhetoric.

Cross Reference
April 27th, 2015, 06:57 AM
I know that SDAs believe in the total destruction of the wicked.
So do other Christians.

Mormons, Muslims and Adolf Hitler believe in eternal conscious torment. If it is not slanderous to call someone a SDA when they are not, then you should have no problem if someone says that you have Mormon-Muslims beliefs that match Hitler's belief.

I'm afraid that you have learned nothing from this exchange. I was pointing out your logical fallacy of "Guilt by Association", but I guess you are unable to see what you did.
Perhaps some weak minded people are convinced by your fallacy, but I'm confident that anyone with intelligence can easily see through your rhetoric.

You gotta problem, Bunk. We won't be able to do business with each other. Sorry.

Timotheos
April 27th, 2015, 11:19 AM
You gotta problem, Bunk. We won't be able to do business with each other. Sorry.

That's all right. Maybe next time, you won't commit the same fallacy, if for no other reason than you know that I will jump on you for doing it.

Carry on!

Cross Reference
April 27th, 2015, 11:47 AM
:rolleyes:

Timotheos
April 27th, 2015, 05:09 PM
:rolleyes:

Are you a follower of Sun Myung Moon?

Word based mystic
April 27th, 2015, 06:27 PM
No SDA here.

i our fellowships have relational ties with bill johnson and ywam.
and i really appreciate dan mohler, and john paul jackson whom has passed.

Timotheos
April 28th, 2015, 04:12 AM
You only show your ignorance by not knowing what a Seventh Day Adventist believes, soul sleep being one of them. Total physical destruction of the wicked being but another. So to say one is a SDA is not slanderous. Hope you learned something by this.

Since the Bible specifically states in no uncertain terms that the wicked will be destroyed, Anyone who believes that the wicked will be destroyed believes what the Bible says. A person does not have to be an Adventist to believe the Bible.

"But transgressors shall be altogether destroyed; the future of the wicked shall be cut off."

It is undeniable. I don't know why Mormons, Muslims, Adolf Hitler, and some Christians believe that the wicked will not be destroyed. Tradition, I suppose.

chrysostom
April 28th, 2015, 04:25 AM
I don't know why Mormons, Muslims, Adolf Hitler, and some Christians believe that the wicked will not be destroyed. Tradition, I suppose.

some people just want others to suffer

it's the christian way

Timotheos
April 28th, 2015, 04:42 AM
some people just want others to suffer

it's the christian way

What can we do to convince our fellow "christians" that it is wrong to want others to suffer? They claim that they don't want anyone to suffer, they claim that the Bible says that the unrepentant will go to hell when they die where they will suffer eternal conscious torment forever and ever. But when I ask "Where does the Bible say that the unrepentant will go to hell where they will be tormented alive forever while they are dead", they always either give a verse that doesn't say this, or they claim that they have already given me a verse that says this, even though they haven't. When I point out that the Bible says that the unrepentant will be destroyed, they ignore that. After a while, they start insulting me for believing the Bible instead of their tradition. I suppose they think that insulting me will convince me that they are right. That's just muddy thinking.

Timotheos
April 28th, 2015, 04:44 AM
You gotta problem, Bunk. We won't be able to do business with each other. Sorry.

I guess my only question is, "Why don't you just believe what the Bible says?"

Cross Reference
April 28th, 2015, 05:47 AM
I guess my only question is, "Why don't you just believe what the Bible says?"

To make it say what you would it have it say? No thanks.

It would be more spiritually profitable to pound sand.

Word based mystic
April 28th, 2015, 06:16 AM
isaiah 33 is another example and description of what will happen in the end of the age. and the new age to come.

vs 10-12 My breath will consume you like a fire.
12 “The peoples will be burned to lime,
Like cut thorns which are burned in the fire.

clearly another simile of the lords breath consuming and destroying the wicked as by fire....

the whole chapter is a synonym and a simile of the judgement day and the new age afterwards.

now look at vs 14 “Who among us can live with the consuming fire?
Who among us can live with [k]continual burning?”
15 He who walks righteously and speaks with sincerity,
He who rejects [l]unjust gain
And shakes his hands so that they hold no bribe;
He who stops his ears from hearing about bloodshed
And shuts his eyes from looking upon evil;
16 He will dwell on the heights,
His refuge will be the [m]impregnable rock;
His bread will be given him,
His water will be sure.

being that God is an all consuming fire and is described as often destroying the wicked with the breath of his mouth as if by fire.
What is the all consuming fire destroying.

NOT the righteous. It specifically shows the righteous can live in consuming fire
and can live with continual burning.

the implied question shows that only the righteous can live or survive the FIRE that is meant to destroy the wicked, which are described in vs 11 as chaff and stubble. the earthly, sensual perishable soul will be consumed.

matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Word based mystic
April 28th, 2015, 06:52 AM
hebrews 10:27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.

2 peter 3:8
not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

jeremiah 21:12 That My wrath may not go forth like fire And burn with none to extinguish it, Because of the evil of their deeds.

none to extinguish the fire. does not mean the fire cannot destroy or that which is put in the fire are eternal or imperishable or indestructible
rather the opposite they will perish by fire and be destroyed by fire.

pretty simple.

as to rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and [a]brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

read it close who will be tormented day and night forever (till the end of the age)

rev 14:11 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and [a]brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (till the end of the age)

does not go into the next new heaven and earth where righteousness dwells.

all those things shall pass away.
no more wickedness shall exist anywhere.
the fire did its job
that which was destructible and perishable ceased to exist
ezekiel 28:18 Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you; It has consumed you, And I have turned you to ashes on the earth In the eyes of all who see you. 19"All who know you among the peoples Are appalled at you; You have become terrified And you will (((cease to be forever)))."'"

rev 22:5 And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever

no more night

isaiah 60:19 The sun will no more be your light by day, nor will the brightness of the moon shine on you, for the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your God will be your glory

day and night as we know will be changed in totality.

rev 11:4 they have no rest (day and night), those who worship the beast and his image,

another affirmation that death, hell and the grave shall be consumed, swallowed up in victory
and death shall be no more
this is the 2nd and permanent death.

so yes while they are being destroyed by fire they shall suffer.
is it never ending NO. forever = till the end of the age.

Desert Reign
April 28th, 2015, 07:52 AM
I am ok with the idea that those who deserve it will be punished for ever and ever.
However, I don't believe that is what scripture says. I know that God is just and if eternal punishment is just in some circumstances then I am for it, if not then of course I'm not. For me, it is not a great big issue.

