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Robert Pate
January 24th, 2015, 07:23 AM
I am not a Lutheran nor do I hold to the teachings of the Lutheran church. I am a Christian and have no affiliation with any religious group. I do enjoy reading what others say and believe about Jesus Christ. Having studied the writings of some of what I believe to be the most prominent Christian scholars of our day, I always have one question when reading what they have said and that is "Where is what they have said leading me"?

If you read the writings of most religious denominations they do not lead you to Christ, they lead you into yourself who is a sinner. When you read "The Canons of Dort" or "The Council of Trent" you must ask yourself "Have I been predestinated, or am I doing enough good works to be saved"? In the light of the Gospel these questions are not important. What you should be asking yourself is the work of Jesus Christ sufficient to save me?

Martin Luther Comments on Free Will.

"Free-will is plainly a divine term, and can be applicable to none but the divine majesty only: for He alone "Doth, (as the Psalm sings) what he will in heaven and earth." (Ps.cxxxv. 6.) Whereas if it be ascribed unto men, it is not more properly ascribed, than the divinity of God himself would be ascribed unto them: which would be the greatest of all sacrilege. Wherefore it becomes Theologians to refrain from the use altogether, whenever they wish to speak of human ability, and leave it to the applied God only. And morover, to take this same term out of the mouths and speech of men; and thus to assert, as it were, for their God, that which belongs to His holy sacred name. . . .

But, if we do not like to leave out this term altogether, (which would be most safe and also most religious) we may nevertheless, with a good conscience teach, that it be used so far as to allow man a "Free-will" not in respect of those things which are above him, but in respect only of those things which are below him: that is he may be allowed to know, that he has as his goods and possessions the right of using, acting and omitting, according to his "Free-will;" although at the same time, that same "Free-will" is overuled by the Free-will of God alone, just as he pleases: but that, God-ward, or in things which pretain to salvation or damnation, he has no "Free-will," but is a captive slave, and servant, either to the will of God, or to the will of Satan".

- Bondage of the will, XXV1, pp. 76-79.

chrysostom
January 24th, 2015, 07:38 AM
or am I doing enough good works to be saved"? In the light of the Gospel these questions are not important. What you should be asking yourself is the work of Jesus Christ sufficient to save me?

the work of Jesus Christ
is
sufficient to redeem all of us
so
the real question
is


is our work sufficient to save us?

TulipBee
January 24th, 2015, 07:50 AM
https://michaeljeshurun.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/rip.jpg

Robert Pate
January 24th, 2015, 08:23 AM
the work of Jesus Christ
is
sufficient to redeem all of us
so
the real question
is


is our work sufficient to save us?


My motto is... Sinners cannot save sinners, nor can sinners save themselves.

chrysostom
January 24th, 2015, 08:25 AM
My motto is... Sinners cannot save sinners, nor can sinners save themselves.

do you see a difference between redeemed and saved?

Robert Pate
January 24th, 2015, 08:29 AM
It is foolish to believe that God has sent his only begotten Son into the world to atone for the sins of the world.

But he doesn't want some to know about it.

Robert Pate
January 24th, 2015, 08:33 AM
do you see a difference between redeemed and saved?


Redeemed, means that we have been bought back from the curse of sin.

Saved, means that because we have been redeemed we are saved.

In redeeming us Christ saves us. We had nothing, absolutly nothing to do with it. All we are required to do is to believe it.

chrysostom
January 24th, 2015, 08:54 AM
Redeemed, means that we have been bought back from the curse of sin.

Saved, means that because we have been redeemed we are saved.

In redeeming us Christ saves us. We had nothing, absolutly nothing to do with it. All we are required to do is to believe it.

has everyone been redeemed?

Robert Pate
January 24th, 2015, 09:13 AM
has everyone been redeemed?


In God's eyes, Jesus is the redeemer and savior of the whole world, 1 John 2:2.

In God's eyes, Jesus has defeated sin, death and the devil.

Salvation has been provided for all by the doing and the dying of Jesus Christ.

However, there will be a judgment. In the judgment you will either be found "In Christ" or you will be found in your sins. God can and will impute sin back to those who do not have faith,

chrysostom
January 24th, 2015, 10:23 AM
However, there will be a judgment. In the judgment you will either be found "In Christ" or you will be found in your sins.

I agree
so
how can someone say they are saved
if
they have not been judged?

Robert Pate
January 24th, 2015, 10:53 AM
I agree
so
how can someone say they are saved
if
they have not been judged?


It is very simple. If you have faith in the doing and the dying of Jesus you are saved.

See Romans 10:6-12.

"Whosoever that believes on him shall not be ashamed" Romans 10:11.

chrysostom
January 24th, 2015, 12:51 PM
It is very simple. If you have faith in the doing and the dying of Jesus you are saved.

See Romans 10:6-12.

"Whosoever that believes on him shall not be ashamed" Romans 10:11.

so in effect you are judging yourself

Robert Pate
January 24th, 2015, 01:41 PM
so in effect you are judging yourself


I am a sinner saved by the grace of God.

Paul said that if we judge ourselves, we shall not be judged, 1 Corinthians 11:31.

Have you judged yourself?

chrysostom
January 24th, 2015, 05:59 PM
I am a sinner saved by the grace of God.

Paul said that if we judge ourselves, we shall not be judged, 1 Corinthians 11:31.

Have you judged yourself?

no

how do you judge yourself?

Robert Pate
January 25th, 2015, 10:02 AM
no

how do you judge yourself?


It is very simple.

Are all of your thoughts pure and without sin?

Do you really love your neighbor as yourself?

Do you love those who oppose you, your enemies?

If you have been honest with yourself the answer is no.

chrysostom
January 25th, 2015, 10:25 AM
no

how do you judge yourself?


It is very simple.

Are all of your thoughts pure and without sin?

Do you really love your neighbor as yourself?

Do you love those who oppose you, your enemies?

If you have been honest with yourself the answer is no.

exactly

so how did you do?

Ask Mr. Religion
January 25th, 2015, 11:01 AM
It is very simple.

As Luther notes...

"...in things which pretain to salvation or damnation, he has no "Free-will," but is a captive slave, and servant, either to the will of God, or to the will of Satan"

We serve only one of two masters, God or the devil.

The lost serve the latter, as it is written, the lost...

- is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9);
- is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23);
- loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19);
- is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12);
- is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6);
- is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1);
- is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3);
- cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14); and
- is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

Clearly from the above sampling of Holy Writ, it is clear that the lost have no moral ability to seek after the righteousness of God. It is only when God the Holy Spirit regeneratively replaces their lost hearts of stone with one of flesh (Eze. 36:26) that the lost are given the moral ability to believe.

AMR

Robert Pate
January 25th, 2015, 11:28 AM
As Luther notes...

"...in things which pretain to salvation or damnation, he has no "Free-will," but is a captive slave, and servant, either to the will of God, or to the will of Satan"

We serve only one of two masters, God or the devil.

The lost serve the latter, as it is written, the lost...

- is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9);
- is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23);
- loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19);
- is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12);
- is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6);
- is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1);
- is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3);
- cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14); and
- is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

Clearly from the above sampling of Holy Writ, it is clear that the lost have no moral ability to seek after the righteousness of God. It is only when God the Holy Spirit regeneratively replaces their lost hearts of stone with one of flesh (Eze. 36:26) that the lost are given the moral ability to believe.

AMR


God did not abandon fallen humanity as you seem to think.

Yes, man is a depraved sinner, but God has not abandoned him.

This is why he sent Jesus into the world. "For God so loved fallen man (the world) that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16.

God has done all that he could do to save fallen humanity. However, there is one thing that God will not do, he will not force anyone to believe upon his Son. No, if you want to be saved, by your own free will you will have to call on Christ to save you.

"WHOSOEVER that calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

You apparently have never done that. Instead you want to believe that salvation has been appointed to you before the foundation of the world. Therefore, you don't really need Jesus Christ and his Gospel. You think that you are exempt from coming to Christ as a repentant sinner.

On the day of Pentecost, they heard the Gospel, they believed the Gospel and they were saved, Acts 2:41.

"So then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" Romans 10:17.

Robert Pate
January 25th, 2015, 11:33 AM
exactly

so how did you do?

I judged myself and found that I fall short of what is required. I desperately need Christ as my savior.

chrysostom
January 25th, 2015, 11:34 AM
We serve only one of two masters, God or the devil.



give me a break

any married person with a job serves at least three

chrysostom
January 25th, 2015, 11:35 AM
I judged myself and found that I fall short of what is required. I desperately need Christ as my savior.

what did you judge?

what you believe?
or
what you do?

Robert Pate
January 25th, 2015, 11:39 AM
what did you judge?

what you believe?
or
what you do?

Because the law is spiritual and is a discerner of the thoughts and the intent of the heart, Hebrews 4:12.

It is everything that I think and do.

chrysostom
January 25th, 2015, 11:44 AM
Because the law is spiritual and is a discerner of the thoughts and the intent of the heart, Hebrews 4:12.

It is everything that I think and do.

so what if your beliefs are not consistent with what you do?

which is more telling?

beloved57
January 25th, 2015, 12:00 PM
God did not abandon fallen humanity as you seem to think.

Yes, man is a depraved sinner, but God has not abandoned him.

This is why he sent Jesus into the world. "For God so loved fallen man (the world) that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16.

God has done all that he could do to save fallen humanity. However, there is one thing that God will not do, he will not force anyone to believe upon his Son. No, if you want to be saved, by your own free will you will have to call on Christ to save you.

"WHOSOEVER that calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

You apparently have never done that. Instead you want to believe that salvation has been appointed to you before the foundation of the world. Therefore, you don't really need Jesus Christ and his Gospel. You think that you are exempt from coming to Christ as a repentant sinner.

On the day of Pentecost, they heard the Gospel, they believed the Gospel and they were saved, Acts 2:41.

"So then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" Romans 10:17.
Promoting the false gospel of Salvation by works, by what a person does, which means what Christ did alone was not enough to save you !

Robert Pate
January 26th, 2015, 09:28 AM
so what if your beliefs are not consistent with what you do?

which is more telling?


I believe what Paul said, "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23.

If you are going to be saved you would do well to look for a way that is totally and completely outside of yourself.

chrysostom
January 27th, 2015, 05:36 AM
I believe what Paul said, "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23.

If you are going to be saved you would do well to look for a way that is totally and completely outside of yourself.

we were talking about judging yourself
do you judge your beliefs?
do you judge your actions?
what if they are not consistent?

beloved57
January 27th, 2015, 06:29 AM
I believe what Paul said, "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23.

If you are going to be saved you would do well to look for a way that is totally and completely outside of yourself.

You teach that a person is saved by what they do, a action they perform from within themselves ! You are being the hypocrit !

Robert Pate
January 27th, 2015, 09:47 AM
You teach that a person is saved by what they do, a action they perform from within themselves ! You are being the hypocrit !


You need to respond to Christ and his Gospel so that you can be saved.

No responce is a responce.

You responded to John Calivin the heretic, but you will not respond to Christ and his Gospel.

Maybe you deserve to go to hell.

beloved57
January 27th, 2015, 11:20 AM
You need to respond to Christ and his Gospel so that you can be saved.

No responce is a responce.

You responded to John Calivin the heretic, but you will not respond to Christ and his Gospel.

Maybe you deserve to go to hell.

Scorning the Gospel and promoting salvation by works, by responding, that is an act of man , therefore a work ! The word work ergon means:


I.business, employment, that which any one is occupied

A.that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking



II.any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind


III.an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

Now does responding fit into one of these things ? Its an reaction with action !

chrysostom
January 27th, 2015, 12:06 PM
Maybe you deserve to go to hell.

so you judge others as well as yourself

chrysostom
January 27th, 2015, 12:07 PM
we were talking about judging yourself
do you judge your beliefs?
do you judge your actions?
what if they are not consistent?




No responce is a responce.



so your response to me is a no response?

Ask Mr. Religion
January 27th, 2015, 02:48 PM
No, if you want to be saved, by your own free will you will have to call on Christ to save you.

Why you, Robert, and not your neighbor?
What was it about you that your neighbor did not possess?

Explain.

AMR

Robert Pate
January 27th, 2015, 04:27 PM
so your response to me is a no response?


What my responce is to you, or what your responce is to me, is of little importance.

However, how you respond to Christ and his Gospel will determine where you will spend eternity.

Robert Pate
January 27th, 2015, 04:28 PM
Why you, Robert, and not your neighbor?
What was it about you that your neighbor did not possess?

Explain.

AMR

I don't have the slightest idea of what you are talking about.

beloved57
January 27th, 2015, 04:40 PM
What my responce is to you, or what your responce is to me, is of little importance.

However, how you respond to Christ and his Gospel will determine where you will spend eternity.

Salvation by works, by what a man does ! Teaching that its what man does that determines where he spends eternity, and not the Death of Christ, Blasphemy !

Robert Pate
January 27th, 2015, 05:08 PM
Salvation by works, by what a man does ! Teaching that its what man does that determines where he spends eternity, and not the Death of Christ, Blasphemy !

You have chosen not to respond to Christ and his Gospel.

Instead you want to believe that God has appointed you to salvation, without Jesus Christ and his Gospel.

Please remember that this Christian tried to warn you.

beloved57
January 27th, 2015, 05:25 PM
You have chosen not to respond to Christ and his Gospel.

Instead you want to believe that God has appointed you to salvation, without Jesus Christ and his Gospel.

Please remember that this Christian tried to warn you.
Since when did you believe the Gospel ? Also you are teaching salvation by works, by what a person does !

Nanja
January 27th, 2015, 06:17 PM
Since when did you believe the Gospel ? Also you are teaching salvation by works, by what a person does !


Pate insists that "responding" is a necessary "something" one must do to become saved.
But scripture says that we are not saved by any work that we do Eph. 2:8-9: Greek, ergon:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G2041&t=KJV

He has also been noted to say: "Take the step and get saved."
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101401#3

So, yes. It is obvious that he believes the lie that one must do works to become saved!


beloved57

Salvation by works, by what a man does ! Teaching that its what man does that determines where he spends eternity, and not the Death of Christ, Blasphemy !


Blasphemy indeed!

~~~~~

Robert Pate
January 27th, 2015, 09:27 PM
Pate insists that "responding" is a necessary "something" one must do to become saved.
But scripture says that we are not saved by any work that we do Eph. 2:8-9: Greek, ergon:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G2041&t=KJV

He has also been noted to say: "Take the step and get saved."
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101401#3

So, yes. It is obvious that he believes the lie that one must do works to become saved!


beloved57



Blasphemy indeed!

~~~~~


Faith is not really a work.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that faith is a work that saves.

Jesus is the savior, not our works or our faith.

The Gospel is such a great thing that God has done in Jesus Christ to not respond to it is to sentence yourself to eternal damnation.

Which you have already done.

Town Heretic
January 27th, 2015, 10:35 PM
I don't have the slightest idea of what you are talking about.
It's the question that stops a great many conversation about merit and grace.

One man stands up in a Church at the alter call and rushes toward salvation and grace. The fellow who went with him scoffs and turns away.

Why? What distinguishes between the two men and their disparate acts of will? Why is it that some men, like Lewis, can consider God and move toward Him and others can consider the question and turn away?

beloved57
January 28th, 2015, 12:08 AM
Faith is not really a work.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that faith is a work that saves.

Jesus is the savior, not our works or our faith.

The Gospel is such a great thing that God has done in Jesus Christ to not respond to it is to sentence yourself to eternal damnation.

Which you have already done.

Faith is a work, a work of the Law Matt 23:23 and you don't believe the Gospel anyway !

Robert Pate
January 28th, 2015, 01:32 PM
It's the question that stops a great many conversation about merit and grace.

One man stands up in a Church at the alter call and rushes toward salvation and grace. The fellow who went with him scoffs and turns away.

Why? What distinguishes between the two men and their disparate acts of will? Why is it that some men, like Lewis, can consider God and move toward Him and others can consider the question and turn away?


Its a pride thing.

Its a humbling thing to confess that you are a needy sinner and call on Christ to save you.

Men like to think that they can participate in their own salvation.

Ask Mr. Religion
January 28th, 2015, 02:19 PM
Its a pride thing.

Its a humbling thing to confess that you are a needy sinner and call on Christ to save you.

Men like to think that they can participate in their own salvation.
So you were more humble and less prideful than your neighbor who does not see the need to call upon the Lord?

If you do not think you participated in your salvation, how was it wrought for you then?

AMR

bybee
January 28th, 2015, 02:46 PM
It's the question that stops a great many conversation about merit and grace.

One man stands up in a Church at the alter call and rushes toward salvation and grace. The fellow who went with him scoffs and turns away.

Why? What distinguishes between the two men and their disparate acts of will? Why is it that some men, like Lewis, can consider God and move toward Him and others can consider the question and turn away?

I have no answers, only thanksgiving for the one and prayers for the other!
Well said... as usual!

DAN P
January 28th, 2015, 04:40 PM
So you were more humble and less prideful than your neighbor who does not see the need to call upon the Lord?

If you do not think you participated in your salvation, how was it wrought for you then?

