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quip
February 26th, 2015, 10:25 PM
.....like he did Adam? Re: Genesis 2:7

Nick M
February 26th, 2015, 10:26 PM
God didn't create God. And despite your claim, like Adam he was born without sin.

quip
February 26th, 2015, 10:29 PM
God didn't create God. And despite your claim, like Adam he was born without sin.

Jesus was given birth by a virgin....God had no hand in this?

OCTOBER23
February 26th, 2015, 10:34 PM
Jesus was given birth by a virgin....God had no hand in this?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
WRONG - WHAT ARE YOU REALLY TRYING TO DO - SPREAD DOUBT ?

Jesus had to be a Man because he had to be our Example and be Faithful to the END.

quip
February 26th, 2015, 10:36 PM
Jesus was given birth by a virgin....God had no hand in this?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
WRONG - WHAT ARE YOU REALLY TRYING TO DO - SPREAD DOUBT ?

Jesus had to be a Man because he had to be our Example and be Faithful to the END.

If searching for a logical explanation entails doubt...then yes, that's exactly what I'm doing.

quip
February 26th, 2015, 10:38 PM
Jesus was given birth by a virgin....God had no hand in this?

Jesus had to be a Man because he had to be our Example and be Faithful to the END.

Of course, but why all the virgin birth nonsense...when otherwise **POOF** ----> a fully viable Jesus would have sufficed?

OCTOBER23
February 26th, 2015, 10:41 PM
When ADAM AND EVE TOOK THE CHEMICALLY LADDEN APPLE ,

THEY ABSORBED SOME OF SATAN'S SPIRIT .

GOD COULD NOT CHANGE SATAN BUT HE CAN CHANGE LITTLE SATANS TO BECOME SAINTS.

HENCE JESUS MADE LIKE US AND SHOWING US HOW TO OVERCOME THE SATANIC NATURE.
--------------------------------

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh,

God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin,

condemned sin in the flesh:

quip
February 26th, 2015, 10:50 PM
When ADAM AND EVE TOOK THE CHEMICALLY LADDEN APPLE ,

THEY ABSORBED SOME OF SATAN'S SPIRIT .

GOD COULD NOT CHANGE SATAN BUT HE CAN CHANGE LITTLE SATANS TO BECOME SAINTS.

HENCE JESUS MADE LIKE US AND SHOWING US HOW TO OVERCOME THE SATANIC NATURE.
--------------------------------

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh,

God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin,

condemned sin in the flesh:

Seems I'm not getting through......kind of interesting response though since I just came from the "human brain vs. computer brain" thread. :cyborg:

patrick jane
February 26th, 2015, 11:20 PM
Seems I'm not getting through......kind of interesting response though since I just came from the "human brain vs. computer brain" thread. :cyborg:

lol :up:

patrick jane
February 26th, 2015, 11:23 PM
If searching for a logical explanation entails doubt...then yes, that's exactly what I'm doing.

:bang:

Levolor
February 26th, 2015, 11:34 PM
Of course, but why all the virgin birth nonsense...when otherwise **POOF** ----> a fully viable Jesus would have sufficed?

Concerning all that is past **POOF** ---->

It seems to me that it was advantageous that Jesus grow.

And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man. Luke 2:52

It is good to grow into power by growing the necessary responsibility and wisdom to handle such power.

Tambora
February 27th, 2015, 12:20 AM
.....like he did Adam? Re: Genesis 2:7My view is that if another man was an original creation (instead of descending from Adam), then they would not be blood kin.
And if not related by blood, then he could not be a kinsman redeemer.

OCTOBER23
February 27th, 2015, 12:33 AM
QUIP IS NOT A SERIOUS POSTER .

NOT GOING TO WASTE MY TIME WITH THIS.

Levolor
February 27th, 2015, 12:34 AM
My view is that if another man was an original creation (instead of descending from Adam), then they would not be blood kin.
And if not related by blood, then he could not be a kinsman redeemer.

Good point. Glad you brought that up. :up:

quip
February 27th, 2015, 01:06 AM
Concerning all that is past **POOF** ---->

It seems to me that it was advantageous that Jesus grow.

And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man. Luke 2:52

It is good to grow into power by growing the necessary responsibility and wisdom to handle such power.

Fair enough, though that aspect of Jesus' life is conspicuously absent from the Bible. If what you assert hold such importance to Jesus' views and teachings you'd think such an omission would be otherwise?

Nonetheless, Jesus is God or by some view the son of God, could not God impart this wisdom upon creation?

quip
February 27th, 2015, 01:08 AM
My view is that if another man was an original creation (instead of descending from Adam), then they would not be blood kin.
And if not related by blood, then he could not be a kinsman redeemer.

Who is this "they" you speak of and why this important?

quip
February 27th, 2015, 01:09 AM
QUIP IS NOT A SERIOUS POSTER .

NOT GOING TO WASTE MY TIME WITH THIS.

