PDA

View Full Version : Matthew 27:53



Jonahdog
March 29th, 2015, 08:52 AM
Is there any evidence other than the Bible of tombs opening and the dead rising upon Christ's death? One would think such an extraordinary occurrence would have caught the eye of some contemporary witness.

Truster
March 29th, 2015, 09:04 AM
Is there any evidence other than the Bible of tombs opening and the dead rising upon Christ's death? One would think such an extraordinary occurrence would have caught the eye of some contemporary witness.

We* have all the proof necessary to accept and trust the scriptures.

We* The regenerate.

Zeke
March 29th, 2015, 09:26 AM
Is there any evidence other than the Bible of tombs opening and the dead rising upon Christ's death? One would think such an extraordinary occurrence would have caught the eye of some contemporary witness.

Its a symbol for what takes place in the temple of man from lower base thinking to a higher state of conscience awareness, the clues are there to find like the place of Christ death on the cross takes place on a hill meaning skull, his pointing to the human body being the kingdom, Jacob seeing God through the penial gland, yada yada etc....literal is a diversion for endless debates about faith and hope in the clouds of history and future.

Bill Donahue connects the brain with the medical terms hidden in the dark sayings of scripture, yet you Atheist want to play in the literal play ground with the Theist who think serpents talk and fish swallow men when it is all Esoteric teachings, Alvin Boyd Kuhn shows that lost interpretation to be only rational way to actually understand the meanings of these Ancient stories plagiarized by Rome, and perverted into the literal fruit that has rotted on the vine.

Jonahdog
March 29th, 2015, 09:29 AM
Its a symbol for what takes place in the temple of man from lower base thinking to a higher state of conscience awareness, the clues are there to find like the place of Christ death on the cross takes place on a hill meaning skull, his pointing to the human body being the kingdom, Jacob seeing God through the penial gland, yada yada etc....literal is a diversion for endless debates about faith and hope in the clouds of history and future.

Bill Donahue connects the brain with the medical terms hidden in the dark sayings of scripture, yet you Atheist want to play in the literal play ground with the Theist who think serpents talk and fish swallow men when it is all Esoteric teachings, Alvin Boyd Kuhn shows that lost interpretation to be only rational way to actually understand the meanings of these Ancient stories plagiarized by Rome, and perverted into the literal fruit that as rotted on the vine.

How do I know this verse is not to be taken literally? It is in the midst of the description of what Christians believe to be a literal occurrence.

Truster
March 29th, 2015, 10:13 AM
It just so happens that Matthew was a witness to the events.

Jonahdog
March 29th, 2015, 10:34 AM
It just so happens that Matthew was a witness to the events.

That does not answer my question. Are there any extra Biblical accounts of this extraordinary occurrence?

I also think that most Biblical scholars do not believe the writer of Matthew was an eye witness or one of the 12. I think the general thought is that the writer is unknown.

Jonahdog
March 30th, 2015, 06:00 AM
That does not answer my question. Are there any extra Biblical accounts of this extraordinary occurrence?

I also think that most Biblical scholars do not believe the writer of Matthew was an eye witness or one of the 12. I think the general thought is that the writer is unknown.

I take it no one has any extra Biblical evidence of the extraordinary claim made in Matthew 27:53.

SonOfCaleb
March 30th, 2015, 06:53 AM
The dead didn't rise in Matthew 27:53. They were simply thrown out of their tombs because of the Earthquake that was caused when Jesus died which Witnesses of the event reported as they went back into the City of Jerusalem.
Firstly for corpses to be thrown out of tombs by an Earthquake is not usual. The Greek writer Aelius Aristides reported this in the 2nd Century. And it has also happened in Colombia in 1967 where the practice of internment via Mausoleum or Tomb is more commonplace than burial.

Also note the preceding verse 52 says "..and many bodies" were 'raised' up. Thus Matthew is evidently referring to their corpses. He doesn't mention them coming to life. Even if you assume they did come to life it stands to reason that an event of that magnitude would be recorded elsewhere in the scriptures or other gospels. But it is not.

Lastly the Greek verb e·geiʹro, means to "raise up". It does not always refer to a resurrection. It can, among other things, also mean to “"lift out" from a pit or to "get up" from the ground.

Truster
March 30th, 2015, 08:13 AM
That does not answer my question. Are there any extra Biblical accounts of this extraordinary occurrence?

I also think that most Biblical scholars do not believe the writer of Matthew was an eye witness or one of the 12. I think the general thought is that the writer is unknown.

Matthew was one of the Apostles and an eye witness.

Jonahdog
March 30th, 2015, 09:09 PM
Matthew was one of the Apostles and an eye witness.

there may have been an Apostle Matthew but I think scholars do not believe he wrote the Gospel of that name.