AMR


Hi , AMR , and how were you saved , under Covenant theology , if that is what you believe in ??

How did you participate ??

Give a verse !!

dan p

TulipBee
January 28th, 2015, 04:47 PM
Hi , AMR , and how were you saved , under Covenant theology , if that is what you believe in ??

How did you participate ??

Give a verse !!

dan p

You mean "how did you cooperate?"

Robert Pate
January 28th, 2015, 05:50 PM
So you were more humble and less prideful than your neighbor who does not see the need to call upon the Lord?

If you do not think you participated in your salvation, how was it wrought for you then?

AMR


Jesus Christ in my name and on my behalf, has offered to God the Father all that was needed for my salvation.

Ask Mr. Religion
January 28th, 2015, 06:05 PM
Its a pride thing.

Its a humbling thing to confess that you are a needy sinner and call on Christ to save you.

Men like to think that they can participate in their own salvation.


So you were more humble and less prideful than your neighbor who does not see the need to call upon the Lord?

If you do not think you participated in your salvation, how was it wrought for you then?

AMR


Jesus Christ in my name and on my behalf, has offered to God the Father all that was needed for my salvation.
Robert,

What do you mean here exactly? Earlier you noted that humility and less pride were factors in your salvation in that you were able to call upon the Lord. Yet, you also state "men like to think they can participate in their own salvation". How do you reconcile these statements?

Using your own words above, I would ask why did not Jesus Christ in your neighbor's name on his behalf, offer to God the Father all that was needed for your neighbor's salvation? After all, you state Jesus Christ did this for you and you apparently affirmed above you did not participate in your own salvation. What then lies behind you being chosen and not your neighbor?

I am sincerely interested in understanding your view more fully with the four questions above.

AMR

Robert Pate
January 28th, 2015, 06:20 PM
Robert,

What do you mean here exactly? Earlier you noted that humility and less pride were factors in your salvation in that you were able to call upon the Lord. Yet, you also state "men like to think they can participate in their own salvation". How do you reconcile these statements?

Using your own words above, I would ask why did not Jesus Christ in your neighbor's name on his behalf, offer to God the Father all that was needed for your neighbor's salvation? After all, you state Jesus Christ did this for you and you apparently affirmed above you did not participate in your own salvation. What then lies behind you being chosen and not your neighbor?

I am sincerely interested in understanding your view more fully with the four questions above.

AMR


No one is chosen. Salvation is offered to all as a free gift from God, Ephesians 2:8.

If you want to be saved you will have to come to Christ as a repentant sinner and ask Christ to save you.

"Whosoever that calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

Jesus Christ as our representative provides salvation for all. But its not yours if you don't receive it.

"But as many as received him, to them gave he the power to become the Sons of God, even to them that believe upon his name" John 1:12.

Did you get that? Salvation is GIVEN not imposed, to all who do nothing more that believe upon his name.

DAN P
January 28th, 2015, 07:29 PM
You mean "how did you cooperate?"


Hi , and AMR did not respond as to my question !

Since he is a believer in a Covenant / Diatheke , I want to know what COVENANT /DIATHEKE he is talking about and how Gentiles can be saved by a Covenant !!

I wonder when he will answer , so I will not hold my breath !!

He might be on the phone with R C Spourl !!

dan p

bybee
January 28th, 2015, 08:12 PM
Hi , and AMR did not respond as to my question !

Since he is a believer in a Covenant / Diatheke , I want to know what COVENANT /DIATHEKE he is talking about and how Gentiles can be saved by a Covenant !!

I wonder when he will answer , so I will not hold my breath !!

Hr might be on the phone with R C Spourl !!

dan p

Never underestimate AMR! He is one of the wisest men who post on this site!
He knows that my theology is different on some points from his but we are both Christians and I admire him greatly.

Ask Mr. Religion
January 28th, 2015, 11:27 PM
No one is chosen. Salvation is offered to all as a free gift from God, Ephesians 2:8.

If you want to be saved you will have to come to Christ as a repentant sinner and ask Christ to save you.

"Whosoever that calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

Jesus Christ as our representative provides salvation for all. But its not yours if you don't receive it.

"But as many as received him, to them gave he the power to become the Sons of God, even to them that believe upon his name" John 1:12.

Did you get that? Salvation is GIVEN not imposed, to all who do nothing more that believe upon his name.

Robert,

Thank you for responding. I am really trying to understand your view.

Earlier you noted (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4201259#post4201259) that humility and less pride were factors in your salvation in that you were able to call upon the Lord. Yet, you also state (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4201259#post4201259) "men like to think they can participate in their own salvation". How do you reconcile these statements?

Using your own words earlier, I would ask why did not Jesus Christ in your neighbor's name on his behalf, offer to God the Father all that was needed for your neighbor's salvation? After all, you state Jesus Christ did this for you and you apparently affirmed above you did not participate in your own salvation. What then lies behind you being chosen and not your neighbor?

What, in your opinion, is your direct answer to my questions?

Now you state:

"If you want to be saved you will have to come to Christ as a repentant sinner and ask Christ to save you."

"Salvation is GIVEN not imposed, to all who do nothing more that believe upon his name."

From the statements above, what do you mean by "Men like to think that they can participate in their own salvation"? Are you not participating in your own salvation if you "have to come to Christ" or
"do nothing more than believe upon his name"? What is this coming and doing you imply here?

What was it about you that made you "come to Christ" versus the other person who fails to do so? Is your answer the matters of pride and humility you spoke of here (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4201259#post4201259)? Or, is your answer "I chose rightly and the other person did not?"

AMR

Ask Mr. Religion
January 28th, 2015, 11:43 PM
Hi , AMR , and how were you saved..?
Dan P,

Giving you the benefit of the doubt, I assume your question is not some tu quoque tactic so I have not ignored your question, which I will happily answer soon.

I would really like to bottom out with Robert on his views beforehand, as it is refreshing to find someone willing to answer some direct questions on the topic.

AMR

chrysostom
January 29th, 2015, 04:51 AM
Hi , AMR , and how were you saved ,


Dan P,

Giving you the benefit of the doubt, I assume your question is not some tu quoque tactic so I have not ignored your question, which I will happily answer soon.

I would really like to bottom out with Robert on his views beforehand, as it is refreshing to find someone willing to answer some direct questions on the topic.

AMR

it will be even more refreshing when you answer the question

TulipBee
January 29th, 2015, 07:02 AM
Dan P,

Giving you the benefit of the doubt, I assume your question is not some tu quoque tactic so I have not ignored your question, which I will happily answer soon.

I would really like to bottom out with Robert on his views beforehand, as it is refreshing to find someone willing to answer some direct questions on the topic.

AMR

There are no bottoms in reprobates. They are continously drowning in their own theologies in the bottomless pits.

http://www.listen2unclejay.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/normal_belize_bluehole.jpg

chrysostom
January 29th, 2015, 07:04 AM
There are no bottoms in reprobates. They are continously drowning in their own theologies in the bottomless pits.


can you answer the question?

how were you saved?

TulipBee
January 29th, 2015, 07:11 AM
Hi , and AMR did not respond as to my question !

Since he is a believer in a Covenant / Diatheke , I want to know what COVENANT /DIATHEKE he is talking about and how Gentiles can be saved by a Covenant !!

I wonder when he will answer , so I will not hold my breath !!

Hr might be on the phone with R C Spourl !!

dan p

There are no answers in man made arminian questions.
Only a loop.
Pate and his suckers loops in his theology when backed into a corner.
they run out of text proofs and then defaults back to the beginning of the loop and tries agian on new suckers.

Reprobates lives on loopy lane

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110722053211/toontown/images/9/98/Loopy_Lane_Tunnel.jpg

Robert Pate
January 29th, 2015, 10:30 AM
Robert,

Thank you for responding. I am really trying to understand your view.

Earlier you noted (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4201259#post4201259) that humility and less pride were factors in your salvation in that you were able to call upon the Lord. Yet, you also state (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4201259#post4201259) "men like to think they can participate in their own salvation". How do you reconcile these statements?

Using your own words earlier, I would ask why did not Jesus Christ in your neighbor's name on his behalf, offer to God the Father all that was needed for your neighbor's salvation? After all, you state Jesus Christ did this for you and you apparently affirmed above you did not participate in your own salvation. What then lies behind you being chosen and not your neighbor?

What, in your opinion, is your direct answer to my questions?

Now you state:

"If you want to be saved you will have to come to Christ as a repentant sinner and ask Christ to save you."

"Salvation is GIVEN not imposed, to all who do nothing more that believe upon his name."

From the statements above, what do you mean by "Men like to think that they can participate in their own salvation"? Are you not participating in your own salvation if you "have to come to Christ" or
"do nothing more than believe upon his name"? What is this coming and doing you imply here?

What was it about you that made you "come to Christ" versus the other person who fails to do so? Is your answer the matters of pride and humility you spoke of here (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4201259#post4201259)? Or, is your answer "I chose rightly and the other person did not?"

AMR



It is quite obvious that you do not believe in salvation by grace through faith.

You cannot believe the Gospel so your only hope is to be appointed salvation. Which God does not do. If you want to be saved you will have to come to Christ as a repentant sinner.

This is what Paul meant when he said... "Whosoever that calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

All of the questions that you ask are found in the scriptures. But instead of reading the Bible you read The Canons of Dort or something else that supports Calvinism.

If you had the Holy Spirit you would know that Christ and Christ alone is our savior and that it is by faith in him that we are saved.

Ask Mr. Religion
January 29th, 2015, 01:19 PM
It is quite obvious that you do not believe in salvation by grace through faith.

You cannot believe the Gospel so your only hope is to be appointed salvation. Which God does not do. If you want to be saved you will have to come to Christ as a repentant sinner.

This is what Paul meant when he said... "Whosoever that calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

All of the questions that you ask are found in the scriptures. But instead of reading the Bible you read The Canons of Dort or something else that supports Calvinism.

If you had the Holy Spirit you would know that Christ and Christ alone is our savior and that it is by faith in him that we are saved.Robert,

It would have been helpful to all had you answered my questions directly. They were not that difficult or you could have just answered "I do not know how I came to be saved." Your response above is evasive and telling.

For example,

What was it about you that made you "come to Christ" versus the other person who fails to do so? Is your answer the matters of pride and humility you spoke of here (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4201259#post4201259)? Or, is your answer "I chose rightly and the other person did not?"

AMR

beloved57
January 29th, 2015, 01:26 PM
It is quite obvious that you do not believe in salvation by grace through faith.

You cannot believe the Gospel so your only hope is to be appointed salvation. Which God does not do. If you want to be saved you will have to come to Christ as a repentant sinner.

This is what Paul meant when he said... "Whosoever that calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

All of the questions that you ask are found in the scriptures. But instead of reading the Bible you read The Canons of Dort or something else that supports Calvinism.

If you had the Holy Spirit you would know that Christ and Christ alone is our savior and that it is by faith in him that we are saved.

One has to be saved in order to call upon the name of the Lord ! That is an act of Faith, of believing Rom 10:14

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Those in the flesh cannot believe because , that pleases God Heb 11:6, and those in the flesh cannot please God Rom 8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

So quite frankly Rom 10:13 is not anyone unregenerated and still in the flesh !:nono:

Ask Mr. Religion
January 29th, 2015, 02:21 PM
Hi , AMR , and how were you saved


Dan P,

As a lost person under the wrath of God, I possessed no moral ability to participate in my own salvation. I was lost, in other words, I was

- deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9);
- full of evil (Mark 7:21-23);
- loved darkness rather than light (John 3:19);
- unrighteous, did not understand, did not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12);
- helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6);
- dead in my trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1);
- by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3);
- could not understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14); and
- a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

In other words, my inability to submit to God and do good was total (Romans 8:7-8; Ephesians 2:1; 2 Corinthians 4:4-6). My rebellion was wholly deserving of eternal punishment (2 Thessalonians 1:6-9; Matthew 5:29-30; 10:28; 13:49-50; 18:8-9; 25:46; Rev. 14:9-11; 20:10).

At the age of fourteen, I had heard about a local Baptist tent revival hosted by one Rev. Walter St. Claire in Kingsport, Tennessee. I was very curious about what went on at these revivals, so I hitchhiked to the meetings each night and to see Rev. St. Claire bring down fire and brimstone among those in attendance. Each night when I got home I would open my Bible to learn more about what I had heard. The things I had heard were hard sayings, "faith alone", "grace alone", "propitiation". In the days of no internet, all I had was my Grandmother's huge family Bible, so I would turn its pages hoping to understand some small part of what I had heard earlier that evening.

On the fourth of the five nights Rev. St. Claire was in town I returned home, again studying what I had heard. On this night, what I was reading from that evening's sermon, "Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold, the hour is at hand..." (Matthew 26:45), seemed to jump off the page. Yes! I was like the sleeping disciples, who had become so "comfortable" with the physical Lord they had been walking with, that I did not grasp Who Jesus really was and why He was sent by God. Now no tears came, no crying out for mercy, but only the washing over me a sense of tremendous peace as I prayed for God to grant someone unworthy like me His saving grace. That regenerative moment in my life set me on a journey in my walk of faith that still continues.

On that night, for God's own good purposes and glory, without considering anything He foresaw I had or may do (no foreseen personal merit), God took the initiative according to His eternal decree and plan for realization of His decree. God regeneratively replaced my "heart of stone" with "one of flesh" (Eze. 36:26) and I was simultaneously and irresistibly given the moral ability of belief in the Good News that was preached (i.e., the ordinary means of regeneration), an ability I did not possess beforehand. My ability to believe, previously lost to all Adam's progeny with his fall in the Garden, was such that I could not be inclined other than to believe. Indeed, as but and undeserving, repentant sinner, at the moment of my "re-birth" (regeneration) the greatest inclinations of my free will were the laying hold of the righteousness of Christ's works— His active and passive obedience, on my and all those on behalf of whom He came to actually (not possibly) redeem.

My new principle of life — my love for and trust of my Savior, Jesus Christ, fully God and fully man in one Person — flows from my new birth, not vice versa. I believe this is clearly taught in John 3:3 wherein our Lord tells us we cannot even see the kingdom of God unless we are first born again. If we cannot see the kingdom, we certainly cannot enter it; thus, regeneration precedes its fruit—faith—in some sort of logical manner. In regenerating my heart, the efficacious regenerative grace of the Holy Spirit opened my eyes, making me irresistibly able and thusly, inclined to obey in faith.

I do not forget that God does not look at my faith or knowledge as the ground of my justification but rather the ground of my justification is the finished work of Christ. Faith is the alone by which I, a sinner, cling to Christ and am now justified, solely by Christ's active and passive obedient works on my behalf and for others of whom Jesus came to render their salvation to actually deliver (not possibly deliver) them from the curse of the law, and from the power of sin.

In other words, my faith is the instrument, not the cause, which belongs to Christ alone, of my justification before God the Father.

My new life that came when the quickening power of the Holy Spirit transformed my heart did not eradicate sin’s presence from my life. Even as regenerated to a new life, after my heart was redirected towards the Savior, I still have great capacity for evil. While the power of sin to compel me to do evil is now broken, my ability to sin remains (Rom. 7:4–25), for I will never escape the noetic effects of sin until coming into my glory.

Therefore, I must do all that I can to put to death the lusts of my flesh. Most thankfully, my Lord is the author of my faith hence, He is also the finisher (Heb. 12:2) such that I will persevere to the very end and to my ultimate glory. Mine is an alien righteousness, one instilled from outside myself, that of Christ's (1 Corinthians 1:30). I always remember that regeneration was only the beginning of my walk, thus I am less surprised at my struggles with temptation and become more vigilant in mortifying my flesh.

for what He did for us,
AMR

Bright Raven
January 29th, 2015, 02:21 PM
One has to be saved in order to call upon the name of the Lord ! That is an act of Faith, of believing Rom 10:14

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Those in the flesh cannot believe because , that pleases God Heb 11:6, and those in the flesh cannot please God Rom 8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

So quite frankly Rom 10:13 is not anyone unregenerated and still in the flesh !:nono:

I thought you said that believing was a work. Verse 14 says that you have to believe.

Robert Pate
January 29th, 2015, 02:39 PM
Dan P,

As a lost person under the wrath of God, I possessed no moral ability to participate in my own salvation. I was lost, in other words, I was

- deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9);
- full of evil (Mark 7:21-23);
- loved darkness rather than light (John 3:19);
- unrighteous, did not understand, did not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12);
- helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6);
- dead in my trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1);
- by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3);
- could not understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14); and
- a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

For His own good purposes and glory, without considering anything He foresaw I had or may do (no foreseen merit), God took the initiative. God regeneratively replaced my "heart of stone" with "one of flesh" (Eze. 36:26) and I was simultaneously and irresistibly given the moral ability of belief, an ability I did not possess beforehand.

My new life — my love for and trust of my Savior, Jesus Christ, fully God and fully man in one Person — flows from the new birth, not vice versa. I believe this is clearly taught in John 3:3 wherein our Lord tells us we cannot even see the kingdom of God unless we are first born again. If we cannot see the kingdom, we certainly cannot enter it; thus, regeneration precedes faith in some sort of logical manner. In regenerating my heart, the Holy Spirit opened my eyes, making me irresistibly able to obey in faith.