However, what I am not ok with is the idea that God punishes for ever and ever those who he knew when he made them that they would not be given the chance to choose life. That's the Calvinist angle on the question. So we need to get the context right here when we answer the question. In an open world where people are responsible for what they do, punishment depends on the offence committed and it's not something you can generalise about as to whether unending torment is automatically just. It simply depends on the circumstances and I trust God over this. As I said, I am not convinced the Bible says that all those who are not in Christ will suffer this punishment and since it is the Bible I primarily revert to in matters of faith, then such a doctrine is just unsupported and looks more like a prodding fork to control people with for those who want (religious) authority but haven't got real authority within themselves.

Cross Reference
April 28th, 2015, 08:08 AM
being that God is an all consuming fire and is described as often destroying the wicked with the breath of his mouth as if by fire.
What is the all consuming fire destroying.

Simple: One's relationship with God will, of itself, consume anything and everything that would hinder that relationship which is purposed to refine such an individual as gold when it is heated and the dross removed.

"Take away the dross from the silver, and there shall come forth a vessel for the finer." Proverbs 25:4 (KJV)

"Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye are all become dross, behold, therefore I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem." Ezekiel 22:19 (KJV)

To do what? to destroy them of to refine them that they be a people unto Him?

And then, we have this:

"The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times." Psalm 12:6 (KJV)

Cross Reference
April 28th, 2015, 08:10 AM
so yes while they are being destroyed by fire they shall suffer.
is it never ending NO. forever = till the end of the age.

Forever = Forever!! ___ It's elementary.

Word based mystic
April 28th, 2015, 08:16 AM
Simple: One's relationship with God will, of itself, consume anything and everything that would hinder that relationship which is purposed to refine such an individual as gold when it is heated and the dross removed.

"Take away the dross from the silver, and there shall come forth a vessel for the finer." Proverbs 25:4 (KJV)

"Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye are all become dross, behold, therefore I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem." Ezekiel 22:19 (KJV)

To do what? to destroy them of to refine them that they be a people unto Him?

And then, we have this:

"The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times." Psalm 12:6 (KJV)

you are describing the righteous..
which as being purified will be able to contain more of the fullness of God.

the wicked are destroyed.
are you more of a universalist. Some of your thoughts might be taken as that, with the answer just given.

And if so then the wicked are burned and purified for future salvation.

I can see some scripture that could imply that thought process.
but not enough fullness to eliminate the perish, destruction and 2nd death scriptures.

we are talking about the eternal fire that destroys the wicked. or slays them
not about the righteous who go through trials as if by fire for purification.

Word based mystic
April 28th, 2015, 08:20 AM
the wicked not being indestructible or having eternal life consist of perishable substance only.

otherwise they would be indestructible and regenerate and thus would have eternal life. just in a different place.

Word based mystic
April 28th, 2015, 08:25 AM
do you now ignore the greek meaning of (forever)?? (aion)
till the end of the age.

not never ending.

the only thing or kingdom that scripture says is never ending is the kingdom of God. luke 1:33

all other things shall perish and pass away.

including the wicked.

Cross Reference
April 28th, 2015, 08:26 AM
you are describing the righteous..
which as being purified will be able to contain more of the fullness of God.

the wicked are destroyed.
are you more of a universalist. Some of your thoughts might be taken as that, with the answer just given.

And if so then the wicked are burned and purified for future salvation.

I can see some scripture that could imply that thought process.
but not enough fullness to eliminate the perish, destruction and 2nd death scriptures.

we are talking about the eternal fire that destroys the wicked. or slays them
not about the righteous who go through trials as if by fire for purification.

I am defining God as a consuming fire to the righteous which you are attempting to twist "unquenchable fire" to mean to the damned.

Cross Reference
April 28th, 2015, 08:31 AM
do you now ignore the greek meaning of (forever)?? (aion)
till the end of the age.

not never ending.

the only thing or kingdom that scripture says is never ending is the kingdom of God. luke 1:33

all other things shall perish and pass away.

including the wicked.

Greek, schmeek. Read whatever copy that best supports any spiritual bent. One will always be there, somewhere.

Define: "unquenchable"

Word based mystic
April 28th, 2015, 08:40 AM
Greek, schmeek. Read whatever copy that best supports any spiritual bent. One will always be there, somewhere.

Define: "unquenchable"

once again the fire, may be unquenchable but that does not make the souls indestructible or imperishable.

the fire is of the substance of God being eternal.

the wicked do not have (eternal) life but are destroyed.

God is an all consuming fire. So are you implying He is carnal and destructible so His own fire can consume himself constantly.

This is a Spiritual truth.
if the eternal flame was only material in nature it would end after the old heaven and earth were burned up and destroyed.
it would have ceased due to the hay and stubble being consumed.

no more fuel.

your implied question is making it a natural flame.
not a supernatural impartation of Gods eternal substance.

Gods eternal flame is not reliant on earthly substance to (continue)

wicked are consumed and cease to be forever ezekiel 28

Word based mystic
April 28th, 2015, 08:46 AM
Gods love is unquenchable.. many waters cannot quench it. ((simile of fire.))

For the LORD is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations.

the substance of God never ends
and being in Christs Kingdom allows us to continue
For He is the life John 14:6 "I am the way, and the truth, and the life;

Cross Reference
April 28th, 2015, 09:07 AM
Gods love is unquenchable.. many waters cannot quench it. ((simile of fire.))

For the LORD is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations.

the substance of God never ends
and being in Christs Kingdom allows us to continue
For He is the life John 14:6 "I am the way, and the truth, and the life;

Whatever. We're done.

Word based mystic
April 28th, 2015, 09:07 AM
The reason why i am so (OBSTINATE) in this matter is because.

The view that God is a never ending torturer with no end in sight for his created children is opposite to His fatherly love.

psalms 145:17 The LORD is righteous in all His ways And kind in all His deeds
even in his judgement and punishment there is kindness and an end to torment, the end of such misery is kindness in itself.

If you have a rabid dog you kill, destroy, cause it to perish.
you do not allow it to live eternally so it can influence or spread it's disease.

punishment is a fathers job and is quite different than never ending torture
torture with no end is in no way a character of Gods never ending father love.

Timotheos
April 28th, 2015, 10:46 AM
The reason why i am so (OBSTINATE) in this matter is because.

The view that God is a never ending torturer with no end in sight for his created children is opposite to His fatherly love.

psalms 145:17 The LORD is righteous in all His ways And kind in all His deeds
even in his judgement and punishment there is kindness and an end to torment, the end of such misery is kindness in itself.