Bye then. :wave:

patrick jane
February 27th, 2015, 01:15 AM
Who is this "they" you speak of and why this important?

you have to ask ? ask "them" - :Patrol:

quip
February 27th, 2015, 01:18 AM
you have to ask ? ask "them" - :Patrol:

I'm assuming "a created Jesus" here...but the language is odd and why "blood kin" is important..I'm not sure why.

Lon
February 27th, 2015, 01:39 AM
Of course, but why all the virgin birth nonsense...when otherwise **POOF** ----> a fully viable Jesus would have sufficed?
He could have.


Who is this "they" you speak of and why this important?The work of the Cross was relational. Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet he did not sin

Philippians 2 also:
Php 2:3 Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.
Php 2:4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.
Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Php 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,
Php 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Php 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
So, there were a lot of reasons for this, including being close enough to set an example for us to follow, empathizing with the greatest capacity for reaching us, expressing Love in a tangible way ALL of us could understand on some base level, etc.

-Lon

chrysostom
February 27th, 2015, 01:58 AM
to redeem us
Jesus had to be God
God cannot be created

words have meaning
respect the meaning of words

Tambora
February 27th, 2015, 02:11 AM
Who is this "they" you speak of and why this important?Adam and the other original man God created.
In your scenario, the "other" would be Christ.

It matters because the kinsman redeemer was prophetic in OT.
The kinsman redeemer had to be blood kin.

In other words, Adam and all his descendants would have no kinsman redeemer if Christ was an original creation instead of being a blood kinsman to Adam himself.

quip
February 27th, 2015, 05:11 AM
Adam and the other original man God created.
In your scenario, the "other" would be Christ.

It matters because the kinsman redeemer was prophetic in OT.
The kinsman redeemer had to be blood kin.

In other words, Adam and all his descendants would have no kinsman redeemer if Christ was an original creation instead of being a blood kinsman to Adam himself.


Makes sense.
Good response.

/thread

bybee
February 27th, 2015, 06:02 AM
I'm assuming "a created Jesus" here...but the language is odd and why "blood kin" is important..I'm not sure why.

Blood is Life. In ancient times it had significance which influenced thinking and behavior that we no longer find necessary.
God does speak to us where we are at.

keypurr
March 4th, 2015, 09:20 PM
to redeem us
Jesus had to be God
God cannot be created

words have meaning
respect the meaning of words

Jesus was a man. Born human to Mary, Christ is a form of God, not God himself. Christ is the express image of the father, that makes him a created form of God. God is a spirit, so also is Christ, but he took the form of man to die for us. Jesus is the body prepared for Christ as told in Hebrews 10:5. Christ was with God at the creation, Christ is the son God sent to us. Jesus is the pure sinless body that held that spirit Christ.

Apple7
March 4th, 2015, 09:24 PM
Jesus was a man.



Yahweh is a Man of war; Yahweh is His name.

Exo 15.3

Mocking You
March 4th, 2015, 09:31 PM
Adam and the other original man God created.
In your scenario, the "other" would be Christ.

It matters because the kinsman redeemer was prophetic in OT.
The kinsman redeemer had to be blood kin.

In other words, Adam and all his descendants would have no kinsman redeemer if Christ was an original creation instead of being a blood kinsman to Adam himself.


Yes, good answer. This can be seen here:

Romans 5:18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

Base12
March 4th, 2015, 09:38 PM
Jesus is the Word.

The Word existed before anything was created.

John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"

/thread.

keypurr
March 4th, 2015, 09:50 PM
Jesus is the Word.

The Word existed before anything was created.

John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"

/thread.

Jesus is not the word. Christ, the spiritual son of the most high God is the WORD.

Early translations use the word IT not HE. They are correct.

Mocking You
March 4th, 2015, 09:52 PM
Jesus is not the word. Christ, the spiritual son of the most high God is the WORD.

Early translations use the word IT not HE. They are correct.

So you are arguing that EVERY translation we have is incorrect? All those scholars are wrong. (And I don't see the word He in John 1:1)

Angel4Truth
March 4th, 2015, 09:53 PM
Of course, but why all the virgin birth nonsense...when otherwise **POOF** ----> a fully viable Jesus would have sufficed?

How can one fully identify with our weakness yet remain without sin, if not born as man?

Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.

It was also fulfillment of prophecy that Jesus would be born of a woman.

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."

Isaiah 7:14 "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.

Matthew 1:23
"The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" (which means "God with us").

Zeke
March 4th, 2015, 10:10 PM
He could have.

The work of the Cross was relational. Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet he did not sin

Philippians 2 also:
Php 2:3 Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.
Php 2:4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.
Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Php 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,
Php 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Php 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
So, there were a lot of reasons for this, including being close enough to set an example for us to follow, empathizing with the greatest capacity for reaching us, expressing Love in a tangible way ALL of us could understand on some base level, etc.

-Lon

Yet there is no literal observational proof concerning a literal blood related sacrifice, the story used duality portrayed as two separated personalities/covenants that represented the dual nature in everyone as one goes from ignorant slavery to the laws of matter/earth to liberty of the Spiritual that transcends the bondage of flesh, which Galatians addresses, the spiritual seed (Jesus) comes from above Galatians 4:26. The cross takes place within us when the Divine side of us is awakened/born and the lower nature rebels against it.