I never forget that God does not look at my faith or knowledge as the ground of my justification but rather the ground of my justification is the finished work of Christ. Faith is the alone by which I, a sinner, cling to Christ and am now justified, solely by Christ's active and passive obedient works on my behalf. In other words, my faith is the instrument, not the cause of my justification before God the Father.

My new life that came when the quickening power of the Holy Spirit transformed my heart did not eradicate sin’s presence from my life. Even as regenerated to a new life, after my heart was redirected towards the Savior, I still have great capacity for evil. While the power of sin to compel me to do evil is now broken, my ability to sin remains (Rom. 7:4–25).

Therefore, I must do all that I can to put to death the lusts of my flesh. Most thankfully, God is the author of my faith, hence, He is also the finisher such that I will persevere to the very end and to my ultimate glory. Mine is an alien righteousness, one instilled from outside myself, that of Christ's (1 Corinthians 1:30). I always remember that regeneration was only the beginning of my walk, thus I am less surprised at my struggles with temptation and become more vigilant in mortifying my flesh.

for what He did for us,
AMR


HOGWASH!

No one is born again or becomes a Christian without hearing and believing the Gospel.

On the day of Pentecost when the Gospel first came into the world in the power of the Holy Spirit they received Peter's Gospel and were born again, Acts 2:38-41.

The Holy Spirit is only given to those who hear and believe the Gospel, "Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law (because you did something or because you became something) or was it by the hearing of faith" (hearing and believing the Gospel) Galatians 3:2.

How can you go on and on about being saved and never mention the Gospel or what Christ did to save you? If you had the Holy Spirit which you don't, you would glorify Christ with the Gospel.

"For he shall not speak of himself. He shall glorify me" John 16:13, 14. All you talk about is yourself and your Calvinist doctrine.

Nanja
January 29th, 2015, 02:55 PM
I thought you said that believing was a work. Verse 14 says that you have to believe.


They must first be Born of the Spirit to believe on Christ.

Faith / belief is a Fruit Gal. 5:22 KJV of the Spirit given in the New Birth.

Only then can they do good works and please God,
because they are no longer in the flesh, but in the Spirit Rom. 8:9.

~~~~~

beloved57
January 29th, 2015, 02:58 PM
Dan P,

As a lost person under the wrath of God, I possessed no moral ability to participate in my own salvation. I was lost, in other words, I was

- deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9);
- full of evil (Mark 7:21-23);
- loved darkness rather than light (John 3:19);
- unrighteous, did not understand, did not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12);
- helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6);
- dead in my trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1);
- by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3);
- could not understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14); and
- a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

For His own good purposes and glory, without considering anything He foresaw I had or may do (no foreseen merit), God took the initiative. God regeneratively replaced my "heart of stone" with "one of flesh" (Eze. 36:26) and I was simultaneously and irresistibly given the moral ability of belief, an ability I did not possess beforehand.

My new life — my love for and trust of my Savior, Jesus Christ, fully God and fully man in one Person — flows from the new birth, not vice versa. I believe this is clearly taught in John 3:3 wherein our Lord tells us we cannot even see the kingdom of God unless we are first born again. If we cannot see the kingdom, we certainly cannot enter it; thus, regeneration precedes faith in some sort of logical manner. In regenerating my heart, the Holy Spirit opened my eyes, making me irresistibly able to obey in faith.

I never forget that God does not look at my faith or knowledge as the ground of my justification but rather the ground of my justification is the finished work of Christ. Faith is the alone by which I, a sinner, cling to Christ and am now justified, solely by Christ's active and passive obedient works on my behalf. In other words, my faith is the instrument, not the cause of my justification before God the Father.

My new life that came when the quickening power of the Holy Spirit transformed my heart did not eradicate sin’s presence from my life. Even as regenerated to a new life, after my heart was redirected towards the Savior, I still have great capacity for evil. While the power of sin to compel me to do evil is now broken, my ability to sin remains (Rom. 7:4–25).

Therefore, I must do all that I can to put to death the lusts of my flesh. Most thankfully, God is the author of my faith, hence, He is also the finisher such that I will persevere to the very end and to my ultimate glory. Mine is an alien righteousness, one instilled from outside myself, that of Christ's (1 Corinthians 1:30). I always remember that regeneration was only the beginning of my walk, thus I am less surprised at my struggles with temptation and become more vigilant in mortifying my flesh.

for what He did for us,
AMR

How can one for whom Christ died for, and propitated God's wrath for, ever be under God's wrath ? That is a contradiction !

Nanja
January 29th, 2015, 03:18 PM
HOGWASH!

No one is born again or becomes a Christian without hearing and believing the Gospel.

False teaching!

Before a person can hear and believe the Gospel, which is Spiritual,
he must first be made Spiritually alive; Born of God.

John 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words:
ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

~~~~~

Ask Mr. Religion
January 29th, 2015, 03:25 PM
How can one for whom Christ died for, and propitated God's wrath for, ever be under God's wrath ? That is a contradiction !
Unless you are one of those "eternal justification" erroneous advocates, advocating no evangelism is needed as the elect will just be converted no matter what the church does, the Apostle Paul answers this question in Eph 2:1:

1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Even the elect are by nature children of wrath even as others. The elect are under the same condemnation until the application of Christ's person and work by virtue of the Holy Spirit's work, as per the Westminster Confession of Faith:

WCF (http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/) 11:4 God did, from all eternity, decree to justify all the elect, and Christ did, in the fulness of time, die for their sins, and rise again for their justification: nevertheless, they are not justified, until the Holy Spirit doth, in due time, actually apply Christ unto them.

Until justified (fulness of time), the elect are under condemnation. In other words, there is a difference between saying that "election is salvation" and "election is unto salvation." The historic Reformed position is that election is unto salvation. God decrees to save the elect in eternity, but their salvation is accomplished and applied in time, before which time (as Eph 2 makes clear) they are "by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

See Calvin:


John Calvin: Therefore all of us, who have descended from impure seed, are born infected with the contagion of sin. In fact, before we saw the light of this life we were soiled and spotted in God´s sight.

Institutes of the Christian Religion, Vol. 1, ed. John T. McNeill and trans. Ford Lewis Battles, (Philadelphia: The Westminster Press, reprinted 1977), Book II.1.5, p. 248.

John Calvin: 10. The Elect before their call. There is no "œseed of election"ť The elect are gathered into Christ´s flock by a call not immediately at birth, and not all at the same time, but according as it pleases God to dispense his grace to them. But before they are gathered unto that supreme Shepherd, they wander scattered in the wilderness common to all; and they do not differ at all from others except that they are protected by God´s especial mercy from rushing headlong into the final ruin of death. If you look upon them, you will see Adam´s offspring, who savor of the common corruption of the mass. The fact that they are not carried to utter and even desperate impiety is not due to any innate goodness of theirs but because the eye of God watches over their safety and his hand is outstretched to them!

For those who imagine that some sort of seed of election was sown in them from birth itself, and that by its power they have always been inclined to piety and the fear of God, are not supported by Scriptural authority and are refuted by experience itself. They put forward a few examples by which to prove that the elect even before illumination were not strangers to religion: Paul lived a blameless life as a Pharisee [Philippians 3:5-6]; Cornelius, with alms and prayers, was acceptable to God [Acts 10:2], and the like, if any. As for Paul, we grant them their point; in Cornelius, we say they are deceived. For it appears that he was then already enlightened and regenerated, so that he lacked nothing but a clear revelation of the gospel. But what will they wring out of these few examples? That all the elect are always endowed with the spirit of piety? No more than if someone"”by showing the uprightness of Aristides, Socrates, Xenocrates, Scipio, Curius, Camillus, and others"”infers from it that all who are forsaken in the darkness of idolatry were earnest seekers of holiness and purity. Indeed, Scripture openly disclaims them in more than one place.

This state before regeneration described by Paul in his letter to the Ephesians shows no grain of this seed. "œYou were dead,"ť he says, "œthrough the trespasses and sins in which you... walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the air, who is now at work in his disobedient sons. Among these we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of the flesh and of the mind. So we were by nature children of wrath, like the rest."ť [Ephesians 2:1-3, abbr.] Again: "œRemember that... you were once without hope, and lacking God in the world."ť [Ephesians 2:12 p.] Likewise: You were once darkness but are now light in the Lord; walk as children of light."ť [Ephesians 5:8-9.]

But they would perhaps like this to be referred to ignorance of the true God in which, as they do not deny, the elect are held before they are called. Yet this would be shameless calumny, since he draws the inference that they ought no longer to lie [Ephesians 4:25] or steal [Ephesians 4:28]. But what answer will they make to the other passages? Such as that in the letter to the Corinthians, where, after declaring that "œneither fornicators nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor the effeminate, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor the greedy, will inherit the Kingdom of God"ť [1 Corinthians 6:9-10], he immediately adds that they were guilty of those very transgressions before they knew Christ but are now washed with his blood and freed by the Spirit [1 Corinthians 9:11]. Likewise, another passage, in the letter to the Romans: "œJust as you... yielded your members as slaves to impurity and to greater iniquity upon iniquity, so now yield your members in bondage to righteousness"ť [1 Corinthians 6:19, cf. Vg.]. "œFor what fruit did you get from those things at which you now rightly blush?"ť [1 Corinthians 6:21 p.].

Institutes of the Christian Religion, Vol. 2, ed. John T. McNeill and trans. Ford Lewis Battles, (Philadelphia: The Westminster Press, reprinted 1977), Book III.24.10, pp. 976-977.


B57, I know you are an odd duck, given to extreme hyper-Calvinism, but the Reformed tradition stands against you. I say this only to note that your vocal views, while sometimes accurate, are more often beyond the bounds of orthodoxy. Have you spoken with your Pastor about your views? What was his counsel?

AMR

Robert Pate
January 29th, 2015, 03:25 PM
They must first be Born of the Spirit to believe on Christ.

Faith / belief is a Fruit Gal. 5:22 KJV of the Spirit given in the New Birth.

Only then can they do good works and please God,
because they are no longer in the flesh, but in the Spirit Rom. 8:9.

~~~~~


You cannot be born again without hearing and believing the Gospel, Galatians 3:2.

beloved57
January 29th, 2015, 03:29 PM
Unless you are one of those "eternal justification" erroneous advocates, the Apostle Paul answers this question in Eph 2:1:

1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Even the elect are by nature children of wrath even as others. The elect are under the same condemnation until the application of Christ's person and work by virtue of the Holy Spirit's work, as per the Westminster Confession of Faith:

WCF (http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/) 11:4 God did, from all eternity, decree to justify all the elect, and Christ did, in the fulness of time, die for their sins, and rise again for their justification: nevertheless, they are not justified, until the Holy Spirit doth, in due time, actually apply Christ unto them.

Until justified, the elect are under condemnation. In other words, there is a difference between saying that "election is salvation" and "election is unto salvation." The historic Reformed position is that election is unto salvation. God decrees to save the elect in eternity, but their salvation is accomplished and applied in time, before which time (as Eph 2 makes clear) they are "by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

See Calvin:


John Calvin: Therefore all of us, who have descended from impure seed, are born infected with the contagion of sin. In fact, before we saw the light of this life we were soiled and spotted in God´s sight. Institutes of the Christian Religion, Vol. 1, ed. John T. McNeill and trans.
Ford Lewis Battles, (Philadelphia: The Westminster Press, reprinted 1977), Book II.1.5, p. 248.

John Calvin: 10. The Elect before their call. There is no "śseed of election"ť The elect are gathered into Christ´s flock by a call not immediately at birth, and not all at the same time, but according as it pleases God to dispense his grace to them. But before they are gathered unto that supreme Shepherd, they wander scattered in the wilderness common to all; and they do not differ at all from others except that they are protected by God´s especial mercy from rushing headlong into the final ruin of death. If you look upon them, you will see Adam´s offspring, who savor of the common corruption of the mass. The fact that they are not carried to utter and even desperate impiety is not due to any innate goodness of theirs but because the eye of God watches over their safety and his hand is outstretched to them!

For those who imagine that some sort of seed of election was sown in them from birth itself, and that by its power they have always been inclined to piety and the fear of God, are not supported by Scriptural authority and are refuted by experience itself. They put forward a few examples by which to prove that the elect even before illumination were not strangers to religion: Paul lived a blameless life as a Pharisee [Philippians 3:5-6]; Cornelius, with alms and prayers, was acceptable to God [Acts 10:2], and the like, if any. As for Paul, we grant them their point; in Cornelius, we say they are deceived. For it appears that he was then already enlightened and regenerated, so that he lacked nothing but a clear revelation of the gospel. But what will they wring out of these few examples? That all the elect are always endowed with the spirit of piety? No more than if someone"”by showing the uprightness of Aristides, Socrates, Xenocrates, Scipio, Curius, Camillus, and others"”infers from it that all who are forsaken in the darkness of idolatry were earnest seekers of holiness and purity. Indeed, Scripture openly disclaims them in more than one place.

This state before regeneration described by Paul in his letter to the Ephesians shows no grain of this seed. "śYou were dead,"ť he says, "śthrough the trespasses and sins in which you... walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the air, who is now at work in his disobedient sons. Among these we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of the flesh and of the mind. So we were by nature children of wrath, like the rest."ť [Ephesians 2:1-3, abbr.] Again: "śRemember that... you were once without hope, and lacking God in the world."ť [Ephesians 2:12 p.] Likewise: You were once darkness but are now light in the Lord; walk as children of light."ť [Ephesians 5:8-9.]

But they would perhaps like this to be referred to ignorance of the true God in which, as they do not deny, the elect are held before they are called. Yet this would be shameless calumny, since he draws the inference that they ought no longer to lie [Ephesians 4:25] or steal [Ephesians 4:28]. But what answer will they make to the other passages? Such as that in the letter to the Corinthians, where, after declaring that "śneither fornicators nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor the effeminate, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor the greedy, will inherit the Kingdom of God"ť [1 Corinthians 6:9-10], he immediately adds that they were guilty of those very transgressions before they knew Christ but are now washed with his blood and freed by the Spirit [1 Corinthians 9:11]. Likewise, another passage, in the letter to the Romans: "śJust as you... yielded your members as slaves to impurity and to greater iniquity upon iniquity, so now yield your members in bondage to righteousness"ť [1 Corinthians 6:19, cf. Vg.]. "śFor what fruit did you get from those things at which you now rightly blush?"ť [1 Corinthians 6:21 p.]. Institutes of the Christian Religion, Vol. 2, ed. John T. McNeill and trans.
Ford Lewis Battles, (Philadelphia: The Westminster Press, reprinted 1977), Book III.24.10, pp. 976-977.


B57, I know you are an odd duck, given to extreme hyper-Calvinism, but the Reformed tradition stands against you. I say this only to note that your vocal views, while sometimes accurate, are more often beyond the bounds of orthodoxy. Have you spoken with your Pastor about your views? What was his counsel?

AMR

So you don't believe that Christ death alone removed the wrath of God from them that He died for ! Then you don't believe in or understand propitiation ! You make Christ death alone ineffective to appease God's wrath ! That's unbelief ! :-)

Robert Pate
January 29th, 2015, 03:31 PM
False teaching!

Before a person can hear and believe the Gospel, which is Spiritual,
he must first be made Spiritually alive; Born of God.

John 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words:
ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

~~~~~


You are not of God if you have not heard and believed the Gospel.

Ask Mr. Religion
January 29th, 2015, 03:36 PM
So you don't believe that Christ death alone removed the wrath of God from them that He died for ! Then you don't believe in or understand propitiation ! You make Christ death alone ineffective to appease God's wrath ! That's unbelief ! :-)

There is no way your post, four minutes after my own, implies you took careful time to review what I provided for your edification. I think, while you have a heart for the Lord, you are too often given over to emotional passions, losing yourself in the moment, versus the call from Holy Writ to take every word captive for the glory of God (2 Cor. 10:5).

Have you spoken with your Pastor about these matters? What was his counsel?

AMR

beloved57
January 29th, 2015, 03:39 PM
You are not of God if you have not heard and believed the Gospel.

That's you ! You reject the Gospel daily !

beloved57
January 29th, 2015, 03:40 PM
There is no way your post, four minutes after my own, implies you took careful time to review what I provided for your edification. I think, while you have a heart for the Lord, you are too often given over to emotional passions, losing yourself in the moment, versus the call from Holy Writ to take every word captive for the glory of God (2 Cor. 10:5).

Have you spoken with your Pastor about these matters? What was his counsel?

AMR

You are in unbelief, you don't believe that Christ death alone propitated God's wrath for those He died for !

Nanja
January 29th, 2015, 03:43 PM
You cannot be born again without hearing and believing the Gospel, Galatians 3:2.

The "hearing of faith" in Gal. 3:2 is only for those born of the Spirit,
and does not teach that an unregenerate person can have faith that pleases God.
But first Born of God, then comes hearing. Again, the dead cannot hear!