Perhaps one of the Biblical scholars here could enlighten us both.

Mocking You
March 30th, 2015, 09:19 PM
Also note the preceding verse 52 says "..and many bodies" were 'raised' up. Thus Matthew is evidently referring to their corpses. He doesn't mention them coming to life.

He doesn't?

Matthew 27:53 NIV
They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Jonahdog
March 30th, 2015, 09:25 PM
The dead didn't rise in Matthew 27:53. They were simply thrown out of their tombs because of the Earthquake that was caused when Jesus died which Witnesses of the event reported as they went back into the City of Jerusalem.
Firstly for corpses to be thrown out of tombs by an Earthquake is not usual. The Greek writer Aelius Aristides reported this in the 2nd Century. And it has also happened in Colombia in 1967 where the practice of internment via Mausoleum or Tomb is more commonplace than burial.

Also note the preceding verse 52 says "..and many bodies" were 'raised' up. Thus Matthew is evidently referring to their corpses. He doesn't mention them coming to life. Even if you assume they did come to life it stands to reason that an event of that magnitude would be recorded elsewhere in the scriptures or other gospels. But it is not.

Lastly the Greek verb e·geiʹro, means to "raise up". It does not always refer to a resurrection. It can, among other things, also mean to “"lift out" from a pit or to "get up" from the ground.

The King James version : "51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

That suggests more than just having corpses shaken out of the ground by an earth quake. In fact it suggests that they came out of the ground not on Jesus' death but after the resurrection and went into Jerusalem and appeared to others. Yet no where else is this strange experience noted.
One would think that a number of people who had been entombed showing up would make the populace take notice. Note it states "many bodies...appeared to many."

daqq
October 30th, 2015, 08:16 AM
The King James version : "51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

That suggests more than just having corpses shaken out of the ground by an earth quake. In fact it suggests that they came out of the ground not on Jesus' death but after the resurrection and went into Jerusalem and appeared to others. Yet no where else is this strange experience noted.
One would think that a number of people who had been entombed showing up would make the populace take notice. Note it states "many bodies...appeared to many."

There is some tricky wording, (imo) in this passage. Bodies is plural but words like soma, (body) may have been used sometimes in a plural sense while pertaining to the many parts of the whole, (body). Most literalists, (meaning physical naturalists) will surely disagree with what I say here but this is how I read it:

Matthew 27:51-53
51. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent:
52. And the graves were opened; and a great body of the holy ones which slept arose:
53. And came out of the graves with [meta] the raising up of him, and went into the holy city, [Yerushalaim of above] and many [of them] were having been exhibited [made manifest in the Scripture, such as Hezekiah who was promised that he was healed and would go up into the House of YHWH in the Third Day, 2 Kings 20:5].

Another common misconception, (imo) promulgated by the physical naturalists comes into focus in the common understanding of the statement in Jude concerning Michael disputing with the Adversary over the body, (soma) of Moses. The "body of Moses" concerns not the physical body of Moses himself, (though the location of his burial was clearly hidden intentionally) but rather concerns all of the Tanach body of the holy ones and faithful.

Tanach "Body of the Saints" ~ "Body of Moses" (folded into Messiah - Matthew 27:51-53)
Brit Chadashah "Body of the Saints" ~ "Body of Messiah" :)

CherubRam
October 31st, 2015, 12:43 PM
Is there any evidence other than the Bible of tombs opening and the dead rising upon Christ's death? One would think such an extraordinary occurrence would have caught the eye of some contemporary witness.

According to scriptures that account is a falsehood. It pays to study the bible.

2 Thessalonians 2:2
not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.

CherubRam
October 31st, 2015, 12:45 PM
People! It was the Catholics who canonized the scriptures. Need I say more?

patrick jane
December 31st, 2017, 07:39 AM
Is there any evidence other than the Bible of tombs opening and the dead rising upon Christ's death? One would think such an extraordinary occurrence would have caught the eye of some contemporary witness.Matthew 27:51-54 KJV - And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Well, how many people do you think were IN the holy city? There was an earthquake and "many" bodies of the saints arose. How many is "many"? And appeared unto many, again how many? Apparently there WERE "contemporary" witnesses.

oatmeal
December 31st, 2017, 08:16 AM
Is there any evidence other than the Bible of tombs opening and the dead rising upon Christ's death? One would think such an extraordinary occurrence would have caught the eye of some contemporary witness.

The context is very revealing when read for what it says

Matthew 27:51-53

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

According to VP Wierwille, verses 52-53 must be additions to the text

I agree, reading those verses for what they say reveals the absurdity of what is said.