The literal is the lowest level of spiritual understanding even though it seems great to the natural mind, it is still flesh and blood based Matt 11:11, Christ Seed isn't born by flesh though it hosts it, it is born in flesh not the other way around! plus one has to experience all phases which includes failure to be an over comer in like manner.

keypurr
March 4th, 2015, 10:27 PM
So you are arguing that EVERY translation we have is incorrect? All those scholars are wrong. (And I don't see the word He in John 1:1)

Check the content of the first chapter friend..

The WORD BECAME flesh, Jesus was born flesh so he did not become flesh. However Christ, God's true son, who was spirit did become flesh. Hebrews 10:5, Phil 2, Col 1.

Not every translation is wrong but the KJV is.

rougueone
May 5th, 2015, 10:56 PM
Fair enough, though that aspect of Jesus' life is conspicuously absent from the Bible. If what you assert hold such importance to Jesus' views and teachings you'd think such an omission would be otherwise?

Nonetheless, Jesus is God or by some view the son of God, could not God impart this wisdom upon creation?

Wisdom an Excellent Gift of God....
…27 Then He saw it and declared it; He established it and also searched it out. "And to man He said, 'Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; And to depart from evil is understanding.'"

rougueone
May 5th, 2015, 11:00 PM
Check the content of the first chapter friend..

The WORD BECAME flesh, Jesus was born flesh so he did not become flesh. However Christ, God's true son, who was spirit did become flesh. Hebrews 10:5, Phil 2, Col 1.

Not every translation is wrong but the KJV is.

Perhaps a more accurate description is....

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 " He--Jesus", was in the beginning with God.…john I
The Word became flesh--Jesus, and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. john 1:14.
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched--this we proclaim concerning the Word of life.1 John 1:1
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation......Col. I:15---- " He--Jesus", was in the beginning with God.… John I
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is: the Word of God.....the Word was God....The Word became flesh----and made his dwelling among us.

Thus, Jesus is God. Not pre-existing God. Nor God pre-existing Jesus. As God-Jesus are the same. The Scripture validates this.
I know this maybe a little much for some to get wrapped around. it is so surreal. But that is our Holy God. Surreal.

Hope this helps.

keypurr
May 6th, 2015, 05:29 PM
Perhaps a more accurate description is....

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 " He--Jesus", was in the beginning with God.…john I
The Word became flesh--Jesus, and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. john 1:14.
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched--this we proclaim concerning the Word of life.1 John 1:1
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation......Col. I:15---- " He--Jesus", was in the beginning with God.… John I
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is: the Word of God.....the Word was God....The Word became flesh----and made his dwelling among us.

Thus, Jesus is God. Not pre-existing God. Nor God pre-existing Jesus. As God-Jesus are the same. The Scripture validates this.
I know this maybe a little much for some to get wrapped around. it is so surreal. But that is our Holy God. Surreal.

Hope this helps.

Traditional fables will not bring you facts.

Jesus was a man BORN to Mary, do not confuse him with the express image son at the creation. A man did not create this Universe, a spirit did. Have you not read in Genesis that the spirit moved across the face of the waters. This same spirit is the logos in John 1. The word in John 1 is not Jesus, it is the spirit Christ. This spirit came with the fullness of the father to dwell in Jesus. Jesus is the body God prepared to hold his true son Christ.

These thoughts are most likely new to you. It would be well worth your time to study them. Start with the express image of the Father and use more than one translation.

Peace

Bright Raven
May 6th, 2015, 05:30 PM
Because he already was!

George Affleck
May 6th, 2015, 10:06 PM
Jesus was given birth by a virgin....God had no hand in this?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
WRONG - WHAT ARE YOU REALLY TRYING TO DO - SPREAD DOUBT ?

Jesus had to be a Man because he had to be our Example and be Faithful to the END.

He ain't called Quip for nothing!

rougueone
May 6th, 2015, 10:18 PM
to redeem us
Jesus had to be God
God cannot be created

words have meaning
respect the meaning of words

Amen.

rougueone
May 6th, 2015, 10:21 PM
Traditional fables will not bring you facts.

Jesus was a man BORN to Mary, do not confuse him with the express image son at the creation. A man did not create this Universe, a spirit did. Have you not read in Genesis that the spirit moved across the face of the waters. This same spirit is the logos in John 1. The word in John 1 is not Jesus, it is the spirit Christ. This spirit came with the fullness of the father to dwell in Jesus. Jesus is the body God prepared to hold his true son Christ.

These thoughts are most likely new to you. It would be well worth your time to study them. Start with the express image of the Father and use more than one translation.


Peace

Gods spoken-written words say other wise. I prefer the translation given. It leaves no doubt.

rougueone
May 6th, 2015, 10:28 PM
Because he already was!

Truth.

keypurr
May 6th, 2015, 10:39 PM
to redeem us
Jesus had to be God
God cannot be created

words have meaning
respect the meaning of words

No, Jesus did not have to be God, he had to be human.