John 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words:
ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

~~~~~

Ask Mr. Religion
January 29th, 2015, 03:43 PM
You are in unbelief, you don't believe that Christ death alone propitated God's wrath for those He died for !

Have you spoken with your Pastor? What was his counsel?

AMR

Nanja
January 29th, 2015, 03:49 PM
You are not of God if you have not heard and believed the Gospel.


Only one who is Born of God / Born of the Spirit can hear God's Words:

John 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words:
ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

~~~~~

beloved57
January 29th, 2015, 05:06 PM
Have you spoken with your Pastor? What was his counsel?

AMR
Evasion, you don't believe that Christ death propitated God's wrath ! Do you know what propitated means ? Because you are falsely teaching that those who Christ already satisfied God's law and justice for, are still born under God's wrath ! :-)

Nanja
January 30th, 2015, 08:15 AM
I believe that The Elect of God were never under God's wrath.

They are born into this world by nature the children of wrath Eph. 2:3, in that they are naturally enslaved
to the lusts of the flesh because they are of the flesh, until such time as they are Born of the Spirit.

How can one who has been chosen In Christ Eph. 1:4-5 to have Eternal Life, one for whom
Christ was the propitiation for his sins 1 John 4:10 ever be under God's wrath? That's not possible.

Propitiation means God's Wrath has been appeased hilasmos for them!

~~~~~

chrysostom
January 30th, 2015, 08:20 AM
Dan P,

As a lost person under the wrath of God, I possessed no moral ability to participate in my own salvation.

did you participate in your salvation?

beloved57
January 30th, 2015, 09:43 AM
nanja


I believe that The Elect of God were never under God's wrath.

Amen, they never were !


They are born into this world by nature the children of wrath Eph. 2:3, in that they are naturally enslaved
to the lusts of the flesh because they are of the flesh, until such time as they are Born of the Spirit.

Yes, all of which means, the Elect by nature are just as worthy of wrath as sinners, like the non elect, they walk worthily of wrath like any other sinner is Pauls point !


How can one who has been chosen In Christ Eph. 1:4-5 to have Eternal Life, one for whom
Christ was the propitiation for his sins 1 John 4:10 ever be under God's wrath? That's not possible.


Exactly, along with the fact that those Christ died for, have been reconciled to God by that Death, even while they are enemies Rom 5:10 which makes it impossible to be under God's Wrath and Reconciled to God at the same time !


Propitiation means God's Wrath has been appeased hilasmos for them!

Yes, God's Wrath for them has been drank dry, God's wrath is totally appeased regarding them, for Christ's Sake ! To say otherwise is total disrespect and belittlement of the Effects of Christ's Death to the Father !

Nanja
January 30th, 2015, 11:24 AM
nanja



Amen, they never were !



Yes, all of which means, the Elect by nature are just as worthy of wrath as sinners, like the non elect, they walk worthily of wrath like any other sinner is Pauls point !



Exactly, along with the fact that those Christ died for, have been reconciled to God by that Death, even while they are enemies Rom 5:10 which makes it impossible to be under God's Wrath and Reconciled to God at the same time !



Yes, God's Wrath for them has been drank dry, God's wrath is totally appeased regarding them, for Christ's Sake ! To say otherwise is total disrespect and belittlement of the Effects of Christ's Death to the Father !


Amen to all your comments,
and TY for expounding further! ☺

~~~~~

Robert Pate
January 30th, 2015, 12:28 PM
I believe that The Elect of God were never under God's wrath.

They are born into this world by nature the children of wrath Eph. 2:3, in that they are naturally enslaved
to the lusts of the flesh because they are of the flesh, until such time as they are Born of the Spirit.

How can one who has been chosen In Christ Eph. 1:4-5 to have Eternal Life, one for whom
Christ was the propitiation for his sins 1 John 4:10 ever be under God's wrath? That's not possible.

Propitiation means God's Wrath has been appeased hilasmos for them!

~~~~~


All are born into sin, Psalm 51:5 and continue in sin.

Your only hope from being in sin, is to be found "In Christ" in the judgment.

To be found in Christ means to renounce your righteousness and your religion and to trust in Christ alone.

Ask Mr. Religion
January 30th, 2015, 01:39 PM
Evasion, you don't believe that Christ death propitated God's wrath ! Do you know what propitated means ? Because you are falsely teaching that those who Christ already satisfied God's law and justice for, are still born under God's wrath ! :-)

I have clearly answered your charges and your only retort is to consign me to perdition.

Again,

Have you spoken to your Pastor about your views? What was his counsel?

AMR

Nanja
January 30th, 2015, 02:04 PM
All are born into sin, Psalm 51:5 and continue in sin.

Your only hope from being in sin, is to be found "In Christ" in the judgment.

To be found in Christ means to renounce your righteousness and your religion and to trust in Christ alone.


clueless

~~~~~

beloved57
January 30th, 2015, 03:39 PM
I have clearly answered your charges and your only retort is to consign me to perdition.

Again,

Have you spoken to your Pastor about your views? What was his counsel?

AMR

You don't believe in the Death of Christ and what it accomplished for those He died propitiating God's wrath ! You disregard that and insist that those Christ died for are still born under God's propitated wrath ! That's unbelief on your part !

Bright Raven
January 30th, 2015, 03:53 PM
You don't believe in the Death of Christ and what it accomplished for those He died propitiating God's wrath ! You disregard that and insist that those Christ died for are still born under God's propitated wrath ! That's unbelief on your part !

Have you ever sought help for your condition?

Ask Mr. Religion
January 30th, 2015, 04:26 PM
I have clearly answered your charges and your only retort is to consign me to perdition.

Again,

Have you spoken to your Pastor about your views? What was his counsel?

AMR


You don't believe in the Death of Christ and what it accomplished for those He died propitiating God's wrath ! You disregard that and insist that those Christ died for are still born under God's propitated wrath ! That's unbelief on your part !

I suspect you will not answer my question is because you are not covenanted with a local assembly and under authority of its ordained servants. Lone Rangers, receiving no instruction and spiritual care from the local church, often exhibit the unbridled and erroneous, views that you put forth here and elsewhere. Find yourself a good church that believes in the essentials. Sit there under their authority, hear the word of God from the oracles of God, partake of the ordinary means of grace in Word and Sacrament, be subject to the church's discipline when needed, and give according to your gifts to the growth of body. Your solitary "itching ears" are not serving you or the Kingdom very well, b57.

AMR

beloved57
January 30th, 2015, 04:32 PM
I suspect you will not answer my question is because you are not covenanted with a local assembly and under authority of its ordained servants. Lone Rangers, receiving no instruction and spiritual care from the local church, often exhibit the unbridled and erroneous, views that you put forth here and elsewhere. Find yourself a good church that believes in the essentials. Sit there under their authority and hear the word of God from the oracles of God, partake of the ordinary means of grace in Word and Sacrament, and give according to your gifts to the growth of body. Your "itching ears" are not serving you or the Kingdom very well, b57.

AMR

You are not even a believer in Christ ! You asking me that question is like a christian scientist asking me that ! One who doesn't even believe in Christ ! Ask me that when you become a believer in Christ and propitiating death ! :-)

Bright Raven
January 30th, 2015, 04:38 PM
You are not even a believer in Christ ! You asking me that question is like a christian scientist asking me that ! One who doesn't even believe in Christ ! Ask me that when you become a believer in Christ and propitiating death ! :-)

He is trying to help you by letting you know that your theology is in trouble. Why don't you take the time to see the opinion of other and come to the conclusion that maybe, just maybe you are incorrect.

beloved57
January 30th, 2015, 04:41 PM
He is trying to help you by letting you know that your theology is in trouble. Why don't you take the time to see the opinion of other and come to the conclusion that maybe, just maybe you are incorrect.

Lol, that is funny ! One who rejects Christ death correcting one who believes in Christ and His Saving death !

Ask Mr. Religion
January 30th, 2015, 04:44 PM
You are not even a believer in Christ ! You asking me that question is like a christian scientist asking me that ! One who doesn't even believe in Christ ! Ask me that when you become a believer in Christ and propitiating death ! :-)
I think it best you and I ignore one another, b57.

Please refrain from inserting yourself in discussions with posts directed at me and I will do the same.

Agree?

AMR

beloved57
January 30th, 2015, 04:46 PM
I think it best you and I ignore one another, b57.

Please refrain from inserting yourself in discussions with posts directed at me and I will do the same.

Agree?

AMR

Is this a public forum ?

Ask Mr. Religion
January 30th, 2015, 04:49 PM
Is this a public forum ?

Guess that is a no to my request, then.

I am only asking you not post questions or comments directly to me. If you want to talk about me, go right ahead.

Fair enough?

AMR

Robert Pate
January 30th, 2015, 08:12 PM
Is this a public forum ?


Yes, this is a public Forum and you are a public nuisance. You can't even get along with your Calvinist brother.

beloved57
January 30th, 2015, 08:19 PM
Yes, this is a public Forum and you are a public nuisance. You can't even get along with your Calvinist brother.

To get along with me you can't teach that those Christ appeased God's wrath for, are still born under God's wrath ! Such foolishness nullifies the Effects of Christ Death ! He is no more a believer in Christ as you are, who teaches salvation by works !

Robert Pate
January 30th, 2015, 08:27 PM
To get along with me you can't teach that those Christ appeased God's wrath for, are still born under God's wrath ! Such foolishness nullifies the Effects of Christ Death ! He is no more a believer in Christ as you are, who teaches salvation by works !


We are all born sinners.

Jesus Christ is God's new Adam and humanities new representative. God now sees the whole world in his Son Jesus Christ. In the judgment you will either be found "In Christ" or you will be found in your sins.

beloved57
January 30th, 2015, 08:27 PM
Unless you are one of those "eternal justification" erroneous advocates, advocating no evangelism is needed as the elect will just be converted no matter what the church does, the Apostle Paul answers this question in Eph 2:1:

1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Even the elect are by nature children of wrath even as others. The elect are under the same condemnation until the application of Christ's person and work by virtue of the Holy Spirit's work, as per the Westminster Confession of Faith:

WCF (http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/) 11:4 God did, from all eternity, decree to justify all the elect, and Christ did, in the fulness of time, die for their sins, and rise again for their justification: nevertheless, they are not justified, until the Holy Spirit doth, in due time, actually apply Christ unto them.

Until justified (fulness of time), the elect are under condemnation. In other words, there is a difference between saying that "election is salvation" and "election is unto salvation." The historic Reformed position is that election is unto salvation. God decrees to save the elect in eternity, but their salvation is accomplished and applied in time, before which time (as Eph 2 makes clear) they are "by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

See Calvin:


John Calvin: Therefore all of us, who have descended from impure seed, are born infected with the contagion of sin. In fact, before we saw the light of this life we were soiled and spotted in God´s sight.

Institutes of the Christian Religion, Vol. 1, ed. John T. McNeill and trans. Ford Lewis Battles, (Philadelphia: The Westminster Press, reprinted 1977), Book II.1.5, p. 248.

John Calvin: 10. The Elect before their call. There is no "śseed of election"ť The elect are gathered into Christ´s flock by a call not immediately at birth, and not all at the same time, but according as it pleases God to dispense his grace to them. But before they are gathered unto that supreme Shepherd, they wander scattered in the wilderness common to all; and they do not differ at all from others except that they are protected by God´s especial mercy from rushing headlong into the final ruin of death. If you look upon them, you will see Adam´s offspring, who savor of the common corruption of the mass. The fact that they are not carried to utter and even desperate impiety is not due to any innate goodness of theirs but because the eye of God watches over their safety and his hand is outstretched to them!

For those who imagine that some sort of seed of election was sown in them from birth itself, and that by its power they have always been inclined to piety and the fear of God, are not supported by Scriptural authority and are refuted by experience itself. They put forward a few examples by which to prove that the elect even before illumination were not strangers to religion: Paul lived a blameless life as a Pharisee [Philippians 3:5-6]; Cornelius, with alms and prayers, was acceptable to God [Acts 10:2], and the like, if any. As for Paul, we grant them their point; in Cornelius, we say they are deceived. For it appears that he was then already enlightened and regenerated, so that he lacked nothing but a clear revelation of the gospel. But what will they wring out of these few examples? That all the elect are always endowed with the spirit of piety? No more than if someone"”by showing the uprightness of Aristides, Socrates, Xenocrates, Scipio, Curius, Camillus, and others"”infers from it that all who are forsaken in the darkness of idolatry were earnest seekers of holiness and purity. Indeed, Scripture openly disclaims them in more than one place.

This state before regeneration described by Paul in his letter to the Ephesians shows no grain of this seed. "śYou were dead,"ť he says, "śthrough the trespasses and sins in which you... walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the air, who is now at work in his disobedient sons. Among these we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of the flesh and of the mind. So we were by nature children of wrath, like the rest."ť [Ephesians 2:1-3, abbr.] Again: "śRemember that... you were once without hope, and lacking God in the world."ť [Ephesians 2:12 p.] Likewise: You were once darkness but are now light in the Lord; walk as children of light."ť [Ephesians 5:8-9.]

But they would perhaps like this to be referred to ignorance of the true God in which, as they do not deny, the elect are held before they are called. Yet this would be shameless calumny, since he draws the inference that they ought no longer to lie [Ephesians 4:25] or steal [Ephesians 4:28]. But what answer will they make to the other passages? Such as that in the letter to the Corinthians, where, after declaring that "śneither fornicators nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor the effeminate, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor the greedy, will inherit the Kingdom of God"ť [1 Corinthians 6:9-10], he immediately adds that they were guilty of those very transgressions before they knew Christ but are now washed with his blood and freed by the Spirit [1 Corinthians 9:11]. Likewise, another passage, in the letter to the Romans: "śJust as you... yielded your members as slaves to impurity and to greater iniquity upon iniquity, so now yield your members in bondage to righteousness"ť [1 Corinthians 6:19, cf. Vg.]. "śFor what fruit did you get from those things at which you now rightly blush?"ť [1 Corinthians 6:21 p.].

Institutes of the Christian Religion, Vol. 2, ed. John T. McNeill and trans. Ford Lewis Battles, (Philadelphia: The Westminster Press, reprinted 1977), Book III.24.10, pp. 976-977.


B57, I know you are an odd duck, given to extreme hyper-Calvinism, but the Reformed tradition stands against you. I say this only to note that your vocal views, while sometimes accurate, are more often beyond the bounds of orthodoxy. Have you spoken with your Pastor about your views? What was his counsel?

AMR

Amr teaches that the work of the Spirit is what removes the condemnation of the Elect and not the Work of Christ bearing their condemnation for them ! He says that not until the Spirit works in you are you out from under God's condemnation and wrath !

beloved57
January 30th, 2015, 08:29 PM
We are all born sinners.

Jesus Christ is God's new Adam and humanities new representative. God now sees the whole world in his Son Jesus Christ. In the judgment you will either be found "In Christ" or you will be found in your sins.

You teach that saved people who God sees in Christ can loose their Salvation !

Robert Pate
January 30th, 2015, 08:30 PM
Amr teaches that the work of the Spirit is what removes the condemnation of the Elect and not the Work of Christ bearing their condemnation for them ! He says that not until the Spirit works in you are you out from under God's condemnation and wrath !

I don't know why you Calvinist even mention Christ.

If you believe that you were predestinated by God before the foundation of world. Why do you need Jesus Christ?

beloved57
January 30th, 2015, 08:31 PM
I don't know why you Calvinist even mention Christ.

If you believe that you were predestinated by God before the foundation of world. Why do you need Jesus Christ?

Foolish and unlearned question ! Since when did you believe in Christ ?

glorydaz
January 30th, 2015, 08:35 PM
As Luther notes...

"...in things which pretain to salvation or damnation, he has no "Free-will," but is a captive slave, and servant, either to the will of God, or to the will of Satan"

We serve only one of two masters, God or the devil.

The lost serve the latter, as it is written, the lost...

- is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9);
- is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23);
- loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19);
- is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12);
- is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6);
- is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1);
- is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3);
- cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14); and
- is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

Clearly from the above sampling of Holy Writ, it is clear that the lost have no moral ability to seek after the righteousness of God. It is only when God the Holy Spirit regeneratively replaces their lost hearts of stone with one of flesh (Eze. 36:26) that the lost are given the moral ability to believe.

AMR

I see the before and after....what is missing from your post is the being persuaded by the preaching of the Gospel.

glorydaz
January 30th, 2015, 08:39 PM
Yes, this is a public Forum and you are a public nuisance. You can't even get along with your Calvinist brother.


:thumb:

Bright Raven
January 30th, 2015, 08:41 PM
You teach that saved people who God sees in Christ can loose their Salvation !

Nope, can't loose your salvation. We agree?

Crowns&Laurels
January 30th, 2015, 08:45 PM
Whoever doesn't believe in predestination doesn't actually believe in an omnipotent God.
One pulls God down to man rather then God pulling us to Him for all those who labor under free will theology- a KEY POINT in which Protestants initially spoke on, in part to undermine the pope and, two, to undermine the flip floppery of going in and out of salvation which the Church teaches.

Simply put, without predestination, Protestantism fails. Arminian-based churches are theologically impaired.

beloved57
January 30th, 2015, 08:47 PM
I see the before and after....what is missing from your post is the being persuaded by the preaching of the Gospel.
You have not been persuaded to believe the Gospel !

beloved57
January 30th, 2015, 08:48 PM
Nope, can't loose your salvation. We agree?