If you have a rabid dog you kill, destroy, cause it to perish.
you do not allow it to live eternally so it can influence or spread it's disease.

punishment is a fathers job and is quite different than never ending torture
torture with no end is in no way a character of Gods never ending father love.

I agree, and since the Bible SPECIFICALLY says that the wicked will be destroyed and NEVER ONCE says that the wicked will have eternal consciousness in hell being tormented or tortured alive for all eternity, I have to believe that the wicked will be destroyed and they will not inherit eternal life for the sole purpose of pointless torture.

everready
April 28th, 2015, 11:11 AM
The reason why i am so (OBSTINATE) in this matter is because.

The view that God is a never ending torturer with no end in sight for his created children is opposite to His fatherly love.

psalms 145:17 The LORD is righteous in all His ways And kind in all His deeds
even in his judgement and punishment there is kindness and an end to torment, the end of such misery is kindness in itself.

If you have a rabid dog you kill, destroy, cause it to perish.
you do not allow it to live eternally so it can influence or spread it's disease.

punishment is a fathers job and is quite different than never ending torture
torture with no end is in no way a character of Gods never ending father love.

You make it sound like God created hell for mankind.


everready

nikolai_42
April 28th, 2015, 11:19 AM
The reason why i am so (OBSTINATE) in this matter is because.

The view that God is a never ending torturer with no end in sight for his created children is opposite to His fatherly love.

psalms 145:17 The LORD is righteous in all His ways And kind in all His deeds
even in his judgement and punishment there is kindness and an end to torment, the end of such misery is kindness in itself.

If you have a rabid dog you kill, destroy, cause it to perish.
you do not allow it to live eternally so it can influence or spread it's disease.

punishment is a fathers job and is quite different than never ending torture
torture with no end is in no way a character of Gods never ending father love.

Punishment is justice...but what debt do we owe God that we are capable of paying?

Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
Matthew 5:23-26

Isn't this what is being referenced in Matthew 18:21-35? The ending to that passage is rather ominous...

And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
Matthew 18:34-35

Word based mystic
April 28th, 2015, 11:33 AM
Punishment is justice...but what debt do we owe God that we are capable of paying?

Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
Matthew 5:23-26

Isn't this what is being referenced in Matthew 18:21-35? The ending to that passage is rather ominous...

And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
Matthew 18:34-35

yes exactly

i use those scriptures to relate that God is both just and that His punishment has an end. to the very end, to the utmost of the infraction.

and the end of the most serious punishment is death/destruction/to perish/kill
matthew 10:28
how much more serious could that be.

we are either purified as the righteous by fire for eternal life
or we are destroyed by fire and perish.

who shall be able to live in the consuming fire? the righteous.

I have not found any convincing argument that the wicked soul is indestructible, imperishable or does not suffer the 2nd (death).

wages of sin is death.

psalm 92:7 That when the wicked sprouted up like grass And all who did iniquity flourished, It was only that they might be destroyed ((forevermore)).

Word based mystic
April 28th, 2015, 11:43 AM
You make it sound like God created hell for mankind.


everready

you are not keeping up with the discussion.

that point is well affirmed in scripture and our discussions.

Hell was made for the devil and his angels

but

matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell
affirms that men will be cast into hell and the eternal fire will utterly destroy death, hell and the grave.
death will be no more

psalm 92:7 That when the wicked sprouted up like grass And all who did iniquity flourished, It was only that they might be destroyed (((forevermore))).

everready
April 28th, 2015, 11:44 AM
yes exactly

i use those scriptures to relate that God is both just and that His punishment has an end. to the very end, to the utmost of the infraction.

and the end of the most serious punishment is death/destruction/to perish/kill
matthew 10:28
how much more serious could that be.

we are either purified as the righteous by fire for eternal life
or we are destroyed by fire and perish.

who shall be able to live in the consuming fire? the righteous.

I have not found any convincing argument that the wicked soul is indestructible, imperishable or does not suffer the 2nd (death).

wages of sin is death.


Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


everready

Word based mystic
April 28th, 2015, 11:47 AM
Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


everready

like i said you are not keeping up with the discussion.


what is the wages of sin?

what is the punishment and how long will it end to.

the punishment is death and while the wicked are being destroyed the smoke of their destruction shall be seen or heard till forever.

forever= aion to the end of the age, period, messianic age, related to the earth.

a new heaven and new earth where righteousness dwells is what is coming and former things and death itself as well as the wicked perish and are no more.

everready
April 28th, 2015, 11:53 AM
like i said you are not keeping up with the discussion.


what is the wages of sin?

what is the punishment and how long will it end to

forever= aion to the end of the age, period, messianic age, related to the earth.

a new heaven and new earth where righteousness dwells is what is coming and former things and death itself as well as the wicked perish and are no more.

You mean keeping up with your beliefs, everlasting is everlasting eternal is eternal.

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:


everready

nikolai_42
April 28th, 2015, 11:57 AM
yes exactly

i use those scriptures to relate that God is both just and that His punishment has an end. to the very end, to the utmost of the infraction.

and the end of the most serious punishment is death/destruction/to perish/kill
matthew 10:28
how much more serious could that be.

we are either purified as the righteous by fire for eternal life
or we are destroyed by fire and perish.

who shall be able to live in the consuming fire? the righteous.

I have not found any convincing argument that the wicked soul is indestructible, imperishable or does not suffer the 2nd (death).

wages of sin is death.

psalm 92:7 That when the wicked sprouted up like grass And all who did iniquity flourished, It was only that they might be destroyed ((forevermore)).

The question in my mind is how can any man ever pay back God for all his sins? And since Jesus doesn't speak in terms of termination of existence, the thought of retribution is rather a frightening one because we know what we deserve. I understand the argument that death is just nothingness, but there is tension in scripture (if you just go on the English KJV words, anyway) that accepts as a given that these wrongs must be repaid...in full. And if not in Christ, then the individual has to answer for each one. If one sin is deserving of death, then proper justice requires multiple deaths for multiple sins. Even if there is an eventual end, the prospect of justice at God's hands is at once unanswerable and terrifying :

Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
2 Corinthians 5:9-11

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Revelation 14:9-11

This, to me, sounds nothing like mere end of existence.

Word based mystic
April 28th, 2015, 11:57 AM
Obadiah 1:16 It will be as if the evil “had never been.“

Isa. 1:28, 30–31 “rebels and sinners shall be destroyed together, and those who forsake the Lord shall be consumed.”

Mal 4:1 “All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the LORD Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them.”