A form of God was created.

keypurr
May 6th, 2015, 10:49 PM
Jesus is the Word.

The Word existed before anything was created.

John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"

/thread.

Jesus is NOT the word, the Christ IN him is.

keypurr
May 6th, 2015, 10:53 PM
Amen.

My God can not die.

quip
May 6th, 2015, 11:23 PM
Because he already was!

already was....what?

rougueone
May 6th, 2015, 11:24 PM
My God can not die.

Nor mine. This is what Chrystom stated also.

George Affleck
May 7th, 2015, 04:26 AM
My God can not die.

My God can and did.

Cross Reference
May 7th, 2015, 04:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrysostom View Post

to redeem us
Jesus had to be God
God cannot be created

words have meaning
respect the meaning of words



Jesus could not have been God to die for the sin of Adam. He had to be sinless and of Adam's progeny in every sense of the word. That is what our "redemption" is all about, i.e., one cannot redeem what doesn't belong to him even with the price required, until all the conditions are met. Should the prequalified "redeemer" fail in procuring the "price" under the specified conditions then the object can be sold to whomever.

When we understand what Jesus did we might see it this way:

Part of the price Jesus paid was to allow Himself to be subjected to vanity for the purpose of overcoming its power over man. When the vanity of man is overcome, sin is canceled out. The "door" to man's heart for sin to enter is made shut. Jesus procured this for man by His "sinless" death. Read Romans 6:7-14 in that light.

jamie
May 7th, 2015, 04:57 AM
Start with the express image of the Father and use more than one translation.


Keypurr, I have already explained to you that the Greek word for image is charakter which refers to Jesus' nature as being the nature of God.

rougueone
May 7th, 2015, 11:43 AM
My God can and did.

Our God, defeated death. I should of been specific. However, God cannot die, when getting to specifics. Yes, God is Jesus. But God still maintained HIS life in Heaven. Perhaps through an " inexplicable" event that might be called sovereign departure,?.... as " somehow ", God was separated from God.
Some things remain a mystery and are not for us to know.


And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying “My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?”

Noting the only time Jesus did not use the name " Father".

rougueone
May 7th, 2015, 11:45 AM
Keypurr, I have already explained to you that the Greek word for image is charakter which refers to Jesus' nature as being the nature of God.

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation......Col. I:15.

What is Gods nature ? God.

rougueone
May 7th, 2015, 12:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrysostom View Post



Jesus could not have been God to die for the sin of Adam. He had to be sinless and of Adam's progeny in every sense of the word. That is what our "redemption" is all about, i.e., one cannot redeem what doesn't belong to him even with the price required, until all the conditions are met. Should the prequalified "redeemer" fail in procuring the "price" under the specified conditions then the object can be sold to whomever.

When we understand what Jesus did we might see it this way:

Part of the price Jesus paid was to allow Himself to be subjected to vanity for the purpose of overcoming its power over man. When the vanity of man is overcome, sin is canceled out. The "door" to man's heart for sin to enter is made shut. Jesus procured this for man by His "sinless" death. Read Romans 6:7-14 in that light.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 " He, was in the beginning with God ( Who is he ?---Jesus). .…john I
The Word became flesh--Jesus, and made his " Word" from the beginning to dwell among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. john 1:14.
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched--this we proclaim concerning the Word of life ( again the word is GOD-jesus--made flesh---to dwell among us--making the Word, God-Jesus, "Life". .1 John 1:1
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation......Col. I:15---- " He--Jesus", was in the beginning with God.… John I
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is: the Word of God.....the Word was God....The Word became flesh----and made his dwelling among us.

The Son is the image of the invisible God. Because God is Spirit, and cannot be seen by human eye's.
Thus, God became flesh to make HIS love know,to defeat death-sin, to show us how to live --defeat our sins through HIS forgiveness and repentance, and now we have access to GOD again, our relationship restored, not quite complete, through the HOLY SPIRIT of God.


Thus, Jesus is God. Not pre-existing God. Nor God pre-existing Jesus. As God-Jesus are the same. The Scripture validates this.
I know this maybe a little much for some to get wrapped around. it is so surreal. But that is our Holy God. Surreal.

Hope this helps.

Cross Reference
May 7th, 2015, 12:43 PM
[QUOTE]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 " He, was in the beginning with God ( Who is he ?---Jesus)

Was His Name really Jesus before Jesus was born? We really don't know and it really wouldn't matter insofar as the human Jesus was but a body prepared for the Word to indwell. The rest of what is said about the Word was by the faithfulness of Jesus that it could eventually be stated Jesus was indeed the Word that dwelt among us.


The Son is the image of the invisible God. Because God is Spirit, and cannot be seen by human eye's.

Very true.



Thus, God became flesh to make HIS love know,to defeat death-sin, to show us how to live --defeat our sins through HIS forgiveness and repentance, and now we have access to GOD again, our relationship restored, not quite complete, through the HOLY SPIRIT of God.

God never became flesh until the man Jesus proved Himself faithful in handling His Glory. That is what His transfiguration and resurrection was all about, i.e., evidence that He perform according to God's will.