When did you believe the Gospel ?

Bright Raven
January 30th, 2015, 08:52 PM
When did you believe the Gospel ?

You are the most disruptive person on this forum. How about that. That fits. Heathen heretic!

beloved57
January 30th, 2015, 09:00 PM
You are the most disruptive person on this forum. How about that. That fits. Heathen heretic!

See you at the Judgment !

Bright Raven
January 30th, 2015, 09:03 PM
See you at the Judgment !

Read and heed.

2 Corinthians 4:3-5 King James Version (KJV)

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

beloved57
January 30th, 2015, 09:05 PM
Read and heed.

2 Corinthians 4:3-5 King James Version (KJV)

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

You don't believe that passage !

Bright Raven
January 30th, 2015, 09:09 PM
You don't believe that passage !

Oh yes I do and you are headed to be with your father the devil if you don't change

beloved57
January 30th, 2015, 09:18 PM
Oh yes I do and you are headed to be with your father the devil if you don't change

Looks like he is your pops !

Bright Raven
January 30th, 2015, 09:22 PM
Looks like he is your pops !

Trying to be funny? Didn't work disciple of the devil.

TulipBee
January 31st, 2015, 06:51 AM
Oh yes I do and you are headed to be with your father the devil if you don't change

Those that God never drew don't change.

They stay in the Earthy normal state.

Robert Pate
January 31st, 2015, 09:15 AM
Those that God never drew don't change.

They stay in the Earthy normal state.


To teach that God is not willing that all should be saved, 2 Peter 3:9, is to teach that God is a murderous tyrant that delights in sending lost souls to hell.

What you say about God tells us that you do not believe that he is just, merciful and righteous. You believe that he gives life so that he can destroy it in hell.

It is not humanly possible for you to have saving faith in this kind of a God. Therefore you are lost.

beloved57
January 31st, 2015, 02:20 PM
To teach that God is not willing that all should be saved, 2 Peter 3:9, is to teach that God is a murderous tyrant that delights in sending lost souls to hell.

What you say about God tells us that you do not believe that he is just, merciful and righteous. You believe that he gives life so that he can destroy it in hell.

It is not humanly possible for you to have saving faith in this kind of a God. Therefore you are lost.

More blasphemy against God of Israel !

Bright Raven
January 31st, 2015, 02:22 PM
More blasphemy against God of Israel !

:loser: You're lost!

TulipBee
January 31st, 2015, 06:37 PM
can you answer the question?

how were you saved?

I was saved 506,724 years ago when God knew me before I was born.

I existed then and had plenty of time to work the bugs out before birth.

Nanja
January 31st, 2015, 06:48 PM
More blasphemy against God of Israel !


Amen!

Mat. 5:11-12 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you,
and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven:
for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

~~~~~

beloved57
February 1st, 2015, 12:32 AM
To teach that God is not willing that all should be saved, 2 Peter 3:9, is to teach that God is a murderous tyrant that delights in sending lost souls to hell.

What you say about God tells us that you do not believe that he is just, merciful and righteous. You believe that he gives life so that he can destroy it in hell.

It is not humanly possible for you to have saving faith in this kind of a God. Therefore you are lost.

More blasphemy against God !

Robert Pate
February 1st, 2015, 02:07 PM
More blasphemy against God !


You cannot tell us when you accepted Christ as you savior.

So, we must assume that you never did.

beloved57
February 1st, 2015, 02:15 PM
You cannot tell us when you accepted Christ as you savior.

So, we must assume that you never did.

Still promoting salvation by works !

Robert Pate
February 2nd, 2015, 09:17 AM
Still promoting salvation by works !


You are a poor unfortunate soul.

There is no difference between you and an unbeliever.

You don't believe that Jesus is your savior.

beloved57
February 2nd, 2015, 09:20 AM
You are a poor unfortunate soul.

There is no difference between you and an unbeliever.

You don't believe that Jesus is your savior.

You dont believe Jesus Christ is anyone Saviour. You teach that mans freewill is his saviour ! If Christ is the Saviour, why do you teach that millions who He is Saviour to, are yet unsaved ?

Robert Pate
February 2nd, 2015, 09:33 AM
You dont believe Jesus Christ is anyone Saviour. You teach that mans freewill is his saviour ! If Christ is the Saviour, why do you teach that millions who He is Saviour to, are yet unsaved ?

Because God is just, merciful and righteous he does not force anyone to believe upon his Son.

If you are going to be saved you will have to come to Christ as a repentant sinner and call upon him to save you.

"Whosoever that calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

beloved57
February 2nd, 2015, 11:24 AM
Because God is just, merciful and righteous he does not force anyone to believe upon his Son.

If you are going to be saved you will have to come to Christ as a repentant sinner and call upon him to save you.

"Whosoever that calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

Again promoting salvation by works, by what a person does !

If we say that man must do anything to get saved, we by default deny that Jesus Christ Death alone saved those He died for, which is unbelief and saying that Christ death was a failure !

Nanja
February 2nd, 2015, 04:30 PM
If you are going to be saved you will have to come to Christ as a repentant sinner and call upon him to save you.

"Whosoever that calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.


When we compare scripture with scripture 1 Cor. 2:13, we can understand
how that no one can call upon the name of the Lord and be saved unless
he has been already made Spiritually Alive / Quickened.

Ps. 80:18 KJV So will not we go back from thee:
quicken chayah us and we will call upon thy name.

~~~~~

Robert Pate
February 2nd, 2015, 05:44 PM
Again promoting salvation by works, by what a person does !

If we say that man must do anything to get saved, we by default deny that Jesus Christ Death alone saved those He died for, which is unbelief and saying that Christ death was a failure !


You are in denial of what the Bible teaches.

"Whosoever that calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

Why is it you cannot hear and understand what the scripture says?

Are you calling Paul a liar? Do you think that there is something wrong with the Bible?

Or is it that you are spiritually dead?

Robert Pate
February 2nd, 2015, 05:48 PM
When we compare scripture with scripture 1 Cor. 2:13, we can understand
how that no one can call upon the name of the Lord and be saved unless
he has been already made Spiritually Alive / Quickened.

Ps. 80:18 KJV So will not we go back from thee:
quicken chayah us and we will call upon thy name.

~~~~~

You too are also in denial of the scriptures.

When people hear and believe the Gospel the responce is that...

"Whosoever that calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

Nanja
February 2nd, 2015, 06:10 PM
You too are also in denial of the scriptures.

When people hear and believe the Gospel the responce is that...

"Whosoever that calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.


You must understand that no one can hear the Gospel which is Spiritual,
unless they have been given Spiritual Ears.

That is reserved for the ones chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world Eph. 1:4-5:
Christ's Sheep!

John 10:27-28 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any
man pluck them out of my hand.


Those who were not chosen in Christ will never "hear" Spiritual Truth!

Prov. 20:12 The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the LORD hath made even both of them.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not
might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

~~~~~

beloved57
February 2nd, 2015, 11:15 PM
When we compare scripture with scripture 1 Cor. 2:13, we can understand
how that no one can call upon the name of the Lord and be saved unless
he has been already made Spiritually Alive / Quickened.

Ps. 80:18 KJV So will not we go back from thee:
quicken chayah us and we will call upon thy name.

~~~~~

Amen, we have been telling him that for years now and he will not hear it !

beloved57
February 2nd, 2015, 11:17 PM
You are in denial of what the Bible teaches.

"Whosoever that calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

Why is it you cannot hear and understand what the scripture says?

Are you calling Paul a liar? Do you think that there is something wrong with the Bible?

Or is it that you are spiritually dead?

Promoting salvation by works again, by what a person does !

beloved57
February 2nd, 2015, 11:19 PM
You must understand that no one can hear the Gospel which is Spiritual,
unless they have been given Spiritual Ears.

That is reserved for the ones chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world Eph. 1:4-5:
Christ's Sheep!

John 10:27-28 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any
man pluck them out of my hand.


Those who were not chosen in Christ will never "hear" Spiritual Truth!

Prov. 20:12 The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the LORD hath made even both of them.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not
might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

~~~~~

Looks like he's never going to ever hear !

Nanja
February 3rd, 2015, 05:14 AM
Looks like he's never going to ever hear !


Sure looks like it.

~~~~~

TulipBee
February 3rd, 2015, 06:07 AM
Sure looks like it.

~~~~~

i have both of them on my ignore list.

The gospel has been truer since then.

Robert Pate
February 3rd, 2015, 12:06 PM
i have both of them on my ignore list.

The gospel has been truer since then.


You are not going to be able to put Christ on your ignore list when you are standing before him in the judgment in your sins.

beloved57
February 9th, 2015, 12:56 AM
You are not going to be able to put Christ on your ignore list when you are standing before him in the judgment in your sins.

When did you become a believer in Christ ? You believe in freewill as your false saviour !

Simon Baker
February 9th, 2015, 01:18 AM
When did you become a believer in Christ ? You believe in freewill as your false saviour !

Can we not have Free Will and be Saved by Christ's Work on The Cross ?

beloved57
February 9th, 2015, 01:19 AM
Can we not have Free Will and be Saved by Christ's Work on The Cross ?

Are you a believer in Christ ?

Simon Baker
February 9th, 2015, 01:20 AM
You are not going to be able to put Christ on your ignore list when you are standing before him in the judgment in your sins.

LOL. I am not laughing AT anyone, but I like that statement. We can have in Ignore List ?

Simon Baker
February 9th, 2015, 01:22 AM
i have both of them on my ignore list.

The gospel has been truer since then.

Is Truer a word ? i really do not know, it doesn't look right. Is it "more true" ?

Totton Linnet
February 9th, 2015, 03:36 AM
Can we not have Free Will and be Saved by Christ's Work on The Cross ?

The truth is "freewill" ALWAYS flees the cross, of COURSE it does. There is no greater proof of this than beloved Peter. "All these may forsake You but I will never forsake You"

But he did.

A careful self examination would show that none of us willingly came to the cross to be saved and scripture agrees with that

"we hid as it were our faces from Him"

Even when we are saved we rather speak about the power and glory, the resurrection and the new birth than to speak about the shame and the weakness of the cross.

We learn by faith to love the cross.

miscellaneous
February 9th, 2015, 04:35 AM
...Martin Luther Comments on Free Will.

"Free-will is plainly a divine term, and can be applicable to none but the divine majesty only: for He alone "Doth, (as the Psalm sings) what he will in heaven and earth." (Ps.cxxxv. 6.)

... that it be used so far as to allow man a "Free-will" not in respect of those things which are above him, but in respect only of those things which are below him: ...but that, God-ward, or in things which pretain to salvation or damnation, he has no "Free-will," but is a captive slave, and servant, either to the will of God, or to the will of Satan".
- Bondage of the will, XXV1, pp. 76-79.

Luther must've had a real problem, or he was not too smart. How can man follow the "will of Satan", and not follow "the will of God", since, "Free-will is plainly a divine term, and can be applicable to none but the divine majesty only: for He alone "Doth, (as the Psalm sings) what he will in heaven and earth." (Ps.cxxxv. 6.) ?

Satan is therefore doing "God's will"; hence, anyone who is a "captive slave, and servant to the will of Satan", is also a "captive slave, and servant to the will of God".

Hence, everyone is doing "God's will"; therefore, we're all walking in righteousness because God is righteous. According to this doctrine, even Satan is doing righteousness, even if it's called something else; he has no other choice.

What was Luther's point?

beloved57
February 9th, 2015, 05:10 AM
Luther must've had a real problem, or he was not too smart. How can man follow the "will of Satan", and not follow "the will of God", since, "Free-will is plainly a divine term, and can be applicable to none but the divine majesty only: for He alone "Doth, (as the Psalm sings) what he will in heaven and earth." (Ps.cxxxv. 6.) ?

Satan is therefore doing "God's will"; hence, anyone who is a "captive slave, and servant to the will of Satan", is also a "captive slave, and servant to the will of God".

Hence, everyone is doing "God's will"; therefore, we're all walking in righteousness because God is righteous. According to this doctrine, even Satan is doing righteousness, even if it's called something else; he has no other choice.

What was Luther's point?

This is a false conclusion, that is , just because everyone is doing God's Will, that means they are walking in Righteousness ! The fact is, everyone is doing God's will, yet sometimes that means walking in a wicked manner, as these who crucified Christ Acts 2:23

23 Him[Christ], being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God[His Will], ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

It was God predetermine will that these men be guilty of this crime they committed by their wicked hands !

So your conclusions are false and made in spiritual ignorance !

Mark SeaSigh
February 9th, 2015, 05:29 AM
How can man follow the "will of Satan", and not follow "the will of God", since, "Free-will is plainly a divine term, and can be applicable to none but the divine majesty only: for He alone "Doth, (as the Psalm sings) what he will in heaven and earth." (Ps.cxxxv. 6.) ?

?

Excuse Me?

Explain; Possibly ask this same question in a different way...

Maybe define what you think "god" and "satan" mean to you, Personally?




=M=

miscellaneous
February 9th, 2015, 06:09 AM
?

Excuse Me?

Explain; Possibly ask this same question in a different way...

Maybe define what you think "god" and "satan" mean to you, Personally?




=M=

If "Free-will" is a divine attribute, as Luther states it is, Satan does not have it; therefore he must be carrying out some Other Will. So when he acts, he is acting out Another's Will, and whoever acts out Satan's will is actually acting out the Other Will. If the Other Will is Divine, it is only righteous(right, good), therefore all acts performed are acting out the Divine Will and are righteous(right, good).

If you believe God's Will is supreme over all other, you must believe all other is determined by God's Will. No?

Therefore I said,

Luther must've had a real problem, or he was not too smart. How can man follow the "will of Satan", and not follow "the will of God", since, "Free-will is plainly a divine term, and can be applicable to none but the divine majesty only: for He alone "Doth, (as the Psalm sings) what he will in heaven and earth." (Ps.cxxxv. 6.) ?

Satan is therefore doing "God's will"; hence, anyone who is a "captive slave, and servant to the will of Satan", is also a "captive slave, and servant to the will of God".

Hence, everyone is doing "God's will"; therefore, we're all walking in righteousness because God is righteous. According to this doctrine, even Satan is doing righteousness, even if it's called something else; he has no other choice.

What was Luther's point?

If everything other is subject to fulfilling the Will of God, and if the Will of God is righteous, unrighteousness looses it's meaning.

Mark SeaSigh
February 9th, 2015, 06:11 AM
If "Free-will" is a divine attribute, as Luther states it is

Oh!

You don't believe in "Masonic/Popery" and Other Extra-Biblical Sources about God's Word, Either?



=M=



Do you stick to God's word, for your Information about Bible Topics; or, do you also include works of the Roman Catholic Church, and other Extra-Biblical Books and theories about the Bible?


====================================


Where in the whole Bible, does it say any of God's Creatures; "Don't have Free Will"?


Do you have a Verse that Mentions the term "Free-Will", or is that another Lie that the Catholic Church is responsible for?

( I do think God's word mentions about Predestination, or that things are "Predestined" to be. )

miscellaneous
February 9th, 2015, 06:24 AM
This is a false conclusion, ...

So your conclusions are false and made in spiritual ignorance !

You may be right; however, if God wills a man to walk in unrighteousness, and if that man can do no other, than it is like you throwing four of your grandbabies into a pit of venomous vipers, and then punishing them for getting bitten by putting them into eternal fire; then you asking your other grandchildren to believe that you wouldn't ever do it to them because you are a good granddaddy...

Think the others would trust you?

Mark SeaSigh
February 9th, 2015, 06:26 AM
If everything other is subject to fulfilling the Will of God, and if the Will of God is righteous, unrighteousness looses it's meaning.


Miscellaneous;

I think God can see "How Everything will happen"; but, I don't think that Man has what you think as of "Free Will".

For an Explanation; I'd say that you would have made Every single mistake in your Life, that you did the first time around, if you were given the chance to do it again: if you were not aware of your Mistakes in the first Place.

Only God can see what is Truly Predestined in my Opinion, Reality is all from Him anyway.

So, we all have "Free-Will", God knows all things, and He knows the actions and choices we will make; and, can fully understand and see the Ultimate repercussions of all the Choices and actions we will make.


=M=


Are you aware of any Verses from God's word that mention the Concept of "Free-Will", in the Bible itself?

If not, Some and Possible all of Luther's comments writings and works were based simply off of the Man's own imagination, and not on the Word of God; as he may have claimed in the First place.

(Catholic Move, that they Pull all the Time.)

miscellaneous
February 9th, 2015, 06:45 AM
Oh!

You don't believe in "Masonic/Popery" and Other Extra-Biblical Sources about God's Word, Either?



=M=



Do you stick to God's word, for your Information about Bible Topics; or, do you also include works of the Roman Catholic Church, and other Extra-Biblical Books and theories about the Bible?


====================================


Where in the whole Bible, does it say any of God's Creatures; "Don't have Free Will"?


Do you have a Verse that Mentions the term "Free-Will", or is that another Lie that the Catholic Church is responsible for?