Evidently, the many bodies that arose after the veil was rent and the earthquake occurred arose but did not actually come out of the graves until three days later?

What nonsense! There is sufficient reason to delete those verses

Robert Pate
December 31st, 2017, 11:06 AM
Is there any evidence other than the Bible of tombs opening and the dead rising upon Christ's death? One would think such an extraordinary occurrence would have caught the eye of some contemporary witness.

More than that took place.

The veil covering the "Holy of Holies" was torn from the top to the bottom.

There was an earth quake.

Rocks were split in half.

The sky turned black.

Tombs were opened and many bodies of the saints arose and went into Jerusalem.

This was all recorded by Matthew so that we would know that something great had taken place when Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the world.

patrick jane
December 31st, 2017, 01:58 PM
The context is very revealing when read for what it says

Matthew 27:51-53

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

According to VP Wierwille, verses 52-53 must be additions to the text

I agree, reading those verses for what they say reveals the absurdity of what is said.

Evidently, the many bodies that arose after the veil was rent and the earthquake occurred arose but did not actually come out of the graves until three days later?

What nonsense! There is sufficient reason to delete those versesBlasphemy. It's no wonder you can't comprehend the Trinity.

daqq
December 31st, 2017, 07:22 PM
In the New Testament "the holy city" refers not to Jerusalem of below but to Jerusalem of above. Jerusalem of below is referred to as Sodom and Hagar-Egypt in the allegory, (Gal 4:24-26, Rev 11:8).

1Mind1Spirit
December 31st, 2017, 08:35 PM
In the New Testament "the holy city" refers not to Jerusalem of below but to Jerusalem of above. Jerusalem of below is referred to as Sodom and Hagar-Egypt in the allegory, (Gal 4:24-26, Rev 11:8).

Are you gonna say that even though that is symbolic that the Romans' crucifying Jesus was actually a physical event?(other than electrical firings in the brain)

daqq
December 31st, 2017, 08:39 PM
Are you gonna say that even though that is symbolic that the Romans' crucifying Jesus was actually a physical event?

I do believe the Master was crucified and raised from the dead: why do you suppose Paul had such a dramatic change? There was indeed someone crucified and raised from the dead or we would not today have any of the writings of Paul. However there is also deep symbolism within the event and I believe the passage in Matthew from this thread is part of that symbolism, (and there is much more where that came from, even from Matthew 24).

1Mind1Spirit
December 31st, 2017, 08:54 PM
I do believe the Master was crucified and raised from the dead: why do you suppose Paul had such a dramatic change? There was indeed someone crucified and raised from the dead or we would not today have any of the writings of Paul. However there is also deep symbolism within the event and I believe the passage in Matthew from this thread is part of that symbolism, (and there is much more where that came from, even from Matthew 24).

Thank you for the honesty.

What a breath of fresh air. Exhale........

I'm in agreement. :)

daqq
December 31st, 2017, 09:10 PM
Thank you for the honesty.

What a breath of fresh air. Exhale........

I'm in agreement. :)

Lol, it is probably for another thread, but I will say this, if you take Adam1 and add Adam2 you get Enosh: and Enosh cries Abba, Father. :)

Zeke
December 31st, 2017, 09:32 PM
I do believe the Master was crucified and raised from the dead: why do you suppose Paul had such a dramatic change? There was indeed someone crucified and raised from the dead or we would not today have any of the writings of Paul. However there is also deep symbolism within the event and I believe the passage in Matthew from this thread is part of that symbolism, (and there is much more where that came from, even from Matthew 24).

The symbolism favors the crucifixion being a spiritual event that happens in the kingdom of God Luke 17:20-21, Golgotha/Skull/Calvary in the Jerusalem that is now Galatians 4:1 the son in bondage to the works of the flesh, symbology Galatians 4:24-25, Rather than being a pagan ritual to appease some Deity that mocks the Father if taken literally. Plus you have nothing to prove these types of revelations only happened after the crucifixion you believe in.

daqq
December 31st, 2017, 10:12 PM
The symbolism favors the crucifixion being a spiritual event that happens in the kingdom of God Luke 17:20-21, Golgotha/Skull/Calvary in the Jerusalem that is now Galatians 4:1 the son in bondage to the works of the flesh, symbology Galatians 4:24-25, Rather than being a pagan ritual to appease some Deity that mocks the Father if taken literally. Plus you have nothing to prove these types of revelations only happened after the crucifixion you believe in.

I agree it is a spiritual event for us all if indeed one is crucified with Messiah. However now you have ventured into the realm of blood atonement and that is also one of the reasons tried to suggest that this should probably be for another thread. There is too much involved in the discussion you wish to pursue. It is surely a thread derailer.