Thus, Jesus is God.

He is now. That is why He is called the second Adam, the federal head of a Holy new creation.

1Mind1Spirit
May 7th, 2015, 02:11 PM
Was His Name really Jesus before Jesus was born? We really don't know and it really wouldn't matter insofar as the human Jesus was but a body prepared for the Word to indwell. The rest of what is said about the Word was by the faithfulness of Jesus that it could eventually be stated Jesus was indeed the Word that dwelt among us.



Very true.




God never became flesh until the man Jesus proved Himself faithful in handling His Glory. That is what His transfiguration and resurrection was all about, i.e., evidence that He perform according to God's will.



He is now. That is why He is called the second Adam, the federal head of a Holy new creation.

For what it's worth bro, Right on.:guitar::cheers:

jamie
May 7th, 2015, 02:14 PM
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation......Col. I:15.


You missed the background to my post.

Cross Reference
May 7th, 2015, 02:20 PM
[QUOTE=Cross Reference;4311106]

For what it's worth bro, Right on.:guitar::cheers:

It's worth a lot. Thank You.

Ben Masada
May 7th, 2015, 02:32 PM
Perhaps because Jesus was born of Joseph and Mary. Otherwise, the only option left is John 8:41 because, when Jesus was born, the Land of Israel was occupied by legions of Roman soldiers and they were not subject to Morality according to Jewish moral values.

rougueone
May 7th, 2015, 03:30 PM
[QUOTE=Cross Reference;4311106]

For what it's worth bro, Right on.:guitar::cheers:

Sorry not my post/words.

rougueone
May 7th, 2015, 04:48 PM
You missed the background to my post.

Thanks, I understand . Sorry my friend.

Cross Reference
May 7th, 2015, 04:50 PM
[QUOTE=1Mind1Spirit;4311199]

Sorry not my post/words.

I know.

jamie
May 7th, 2015, 05:07 PM
Thanks, I understand . Sorry my friend.


No problem, keypurr has his own understanding of image. Maybe he will tell you about it.

keypurr
May 7th, 2015, 08:20 PM
My God can and did.


If he died he is not God. Jesus told you that only his father is the true God in John 17:3.
Why do you not listen to him?

keypurr
May 7th, 2015, 08:25 PM
Keypurr, I have already explained to you that the Greek word for image is charakter which refers to Jesus' nature as being the nature of God.


My valued friend I suggest you compare Heb 1:3 in a few different translations. God created a copy of himself, a spirit, Christ. Once you see that it could open your mind to my thoughts. This is the son at the creation and this is the true son he SENT from heaven.

jamie
May 7th, 2015, 08:31 PM
My valued friend I suggest you compare Heb 1:3 in a few different translations. God created a copy of himself, a spirit, Christ.


Keypurr, I full well understand what you believe and why you believe it.

I've not seen any scripture that says that the preincarnate Christ was a created being. I read just the opposite.

:cheers:

keypurr
May 7th, 2015, 08:31 PM
Our God, defeated death. I should of been specific. However, God cannot die, when getting to specifics. Yes, God is Jesus. But God still maintained HIS life in Heaven. Perhaps through an " inexplicable" event that might be called sovereign departure,?.... as " somehow ", God was separated from God.

Some things remain a mystery and are not for us to know.





And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying “My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?”



Noting the only time Jesus did not use the name " Father".


I disagree, Jesus was a man that was given the express image of God spirit. That spirit is a created form of God. Being a creation, he could die as a man.

The true Christ is a spirit, God used him to create everything. He was and is the second in command in the heavenly host. He took the form of man to enlighten us about his father and die on the cross. He spoke through Jesus, he was in the world, he created the world and the world knew him not. Most still do not know him.

keypurr
May 7th, 2015, 08:41 PM
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 " He, was in the beginning with God ( Who is he ?---Jesus). .…john I

The Word became flesh--Jesus, and made his " Word" from the beginning to dwell among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. john 1:14.

That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched--this we proclaim concerning the Word of life ( again the word is GOD-jesus--made flesh---to dwell among us--making the Word, God-Jesus, "Life". .1 John 1:1

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation......Col. I:15---- " He--Jesus", was in the beginning with God.… John I

He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is: the Word of God.....the Word was God....The Word became flesh----and made his dwelling among us.



The Son is the image of the invisible God. Because God is Spirit, and cannot be seen by human eye's.

Thus, God became flesh to make HIS love know,to defeat death-sin, to show us how to live --defeat our sins through HIS forgiveness and repentance, and now we have access to GOD again, our relationship restored, not quite complete, through the HOLY SPIRIT of God.





Thus, Jesus is God. Not pre-existing God. Nor God pre-existing Jesus. As God-Jesus are the same. The Scripture validates this.

I know this maybe a little much for some to get wrapped around. it is so surreal. But that is our Holy God. Surreal.



Hope this helps.


The son that laid the foundation of the Universe is a SPIRIT, not a man. Jesus was born a man into the world created by the spiritual son of the most high God. You do not understand that traditional doctrine on who the son is in error. Jesus was born, Christ was SENT. In other words, Christ came down to us to become flesh. At his baptism, Jesus was anointed with this spirit, it was at that time God declared that this was his son. God joined his flesh son with his spiritual son. Read Heb 10:5, Christ needed a body prepared for him, why, because he was spirit like his creator. Man was created on the image of God, but Christ was created in the EXPRESS image of God. Huge difference friend.

keypurr
May 7th, 2015, 08:52 PM
Gods spoken-written words say other wise. I prefer the translation given. It leaves no doubt.


No it really does not. Man has twisted what is written to fit their traditions that were formulated by church fathers that thought the world was flat. I do not request that you take my word for what I post, I just want you to study it for yourself. There are many doubts is the churches traditions friend. I spent many years sitting and soaking in the church. But I did not feel God there.

Scripture is my only authority for my thoughts. I have read many books over the years. I have heard many opinions, but it is scripture that I see as truth. But even scripture has been tampered with by folks who translated their ideas into their work in translating the earliest ms in to our English Bibles.

rougueone
May 7th, 2015, 09:22 PM
No it really does not. Man has twisted what is written to fit their traditions that were formulated by church fathers that thought the world was flat. I do not request that you take my word for what I post, I just want you to study it for yourself. There are many doubts is the churches traditions friend. I spent many years sitting and soaking in the church. But I did not feel God there.

Scripture is my only authority for my thoughts. I have read many books over the years. I have heard many opinions, but it is scripture that I see as truth. But even scripture has been tampered with by folks who translated their ideas into their work in translating the earliest ms in to our English Bibles.

I understand. people today would put a twist on a " Bible" even if it was hand written by God in front of them. We see this frequently. Thanks for your heartfelt response Keypurr.
Speaking of churches, I started a Thread you may have some insight on.

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4311583#post4311583

keypurr
May 7th, 2015, 09:28 PM
I understand. people today would put a twist on a " Bible" even if it was hand written by God in front of them. We see this frequently. Thanks for your heartfelt response Keypurr.
Speaking of churches, I started a Thread you may have some insight on.

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4311583#post4311583

Ok friend, I will go check it out.

jamie
May 8th, 2015, 06:24 AM
Jesus was born, Christ was SENT.


Christ was sent to be born as Jesus, the Savior of the world. It's through his blood we were reconciled to the Father.

Christ is a title for Israel's Messiah, the King, who is Jesus.

jamie
May 8th, 2015, 06:30 AM
But even scripture has been tampered with by folks who translated their ideas into their work in translating the earliest ms in to our English Bibles.


Such as adding the word "express" to image in Hebrews 1:3.

King James fooled you, the Father's goal is to develop his and Jesus' character in us. Character is not created, it is developed over time by various tests and trials.

This Charming Manc
May 8th, 2015, 06:33 AM
at least understand what your arguing against


Jesus was given birth by a virgin....God had no hand in this?

rainee
May 8th, 2015, 07:37 AM
I do not want to make a mess but I just love talking about my theory.
Here it is.
The earthly works a certain way because it is pointing to or mirroring dimly a spiritual reality. WE cannot see spiritual things we are earthly - so earthly pictures are good for us as long as we realize they have limitations, right? Right! Glad you are going with me on that.

So human Babies in the womb - start the same but are actually very different when everything is going as planned. When going normally at a certain point in development little boy babies will have a sex bath (meaning male sex hormones are produced and flow to every portion of the baby.) Then male parts start to develop.

After birth a rather low level of male hormones are kept going -
Until a trigger causes the little boys to start becoming men. And then it is just
a mess from then on until they pass away ...
Ok, Kidding!!

Anyway The Lord Jesus is born of a woman. That makes Him human.
But he has not a human Father - That makes Him NOT.

Who does that remind you of?

Little babies who grow up to be men.
They have the X like all girls do or should when it is going routinely.
But they also have the Y instead of another X.

I think if you looked at Adam he is HH (Human made from dust, but with God's breath breathed into him. Similar to my being XX .)

The Lord is not.

keypurr
May 8th, 2015, 09:15 AM
Christ was sent to be born as Jesus, the Savior of the world. It's through his blood we were reconciled to the Father.



Christ is a title for Israel's Messiah, the King, who is Jesus.


I do not believe that Christ was sent to be born.
Jesus was not the Christ when Mary gave birth to him.
Christ is a spirit that needed a body.

Jesus was born the Saviour, not the Christ. That came later at his anointing.
Jesus had blood to shed, Christ did not until he took the form of man.

Christ came down from heaven, Jesus did not.
Christ spoke through Jesus and existed before the world, Jesus was born in Bethlehem just was scripture tells you.

Ever ask why Jesus, who was sinless, needed to be baptized? Was not baptism for the remission of sin? He needed to be anointed with the spiritual son, Christ. Christ is a form of God, Christ needed to become a man. The son at the creation was not the son born to Mary, it is the son that God made in his exact image and was pleased that it had his fullness. This is the logos in John 1, not Jesus. Jesus was born flesh, he did not become flesh. Christ was created as a spirit and became flesh. Christ is a god, Jesus a man.