( I do think God's word mentions about Predestination, or that things are "Predestined" to be. )

I suppose we could argue about something but I simply responded to Luther's comment in the OP. Luther must have struggled with his own views about the character of God.

Ok, let's go:
People have been arguing about scripture for thousands of years and accomplished what? Were you there when it was written? Did you communicate with the authors? Do you have special interpretation techniques which others don't have? Do you need the scripture to know God? Do I? If so, most of us will never know Him; we can't even agree what they teach.

Again, I simply responded to the OP; I wonder if you care to refute my conclusion.


Luther must've had a real problem, or he was not too smart.

Mark SeaSigh
February 9th, 2015, 06:49 AM
I "Don't agree", with Catholics often, that's true...

: )



=M=

beloved57
February 9th, 2015, 07:02 AM
You may be right; however, if God wills a man to walk in unrighteousness, and if that man can do no other, than it is like you throwing four of your grandbabies into a pit of venomous vipers, and then punishing them for getting bitten by putting them into eternal fire; then you asking your other grandchildren to believe that you wouldn't ever do it to them because you are a good granddaddy...

Think the others would trust you?

I know I am right, I proved it with scripture, so again, your statements were out of spiritual ignorance and so invalid !

Desert Reign
February 9th, 2015, 07:59 AM
If everything other is subject to fulfilling the Will of God, and if the Will of God is righteous, unrighteousness looses it's meaning.

This is a re-expression of the ancient Euthyphro dilemma.


You may be right; however, if God wills a man to walk in unrighteousness, and if that man can do no other, than it is like you throwing four of your grandbabies into a pit of venomous vipers, and then punishing them for getting bitten by putting them into eternal fire; then you asking your other grandchildren to believe that you wouldn't ever do it to them because you are a good granddaddy...

Think the others would trust you?


B57 has already given his answer to this here (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3848844&posted=1#post3848844). See B57's response in the next post on and my subsequent reply here (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3849808&posted=1#post3849808).

miscellaneous
February 9th, 2015, 10:27 AM
This is a re-expression of the ancient Euthyphro dilemma.




B57 has already given his answer to this here (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3848844&posted=1#post3848844). See B57's response in the next post on and my subsequent reply here (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3849808&posted=1#post3849808).

Whoa, I guess that settles it; thanks.

Desert Reign
February 9th, 2015, 11:09 AM
Whoa, I guess that settles it; thanks.

Well, for B57, I am sure it does, because he has no concept of right and wrong. That unfortunately is what extreme dogmatism and indoctrination does to you. If he thought God arranged the world to make life for its inhabitants as excruciatingly painful as possible, then that, to B57 would be his ideal good.

Puppet
February 12th, 2015, 02:35 PM
HOGWASH!

No one is born again or becomes a Christian without hearing and believing the Gospel.

On the day of Pentecost when the Gospel first came into the world in the power of the Holy Spirit they received Peter's Gospel and were born again, Acts 2:38-41.

The Holy Spirit is only given to those who hear and believe the Gospel, "Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law (because you did something or because you became something) or was it by the hearing of faith" (hearing and believing the Gospel) Galatians 3:2.

How can you go on and on about being saved and never mention the Gospel or what Christ did to save you? If you had the Holy Spirit which you don't, you would glorify Christ with the Gospel.

"For he shall not speak of himself. He shall glorify me" John 16:13, 14. All you talk about is yourself and your Calvinist doctrine.


The instrument through which God is saving him is faith.

Puppet
February 12th, 2015, 02:40 PM
You cannot be born again without hearing and believing the Gospel, Galatians 3:2.


Obedience is never said to be the ground or instrument of their salvation.

Puppet
February 12th, 2015, 02:44 PM
You cannot be born again without hearing and believing the Gospel, Galatians 3:2.


The believers are “kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation”

Robert Pate
February 12th, 2015, 02:55 PM
Dan P,

As a lost person under the wrath of God, I possessed no moral ability to participate in my own salvation. I was lost, in other words, I was

- deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9);
- full of evil (Mark 7:21-23);
- loved darkness rather than light (John 3:19);
- unrighteous, did not understand, did not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12);
- helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6);
- dead in my trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1);
- by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3);
- could not understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14); and
- a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

In other words, my inability to submit to God and do good was total (Romans 8:7-8; Ephesians 2:1; 2 Corinthians 4:4-6). My rebellion was wholly deserving of eternal punishment (2 Thessalonians 1:6-9; Matthew 5:29-30; 10:28; 13:49-50; 18:8-9; 25:46; Rev. 14:9-11; 20:10).

For His own good purposes and glory, without considering anything He foresaw I had or may do (no foreseen personal merit), God took the initiative according to His eternal decree and plan for realization of His decree. God regeneratively replaced my "heart of stone" with "one of flesh" (Eze. 36:26) and I was simultaneously and irresistibly given the moral ability of belief in the Good News that was preached (i.e., the ordinary means of regeneration), an ability I did not possess beforehand. My ability to believe, previously lost to all Adam's progeny with his fall in the Garden, was such that I could not be inclined other than to believe. Indeed, as but and undeserving, repentant sinner, at the moment of my "re-birth" (regeneration) the greatest inclinations of my free will were the laying hold of the righteousness of Christ's works— His active and passive obedience, on my and all those on behalf of whom He came to actually (not possibly) redeem.

My new principle of life — my love for and trust of my Savior, Jesus Christ, fully God and fully man in one Person — flows from my new birth, not vice versa. I believe this is clearly taught in John 3:3 wherein our Lord tells us we cannot even see the kingdom of God unless we are first born again. If we cannot see the kingdom, we certainly cannot enter it; thus, regeneration precedes faith in some sort of logical manner. In regenerating my heart, the efficacious regenerative grace of the Holy Spirit opened my eyes, making me irresistibly able and thusly, inclined to obey in faith.

I do not forget that God does not look at my faith or knowledge as the ground of my justification but rather the ground of my justification is the finished work of Christ. Faith is the alone by which I, a sinner, cling to Christ and am now justified, solely by Christ's active and passive obedient works on my behalf and for others of whom Jesus came to render their salvation to actually deliver (not possibly deliver) them from the curse of the law, and from the power of sin.

In other words, my faith is the instrument, not the cause, which belongs to Christ alone, of my justification before God the Father.

My new life that came when the quickening power of the Holy Spirit transformed my heart did not eradicate sin’s presence from my life. Even as regenerated to a new life, after my heart was redirected towards the Savior, I still have great capacity for evil. While the power of sin to compel me to do evil is now broken, my ability to sin remains (Rom. 7:4–25), for I will never escape the noetic effects of sin until coming into my glory.

Therefore, I must do all that I can to put to death the lusts of my flesh. Most thankfully, my Lord is the author of my faith hence, He is also the finisher (Heb. 12:2) such that I will persevere to the very end and to my ultimate glory. Mine is an alien righteousness, one instilled from outside myself, that of Christ's (1 Corinthians 1:30). I always remember that regeneration was only the beginning of my walk, thus I am less surprised at my struggles with temptation and become more vigilant in mortifying my flesh.

for what He did for us,
AMR

How can you write a long article about your salvation and not once mention the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Can it be that you don't need it?

Puppet
February 12th, 2015, 03:01 PM
How can you write a long article about your salvation and not once mention the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Can it be that you don't need it?


Believers are those who “truly believe in Christ” and who “endeavor to walk in all good conscience before him.”

Robert Pate
February 12th, 2015, 03:10 PM
Believers are those who “truly believe in Christ” and who “endeavor to walk in all good conscience before him.”

Believers are those who believe that Jesus has saved them from their sins.

We are called to live our lives before the Lord as sinners, Romans 7.

beloved57
February 12th, 2015, 03:46 PM
Believers are those who believe that Jesus has saved them from their sins.

We are called to live our lives before the Lord as sinners, Romans 7.

Since when did you believe e Jesus Christ ? You teach that millions upon millions for whom Christ died are going to hell in their sins in unbelief !

Robert Pate
February 12th, 2015, 04:25 PM
Since when did you believe e Jesus Christ ? You teach that millions upon millions for whom Christ died are going to hell in their sins in unbelief !

You have never responded to the Gospel.

You are still in your sins.

Puppet
February 12th, 2015, 04:47 PM
Believers are those who believe that Jesus has saved them from their sins.

We are called to live our lives before the Lord as sinners, Romans 7.


It is the elect who are effectually called, it is they were are justified, it is the justified who are adopted, sanctified, and kept by God’s sovereign power “through faith, unto salvation.”

beloved57
February 12th, 2015, 05:19 PM
You have never responded to the Gospel.

You are still in your sins.

Promoting salvation by works, by what a person does ! That's boasting !

Robert Pate
February 12th, 2015, 05:24 PM
Promoting salvation by works, by what a person does ! That's boasting !

Salvation is a free gift from God.

If you don't receive it, it is not yours, John 1:12

beloved57
February 12th, 2015, 05:25 PM
Salvation is a free gift from God.

If you don't receive it, it is not yours, John 1:12

Promoting salvation by works, by what a person does, that is boasting !

Robert Pate
February 12th, 2015, 05:28 PM
Promoting salvation by works, by what a person does, that is boasting !

You would rather go to hell than call on Christ to save you.

beloved57
February 12th, 2015, 05:29 PM
You would rather go to hell than call on Christ to save you.

Promoting salvation by works, by what a person does, that is boasting !

Robert Pate
February 12th, 2015, 05:34 PM
Promoting salvation by works, by what a person does, that is boasting !

"You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you do always resist the Holy Spirit".

beloved57
February 12th, 2015, 05:54 PM
"You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you do always resist the Holy Spirit".

Name calling will not help you, you still teach salvation by works, by what a person does, that is a curse !

beloved57
February 24th, 2015, 01:33 AM
Dan P,

As a lost person under the wrath of God, I possessed no moral ability to participate in my own salvation. I was lost, in other words, I was

- deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9);
- full of evil (Mark 7:21-23);
- loved darkness rather than light (John 3:19);
- unrighteous, did not understand, did not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12);
- helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6);
- dead in my trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1);
- by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3);
- could not understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14); and
- a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

In other words, my inability to submit to God and do good was total (Romans 8:7-8; Ephesians 2:1; 2 Corinthians 4:4-6). My rebellion was wholly deserving of eternal punishment (2 Thessalonians 1:6-9; Matthew 5:29-30; 10:28; 13:49-50; 18:8-9; 25:46; Rev. 14:9-11; 20:10).

For His own good purposes and glory, without considering anything He foresaw I had or may do (no foreseen personal merit), God took the initiative according to His eternal decree and plan for realization of His decree. God regeneratively replaced my "heart of stone" with "one of flesh" (Eze. 36:26) and I was simultaneously and irresistibly given the moral ability of belief in the Good News that was preached (i.e., the ordinary means of regeneration), an ability I did not possess beforehand. My ability to believe, previously lost to all Adam's progeny with his fall in the Garden, was such that I could not be inclined other than to believe. Indeed, as but and undeserving, repentant sinner, at the moment of my "re-birth" (regeneration) the greatest inclinations of my free will were the laying hold of the righteousness of Christ's works— His active and passive obedience, on my and all those on behalf of whom He came to actually (not possibly) redeem.

My new principle of life — my love for and trust of my Savior, Jesus Christ, fully God and fully man in one Person — flows from my new birth, not vice versa. I believe this is clearly taught in John 3:3 wherein our Lord tells us we cannot even see the kingdom of God unless we are first born again. If we cannot see the kingdom, we certainly cannot enter it; thus, regeneration precedes faith in some sort of logical manner. In regenerating my heart, the efficacious regenerative grace of the Holy Spirit opened my eyes, making me irresistibly able and thusly, inclined to obey in faith.

I do not forget that God does not look at my faith or knowledge as the ground of my justification but rather the ground of my justification is the finished work of Christ. Faith is the alone by which I, a sinner, cling to Christ and am now justified, solely by Christ's active and passive obedient works on my behalf and for others of whom Jesus came to render their salvation to actually deliver (not possibly deliver) them from the curse of the law, and from the power of sin.

In other words, my faith is the instrument, not the cause, which belongs to Christ alone, of my justification before God the Father.

My new life that came when the quickening power of the Holy Spirit transformed my heart did not eradicate sin’s presence from my life. Even as regenerated to a new life, after my heart was redirected towards the Savior, I still have great capacity for evil. While the power of sin to compel me to do evil is now broken, my ability to sin remains (Rom. 7:4–25), for I will never escape the noetic effects of sin until coming into my glory.

Therefore, I must do all that I can to put to death the lusts of my flesh. Most thankfully, my Lord is the author of my faith hence, He is also the finisher (Heb. 12:2) such that I will persevere to the very end and to my ultimate glory. Mine is an alien righteousness, one instilled from outside myself, that of Christ's (1 Corinthians 1:30). I always remember that regeneration was only the beginning of my walk, thus I am less surprised at my struggles with temptation and become more vigilant in mortifying my flesh.

for what He did for us,
AMR

Where you Justified before God soley by Christ's active and passive obedience before you believed in Christ ? Even when you were dead in sin and unbelief ?

Truster
February 24th, 2015, 01:43 AM
"You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you do always resist the Holy Spirit".

ACTUALLY I THINK HE RESISTS PATE....


....AND THAT GETS RIGHT UP YOUR NOSE.

Because the end of your teaching is glory for Pate. You long to be revered for your forced and counterfeit wisdom. When that doesn't happen the accusations and unrelated scriptures begin to fly.

I am blessed in the firm knowledge that the heirs of salvation will not, no way, be led astray by your nonsense.

Robert Pate
February 24th, 2015, 07:00 AM
Dan P,

As a lost person under the wrath of God, I possessed no moral ability to participate in my own salvation. I was lost, in other words, I was

- deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9);
- full of evil (Mark 7:21-23);
- loved darkness rather than light (John 3:19);
- unrighteous, did not understand, did not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12);
- helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6);
- dead in my trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1);
- by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3);
- could not understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14); and
- a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

In other words, my inability to submit to God and do good was total (Romans 8:7-8; Ephesians 2:1; 2 Corinthians 4:4-6). My rebellion was wholly deserving of eternal punishment (2 Thessalonians 1:6-9; Matthew 5:29-30; 10:28; 13:49-50; 18:8-9; 25:46; Rev. 14:9-11; 20:10).

For His own good purposes and glory, without considering anything He foresaw I had or may do (no foreseen personal merit), God took the initiative according to His eternal decree and plan for realization of His decree. God regeneratively replaced my "heart of stone" with "one of flesh" (Eze. 36:26) and I was simultaneously and irresistibly given the moral ability of belief in the Good News that was preached (i.e., the ordinary means of regeneration), an ability I did not possess beforehand. My ability to believe, previously lost to all Adam's progeny with his fall in the Garden, was such that I could not be inclined other than to believe. Indeed, as but and undeserving, repentant sinner, at the moment of my "re-birth" (regeneration) the greatest inclinations of my free will were the laying hold of the righteousness of Christ's works— His active and passive obedience, on my and all those on behalf of whom He came to actually (not possibly) redeem.

My new principle of life — my love for and trust of my Savior, Jesus Christ, fully God and fully man in one Person — flows from my new birth, not vice versa. I believe this is clearly taught in John 3:3 wherein our Lord tells us we cannot even see the kingdom of God unless we are first born again. If we cannot see the kingdom, we certainly cannot enter it; thus, regeneration precedes faith in some sort of logical manner. In regenerating my heart, the efficacious regenerative grace of the Holy Spirit opened my eyes, making me irresistibly able and thusly, inclined to obey in faith.

I do not forget that God does not look at my faith or knowledge as the ground of my justification but rather the ground of my justification is the finished work of Christ. Faith is the alone by which I, a sinner, cling to Christ and am now justified, solely by Christ's active and passive obedient works on my behalf and for others of whom Jesus came to render their salvation to actually deliver (not possibly deliver) them from the curse of the law, and from the power of sin.

In other words, my faith is the instrument, not the cause, which belongs to Christ alone, of my justification before God the Father.

My new life that came when the quickening power of the Holy Spirit transformed my heart did not eradicate sin’s presence from my life. Even as regenerated to a new life, after my heart was redirected towards the Savior, I still have great capacity for evil. While the power of sin to compel me to do evil is now broken, my ability to sin remains (Rom. 7:4–25), for I will never escape the noetic effects of sin until coming into my glory.

Therefore, I must do all that I can to put to death the lusts of my flesh. Most thankfully, my Lord is the author of my faith hence, He is also the finisher (Heb. 12:2) such that I will persevere to the very end and to my ultimate glory. Mine is an alien righteousness, one instilled from outside myself, that of Christ's (1 Corinthians 1:30). I always remember that regeneration was only the beginning of my walk, thus I am less surprised at my struggles with temptation and become more vigilant in mortifying my flesh.

for what He did for us,
AMR


Here is your problem.

If you really believed that you were justified by the doing and the dying of Jesus Christ and you were trusting in him and in him alone then you would not need anything else.

But you do need that something else. You need religion, mainly the Calvinist religion.

So its Jesus Christ plus Calvinism.

beloved57
February 24th, 2015, 12:07 PM
Here is your problem.