1Mind1Spirit
December 31st, 2017, 10:26 PM
Lol, it is probably for another thread, but I will say this, if you take Adam1 and add Adam2 you get Enosh: and Enosh cries Abba, Father. :)

:shut: :thumb:

patrick jane
December 31st, 2017, 10:40 PM
I agree it is a spiritual event for us all if indeed one is crucified with Messiah. However now you have ventured into the realm of blood atonement and that is also one of the reasons tried to suggest that this should probably be for another thread. There is too much involved in the discussion you wish to pursue. It is surely a thread derailer.No matter, Jonahdog doesn't mind, he's not interested in this thread.

Zeke
December 31st, 2017, 11:00 PM
I will add another clue that goes along with Paul's statement in Galatians 4:24, Psalm 78:2, the rest of the PS follows the signs and wonders of the Exodus on to David, Psalm 78:65 goes along with Eph 5:14, the Lord awakens in us after we go through the Exodus/parable as a slave Galatians 4:1, until the Spirit awakens from its slumber in us Eph 5:14! Galatians 3:1-5, portrayal, The story of crucifixion is also Allegory/symbology those dark sayings of old "Divine History" not secular darkness.

daqq
December 31st, 2017, 11:11 PM
No matter, Jonahdog doesn't mind, he's not interested in this thread.

Sorry, I have already had several infractions for "disrupting threads".
Must be nice to be on the home-team though. :chuckle:

patrick jane
December 31st, 2017, 11:16 PM
Sorry, I have already had several infractions for "disrupting threads".
Must be nice to be on the home-team though. :chuckle:He derails every creation thread and some of mine. Turnabout.

CherubRam
December 31st, 2017, 11:49 PM
Is there any evidence other than the Bible of tombs opening and the dead rising upon Christ's death? One would think such an extraordinary occurrence would have caught the eye of some contemporary witness.

Sorry Jonah, that part is a corruption of text. The resurrection has not taken place yet. Throughout history, Judaism and Christianity have been under attack by Pagans and Gnostic's. That is the reason you see so much arguing.

daqq
January 1st, 2018, 12:09 AM
Sorry Jonah, that part is a corruption of text. The resurrection has not taken place yet. Throughout history, Judaism and Christianity have been under attack by Pagans and Gnostic's. That is the reason you see so much arguing.

So then you must believe in the "soul-sleep" doctrine which Paul refutes, (and these comments are indeed related to the OP passage in question). :)

CherubRam
January 1st, 2018, 12:57 AM
So then you must believe in the "soul-sleep" doctrine which Paul refutes, (and these comments are indeed related to the OP passage in question). :)

People are unaware until called back into being by Yahwah.

daqq
January 1st, 2018, 01:13 AM
People are unaware until called back into being by Yahwah.

People are unaware until Elohim calls them forth from the womb of their mother, (Gal 1:15-16). And this all changed at Golgotha, (Mat 27:52-54).

CherubRam
January 1st, 2018, 03:26 AM
People are unaware until Elohim calls them forth from the womb of their mother, (Gal 1:15-16). And this all changed at Golgotha, (Mat 27:52-54).

2 Timothy 2:18
who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.

Mat 27:52-54 says the resurrection has already taken place.

daqq
January 1st, 2018, 03:34 AM
2 Timothy 2:18
who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.

Mat 27:52-54 says the resurrection has already taken place.


Tanach "Body of the Saints" ~ "Body of Moses" (folded into Messiah - Mat 27:51-53)
Brit Chadashah "Body of the Saints" ~ "Body of Messiah"

.

Jonahdog
January 1st, 2018, 07:21 AM
Matthew 27:51-54 KJV - And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Well, how many people do you think were IN the holy city? There was an earthquake and "many" bodies of the saints arose. How many is "many"? And appeared unto many, again how many? Apparently there WERE "contemporary" witnesses.

But no extra Biblical accounts of this amazing occurrence.

Jonahdog
January 1st, 2018, 07:24 AM
No matter, Jonahdog doesn't mind, he's not interested in this thread.

No, I am. Still looking for any extra Biblical references to the dead leaving their tombs and heading off to Jerusalem to make themselves known.
So far nothing.

clefty
January 1st, 2018, 07:45 AM
Is there any evidence other than the Bible of tombs opening and the dead rising upon Christ's death? One would think such an extraordinary occurrence would have caught the eye of some contemporary witness.


I hope not. My faith is in that which is not seen...

Ha...Even His disciples didn’t believe He was resurrected...at first

and were extra biblical witnesses...at first

Good question though...wonder why you ask...

CherubRam
January 1st, 2018, 08:30 AM
.