John 3:16 “…whosoever believeth in him should not perish”

Philippians 3:19 “whose end is destruction…“

2 Thessalonians 1:9 “who shall be punished with everlasting destruction
permanent state destroyed.

not eternal life in hell.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire

what happens then.
isaiah 25:8 He will swallow up death for all time,

1 Cor 3:17: “God will destroy that person

2 Peter 2:3: “Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.”

thus the soul does not live eternally in hell.

Word based mystic
April 28th, 2015, 12:01 PM
The question in my mind is how can any man ever pay back God for all his sins? And since Jesus doesn't speak in terms of termination of existence, the thought of retribution is rather a frightening one because we know what we deserve. I understand the argument that death is just nothingness, but there is tension in scripture (if you just go on the English KJV words, anyway) that accepts as a given that these wrongs must be repaid...in full. And if not in Christ, then the individual has to answer for each one. If one sin is deserving of death, then proper justice requires multiple deaths for multiple sins. Even if there is an eventual end, the prospect of justice at God's hands is at once unanswerable and terrifying :

Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
2 Corinthians 5:9-11

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Revelation 14:9-11

This, to me, sounds nothing like mere end of existence.

so the wages of sin is (not) death???
and for those whose sin is greater they do not last longer in the fire of torment

rather those that sinned greater get the same degree of torment than those that sinned lesser??

i could show you so many more scriptures that show their is no life eternal for the wicked and
that their end is to be destroyed, perish, kill, consume, death.

forever = aion till the end of the age, period of time, messianic age
NOT never ending

only GODS kingdom and those in Christ have no end or are described as never ending.

everready
April 28th, 2015, 12:03 PM
Obadiah 1:16 It will be as if the evil “had never been.“

Isa. 1:28, 30–31 “rebels and sinners shall be destroyed together, and those who forsake the Lord shall be consumed.”

Mal 4:1 “All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the LORD Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them.”

John 3:16 “…whosoever believeth in him should not perish”

Philippians 3:19 “whose end is destruction…“

2 Thessalonians 1:9 “who shall be punished with everlasting destruction
permanent state destroyed.

not eternal life in hell.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire

what happens then.
isaiah 25:8 He will swallow up death for all time,

1 Cor 3:17: “God will destroy that person

2 Peter 2:3: “Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.”

thus the soul does not live eternally in hell.

You forgot one.

Mark 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.


everready

Cross Reference
April 28th, 2015, 12:09 PM
You forgot one.

Mark 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.


everready


He didn't forget it. He ignores it.

nikolai_42
April 28th, 2015, 12:10 PM
so the wages of sin is (not) death???

This is the problem with founding a position on a single word or verse. It doesn't necessarily convey the breadth intended. For example, when we were dead in trespasses and sin, were we actually dead in the sense you are reading here? Are the "filthy dreamers" of Jude 1:12 "twice dead" and therefore not in existence?


and for those whose sin is greater they do not last longer in the fire of torment

rather those that sinned greater get the same degree of torment than those that sinned lesser??

I know what Jesus says about fewer stripes. And I know you probably think that it is impossible to have degrees of punishment if all are in the same fire. The fire spoken of is far more than just fire as we understand it - this is just an analogy for our understanding (seeing through a glass darkly and all that). I have no problem believing that the punishments God metes out are utterly just.

But if someone is actually dead, how does that work in terms of varying punishments? Are some just mostly dead?


i could show you so many more scriptures that show their is no life eternal for the wicked and
that their end is to be destroyed, perish, kill, consume, death.

Eternal life is a quality as well as a duration. Life more abundantly...

Word based mystic
April 28th, 2015, 12:12 PM
yup already addressed that many times

the fire and the worm are eternal

they consume

it does not make that which they destroy immortal or eternal or imperishable or indestructible or give them eternal life in hell

perish = appollumi (to utterly destroy)

matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

we already discussed that and your assumption and supposition that because the fire is eternal therefore the wicked are eternal (fails)

you assign an attribute of eternal to the wicked because that which destroys it is eternal. bad assumption.

Word based mystic
April 28th, 2015, 12:20 PM
This is the problem with founding a position on a single word or verse. It doesn't necessarily convey the breadth intended. For example, when we were dead in trespasses and sin, were we actually dead in the sense you are reading here? Are the "filthy dreamers" of Jude 1:12 "twice dead" and therefore not in existence?



I know what Jesus says about fewer stripes. And I know you probably think that it is impossible to have degrees of punishment if all are in the same fire. The fire spoken of is far more than just fire as we understand it - this is just an analogy for our understanding (seeing through a glass darkly and all that). I have no problem believing that the punishments God metes out are utterly just.

But if someone is actually dead, how does that work in terms of varying punishments? Are some just mostly dead?



Eternal life is a quality as well as a duration. Life more abundantly...

i accepted and discussed that punishment has different degrees
and it actually proves that some that sinned greater shall suffer longer before (perish) [appollumi] to be utterly destroyed.

otherwise they would all be getting the same punishment never ending.

unquenchable fire does not define that which it (destroys)

the idea of the wicked soul as being immortal, indestructible, imperishable soul is hinging on the word forever.
which means till the end of the age, messianic age, period of time.

some will hinge it on unquenchable.

but God is a consuming fire
the eternal substance of the fire shows it is birthed out of and may imply it Is Gods consuming fire that does the destruction.

the fire is eternal

wicked are hay and stubble burned up by the (consuming) fire.

assigning attributes that are not evident in scripture is speculative.

Word based mystic
April 28th, 2015, 12:26 PM
He didn't forget it. He ignores it.

addressed it quite well thank you.

the assumption on ect's part is problematic

matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

we already discussed that and ECT's assumption and supposition that because the fire is eternal therefore the wicked are eternal (fails)

ECT assigns an attribute of eternal to the wicked because that which destroys it is eternal. bad assumption.

The_Prodigal
April 28th, 2015, 12:40 PM
Mr. Knechtle is too "fire and brimstone" for me. He is also trying to explain the nuances of God's punishment and reward system--something that we will of course NEVER understand--like a lawyer would on the criminal justice system. Thus, he is woefully limited.

I doubt highly that God places more value on a Senator, or even the Pope, then he does on you who are reading this. Or anyone. Jesus spoke of this many times in many ways. In fact, the source of His constant squabbling withe the Sanhedrin and the Pharisees was along these lines. Jesus told us not to worry about what we wear or what we eat since the flowers in the field--which are valued far less by God then we are--are taken care of. And when he said that He was talking about ALL who listened to Him. He also continually admonished the Pharisees for putting on airs. And misusing their authority.