If you really believed that you were justified by the doing and the dying of Jesus Christ and you were trusting in him and in him alone then you would not need anything else.

But you do need that something else. You need religion, mainly the Calvinist religion.

So its Jesus Christ plus Calvinism.

You teach Salvation by works, by what a person does !

wordsponge
February 24th, 2015, 12:22 PM
Is M.L. a Prophet or an Apostle?

God's Truth
June 25th, 2015, 11:04 AM
Dan P,

As a lost person under the wrath of God, I possessed no moral ability to participate in my own salvation. I was lost, in other words, I was

- deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9);
- full of evil (Mark 7:21-23);
- loved darkness rather than light (John 3:19);
- unrighteous, did not understand, did not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12);
- helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6);
- dead in my trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1);
- by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3);
- could not understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14); and
- a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

In other words, my inability to submit to God and do good was total (Romans 8:7-8; Ephesians 2:1; 2 Corinthians 4:4-6). My rebellion was wholly deserving of eternal punishment (2 Thessalonians 1:6-9; Matthew 5:29-30; 10:28; 13:49-50; 18:8-9; 25:46; Rev. 14:9-11; 20:10).

At the age of fourteen, I had heard about a local Baptist tent revival hosted by one Rev. Walter St. Claire in Kingsport, Tennessee. I was very curious about what went on at these revivals, so I hitchhiked to the meetings each night and to see Rev. St. Claire bring down fire and brimstone among those in attendance. Each night when I got home I would open my Bible to learn more about what I had heard. The things I had heard were hard sayings, "faith alone", "grace alone", "propitiation". In the days of no internet, all I had was my Grandmother's huge family Bible, so I would turn its pages hoping to understand some small part of what I had heard earlier that evening.

On the fourth of the five nights Rev. St. Claire was in town I returned home, again studying what I had heard. On this night, what I was reading from that evening's sermon, "Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold, the hour is at hand..." (Matthew 26:45), seemed to jump off the page. Yes! I was like the sleeping disciples, who had become so "comfortable" with the physical Lord they had been walking with, that I did not grasp Who Jesus really was and why He was sent by God. Now no tears came, no crying out for mercy, but only the washing over me a sense of tremendous peace as I prayed for God to grant someone unworthy like me His saving grace. That regenerative moment in my life set me on a journey in my walk of faith that still continues.

On that night, for God's own good purposes and glory, without considering anything He foresaw I had or may do (no foreseen personal merit), God took the initiative according to His eternal decree and plan for realization of His decree. God regeneratively replaced my "heart of stone" with "one of flesh" (Eze. 36:26) and I was simultaneously and irresistibly given the moral ability of belief in the Good News that was preached (i.e., the ordinary means of regeneration), an ability I did not possess beforehand. My ability to believe, previously lost to all Adam's progeny with his fall in the Garden, was such that I could not be inclined other than to believe. Indeed, as but and undeserving, repentant sinner, at the moment of my "re-birth" (regeneration) the greatest inclinations of my free will were the laying hold of the righteousness of Christ's works— His active and passive obedience, on my and all those on behalf of whom He came to actually (not possibly) redeem.

My new principle of life — my love for and trust of my Savior, Jesus Christ, fully God and fully man in one Person — flows from my new birth, not vice versa. I believe this is clearly taught in John 3:3 wherein our Lord tells us we cannot even see the kingdom of God unless we are first born again. If we cannot see the kingdom, we certainly cannot enter it; thus, regeneration precedes its fruit—faith—in some sort of logical manner. In regenerating my heart, the efficacious regenerative grace of the Holy Spirit opened my eyes, making me irresistibly able and thusly, inclined to obey in faith.

I do not forget that God does not look at my faith or knowledge as the ground of my justification but rather the ground of my justification is the finished work of Christ. Faith is the alone by which I, a sinner, cling to Christ and am now justified, solely by Christ's active and passive obedient works on my behalf and for others of whom Jesus came to render their salvation to actually deliver (not possibly deliver) them from the curse of the law, and from the power of sin.

In other words, my faith is the instrument, not the cause, which belongs to Christ alone, of my justification before God the Father.

My new life that came when the quickening power of the Holy Spirit transformed my heart did not eradicate sin’s presence from my life. Even as regenerated to a new life, after my heart was redirected towards the Savior, I still have great capacity for evil. While the power of sin to compel me to do evil is now broken, my ability to sin remains (Rom. 7:4–25), for I will never escape the noetic effects of sin until coming into my glory.

Therefore, I must do all that I can to put to death the lusts of my flesh. Most thankfully, my Lord is the author of my faith hence, He is also the finisher (Heb. 12:2) such that I will persevere to the very end and to my ultimate glory. Mine is an alien righteousness, one instilled from outside myself, that of Christ's (1 Corinthians 1:30). I always remember that regeneration was only the beginning of my walk, thus I am less surprised at my struggles with temptation and become more vigilant in mortifying my flesh.

for what He did for us,
AMR

Nowhere in the Bible does it say God regenerates people to believe. God saves and regenerates those who believe and obey.

Ezekiel 18:31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel?

The people had to repent first before God would give them a new heart.

Not everyone has a deceitful heart. Not everyone is only accustomed to doing evil.

beloved57
June 25th, 2015, 11:29 AM
Nowhere in the Bible does it say God regenerates people to believe. God saves and regenerates those who believe and obey.

Ezekiel 18:31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel?

The people had to repent first before God would give them a new heart.

Not everyone has a deceitful heart. Not everyone is only accustomed to doing evil.

Those in the flesh can't please God Rom 8:8 !

Robert Pate
June 25th, 2015, 12:06 PM
Those in the flesh can't please God Rom 8:8 !

I don't recall anyone on the Forum teaching that those in the flesh can please God.

If you are in the flesh that means that you have not been born again, John 3:6.

Peter wrote... Being born again, not of corruptable seed, but of incorruptable seed, by the word of God (The Gospel) which lives and abides forever" 1 Peter 1:23.

beloved57
June 25th, 2015, 12:12 PM
I don't recall anyone on the Forum teaching that those in the flesh can please God.

If you are in the flesh that means that you have not been born again, John 3:6.

Peter wrote... Being born again, not of corruptable seed, but of incorruptable seed, by the word of God (The Gospel) which lives and abides forever" 1 Peter 1:23.

Yes you teach it all the time. You say that the natural man in the flesh has the ability to believe on Christ, to put Faith in Christ, that pleases God Heb 11:6 !

You even go as far as to say all men have Faith, that pleases God as a natural attribute, so you teach that those in the flesh can please God, which is a lie !

Totton Linnet
June 25th, 2015, 12:28 PM
How can one for whom Christ died for, and propitated God's wrath for, ever be under God's wrath ? That is a contradiction !

God has "consigned" all men under sin that He might have mercy upon all....that places all under the wrath of God.

Totton Linnet
June 25th, 2015, 12:32 PM
You are in unbelief, you don't believe that Christ death alone propitated God's wrath for those He died for !

God's wrath was somewhat ameliorated after the flood, since the time of Noah "whatsoever a man shall sow that also shall he reap"

Robert Pate
June 25th, 2015, 12:34 PM
Yes you teach it all the time. You say that the natural man in the flesh has the ability to believe on Christ, to put Faith in Christ, that pleases God Heb 11:6 !

You even go as far as to say all men have Faith, that pleases God as a natural attribute, so you teach that those in the flesh can please God, which is a lie !

There are only two positions that a person can be in.

1. "In the flesh" means that they have not been born again.

2. "In the Spirit" means that they have been born again.

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh: and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit" John 3:6.

We are born again by hearing and believing the Gospel, just like on the day of Pentecost, Acts 2:38.

Totton Linnet
June 25th, 2015, 12:37 PM
Evasion, you don't believe that Christ death propitated God's wrath ! Do you know what propitated means ? Because you are falsely teaching that those who Christ already satisfied God's law and justice for, are still born under God's wrath ! :-)

Ephesians 3.

Among whom also we our conversasion in times past in the lusts of the flesh and of the mind and were by nature CHILDREN OF WRATH even as others.

Totton Linnet
June 25th, 2015, 12:40 PM
You don't believe in the Death of Christ and what it accomplished for those He died propitiating God's wrath ! You disregard that and insist that those Christ died for are still born under God's propitated wrath ! That's unbelief on your part !

We were by nature children of wrath even as others

Totton Linnet
June 25th, 2015, 12:46 PM
Amr teaches that the work of the Spirit is what removes the condemnation of the Elect and not the Work of Christ bearing their condemnation for them ! He says that not until the Spirit works in you are you out from under God's condemnation and wrath !

And AMR is right for the sacrifice of the cross was offered for us through the eternal Spirit and He it is who makes it effectual at the time of His choosing.

Until that time we consigned under sin, children of wrath....as Paul says "lost without hope and without God in the world"

You are wrong

Robert Pate
June 25th, 2015, 12:46 PM
We were by nature children of wrath even as others

Right!

Paul said that the whole world is guilty before God, Romans 3:19.

beloved57
June 25th, 2015, 12:47 PM
God has "consigned" all men under sin that He might have mercy upon all....that places all under the wrath of God.

You didn't answer the question! Gods Wrath has been propitiated for those Christ died for, so how could they be under Gods Wrath? That is a contradiction!

beloved57
June 25th, 2015, 12:50 PM
We were by nature children of wrath even as others

Yeah those Christ died for were that, but those Christ died for, His death propitiated Gods Wrath, appeased it and reconciled them to God while they are enemies and unbelievers Rom 5:10, so how could they be under Gods Wrath?

Totton Linnet
June 25th, 2015, 12:51 PM
You didn't answer the question! Gods Wrath has been propitiated for those Christ died for, so how could they be under Gods Wrath? That is a contradiction!

AMR is correct for the propitiation for our sin is made applicable to us by the Holy Ghost at the time of His choosing...until then we are children of wrath even as others.

beloved57
June 25th, 2015, 02:13 PM
AMR is correct for the propitiation for our sin is made applicable to us by the Holy Ghost at the time of His choosing...until then we are children of wrath even as others.

Amr is a false witness, the propitiation was applied while being enemies, that is why they were reconciled to God while being enemies Rom 5:10

Totton Linnet
June 25th, 2015, 02:29 PM
Amr is a false witness, the propitiation was applied while being enemies, that is why they were reconciled to God while being enemies Rom 5:10

AMR believes that as do I....yous saying we are never enemies in the first place.

beloved57
June 25th, 2015, 02:35 PM
AMR believes that as do I....yous saying we are never enemies in the first place.
Both of you are in error, Those Christ died for are reconciled to God while they are enemies, so that proves that as enemies and unbelievers they're not under Gods Wrath, for God's wrath has been propitiated! How can they be under Gods Wrath when God for them has been propitiated?

beloved57
June 25th, 2015, 02:38 PM
AMR believes that as do I....yous saying we are never enemies in the first place.

That's a lie, I am saying that those Christ died for are reconciled to God As Enemies! Rom 5:10 !

Totton Linnet
June 25th, 2015, 02:56 PM
yes as enemies...under His wrath

Robert Pate
June 25th, 2015, 03:16 PM
That's a lie, I am saying that those Christ died for are reconciled to God As Enemies! Rom 5:10 !

They are reconciled to God by hearing and believing the Gospel.

"Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" (The Gospel) Romans 10:17.

beloved57
June 25th, 2015, 03:23 PM
They are reconciled to God by hearing and believing the Gospel.

"Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" (The Gospel) Romans 10:17.
That's a lie, they were reconciled to God while being enemies by the Death of Christ, God's Son Rom 5:10 ! Are you calling Paul a liar?

beloved57
June 25th, 2015, 03:25 PM
yes as enemies...under His wrath
That's false, enemies and reconciled to God Rom 5:10 !

Robert Pate
June 25th, 2015, 03:28 PM
That's a lie, they were reconciled to God while being enemies by the Death of Christ, God's Son Rom 5:10 ! Are you calling Paul a liar?

No one is reconciled to God without receiving the reconciliation. This is why Paul said, "Be ye reconciled to God" 2 Corinthians 5:20.

If you don't receive what Christ has done to reconcile you to God, you are lost.

beloved57
June 25th, 2015, 03:32 PM
No one is reconciled to God without receiving the reconciliation. This is why Paul said, "Be ye reconciled to God" 2 Corinthians 5:20.

If you don't receive what Christ has done to reconcile you to God, you are lost.

False teaching, Those Christ died for are reconciled to God while they are enemies Rom 5:10 !

Robert Pate
June 25th, 2015, 03:46 PM
False teaching, Those Christ died for are reconciled to God while they are enemies Rom 5:10 !

You don't get it.

The reconciliating work of Christ makes salvation available to all who do nothing more than this... "Whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

beloved57
June 25th, 2015, 04:19 PM
You don't get it.

The reconciliating work of Christ makes salvation available to all who do nothing more than this... "Whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

Those Christ died for are reconciled to God while they are enemies and unbelievers Rom 5:10 !

Robert Pate
June 26th, 2015, 07:42 AM
Those Christ died for are reconciled to God while they are enemies and unbelievers Rom 5:10 !


You are not reconciled until you accept the reconciliation. "Be ye Reconciled unto God" 2 Corinthians 5:20.

beloved57
June 26th, 2015, 07:43 AM
You are not reconciled until you accept the reconciliation. "Be ye Reconciled unto God" 2 Corinthians 5:20.

Those Christ died for are reconciled to God while they were being enemies and unbelievers Rom 5:10 ! You calling Paul a liar?

Robert Pate
June 28th, 2015, 06:07 PM
Those Christ died for are reconciled to God while they were being enemies and unbelievers Rom 5:10 ! You calling Paul a liar?


Some how in your twisted mind you think that Romans 5:10 supports predestination.

God has reconciled the whole world unto himself by the doing and the dying of Jesus. Jesus is the reconciler, Romans 3:26.

No one is reconciled unto God without the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Now it is your responsibilty to accept the reconciliation that God has provided for you in Jesus Christ.

This is why Paul said. "Be ye reconciled unto God" 2 Corinthians 5:20.

beloved57
June 28th, 2015, 08:48 PM
Some how in your twisted mind you think that Romans 5:10 supports predestination.

God has reconciled the whole world unto himself by the doing and the dying of Jesus. Jesus is the reconciler, Romans 3:26.

No one is reconciled unto God without the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Now it is your responsibilty to accept the reconciliation that God has provided for you in Jesus Christ.

This is why Paul said. "Be ye reconciled unto God" 2 Corinthians 5:20.

All whom Christ died for are reconciled to God by His Death while they are enemies and shall be saved by His life Rom 5:10 ,that doesn't apply to all without exception since some people are already condemned and under Gods Wrath as unbelievers John 3:18,36 !

Robert Pate
June 28th, 2015, 09:01 PM
All whom Christ died for are reconciled to God by His Death while they are enemies and shall be saved by His life Rom 5:10 ,that doesn't apply to all without exception since some people are already condemned and under Gods Wrath as unbelievers John 3:18,36 !

You are suffering from a bad case of Herecitus.

Here is the cure... "Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

Do this right away.

beloved57
June 28th, 2015, 09:03 PM
You are suffering from a bad case of Herecitus.

Here is the cure... "Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

Do this right away.

Those Christ died for are reconciled saved from their sins by Christ death, while they are enemies and unbelievers Rom 5:10 !

Robert Pate
June 28th, 2015, 09:12 PM
Those Christ died for are reconciled saved from their sins by Christ death, while they are enemies and unbelievers Rom 5:10 !


You have tunnel vision. At the end of the tunnel is John Calvin.

beloved57
June 28th, 2015, 09:13 PM
You have tunnel vision. At the end of the tunnel is John Calvin.

You don't believe the scriptures!

Robert Pate
June 29th, 2015, 01:21 PM
You don't believe the scriptures!

We are justified and saved by the doing and the dying of Jesus.

His life, His death, His resurrection, His position at the right hand of God. All that Jesus is and all that Jesus did is what saves us. Not just his life.

beloved57
June 29th, 2015, 06:21 PM
We are justified and saved by the doing and the dying of Jesus.

His life, His death, His resurrection, His position at the right hand of God. All that Jesus is and all that Jesus did is what saves us. Not just his life.

You teach that millions upon millions for whom Christ died will end up in Hell for their sins in unbelief! What happened?

Robert Pate
June 30th, 2015, 12:38 PM
You teach that millions upon millions for whom Christ died will end up in Hell for their sins in unbelief! What happened?

They like you, didn't believe, John 3:16.

God's Truth
June 30th, 2015, 12:42 PM
They like you, didn't believe, John 3:16.

They like you, refused to repent of their sins, Revelation 9:21, and 16:9.

beloved57
June 30th, 2015, 02:39 PM
They like you, didn't believe, John 3:16.

Christ believed for them, if He lived and died for them! They were complete it Him! So what happened?

Robert Pate
June 30th, 2015, 03:21 PM
They like you, refused to repent of their sins, Revelation 9:21, and 16:9.

Repentance does not save. Repentance is a work of the Holy Spirit and has to do with our sanctification.

God's Truth
June 30th, 2015, 04:00 PM
Repentance does not save. Repentance is a work of the Holy Spirit and has to do with our sanctification.