John 5
King James Version (KJV)
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.


2 Timothy 2:18
who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.

2 Thessalonians 2:2
not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.

That is the Matt 27 verses here below.

Mat 27:52-54 says the resurrection has already taken place.


See how the word of God shows you what belongs in the bible. The resurrection has not taken place yet.

oatmeal
January 1st, 2018, 09:14 AM
Blasphemy. It's no wonder you can't comprehend the Trinity.

That is your opinion.

Too bad you cannot support conclusion

Have you ever read what that passage says?

NO, you have not.

Read it with your mind engaged to read what is says

There are manuscripts that do not contain that passage

That passage was added by someone.


When Jesus told Lazarus to come forth out of the grave, Lazarus did not wait three days and nights to come out. He did so promptly

John 11

43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.


When Jesus raised the son of the woman from Nain, he did remain on the bier for another three days and nights, he rose up immediately and began talking

Luke 7
14 And he came and touched the bier: and they that bare him stood still. And he said, Young man, I say unto thee, Arise.

15 And he that was dead sat up, and began to speak. And he delivered him to his mother.


When Jesus raised Jairus' daughter, she did not remain inert and stagnant for another three days and nights but had something to eat.

Luke 8

54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.

55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.


You really need to learn to utilize scriptural evidence instead of unlearned and ignorant traditions to support your theologies and your threeeology.

patrick jane
January 1st, 2018, 12:00 PM
I hope not. My faith is in that which is not seen...

Ha...Even His disciples didn’t believe He was resurrected...at first

and were extra biblical witnesses...at first

Good question though...wonder why you ask...Because he wants to be a believer.

Lon
January 1st, 2018, 12:43 PM
But no extra Biblical accounts of this amazing occurrence.

Er, no cell phones or internet at that time. I've seen miraculous healing. Anybody there to record it? :nono:

The temple veil ripped in two. Any other source give that bit? Nope. Only Jews would be interested. No newspaper, just a bit of gossip.

In short, your expectation 'seems' modern-day media-driven, to me. Did any one of the 5000 report the fishes and loaves? :nono: Only those 'interested" wrote about it. Try not to miss the forest for the trees: Don't get caught up in the events before you've listened to the message. Don't want either? Then there is no point in the latter, a waste of your time. If you get caught in details without catching the message, there is no point.

daqq
January 1st, 2018, 01:17 PM
John 5
King James Version (KJV)
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.


2 Timothy 2:18
who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.

2 Thessalonians 2:2
not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.

That is the Matt 27 verses here below.

Mat 27:52-54 says the resurrection has already taken place.


See how the word of God shows you what belongs in the bible. The resurrection has not taken place yet.

Nope, it just means the resurrection has not yet happened for YOU because the Gospel is personal and individual to each in his or her own appointed times: times appointed of the Father, when a "child", (milk), becomes a son, (meat), and no one knows the day or the hour, but the Father only. This is the failure of all the Preterists, the MADS, and the Futurist Dispys. Just keep walking, (and suckling on mother Jerusalem's teets, lol). Your apocalypse will not be televised. :chuckle:

CherubRam
January 1st, 2018, 02:05 PM
Nope, it just means the resurrection has not yet happened for YOU because the Gospel is personal and individual to each in his or her own appointed times: times appointed of the Father, when a "child", (milk), becomes a son, (meat), and no one knows the day or the hour, but the Father only. This is the failure of all the Preterists, the MADS, and the Futurist Dispys. Just keep walking, (and suckling on mother Jerusalem's teets, lol). Your apocalypse will not be televised. :chuckle:

The disciples gave a warning that the resurrection has not taken place yet, and that it is a false report. Are you one of those people who likes to make false reports?

daqq
January 1st, 2018, 02:19 PM
The disciples gave a warning that the resurrection has not taken place yet, and that it is a false report. Are you one of those people who likes to make false reports?

Aren't you one of those people who claims to be Michael the Archangel?
Yes, I have seen you say so on more than one occasion . . .

CherubRam
January 1st, 2018, 02:31 PM
Aren't you one of those people who claims to be Michael the Archangel?
Yes, I have seen you say so on more than one occasion . . .

Off topic.

daqq
January 1st, 2018, 02:48 PM
Off topic.

:rotfl:

And you don't think your false accusation after I explained my position was off-topic?