Christ is both a title and a name jamie. You must use more than one translation to see what my thoughts are. The KJV just does not tell all about our Lord and his God.

jamie
May 8th, 2015, 01:07 PM
Jesus was born the Saviour, not the Christ.


Jesus was born the King, the Messiah. The word "Christ" comes from the Greek christos which is translated into English as Christ and is the equivalent of Messiah, the anointed king.

Jesus was born as the Christ, the King, the Messiah and he received kingly gifts.


Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the East came to Jerusalem, saying, “Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the East and have come to worship Him.” (Matthew 2:1-2 NKJV)

Cross Reference
May 8th, 2015, 01:12 PM
Jesus was born the King, the Messiah. The word "Christ" comes from the Greek christos which is translated into English as Christ and is the equivalent of Messiah, the anointed king.

Jesus was born as the Christ, the King, the Messiah and he received kingly gifts.


Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the East came to Jerusalem, saying, “Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the East and have come to worship Him.” (Matthew 2:1-2 NKJV)

Don't you find it interesting that though Jesus was born the King, He still had to be proven?

jamie
May 8th, 2015, 01:14 PM
The Lord is not.


The Lord is XY and is a Son, the Son of Man and the Son of God in one.

jamie
May 8th, 2015, 01:22 PM
Don't you find it interesting that though Jesus was born the King, He still had to be proven?


Yes, Jesus had to build character to be like God, he had to learn obedience.


Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him. (Hebrews 5:8-9 KJV)

Jesus became perfect (complete) through trials just as we do.

Cross Reference
May 8th, 2015, 01:31 PM
Yes, Jesus had to build character to be like God, he had to learn obedience.


Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him. (Hebrews 5:8-9 KJV)

Jesus became perfect (complete) through trials just as we do.

But without what He did on the cross coupled with the new birth, we wouldn't succeed, would we?

keypurr
May 10th, 2015, 02:39 PM
Jesus was born the King, the Messiah. The word "Christ" comes from the Greek christos which is translated into English as Christ and is the equivalent of Messiah, the anointed king.

Jesus was born as the Christ, the King, the Messiah and he received kingly gifts.


Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the East came to Jerusalem, saying, “Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the East and have come to worship Him.” (Matthew 2:1-2 NKJV)


King of the Jews does not mean Christ.
Christ means anointed.
Christ is also recorded as the exact image of God.
There was a son of God before there was a Jesus.
Folks are not taught about IT in church. It upsets their applecart too much.

Jesus received the POWER at his anointing. That power is the spirit Christ. Christ took the form of man. Christ is a form of God for he was given the fullness of the Father. When God joined his spiritual son with his flesh son he declared that this was his son.

Jesus was not born with the power to create the Universe, he was born to be the Lamb of God and destroy the works of Satan. He had to grow in wisdom like everyone else. Then he was given the power and wisdom of the Father.

jamie
May 10th, 2015, 03:08 PM
King of the Jews does not mean Christ.
Christ means anointed.


All of Israel's kings were anointed beginning with Saul.

jamie
May 10th, 2015, 03:10 PM
Jesus received the POWER at his anointing. That power is the spirit Christ.


We know that's not true.

jamie
May 10th, 2015, 03:12 PM
Jesus was not born with the power to create the Universe, he was born to be the Lamb of God and destroy the works of Satan.


Look at the world today and explain to me in what way Satan has been destroyed. We have power over Satan but the world doesn't.

freelight
January 16th, 2016, 02:39 AM
.....like he did Adam? Re: Genesis 2:7

I see no reason or purpose to create Jesus in the same way Adam was created, since Adam in the record of Genesis was the first man (other records challenge this however, since they speak of humans tribes living on earth before Adam arrived, from whence Cain got his wife, but that's another subject).

Once the human population continued in its various tribes and races, all 'God' (whoever the creator or Lord of this local universe is, including all its inhabited planets) would need to do was choose a time to 'incarnate' or 'bestow' himself within a human form/personality to reveal his nature and will to the world, and by that 'incarnation' also experience being 'human' in every dimension, the full breadth of experience, to better acquaint himself most intimately by partaking of their very nature, the divine co-mingling with human nature. In such a 'synergy' of Creator and created,....a new triumph and victory is attained by the divine, also taking up humanity with it, to become spiritualized, so we have the archetype of the perfect God-Man, or the divinitized human. In this sense, 'Man' being created/made in the 'image' and 'likeness' of 'God' comes full circle, into full fruition, since Jesus, the second Adam...completes the full synthesis or marriage of 'God' and 'Man' being a living representation of it.