The Holy Spirit does not repent for you. You have to repent of your sins and prove your repentance.

beloved57
June 30th, 2015, 05:07 PM
Repentance does not save. Repentance is a work of the Holy Spirit and has to do with our sanctification.
Both of you teach salvation by works, by what a person does!

Robert Pate
July 1st, 2015, 07:18 AM
The Holy Spirit does not repent for you. You have to repent of your sins and prove your repentance.

Never said that the Holy Spirit repents for me.

The Holy Spirit convicts us of our sins and prompts us to repent.

Robert Pate
September 14th, 2015, 02:26 PM
Dan P,

As a lost person under the wrath of God, I possessed no moral ability to participate in my own salvation. I was lost, in other words, I was

- deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9);
- full of evil (Mark 7:21-23);
- loved darkness rather than light (John 3:19);
- unrighteous, did not understand, did not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12);
- helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6);
- dead in my trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1);
- by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3);
- could not understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14); and
- a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

In other words, my inability to submit to God and do good was total (Romans 8:7-8; Ephesians 2:1; 2 Corinthians 4:4-6). My rebellion was wholly deserving of eternal punishment (2 Thessalonians 1:6-9; Matthew 5:29-30; 10:28; 13:49-50; 18:8-9; 25:46; Rev. 14:9-11; 20:10).

At the age of fourteen, I had heard about a local Baptist tent revival hosted by one Rev. Walter St. Claire in Kingsport, Tennessee. I was very curious about what went on at these revivals, so I hitchhiked to the meetings each night and to see Rev. St. Claire bring down fire and brimstone among those in attendance. Each night when I got home I would open my Bible to learn more about what I had heard. The things I had heard were hard sayings, "faith alone", "grace alone", "propitiation". In the days of no internet, all I had was my Grandmother's huge family Bible, so I would turn its pages hoping to understand some small part of what I had heard earlier that evening.

On the fourth of the five nights Rev. St. Claire was in town I returned home, again studying what I had heard. On this night, what I was reading from that evening's sermon, "Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold, the hour is at hand..." (Matthew 26:45), seemed to jump off the page. Yes! I was like the sleeping disciples, who had become so "comfortable" with the physical Lord they had been walking with, that I did not grasp Who Jesus really was and why He was sent by God. Now no tears came, no crying out for mercy, but only the washing over me a sense of tremendous peace as I prayed for God to grant someone unworthy like me His saving grace. That regenerative moment in my life set me on a journey in my walk of faith that still continues.

On that night, for God's own good purposes and glory, without considering anything He foresaw I had or may do (no foreseen personal merit), God took the initiative according to His eternal decree and plan for realization of His decree. God regeneratively replaced my "heart of stone" with "one of flesh" (Eze. 36:26) and I was simultaneously and irresistibly given the moral ability of belief in the Good News that was preached (i.e., the ordinary means of regeneration), an ability I did not possess beforehand. My ability to believe, previously lost to all Adam's progeny with his fall in the Garden, was such that I could not be inclined other than to believe. Indeed, as but and undeserving, repentant sinner, at the moment of my "re-birth" (regeneration) the greatest inclinations of my free will were the laying hold of the righteousness of Christ's works— His active and passive obedience, on my and all those on behalf of whom He came to actually (not possibly) redeem.

My new principle of life — my love for and trust of my Savior, Jesus Christ, fully God and fully man in one Person — flows from my new birth, not vice versa. I believe this is clearly taught in John 3:3 wherein our Lord tells us we cannot even see the kingdom of God unless we are first born again. If we cannot see the kingdom, we certainly cannot enter it; thus, regeneration precedes its fruit—faith—in some sort of logical manner. In regenerating my heart, the efficacious regenerative grace of the Holy Spirit opened my eyes, making me irresistibly able and thusly, inclined to obey in faith.

I do not forget that God does not look at my faith or knowledge as the ground of my justification but rather the ground of my justification is the finished work of Christ. Faith is the alone by which I, a sinner, cling to Christ and am now justified, solely by Christ's active and passive obedient works on my behalf and for others of whom Jesus came to render their salvation to actually deliver (not possibly deliver) them from the curse of the law, and from the power of sin.

In other words, my faith is the instrument, not the cause, which belongs to Christ alone, of my justification before God the Father.

My new life that came when the quickening power of the Holy Spirit transformed my heart did not eradicate sin’s presence from my life. Even as regenerated to a new life, after my heart was redirected towards the Savior, I still have great capacity for evil. While the power of sin to compel me to do evil is now broken, my ability to sin remains (Rom. 7:4–25), for I will never escape the noetic effects of sin until coming into my glory.

Therefore, I must do all that I can to put to death the lusts of my flesh. Most thankfully, my Lord is the author of my faith hence, He is also the finisher (Heb. 12:2) such that I will persevere to the very end and to my ultimate glory. Mine is an alien righteousness, one instilled from outside myself, that of Christ's (1 Corinthians 1:30). I always remember that regeneration was only the beginning of my walk, thus I am less surprised at my struggles with temptation and become more vigilant in mortifying my flesh.

for what He did for us,
AMR


You just simply heard the Gospel and believed it. No predestination or being zapped with the Holy Spirit.

You heard, you believed and you received the Holy Spirit, just like they did on the day of Pentecost.

The Holy Spirit was dealing with you, thats why you went to those meetings and thats why you became a believer. Not because you were predestinated.

beloved57
September 14th, 2015, 02:29 PM
Never said that the Holy Spirit repents for me.

The Holy Spirit convicts us of our sins and prompts us to repent.

The Holy Spirit would give one Faith in the True Gospel, Tulip !

Robert Pate
September 14th, 2015, 02:33 PM
The "hearing of faith" in Gal. 3:2 is only for those born of the Spirit,
and does not teach that an unregenerate person can have faith that pleases God.
But first Born of God, then comes hearing. Again, the dead cannot hear!

John 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words:
ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

~~~~~


On the day of Pentecost, they heard the Gospel, they believed the Gospel and they were saved.

We hear the voice of God in the preaching of the Gospel.

beloved57
September 14th, 2015, 02:34 PM
On the day of Pentecost, they heard the Gospel, they believed the Gospel and they were saved.

We hear the voice of God in the preaching of the Gospel.

One must be saved, of God to hear Gods Words Jn 8:47

Nanja
September 14th, 2015, 05:27 PM
One must be saved, of God to hear Gods Words Jn 8:47


So True!

Only those who were ordained / appointed, and Chosen of God Eph. 1:4-11
to an Eternal Inheritance / Eternal Life believed Acts 13:48.

The same are Christ's Sheep:

John 10:27-28
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,
neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

~~~~~

beloved57
September 14th, 2015, 05:34 PM
So True!

Only those who were ordained / appointed, and Chosen of God Eph. 1:4-11
to an Eternal Inheritance / Eternal Life believed Acts 13:48.

The same are Christ's Sheep:

John 10:27-28
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,
neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

~~~~~
Amen!

heir
September 15th, 2015, 05:10 AM
Dan P,

As a lost person under the wrath of God, I possessed no moral ability to participate in my own salvation. I was lost, in other words, I was

- deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9);
- full of evil (Mark 7:21-23);
- loved darkness rather than light (John 3:19);
- unrighteous, did not understand, did not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12);
- helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6);
- dead in my trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1);
- by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3);
- could not understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14); and
- a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

In other words, my inability to submit to God and do good was total (Romans 8:7-8; Ephesians 2:1; 2 Corinthians 4:4-6). My rebellion was wholly deserving of eternal punishment (2 Thessalonians 1:6-9; Matthew 5:29-30; 10:28; 13:49-50; 18:8-9; 25:46; Rev. 14:9-11; 20:10).

At the age of fourteen, I had heard about a local Baptist tent revival hosted by one Rev. Walter St. Claire in Kingsport, Tennessee. I was very curious about what went on at these revivals, so I hitchhiked to the meetings each night and to see Rev. St. Claire bring down fire and brimstone among those in attendance. Each night when I got home I would open my Bible to learn more about what I had heard. The things I had heard were hard sayings, "faith alone", "grace alone", "propitiation". In the days of no internet, all I had was my Grandmother's huge family Bible, so I would turn its pages hoping to understand some small part of what I had heard earlier that evening.

On the fourth of the five nights Rev. St. Claire was in town I returned home, again studying what I had heard. On this night, what I was reading from that evening's sermon, "Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold, the hour is at hand..." (Matthew 26:45), seemed to jump off the page. Yes! I was like the sleeping disciples, who had become so "comfortable" with the physical Lord they had been walking with, that I did not grasp Who Jesus really was and why He was sent by God. Now no tears came, no crying out for mercy, but only the washing over me a sense of tremendous peace as I prayed for God to grant someone unworthy like me His saving grace. That regenerative moment in my life set me on a journey in my walk of faith that still continues.

On that night, for God's own good purposes and glory, without considering anything He foresaw I had or may do (no foreseen personal merit), God took the initiative according to His eternal decree and plan for realization of His decree. God regeneratively replaced my "heart of stone" with "one of flesh" (Eze. 36:26) and I was simultaneously and irresistibly given the moral ability of belief in the Good News that was preached (i.e., the ordinary means of regeneration), an ability I did not possess beforehand. My ability to believe, previously lost to all Adam's progeny with his fall in the Garden, was such that I could not be inclined other than to believe. Indeed, as but and undeserving, repentant sinner, at the moment of my "re-birth" (regeneration) the greatest inclinations of my free will were the laying hold of the righteousness of Christ's works— His active and passive obedience, on my and all those on behalf of whom He came to actually (not possibly) redeem.

My new principle of life — my love for and trust of my Savior, Jesus Christ, fully God and fully man in one Person — flows from my new birth, not vice versa. I believe this is clearly taught in John 3:3 wherein our Lord tells us we cannot even see the kingdom of God unless we are first born again. If we cannot see the kingdom, we certainly cannot enter it; thus, regeneration precedes its fruit—faith—in some sort of logical manner. In regenerating my heart, the efficacious regenerative grace of the Holy Spirit opened my eyes, making me irresistibly able and thusly, inclined to obey in faith.

I do not forget that God does not look at my faith or knowledge as the ground of my justification but rather the ground of my justification is the finished work of Christ. Faith is the alone by which I, a sinner, cling to Christ and am now justified, solely by Christ's active and passive obedient works on my behalf and for others of whom Jesus came to render their salvation to actually deliver (not possibly deliver) them from the curse of the law, and from the power of sin.

In other words, my faith is the instrument, not the cause, which belongs to Christ alone, of my justification before God the Father.

My new life that came when the quickening power of the Holy Spirit transformed my heart did not eradicate sin’s presence from my life. Even as regenerated to a new life, after my heart was redirected towards the Savior, I still have great capacity for evil. While the power of sin to compel me to do evil is now broken, my ability to sin remains (Rom. 7:4–25), for I will never escape the noetic effects of sin until coming into my glory.

Therefore, I must do all that I can to put to death the lusts of my flesh. Most thankfully, my Lord is the author of my faith hence, He is also the finisher (Heb. 12:2) such that I will persevere to the very end and to my ultimate glory. Mine is an alien righteousness, one instilled from outside myself, that of Christ's (1 Corinthians 1:30). I always remember that regeneration was only the beginning of my walk, thus I am less surprised at my struggles with temptation and become more vigilant in mortifying my flesh.

for what He did for us,
AMR
What is the gospel of your salvation, then?

heir
September 15th, 2015, 05:11 AM
So True!

Only those who were ordained / appointed, and Chosen of God Eph. 1:4-11
to an Eternal Inheritance / Eternal Life believed Acts 13:48.

The same are Christ's Sheep:

John 10:27-28
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,
neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

~~~~~What a mess

Robert Pate
September 15th, 2015, 05:45 AM
What is the gospel of your salvation, then?


The Calvinist Gospel is that they have been predestinated by God to be saved before the foundation of the world.

No need for Christ and his Gospel.

beloved57
September 15th, 2015, 06:45 AM
The Calvinist Gospel is that they have been predestinated by God to be saved before the foundation of the world.

No need for Christ and his Gospel.

Predestination and Tulip are Gospel Truth that you don't believe, you are in unbelief!

Robert Pate
September 15th, 2015, 07:30 AM
Predestination and Tulip are Gospel Truth that you don't believe, you are in unbelief!


Thank God for that.

I could be a heretic like you.

beloved57
September 15th, 2015, 08:51 AM
Thank God for that.

I could be a heretic like you.

One thing for sure, you are in unbelief!

Robert Pate
September 15th, 2015, 03:24 PM
One thing for sure, you are in unbelief!


Yes, I do not believe in Calvinism.

beloved57
September 15th, 2015, 03:26 PM
Yes, I do not believe in Calvinism.

Then you dont believe in Jesus Christ and His Gospel !

Robert Pate
September 15th, 2015, 03:36 PM
Then you dont believe in Jesus Christ and His Gospel !

You have the wrong Gospel.

Your Gospel was conceived by the mind of a heretic.

You still haven't answered my question about the deal that God and Jesus made with the devil concerning your doctrine of a limited atonement.

beloved57
September 15th, 2015, 03:37 PM
You have the wrong Gospel.

Your Gospel was conceived by the mind of a heretic.

You still haven't answered my question about the deal that God and Jesus made with the devil concerning your doctrine of a limited atonement.

TULIP is the correct Gospel !

Robert Pate
September 15th, 2015, 03:42 PM
TULIP is the correct Gospel !


Okay, TULIP is YOUR Gospel.

Now tell us about the "L" in TULIP, limited atonement.

What kind of a deal did God and Jesus make with the devil so that there would be a limited atonement?

beloved57
September 15th, 2015, 03:48 PM
pate


You still haven't answered my question about the deal that God and Jesus made with the devil concerning your doctrine of a limited atonement.

Thats something you must answer, you bought it up. I never heard of a deal that God made with the devil concerning limited atonement !

Robert Pate
September 15th, 2015, 04:18 PM
pate



Thats something you must answer, you bought it up. I never heard of a deal that God made with the devil concerning limited atonement !

Stop playing stupid.

How did God and Jesus make a limited atonement?

A limited atonement means that sin, death and the devil are alive and well and there is no salvation for anyone.

beloved57
September 15th, 2015, 05:12 PM
Stop playing stupid.

How did God and Jesus make a limited atonement?

A limited atonement means that sin, death and the devil are alive and well and there is no salvation for anyone.
I have explained the Gospel, Tulip in my threads and posts!

Robert Pate
September 16th, 2015, 08:00 AM
I have explained the Gospel, Tulip in my threads and posts!


Where is your scripture that supports a limited atonement?

beloved57
September 16th, 2015, 08:02 AM
Where is your scripture that supports a limited atonement?
1Jn 2:2 !

Robert Pate
September 16th, 2015, 08:07 AM
1Jn 2:2 !

That scripture supports an unlimited atonement.

"And he is a propitiation for our sins: and not ours only, but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1 John 2:2.

YOU CANNOT DEFEND A LIMITED ATONEMENT BECAUSE THAT IS A FALSE DOCTRINE.

beloved57
September 16th, 2015, 08:08 AM
That scripture supports an unlimited atonement.

"And he is a propitiation for our sins: and not ours only, but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1 John 2:2.

YOU CANNOT DEFEND A LIMITED ATONEMENT BECAUSE THAT IS A FALSE DOCTRINE.
You do lie, it supports limited atonement, I have explained that already in my threads!

Robert Pate
September 16th, 2015, 08:13 AM
You do lie, it supports limited atonement, I have explained that already in my threads!

YOU CANNOT DEFEND A LIMITED ATONEMENT.

How do you expect anyone to believe in TULIP when you can't defend it?

beloved57
September 16th, 2015, 08:14 AM
YOU CANNOT DEFEND A LIMITED ATONEMENT.

How do you expect anyone to believe in TULIP when you can't defend it?

All scripture supports limited atonement and you don't have any that doesn't!

Robert Pate
September 16th, 2015, 08:17 AM
All scripture supports limited atonement and you don't have any that doesn't!

Show us one scripture that supports a limited atonement.

THERE IS NONE. YOU CANNOT DEFEND WHAT YOU BELIEVE.

beloved57
September 16th, 2015, 08:18 AM
Show us one scripture that supports a limited atonement.

THERE IS NONE. YOU CANNOT DEFEND WHAT YOU BELIEVE.
I just did 1jn 2:2 !

Robert Pate
September 16th, 2015, 08:38 AM
I just did 1jn 2:2 !

So you are re-canting your Calvinist doctrine that Jesus made a limited atonement?

Because 1 John 2:2 says that Jesus died for the sins of the "WHOLE WORLD".

beloved57
September 16th, 2015, 08:39 AM
So you are re-canting your Calvinist doctrine that Jesus made a limited atonement?

Because 1 John 2:2 says that Jesus died for the sins of the "WHOLE WORLD".
1Jn 2:2 supports limited atonement!

Robert Pate
September 16th, 2015, 08:44 AM
1Jn 2:2 supports limited atonement!


Is there froth coming out of your mouth?

Because you have apparently gone mad.

Here is your TUIP. No "L" because you cannot defend it.