1 Corinthians 15:20-26 KJV
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming [parousia - appearing]
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

It is to each in his or her own order, just as Paul says in the statement above, and it began with the Messiah, and those from the Tanach "body of Moses", which were awakened in Mat 27:51-53 and folded into the new Covenant "body of Messiah". Your problem is that you still see yourself as "liable to die" because you have not separated your "self" from your carcass which will indeed die. Please note that those from the OP passage in question do not rise as soon as they are awakened, but rather not until Messiah rose first, for as Paul says, he is the firstfruits:

Matthew 27:52-53 KJV
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, [egeiro - "to awaken"]
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

It is not speaking about earthquakes and carcasses being cast out of their graves, as someone else erroneously suggested: it is supernal in meaning. There may be zombies in Jerusalem of below but not in Jerusalem of above. :chuckle:

CherubRam
January 1st, 2018, 03:00 PM
If you want to talk about angels Daqq, then start your own thread.

Zeke
January 1st, 2018, 03:12 PM
:rotfl:

And you don't think your false accusation after I explained my position was off-topic?

1 Corinthians 15:20-26 KJV
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming [parousia - appearing]
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

It is to each in his or her own order, just as Paul says in the statement above, and it began with the Messiah, and those from the Tanach "body of Moses", which were awakened in Mat 27:51-53 and folded into the new Covenant "body of Messiah". Your problem is that you still see yourself as "liable to die" because you have not separated your "self" from your carcass which will indeed die. Please note that those from the OP passage in question do not rise as soon as they are awakened, but rather not until Messiah rose first, for as Paul says, he is the firstfruits:

Matthew 27:52-53 KJV
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, [egeiro - "to awaken"]
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

It is not speaking about earthquakes and carcasses being cast out of their graves, as someone else erroneously suggested: it is supernal in meaning. There may be zombies in Jerusalem of below but not in Jerusalem of above. :chuckle:

Hey, he can be what ever he wants to be in the dream just like you are doing playing Hebrew prostylite who partook of to much old wine, and needs a twelve step program to reach :cloud9:.

daqq
January 1st, 2018, 03:29 PM
Hey, he can be what ever he wants to be in the dream just like you are doing playing Hebrew prostylite who partook of to much old wine, and needs a twelve step program to reach :cloud9:.

I received my doctrine from the Master just as Paul did.
For all intents and purposes Luke is Paul:

Luke 19:11-20 KJV
11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear [G3916 parachrema - "in full wealth" - "all at once"].
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, [Acts 2:1-3] having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 [B]Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:

Then came the first, then came the second, then another, and another, and so on and so on, even until now, and it will continue: for the Gospel is to each in his or her own appointed times, (and none shall be alone in his appointed times). But you, like CherubRam, cherry pick and choose what you will receive from the Master and what you will not eat from his table.

daqq
January 1st, 2018, 03:45 PM
There is some tricky wording, (imo) in this passage. Bodies is plural but words like soma, (body) may have been used sometimes in a plural sense while pertaining to the many parts of the whole, (body). Most literalists, (meaning physical naturalists) will surely disagree with what I say here but this is how I read it:

Matthew 27:51-53
51. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent:
52. And the graves were opened; and a great body of the holy ones which slept arose:
53. And came out of the graves with [meta] the raising up of him, and went into the holy city, [Yerushalaim of above] and many [of them] were having been exhibited [made manifest in the Scripture, such as Hezekiah who was promised that he was healed and would go up into the House of YHWH in the Third Day, 2 Kings 20:5].

Another common misconception, (imo) promulgated by the physical naturalists comes into focus in the common understanding of the statement in Jude concerning Michael disputing with the Adversary over the body, (soma) of Moses. The "body of Moses" concerns not the physical body of Moses himself, (though the location of his burial was clearly hidden intentionally) but rather concerns all of the Tanach body of the holy ones and faithful.

Tanach "Body of the Saints" ~ "Body of Moses" (folded into Messiah - Matthew 27:51-53)
Brit Chadashah "Body of the Saints" ~ "Body of Messiah" :)

As stated in my first post herein, Hezekiah was "exhibited" in the scripture, which is one way that indeed the word used in Mat 27:53 can be understood:

2 Kings 20:4-11 KJV
4 And it came to pass, afore Isaiah was gone out into the middle court, that the word of the LORD came to him, saying,
5 Turn again, and tell Hezekiah the captain of my people, Thus saith the LORD, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will heal thee: on the third day thou shalt go up unto the house of the LORD.
6 And [moreover] I will add unto thy days fifteen years; and I will deliver thee and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for mine own sake, and for my servant David's sake.
7 And Isaiah said, Take a lump of figs. And they took and laid it on the boil, and he recovered.
8 And Hezekiah said unto Isaiah, What shall be the sign that the LORD will heal me, and that I shall go up into the house of the LORD the third day?
9 And Isaiah said, This sign shalt thou have of the LORD, that the LORD will do the thing that he hath spoken: shall the shadow go forward ten degrees, or go back ten degrees?
10 And Hezekiah answered, It is a light thing for the shadow to go down ten degrees: nay, but let the shadow return backward ten degrees.
11 And Isaiah the prophet cried unto the LORD: and he brought the shadow ten degrees backward, by which it had gone down in the dial of Ahaz.