So much for God favoring the powers that be.

I personally do not believe in a literal Hell. I think it is the total absence of God's Grace after we die. A void. Where you have all the time in the world to sit in silence and replay over and over and over all the harm you did during your life. And you also are faced with knowing what that harm did to others. Over and over like a video loop. But yeah..I think it IS eternal.

Word based mystic
April 28th, 2015, 12:50 PM
Nikolai

yes the terror of Gods judgement is terrifying.

that does not equate an indestructible soul.

also.
multiple deaths is regeneration, resurrection, or reincarnation and the wicked do not have life let alone eternal life.

unless of course the implication is that God is resurrecting them to torment
them again.

also. twice dead similar to the (2nd death) first the body then the soul like Jesus said in matthew 10:28.

physical death and then 2nd death is permanent soulical death.

unless of course the wicked soul is imperishable or indestructible.
which is the key element of eternal life.

also
quality of life is an issue but there again the key word is (LIFE)

how does a quality of life come into play if one is (dead)?

the idea of the Heavenly (Father) being a never ending torturer to His created children and never end that torture sent me on a 25 year reassessment of this doctrine.

psalm 145:17 The LORD is righteous in all His ways And((kind)) in all His deeds.

surely like scripture says Gods kindness would put an end to the wicked

a rabid dog being put out of it's misery so it can no longer infect those around it is a kindness.

not chaining it up and torturing it never ending... because it is diseased.

wow
come on guys.

Cross Reference
April 28th, 2015, 01:25 PM
addressed it quite well thank you.

the assumption on ect's part is problematic

matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

we already discussed that and ECT's assumption and supposition that because the fire is eternal therefore the wicked are eternal (fails)

ECT assigns an attribute of eternal to the wicked because that which destroys it is eternal. bad assumption.

And you have a mis-construed understanding of the word destroy[ed] brought about by an irreconcilable religious doctrine you have bought into. But, you can't see that sufficiently to stop from ploughing threw anyway to what can only be a ill perceived hope..

Word based mystic
April 28th, 2015, 01:36 PM
And you have a mis-construed understanding of the word destroy[ed] brought about by an irreconcilable religious doctrine you have bought into. But, you can't see that sufficiently to stop from ploughing threw anyway to what can only be a ill perceived hope..

using strongs and youngs as a base for my word descriptions.

perish goes hand in hand with destroy.

matthew 10:28 shows we are still in context with KILL and destroy.

destroy brings something to uselessness

it is also reaffirmed with words like (DEATH).

ECT tries to change those words to mean (life)

indestructible, imperishable, eternal life,
= the righteous

the wicked do not have these attributes.
and are destined to perish.

Word based mystic
April 28th, 2015, 01:43 PM
)
Search Results
Strong's Greek: 622. ἀπόλλυμι (apollumi) -- to destroy ...
biblehub.com/greek/622.htm
Bible Hub
apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly. Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι. Part of Speech: Verb Transliteration: apollumi. Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee) Short Definition:

(utterly)

perish also has the same root word

622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy") – properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely (note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).

622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); "to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction" (L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.

also

KJV Dictionary Definition: perish

perish

PER'ISH, v.i.L. pereo, supposed to be compounded of per and eo, to go; literally, to depart wholly.

1. To die; to lose life in any manner; applied to animals. Men perish by disease or decay, by the sword, by drowning, by hunger or famine, &c.

2. To die; to wither and decay; applied to plants.

3. To waste away; as, a leg or an arm has perished.

4. To be in a state of decay or passing away.

Duration, and time which is part of it, is the idea we have of perishing distance.

5. To be destroyed; to come to nothing.

Perish the lore that deadens young desire.

6. To fail entirely or to be extirpated. 2 Kings.9.

7. To be burst or ruined; as, the bottles shall perish.

Lazy afternoon
April 28th, 2015, 03:30 PM
yup already addressed that many times

the fire and the worm are eternal

they consume

it does not make that which they destroy immortal or eternal or imperishable or indestructible or give them eternal life in hell

perish = appollumi (to utterly destroy)

matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

we already discussed that and your assumption and supposition that because the fire is eternal therefore the wicked are eternal (fails)

you assign an attribute of eternal to the wicked because that which destroys it is eternal. bad assumption.


Quite simple, but hidden from those with too high an opinion of themselves.

LA

Timotheos
April 28th, 2015, 04:52 PM
He didn't forget it. He ignores it.

You realize that verse is talking about corpses and not living dead people in hell, right? It is better proof that the unrepentant will perish just as the Bible says than it is proof that the wicked will never die.

Word based mystic
April 29th, 2015, 04:00 AM
forward

IHaveGodInMe
April 29th, 2015, 04:09 AM
You realize that verse is talking about corpses and not living dead people in hell, right? It is better proof that the unrepentant will perish just as the Bible says than it is proof that the wicked will never die.

God's word is clear. The punishment for sin is eternal torture at the hand of lucifer himself (lower case l and lower case h). Those who don't know God don't know about His ways and what He says. You all must read the Bible and understand like God said so that you can know His punishments.

:peach:

Timotheos
April 29th, 2015, 04:38 AM
God's word is clear. The punishment for sin is eternal torture at the hand of lucifer himself (lower case l and lower case h). Those who don't know God don't know about His ways and what He says. You all must read the Bible and understand like God said so that you can know His punishments.

:peach:

The Bible does not say that the punishment for sin is eternal torture at the hand of lucifer himself. You need to read the Bible, which specifically states that the punishment for sin is death. Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord".
God's Word is clear, it does not say what you claim that it says. Now, before you claim "but thats just one verse" remember that it is God's Word. Also you should know that there are many other verses in the Bible that also specifically state that the wicked will perish and will be no more. And before you attempt to claim that death doesn't really mean death, you should know that I will ask you for proof of any claims that "In the Bible death doesn't mean death".
I hope that covers any objections you have to God's Word. I suggest you read the Bible and believe what it says instead of just blindly accepting the false doctrine of eternal torture in hell.

IHaveGodInMe
April 29th, 2015, 04:40 AM
The Bible does not say that the punishment for sin is eternal torture at the hand of lucifer himself. You need to read the Bible, which specifically states that the punishment for sin is death. Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord".
God's Word is clear, it does not say what you claim that it says. Now, before you claim "but thats just one verse" remember that it is "God's Word". Also you should know that there are many other verses in the Bible that also specifically state that the wicked will perish and will be no more. And before you attempt to claim that death doesn't really mean death, you should know that I will ask you for proof of any claims that "In the Bible death doesn't mean death".
I hope that covers any objections you have to God's Word. I suggest you read the Bible and believe what it says instead of just blindly accepting the false doctrine of eternal torture in hell.

God's Word is simple and does not need explanation! I have shown you the Truth and now you must twist like lucifer himself to escape it!

Timotheos
April 29th, 2015, 04:44 AM
God's Word is simple and does not need explanation! I have shown you the Truth and now you must twist like lucifer himself to escape it!

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but will have eternal life.

Can you show me how you arrived at your belief in eternal torture at the hands of lower case lucifer from that?

IHaveGodInMe
April 29th, 2015, 04:47 AM
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but will have eternal life.

Can you show me how you arrived at your belief in eternal torture at the hands of lower case lucifer from that?

I do not show anything. God shows through His Word. His Word is clear and needs no interpretation by us.

I have shown you the Truth from His Word and even a child could see it with his human eyes given by God!

Punishments for sin include the eternal torture in the hellfires. This is God's Law!

:peach:

Timotheos
April 29th, 2015, 04:52 AM
I do not show anything. God shows through His Word. His Word is clear and needs no interpretation by us.

I have shown you the Truth from His Word and even a child could see it with his human eyes given by God!

Punishments for sin include the eternal torture in the hellfires. This is God's Law!

:peach:

Jesus said that the fire of hell (Gehenna) will destroy those who are sent there. Matthew 10:28. He did not say that they would be eternally tortured there.
According to the Bible, the wages of sin is death. Romans 6:23
According to John 3:16, those who reject Christ will perish.
You haven't shown me why I should not believe what the Bible says.

IHaveGodInMe
April 29th, 2015, 04:55 AM
Jesus said that the fire of hell (Gehenna) will destroy those who are sent there. Matthew 10:28. He did not say that they would be eternally tortured there.
According to the Bible, the wages of sin is death. Romans 6:23
According to John 3:16, those who reject Christ will perish.
You haven't shown me why I should not believe what the Bible says.

See again, you do not listen to the Truth.

I do not show you anything. It the Lord Christ Jesus that will show you the Path.

I have shown you the Truth in my Words. You must not read the Bible or understand the Lord. :peach:

:think: Where has America gone to have people like this.....

Timotheos
April 29th, 2015, 04:59 AM
See again, you do not listen to the Truth.

I do not show you anything. It the Lord Christ Jesus that will show you the Path.

I have shown you the truth in my Words. You must not read the Bible or understand the Lord. :peach:

:think: Where has America gone to have people like this.....

I showed you what the Bible says, I'm sorry if you do not believe it.
You claimed that the Bible says that the punishment for sin is eternal torture at the hands of lower case lucifer. Can you show me the Bible verse that says this.

(Before you get too high on yourself, you should know that I have read the entire Bible, and I have read the entire New Testament in the original Greek.)

IHaveGodInMe
April 29th, 2015, 05:02 AM
I showed you what the Bible says, I'm sorry if you do not believe it.
You claimed that the Bible says that the punishment for sin is eternal torture at the hands of lower case lucifer. Can you show me the Bible verse that says this.

(Before you get too high on yourself, you should know that I have read the entire Bible, and I have read the entire New Testament in the original Greek.)

I have read the entire Bible four times, that is three more times than you. :cow:

You are trying to show me with your Earthly ways of using your senses. You cannot do that. You must look at the Word from God. I am not earthly, I am spirit and THE HOLY SPIRIT will enter you like He entered me and show you His Truth. Throw away senses.

Timotheos
April 29th, 2015, 05:06 AM
I have read the entire Bible four times, that is three more times than you. :cow:

You are trying to show me with your Earthly ways of using your senses. You cannot do that. You must look at the Word from God. I am not earthly, I am spirit and THE HOLY SPIRIT will enter you like He entered me and show you His Truth. Throw away senses.

You are a lot of fun. Tell me what John 3:16 says in your own words. You said that you read it 4 times. Tell me what it says.

(And I'm still waiting for the verse that says "the punishment for sins is eternal torture at the hands of lower case lucifer.")

:sheep:

IHaveGodInMe
April 29th, 2015, 05:09 AM
You are a lot of fun. Tell me what John 3:16 says in your own words. You said that you read it 4 times. Tell me what it says.

(And I'm still waiting for the verse that says "the punishment for sins is eternal torture at the hands of lower case lucifer.")

:sheep:

You still do not understand, I cannot read the Bible in my own words there is only God's Words. I do not use my senses like you do.

Timotheos
April 29th, 2015, 05:09 AM
Throw away senses.

I love your username. I am hearing it in a southern preacher accent, "I have GAWD in ME!"

IHaveGodInMe
April 29th, 2015, 05:10 AM
I love your username. I am hearing it in a southern preacher accent, "I have GAWD in ME!"

And now you mock God himself..... :think:

Timotheos
April 29th, 2015, 05:12 AM
You still do not understand, I cannot read the Bible in my own words there is only God's Words. I do not use my senses like you do.

I know that you do not use your senses. :rotfl:

I am asking you to tell me what John 3:16 says. Quote from your Bible, if you don't want to put the verse in your own words. I just want to check your understanding. As you said "God's Word needs no explanation".

Timotheos
April 29th, 2015, 05:13 AM
And now you mock God himself..... :think:

No, I was mocking you. Sorry about that.

IHaveGodInMe
April 29th, 2015, 05:17 AM
I know that you do not use your senses. :rotfl:

I am asking you to tell me what John 3:16 says. Quote from your Bible, if you don't want to put the verse in your own words. I just want to check your understanding. As you said "God's Word needs no explanation".

I think you don't understand the Word to ask me this. Go to your closet and kneel down, son. Wait and pray until the Lord enters you and lose all senses. This is how you find His Word. Liberals want you to try and use logic to find 'loopholes' in the Bible. But trust me, in Hell there are no loopholes, except maybe nooses that kill you forever. :peach:

Timotheos
April 29th, 2015, 05:33 AM
I think you don't understand the Word to ask me this. Go to your closet and kneel down, son. Wait and pray until the Lord enters you and lose all senses. This is how you find His Word. Liberals want you to try and use logic to find 'loopholes' in the Bible. But trust me, in Hell there are no loopholes, except maybe nooses that kill you forever. :peach:

I'm just wondering why you don't believe what John 3:16, Romans 6:23, Matthew 10:28 and Psalm 37:20 clearly state.