In this case, Jesus is unique, the 'last' or 'second Adam'....fathering a new race of spirit-born sons, a new humanity, a 'new creation' as it were. What is important to note is that thru the 'incarnation' or 'bestowal' of Jesus,...'God' comes in a special way thru the lineage of Man already evolved after so many centuries at the right time or dispensation. While there is a divine mystery behind the incarnation...as Deity assumes human form, the birth also still came thru ordinary human and natural means as well, since Mary became pregnant and begat Jesus in the same way as any other human child is born (at least after her conception). Whether Mary was made pregnant by some spiritual force, power or personality, or by Joseph or another man....Jesus still was born as any other ordinary human child...and grew up the same way, experiencing life as a human, his life having meaning and significance because of his special nature/identity/potential, and what would be accomplished or realized thru the ordeal of his human experience.

freelight
January 16th, 2016, 03:02 AM
Yahweh is a Man of war; Yahweh is His name.

Exo 15.3


In other places this 'YHWH' seems to claim NOT to be man or the son of man, even if you imagine this 'God' in anthropomorphic terms (such being but an 'image'). No other monotheists believes 'God' is a 'Man', nor can ever become one (since 'God' is in a class or category of being, like no other, one of a kind, NOT human, but pure Spirit, incorporeal, birthless/deathless, immortal, infinite), except Christians. Do note that.

Furthermore, this tribal war-monging 'god' does seem to be a 'warrior-deity' (or a 'man', being figurative language), since he ordered wholesale slaughtering of communities, men, women and children,...plus looting, so he does appear to be much like a 'man of war',.....I don't if this proves much though (beyond figurative language), except to have second thoughts on whether such a 'god' deserves worship.

Neither does this one verse prove that Jesus (being a man) is 'God' (if that is anywhere assumed or correlated), since to do that is to superimpose and re-rig Jewish scriptures to support Christian interpretations and assumptions, which Orthodox Jews and rabbis reject, knowing their own scriptures quite well.

Futhermore, Jesus who came to reveal 'God' as our Loving Heavenly Father, NEVER portrayed 'God' as a 'MAN' of war....but a benevolent Father, who makes his sun shine and his rain rain on the just and the unjust, the good and the evil, being no respector of persons. This is quite different than some war-mongering god worshipped by a few select tribes, among other tribes who worshipped their own brand of 'gods' as well.

quip
January 16th, 2016, 03:34 AM
I see no reason or purpose to create Jesus in the same way Adam was created, since Adam in the record of Genesis was the first man (other records challenge this however, since they speak of humans tribes living on earth before Adam arrived, from whence Cain got his wife, but that's another subject).


Too much expended effort here FL.

Likewise, the efforts of God pertaining to the virgin birth of his son and subsequent critical delay of his death for our sins.

Seems He could have served human-kind expeditiously by cutting to the chase and simply "breathed" Jesus into life...like Adam. :idunno:

freelight
January 16th, 2016, 03:52 AM
Too much expended effort here FL.

Likewise, the efforts of God pertaining to the virgin birth of his son and subsequent critical delay of his death for our sins.

Seems He could have served human-kind expeditiously by cutting to the chase and simply "breathed" Jesus into life...like Adam. :idunno:

But this negates the whole ordeal of the 'Incarnation', an essential aspect of Christian theology which is God becoming man, so that man maybe become merged with 'God', and so on.

Apple7
January 16th, 2016, 06:43 PM
In other places this 'YHWH' seems to claim NOT to be man or the son of man, even if you imagine this 'God' in anthropomorphic terms (such being but an 'image'). No other monotheists believes 'God' is a 'Man', nor can ever become one (since 'God' is in a class or category of being, like no other, one of a kind, NOT human, but pure Spirit, incorporeal, birthless/deathless, immortal, infinite), except Christians. Do note that.

Scripture?

Or just more of your unsubstantiated commentary....






Furthermore, this tribal war-monging 'god' does seem to be a 'warrior-deity' (or a 'man', being figurative language), since he ordered wholesale slaughtering of communities, men, women and children,...plus looting, so he does appear to be much like a 'man of war',.....I don't if this proves much though (beyond figurative language), except to have second thoughts on whether such a 'god' deserves worship.



You sound like the pot questioning the potter why he made you as he did.

Just accept God as He has revealed Himself to be in the Holy Bible....instead of attempting to make Him fit with your liberal worldview.

The very fact that the Biblical God does NOT fit with your ideals proves that your position is incorrect.





Neither does this one verse prove that Jesus (being a man) is 'God' (if that is anywhere assumed or correlated), since to do that is to superimpose and re-rig Jewish scriptures to support Christian interpretations and assumptions, which Orthodox Jews and rabbis reject, knowing their own scriptures quite well.

Again and again, you open your mouth and immediately insert your foot.

Had you bothered to read the prior context of this verse, then you would have seen for yourself that it refers to Malek Yahweh (i.e. The Son), the one who led Moses in the march across the parted sea.

The more you reply...the more you debase yourself...




Futhermore, Jesus who came to reveal 'God' as our Loving Heavenly Father, NEVER portrayed 'God' as a 'MAN' of war....but a benevolent Father, who makes his sun shine and his rain rain on the just and the unjust, the good and the evil, being no respector of persons. This is quite different than some war-mongering god worshipped by a few select tribes, among other tribes who worshipped their own brand of 'gods' as well.

Scripture?

Or just more of your unsubstantiated commentary....