Hezekiah was first healed, that is physically, and fifteen years then proceeded to be added to his life: but that does not speak of him going up into the House of YHWH in the third day because the text plainly says so. The sign is then given, that the sundial would be turned back, and that sign was not that he would be physically healed because he already was, no, but that sign was that he might know that he would rise again the third day and go up into Jerusalem of above and the House of YHWH. And that is what Mat 27:52-53 is speaking of, and why it is written the way in which it is. Hezekiah is one of those exhibited in the writings, who awoke with the great congregation body of Moses, in Mat 27:52, and went up into the holy city, (Jerusalem of above), after/with the resurrection of Messiah in the third day.

daqq
January 1st, 2018, 03:50 PM
If you want to talk about angels Daqq, then start your own thread.

Where did I say any such thing except that the same is your very own claim? Can you not read what has been posted? You are already buried under a mountain of scripture and your claim that the Matthew passage is spurious and was inserted is a direct result of your own blindness and unwillingness to accept what the scripture says. You and Zeke can both be whatever you want to be in the dreams and machinations of your vain imaginations but it will no doubt come to its end.

Zeke
January 1st, 2018, 06:30 PM
I received my doctrine from the Master just as Paul did.
For all intents and purposes Luke is Paul:

Luke 19:11-20 KJV
11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear [G3916 parachrema - "in full wealth" - "all at once"].
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, [Acts 2:1-3] having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 [B]Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:

Then came the first, then came the second, then another, and another, and so on and so on, even until now, and it will continue: for the Gospel is to each in his or her own appointed times, (and none shall be alone in his appointed times). But you, like CherubRam, cherry pick and choose what you will receive from the Master and what you will not eat from his table.

Well your acting out a parable that only a child like imagination can decode (Matthew 18:3 )and enter its dark sayings that have been religiously adulterated by religions who need a spiritual reality check concerning the scriptures stories, there nothing wrong with impersonating if your an actor, its when the actor actually thinks his character is real then he loses his own identity he lost in the illusion he was playing in. And being the word juggler you are I would have thought that would have been rudimentary knowledge learned right after the audition.

clefty
January 1st, 2018, 07:19 PM
“I received my doctrine from the Master just as Paul did.”

Unlike Paul however, the Master intends to knock you off your high horse and blind you after you begin your teaching?

Jus askin’...

daqq
January 1st, 2018, 07:24 PM
“I received my doctrine from the Master just as Paul did.”

Unlike Paul however, the Master intends to knock you off your high horse and blind you after you begin your teaching?

Jus askin’...

Not really even worth a response because I quoted the Master in that post to explain what I meant. Do I need to be knocked off a "high horse" for believing the Messiah, and for believing the author of Luke who quotes him, and for believing Paul? Paul says, "Knowing therefore the terror of the Master, we persuade men", do you know the terror of the Master? How do you know whether or not terror is the correct rendering? I do know.

clefty
January 1st, 2018, 07:59 PM
Not really even worth a response because I quoted the Master in that post to explain what I meant. Do I need to be knocked off a "high horse" for believing the Messiah, and for believing the author of Luke who quotes him, and for believing Paul? Paul says, "Knowing therefore the terror of the Master, we persuade men", do you know the terror of the Master? How do you know whether or not terror is the correct rendering? I do know.

Ok ok...I have a hard time following you your style your teaching...was just kidding...you come out of very different fields...


And yes I do know the terror of the Master...to be rejected by Him would be terrifying...

Good text to recall...you watch gonna have to use it again soon...lol

And no I had not really noted the timing of the waking and the resurrecting of those who were raised...

Would explain why it was thought the resurrection had already occured if these were running around testifying this...

Obviously author of Matt was not an eyewitness to the rending of the temple curtain either but the store circulated I am sure...

Jonahdog
January 2nd, 2018, 06:19 AM
I hope not. My faith is in that which is not seen...

Ha...Even His disciples didn’t believe He was resurrected...at first

and were extra biblical witnesses...at first

Good question though...wonder why you ask...

There appear to be no recorded accounts other than that in the Bible, which was written years after the occurrence. One would expect that some Roman bureaucrat would have noted this influx of the deal into Jerusalem. So my best guess is that it never happened. Just more fluff added to support this new religion.