IHaveGodInMe
April 29th, 2015, 05:36 AM
I'm just wondering why you don't believe what John 3:16, Romans 6:23, Matthew 10:28 and Psalm 37:20 clearly state.

I read the Word every day. I do believe in God's Word. :peach:

Timotheos
April 29th, 2015, 05:44 AM
I read the Word every day. I do believe in God's Word. :peach:

Then tell me what John 3:16, Romans 6:23, Matthew 10:28 and Psalm 37:20 clearly state.

IHaveGodInMe
April 29th, 2015, 05:46 AM
Then tell me what John 3:16, Romans 6:23, Matthew 10:28 and Psalm 37:20 clearly state.

You are trying to use man's eyes and ears to find loopholes! Stop! You will be doomed to the eternal death.

Word based mystic
April 29th, 2015, 01:45 PM
You are trying to use man's eyes and ears to find loopholes! Stop! You will be doomed to the eternal death.

loopholes??? for the plain statements of scripture

what are you talking about.

loopholes is ignoring the wages of sin
or the wicked will perish = utterly destroy.

Timotheos
April 29th, 2015, 02:17 PM
You are trying to use man's eyes and ears to find loopholes! Stop! You will be doomed to the eternal death.

Sorry Dear, I had to go to work. I shant be doomed to the eternal death because Christ is my Savior. All my hope and faith is in Him (God's only Son) for eternal life. It is interesting that you say "eternal death", when that is MY belief. You claimed that the punishment for sins is eternal living torture at the hands of lower case lucifer.

I wonder why lower case lucy is preventing you from quoting John 3:16?
The Gospel of Jesus Christ is hardly a "loophole". It is good news that we do not have to pay the penalty for sin that we owe which is death, because Jesus Christ's death on the cross pays that debt of death for us. Isn't that wonderful?

Word based mystic
April 29th, 2015, 02:45 PM
Sorry Dear, I had to go to work. I shant be doomed to the eternal death because Christ is my Savior. All my hope and faith is in Him (God's only Son) for eternal life. It is interesting that you say "eternal death", when that is MY belief. You claimed that the punishment for sins is eternal living torture at the hands of lower case lucifer.

I wonder why lower case lucy is preventing you from quoting John 3:16?
The Gospel of Jesus Christ is hardly a "loophole". It is good news that we do not have to pay the penalty for sin that we owe which is death, because Jesus Christ's death on the cross pays that debt of death for us. Isn't that wonderful?

i came on this site to see relevant and new issues. this is an old one for me 25 years ago i started looking at this in detail instead of looking at what preachers taught.

it did not seem to be consistent with many scriptures, SO.

but this one subject always amazes me as to how many changes of definitions and meanings of words people change to justify ect.

changing death to mean life
changing perish to mean imperishable.
changing destruction to mean indestructible
giving the wicked eternal life, just in a different place.
changing the meaning of forever = aion (period or to the end of the age) to mean never ending.

it is baffling to me how few dig in and see the basics laid out.

by the way Ihavegodinme.
please look at what happens to lucifer.

in ezekiel 28:18 Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you; It has consumed you, And I have turned you to ashes on the earth In the eyes of all who see you. 19"All who know you among the peoples Are appalled at you; You have become terrified And you will ((cease to be forever)).

maybe he won't be torturing people in hell
for a period of time he himself will be tormented in Fire.
probably be too busy i think....

Word based mystic
April 29th, 2015, 03:08 PM
yet in the minutia of other issues they are precise and pointed on every detail or meaning and definition.

and yell and scream if you give liberty on exact meaning of words and themes..

but on this one issue they very much so change the meaning to imply the exact opposite.

Timotheos
April 30th, 2015, 03:32 AM
yet in the minutia of other issues they are precise and pointed on every detail or meaning and definition.

and yell and scream if you give liberty on exact meaning of words and themes..

but on this one issue they very much so change the meaning to imply the exact opposite.

Yes, and then accuse us of twisting scripture because we believe it means what it says. The wages of sin is death, just as the Bible says.
The wicked will perish just as the Bible says, and those in Gehenna will be destroyed just as Jesus said.

Aimiel
April 30th, 2015, 04:06 AM
Yes death. Yes all who sin must die. Yes, all who die will also be judged. Yes, their flesh will be destroyed by flames and worm will eat their bones, for eternity. This will happen to all whose names were not written in The Lamb's Book of Life. Ignoring that after death comes judgment and eternal conscious torment is not being faithful to The Holy Scriptures. Those whose names are recorded in The Lamb's Book of Life will receive eternal life. Eternal suffering is the only fate found in Scriptures for those who chose death over life.

Timotheos
April 30th, 2015, 04:42 AM
Yes death. Yes all who sin must die. Yes, all who die will also be judged. Yes, their flesh will be destroyed by flames and worm will eat their bones, for eternity. This will happen to all whose names were not written in The Lamb's Book of Life. Ignoring that after death comes judgment and eternal conscious torment is not being faithful to The Holy Scriptures. Those whose names are recorded in The Lamb's Book of Life will receive eternal life. Eternal suffering is the only fate found in Scriptures for those who chose death over life.

Aren't you assuming that death does not mean death if they are conscious? The Bible doesn't say that the result of the judgment is eternal conscious torment. The Holy Scriptures say that the result of the judgment is destruction. This is why God's Word also calls that day "The day of destruction of the ungodly". 2 Peter 3:7

Aimiel
April 30th, 2015, 04:54 AM
I don't assume anything. I assume that smoke of torment ascending for ever and ever means just that. Where there's smoke there's torment.

Word based mystic
April 30th, 2015, 05:06 AM
Yes death. Yes all who sin must die. Yes, all who die will also be judged. Yes, their flesh will be destroyed by flames and worm will eat their bones, for eternity. This will happen to all whose names were not written in The Lamb's Book of Life. Ignoring that after death comes judgment and eternal conscious torment is not being faithful to The Holy Scriptures. Those whose names are recorded in The Lamb's Book of Life will receive eternal life. Eternal suffering is the only fate found in Scriptures for those who chose death over life.

you skipped or ignored a couple things

eternal punishment is the (((((2nd death)))))
Jesus describes it in matthew 10:28 body and soul

first physical death yup your right
then judgement
then the (2nd death)

and the (destruction) hmmm meaning to be destroy (perish)

eternal is same root as aion (forever)

Strong's Concordance
aión: a space of time, an age
Original Word: αἰών, ῶνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: aión
Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-ohn')
Short Definition: an age, a cycle of time
Definition: an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age,

the wicked soul is not indestructible nor is it imperishable nor does it have eternal life of any kind.

thus the 2nd death Which is of the body and soul

ezekiel 28:18 (cease to be forever)

and a plethora of scripture that show the wicked shall vanish away or be killed by the breath of His mouth
or be ((consumed)) by fire.

torment lasts to the end of the age
don't change the meaning of forever and eternal to be never ending
only Gods kingdom and being in Christ allows for us to be in the never ending kingdom

all other shall pass away
even death shall be no more.

Aimiel
April 30th, 2015, 05:12 AM
Word Based Mystic,

Please learn to use sentence structure, punctuation and paragraphs. When you do, I'll read your posts. Until then: yours are scrolled past.

Thanks,

Aimiel :thumb:

http://www.english-grammar-revolution.com/sentence-structure.html
http://www.busyteacherscafe.com/literacy/paragraph.html
http://www.wikihow.com/Use-English-Punctuation-Correctly

Word based mystic
April 30th, 2015, 05:27 AM
Word Based Mystic,

Please learn to use sentence structure, punctuation and paragraphs. When you do, I'll read your posts. Until then: yours are scrolled past.

Thanks,

Aimiel :thumb:

http://www.english-grammar-revolution.com/sentence-structure.html
http://www.busyteacherscafe.com/literacy/paragraph.html
http://www.wikihow.com/Use-English-Punctuation-Correctly

when i get a few minutes before i go to work
i grab what i can and put it down.

sorry about the sentence structure and punctuation. I am not an administrative kind of guy
so when in a hurry
it is either put it out there quick or withdraw.

I choose to put it out there.

my lack of perfection in :mock: grammer does not eliminate the argument.

from now on though to appease your delicate sensibilities I will only respond when i have proper time.

Timotheos
April 30th, 2015, 05:27 AM
I don't assume anything. I assume that smoke of torment ascending for ever and ever means just that. Where there's smoke there's torment.

According to the Bible, the wicked are destroyed. "Where there's smoke there's torment"? Why do you think that? Where there's smoke there is fire. Fire burns things up, fire destroys thing. Last weekend, I put a chicken in my smoker grill. There was plenty of smoke and no torment at all. So your assumption that "where there's smoke there's torment" is inaccurate.

The Bible says that the wicked will be destroyed. since I believe the Bible, I have to believe that the wicked will be destroyed instead of being Not-Destroyed and tortured alive forever. Why don't you believe what the Bible says?

Aimiel
April 30th, 2015, 05:38 AM
According to the Bible, the wicked are destroyed. Yes, but being 'destroyed' in the spirit realm and in the temporal realm are two different things. Also: according to The Bible, the smoke of their torment ascends for ever and ever.
The Bible says that the wicked will be destroyed. since I believe the Bible, I have to believe that the wicked will be destroyed instead of being Not-Destroyed and tortured alive forever. Why don't you believe what the Bible says?You don't believe that the smoke of their torment will ascend for ever and ever. Why don't you believe what The Bible says? :duh:

Word based mystic
April 30th, 2015, 06:04 AM
Yes, but being 'destroyed' in the spirit realm and in the temporal realm are two different things. Also: according to The Bible, the smoke of their torment ascends for ever and ever.You don't believe that the smoke of their torment will ascend for ever and ever. Why don't you believe what The Bible says? :duh:

yes their smoke will ascend till the end of the age.

till the new age of the new heaven and earth.

The Smoke of their torment may rise and ascend till the end of the age, but that does not equate to the wicked shall live past the end of the age .

psalm 37:20 But the wicked will (perish); And the enemies of the LORD will be like the glory of the pastures, They vanish-- (((like smoke they vanish away))).

psalm 68:2 May you blow them away like smoke-- as wax melts before the fire, may the wicked perish before God.

Aimiel
April 30th, 2015, 07:45 AM
The smoke of their torment ascends for ever and ever.

Cross Reference
April 30th, 2015, 10:09 AM
The smoke of their torment ascends for ever and ever.
Amen! They are the ones who NEED to interpret scripture to make it fit their bias and we are condemned if we don't see it their way. For the reason "why" is anyones guess. Problem for me is that it "shades" everything else they say one might agree upon being recognized it is all based upon an untruth that only compromises their belief __ a belief that, in the finality, won't take us home to "Father's House".

Ben Masada
April 30th, 2015, 02:48 PM
Yes death. Yes all who sin must die. Yes, all who die will also be judged. Yes, their flesh will be destroyed by flames and worm will eat their bones, for eternity. This will happen to all whose names were not written in The Lamb's Book of Life. Ignoring that after death comes judgment and eternal conscious torment is not being faithful to The Holy Scriptures. Those whose names are recorded in The Lamb's Book of Life will receive eternal life. Eternal suffering is the only fate found in Scriptures for those who chose death over life.

Noooo!!! Are you sure! Now, I wonder why babies die every day when they have never committed a single sin.

Do you know why Adam and Eve were banished from the Garden of Eden? If you read Gen. 3:22, it was to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and live forever. I wonder if it was because the attribute of eternal life could not be shared with humans. Aimiel, the only thing eternal about man is death, nothing else.

everready
April 30th, 2015, 03:24 PM
yes their smoke will ascend till the end of the age.

till the new age of the new heaven and earth.

The Smoke of their torment may rise and ascend till the end of the age, but that does not equate to the wicked shall live past the end of the age .

psalm 37:20 But the wicked will (perish); And the enemies of the LORD will be like the glory of the pastures, They vanish-- (((like smoke they vanish away))).

psalm 68:2 May you blow them away like smoke-- as wax melts before the fire, may the wicked perish before God.

Those are things we can see but what of those things we can't?

II Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.


everready

Cross Reference
April 30th, 2015, 03:33 PM
Noooo!!! Are you sure! Now, I wonder why babies die every day when they have never committed a single sin.

Babies are held blameless as in being innocent!! Ergo, NO damnation!!

Death = separation from God in whatever 'form' that might be, either from a life that cannot die or one that does.

Timotheos
April 30th, 2015, 03:34 PM
Yes, but being 'destroyed' in the spirit realm and in the temporal realm are two different things. Also: according to The Bible, the smoke of their torment ascends for ever and ever.You don't believe that the smoke of their torment will ascend for ever and ever. Why don't you believe what The Bible says? :duh:

Do you at least see how a person could believe that the wicked will destroyed when they read in the Bible "the wicked will be destroyed"?

I believe the SMOKE of their torment will rise forever, that is what that verse says, but you are asking me to believe something else - that their torment continues forever. The Bible doesn't say "being 'destroyed' in the spirit realm and in the temporal realm are two different things."