Jonahdog
January 2nd, 2018, 06:21 AM
Er, no cell phones or internet at that time. I've seen miraculous healing. Anybody there to record it? :nono:

The temple veil ripped in two. Any other source give that bit? Nope. Only Jews would be interested. No newspaper, just a bit of gossip.

In short, your expectation 'seems' modern-day media-driven, to me. Did any one of the 5000 report the fishes and loaves? :nono: Only those 'interested" wrote about it. Try not to miss the forest for the trees: Don't get caught up in the events before you've listened to the message. Don't want either? Then there is no point in the latter, a waste of your time. If you get caught in details without catching the message, there is no point.

So ignore this claim of an incredible event? Graves opening and the previously dead walking around Jerusalem? OK.
And the message. I know the message. It, as the walking dead story, is myth.

Lon
January 2nd, 2018, 05:15 PM
So ignore this claim of an incredible event? Graves opening and the previously dead walking around Jerusalem? OK.
And the message. I know the message. It, as the walking dead story, is myth.

Well, some myths are true. There was a St. Nicolas after all. What stake do you have? Just wanting to be incredulous for the incredible? I've seen incredible things. You wouldn't believe me if 'unwilling' is your MO. You get to own your own way of thinking. Does that mean it is the only way to think? That others are 'thinking' wrongly? I don't believe in ghosts. I'm not aghostist. I'm not even ag-ghostist.

clefty
January 2nd, 2018, 08:04 PM
There appear to be no recorded accounts other than that in the Bible, which was written years after the occurrence. One would expect that some Roman bureaucrat would have noted this influx of the deal into Jerusalem. So my best guess is that it never happened. Just more fluff added to support this new religion.

Well the intent of this exercise is working...it is meant to seperate those that believe Him His way which includes His word from those that dont...the message of the cross is foolishness indeed...but for a certain group...

So if I am wrong I had a great faith life anyway...and if you are...you didnt even have that...and now it gets worse

Jonahdog
January 2nd, 2018, 08:24 PM
Well the intent of this exercise is working...it is meant to seperate those that believe Him His way which includes His word from those that dont...the message of the cross is foolishness indeed...but for a certain group...

So if I am wrong I had a great faith life anyway...and if you are...you didnt even have that...and now it gets worse

So if I dont believe in the Holy Book my life will be awful? Hunh, hasn't happened so far.

clefty
January 2nd, 2018, 08:54 PM
So if I dont believe in the Holy Book my life will be awful? Hunh, hasn't happened so far.

Yeah better leave the Holy Book alone if what you do to my posts indicates at all how you read...lol

I wrote you didnt even have a great faith life...not that your life will be awful...actually many non believers prosper and are quite happy and content with their lives...but then it ends...

jsanford108
January 4th, 2018, 02:48 PM
How do I know this verse is not to be taken literally? It is in the midst of the description of what Christians believe to be a literal occurrence.

Zeke is pretty much fringe in his analysis as the particular verse being symbolic. You raise an excellent query, by asking how to derive literal and symbolic meaning.

jsanford108
January 4th, 2018, 03:13 PM
People! It was the Catholics who canonized the scriptures. Need I say more?

This is true. So, what is your source of truth, since you can't rely on Catholics?


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

jsanford108
January 4th, 2018, 03:25 PM
Jonahdog,

In order to have a productive, intellectual discussion, we must agree on three principles. 1.) To be objective. Facts are objective, and are unchanging. 2.) To follow evidence to wherever it leads, with skepticism, as well as belief. 3.) To be honest. We need to both be intellectually honest, and genuine, in our discussion.

CherubRam
January 4th, 2018, 05:15 PM
This is true. So, what is your source of truth, since you can't rely on Catholics?


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

Logical deduction. Truth is made known by reason of the facts.

Jonahdog
January 4th, 2018, 06:23 PM
Yeah better leave the Holy Book alone if what you do to my posts indicates at all how you read...lol

I wrote you didnt even have a great faith life...not that your life will be awful...actually many non believers prosper and are quite happy and content with their lives...but then it ends...

Life ends for everyone

clefty
January 4th, 2018, 06:39 PM
Life ends for everyone

This life maybe unless He returns...

But no, death of this life is exactly NOT the end...there is judgement and then ETERNITY for “here are they that keep the commandments of Yah and the faith OF His son”...note its NOT faith in HIm...but His faith walk...Him/His way

This life is just practice...or not...

jsanford108
January 4th, 2018, 07:40 PM
Logical deduction. Truth is made known by reason of the facts.

Right. So, what do you rely on as a base of faith, infallibly?



Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

jsanford108
January 4th, 2018, 07:52 PM
Don't worry Jdog, I will start a new thread if Cherubram debates issues off-topic; I assure you, my point lies with discussion on Scripture.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL