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me again
September 11th, 2001, 07:20 AM
We heard on the news that a plane flew into one of the World Trade Towers, so we turned on the TV to see if it was true. We saw the top of one of the towers in flames. Then we saw a second plane fly directly into the second World Trade Tower.

It has got to be a Middle Eastern suicide bomber.

o2bwise
September 11th, 2001, 08:24 AM
Another plane hit the Pentagon!

Nineveh
September 11th, 2001, 09:23 AM
Why don't they aim those kamikazes at the UN?

"Second World Trade Towers has collapsed
MSNBC cable reports that both World Towers have collapsed after being hit by two planes Tuesday morning at 9:00 a.m. ET. Evacuations are underway in Washington DC where a plane has hit the Pentagon. "

http://www.msnbc.com/m/lv/default.asp?0cm=c10

chance
September 11th, 2001, 09:42 AM
These are extreme days and they call for extreme action on the part of the Body of Christ. We have to minister to these people who are affected by this terrorism as much as possible.

Pastor Dennis Kiszonas is a grace pastor in the New York City area who has a radio show that goes out to millions of people. Please consider sending him a donation of some sort to his ministry Grace For Today (http://www.gracefortoday.org/default.html) so he and his church can minister to the hurting and desperate people of New York as effectively as possible.

Work done for the LORD is never done in vain (1 Cor 15:58).

Thanks in advance.

PENIEL
September 11th, 2001, 10:32 AM
NEWS TODAY - SEPT 11, 2001

FIVE PLANES WERE HIJACKED IN THE U.S.A .

2 HIT THE WORLD TRADE CENTRES AND ONE HIT THE PENTAGON.

2 EXPLOSIONS WERE HEARD NEAR THE WHITEHOUSE.

OVER 40,000 PEOPLE WORK IN THE TRADE CENTRES.

PEOPLE WERE JUMPING FROM THE TOP OF THE WORLD TRADE CENTRE.

THE 2ND BUILDING COLLAPSED WITH POLICE

AND FIREMEN INSIDE.

THE DEMOCRATIC PALESTINIAN LIBERATION FRONT HAS

CLAIMED RESPONSIBILITY .

- I AM SURE THAT THE AMERICANS ARE GOING TO GO AFTER THE

PERPETRATORS OF THIS TERRORIST ACT WITH A " VENGENCE " !

AMERICA IS GOING TO GET TOUGH WITH OTHER NATIONS

AND ENFORCE PEACE TREATIES BETWEEN NATIONS.

Zakath
September 11th, 2001, 10:40 AM
All the while, thousands of Palestinians were celebrating the mass slaughter...http://sg.news.yahoo.com/010911/1/1fkyw.html and http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20010911/aponline114906_000.htm

I'll make a prohpecy here:
Israe'ls been waiting a long time for just this kind of excuse -- there's going to be a lot of dead Palestinians real soon. :(

christreport
September 11th, 2001, 11:36 AM
This is a real tragedy. It's a shame a lot of civilians have died (I hear the estimate from the WTC is about 10,000 deaths) and a lot of evil politicians will go on living in their underground bunkers,built with our money.

Huguenot
September 11th, 2001, 11:52 AM
Lord Help Us! We need to pray for those who are hurt and their families. Let us also pray for President Bush that he will make the right response. This is a very sad and tragic day.

Nineveh
September 11th, 2001, 11:54 AM
Amen

D__o__n
September 11th, 2001, 01:22 PM
Palestinian and Osama bin Laden groups have denied responsibility.

Which is expected....

The thing I think of that would make this *really* bad is if some McVeigh-types were behind this....

And the only thing I can think of that would be even worse is if some Army of God types were behind it....

Franciscan
September 11th, 2001, 02:16 PM
I work about 40-45 miles from the WTC, and I can see the smoke from here.

kiwimac
September 11th, 2001, 03:17 PM
:confused:

As far as I can tell NO ONE has claimed responsibility for these attacks, lets leave the finger pointing for later and work to help those affected by these attacks now.

The last thing the world needs is some US knee-jerk reaction, especially from a power with nuclear arms.

Let us also spend time in prayer for ALL those who died in this tragic situation

Kiwimac

tralon
September 11th, 2001, 04:57 PM
Nuke em! Everyone of those countries dancing in the streets laughing at us.The only way to deal with an evil force is to meet it with force.
I like what General Patton said," Your not here to die for your country, but your here to see the other bastard dies for his!" I couldn't agree more.

childrenofraven
September 11th, 2001, 06:32 PM
On this most unthinkable day in history.......let the sides stand together. Let the christians, pagans, jews, atheists, homosexuals, heterosexuals, and all others........let us all stand together as one. Let the differences lay down......let us all send them our hope. More people then ever in my current life need hope more then ever. So lay down your hate, bias, and opinions. Even if we all don't believe the same, let us stand as one, humans, together. And let us help the hurt.

Namaste.

rapt
September 11th, 2001, 08:28 PM
Let us pray and mourn for the dead and for their families.

Let us mourn for our own sins; we know not what tomorrow may bring.

Amen. Let us stand together to call on God for His mercy, and offer our support.

Trust not in the might of the flesh for deliverance from our enemies. If our country does not repent, there's no hope in military might anyway. Every honest soul acknowledges that we are deserving of destruction for our national sins, and have been for a long time.

I am not justifying the horrendous act at all. May justice be done upon the murderers and ALL their supporters. But vengeance belongs to God and He WILL repay. We ought to realize that God may be doing just that to our country. Deut 32:11-44 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Deut+32%3A11-44&version=KJV&showfn=yes&showxref=yes&language=english)

Isaiah 30
1
Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin:
2
That walk to go down into Egypt, and have not asked at my mouth; to strengthen themselves in the strength of Pharaoh, and to trust in the shadow of Egypt!
That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD:
10
Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:
11
Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us.
12
Wherefore thus saith the Holy One of Israel, Because ye despise this word, and trust in oppression and perverseness, and stay thereon:
13
Therefore this iniquity shall be to you as a breach ready to fall, swelling out in a high wall, whose breaking cometh suddenly at an instant.
14
And he shall break it as the breaking of the potters' vessel that is broken in pieces; he shall not spare: so that there shall not be found in the bursting of it a sherd to take fire from the hearth, or to take water withal out of the pit.

15
For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not.
16
But ye said, No; for we will flee upon horses; therefore shall ye flee: and, We will ride upon the swift; therefore shall they that pursue you be swift.
25
And there shall be upon every high mountain, and upon every high hill, rivers and streams of waters in the day of the great slaughter, when the towers fall.
27
Behold, the name of the LORD cometh from far, burning with his anger, and the burden thereof is heavy: his lips are full of indignation, and his tongue as a devouring fire:
28
And his breath, as an overflowing stream, shall reach to the midst of the neck, to sift the nations with the sieve of vanity: and there shall be a bridle in the jaws of the people, causing them to err.
30
And the LORD shall cause his glorious voice to be heard, and shall shew the lighting down of his arm, with the indignation of his anger, and with the flame of a devouring fire, with scattering, and tempest, and hailstones.
33
For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.

His_saving_Grac
September 11th, 2001, 10:54 PM
Originally posted by tralon
Nuke em! Everyone of those countries dancing in the streets laughing at us.The only way to deal with an evil force is to meet it with force.
I like what General Patton said," Your not here to die for your country, but your here to see the other bastard dies for his!" I couldn't agree more.
I have done a lot of praying today. I will continue to do a lot of praying for the rest of my life too. I now pray that your post was supposed to be sarcastic and not meant as a real belief.

The dead have no country anymore. The have only death. It matters not if it is 10,000 dead Americans, Iranians, Canadians, Austrians, Columbians, Britons, Soviets, Mexicans, Africans or any other nations. They belong now to God. Their former country is meaningless to them, and our grieving should be the same no matter who they were nor where they were born.

Do not let country stand in the way of God. His people are His people reguardless of where they lived. I guarentee you Christians, Jews, Muslims, and atheists and whatever other religion you can think of all died in these attacks today. They all need the equal amount of prayers, as do their families.

10,000+ souls died in these attacks. Not 10,000 plus Americans, but 10,000+ of Gods creation died, They are not OURS they are HIS.

D__o__n
September 12th, 2001, 07:34 AM
Warning, my brethren in Christ.

Don't let this tragedy be used to further a one world government, either.

Don't ask me to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with someone who does not believe that Christ is the only way to God, and don't expect me to give a false impression that living a life of sin is okay by shouting "down with the terrorists!" with the homosexuals.

In this time of tragedy, more than anything else, realize that WE ALL NEED GOD!!!

Sealeaf
September 12th, 2001, 08:10 AM
I don''t think you need to worry about standing shoulder to shoulder with homosexuals, or working with them either, I don't believe they can do you any harm from those positions.
Matter of fact, if you can keep your pants on you should be ok.;)

Seriouly we have some real enemies. If you want to hate some one, hate them. I personally can generate some pretty intense love for a homosexual cop who died to get people out of the WTC. Homosexual EMTs are welcome to save my life too.

I think this attact has done for America what twenty years of peace could not, it has gone a long way toward healing the damage we did to ourselves in the Vietnam War. I find myself in whole hearted support of my government, even if it is headed by "W".

Projill
September 12th, 2001, 09:04 AM
If you can still focus your discontent on the people that you believe aren't like you or aren't right with your god, then we are lost indeed. Because right now we have far greater concerns than that. What's worth saving if we can't come together and support each other on this, the day after the worst terrorist attack in history? Please, whatever you do, be kind to the Arab Americans and Arabs that are your friends. I'm scared for my friend Sarah who has lived in this country her entire life and who was threatened a great deal when the Murrah Federal building was bombed...she's Muslim and her family is from the middle east.

I sat in my best friend's apartment all day yesterday, my mouth agape, over the footage I was watching on TV. Right now I can't believe it happened. It's like out of a movie. Last night when my friends and I went to IHOP after our plethora of meetings (Amnesty International, N.O.W., our gay/straight alliance, the environmental group, etc.) I could not conceive of the fact that the world trade center wasn't there anymore. And that we were sitting at IHOP, so comfortably, when there were people dying in the rubble of New York's formerly tallest landmark. Right now one of my closest female friends is unsure whether or not her ex-boyfriend is even still alive.

If you can still waste your time condemning people in the midst of all this, you are a sorry person indeed. Because, when it all comes down to it, at our most basic, we are all alike: human.

Four O'Clock
September 12th, 2001, 09:14 AM
.....if Mao Tse Tung and Chiang Kai Shaek could put their differences on hold during the 30's and 40's to defend themselves against Japan, then how difficult can it be to suspend our moral judgements against our neighbors for a time and stand together as one against this madness?.....

tralon
September 12th, 2001, 09:54 AM
This was Saving Grace's quote; "The dead have NO COUNTRY anymore. The have only death. It matters NOT if it is 10,000 dead Americans...."

It matters to me some terrorist scumbags are free in this world and rejoicing over the deaths of thousands of Americans.It matters to me when I see the happy faces of Palestine people LAUGHING and rejoicing at the trajedy that has happened in America.It matters to me that over 200 brave New York firemen and policemen gave their lives to try to save others.These were DEFENSELESS American men, women and possibly CHILDREN. Does it matter? If it doesn't matter to you, then go back to your anti American country.And if there was a war, guess what? If I were younger and could enlist, I volunteer to be in the first wave.And if you were in my way, I roll over your anti american butt with the tracks of my tank and say back, "that's for the 50,000 dead you said that didn't matter."

Projill
September 12th, 2001, 10:09 AM
Tralon, you're missing the point. The point is that all these humans, people who lived and breathed and had family and friends, people who were religionists and atheists, people who were gay, straight, bisexual, or whatever...they're no longer with us. And that is a true tragedy. It's not anti-American to say that their nationality is unimportant. It's just a fact. Their nationality is unimportant now. It doesn't matter if they were American, Mexican, Korean, Indian, or whatever. It would be just as great a tragedy to me if it were 10,000 Japanese who had died yesterday. What matters is that they are deceased and that there are people who lost someone yesterday. There are people who lost more than one loved one yesterday. What matters is that we rescue people for as long as we can. What matters is that we remain civilized and don't take out our anger over the situation on our brothers and sisters who are from the middle east and had no part in this tragedy. What matters is that we support each other and love each other and respect each other. This is a time to unite, not to divide.

His_saving_Grac
September 12th, 2001, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by D__o__n
Warning, my brethren in Christ.

Don't let this tragedy be used to further a one world government, either.

Don't ask me to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with someone who does not believe that Christ is the only way to God, and don't expect me to give a false impression that living a life of sin is okay by shouting "down with the terrorists!" with the homosexuals.

In this time of tragedy, more than anything else, realize that WE ALL NEED GOD!!! How would you ever know if you were? Do you HONESTLY believe the stereotypes on TV?

Homosexuality isn't branded on a person. Many work side by side with us, go to the bar with us, come over and eat dinner with us, and we NEVER know unless they decide to tell us.

If you can't stand shoulder to shoulder with everyone in unity against evil, then maybe you aren't standing as close to Christ as you think/presume.

His_saving_Grac
September 12th, 2001, 11:22 AM
Originally posted by tralon
This was Saving Grace's quote; "The dead have NO COUNTRY anymore. The have only death. It matters NOT if it is 10,000 dead Americans...."

It matters to me some terrorist scumbags are free in this world and rejoicing over the deaths of thousands of Americans.It matters to me when I see the happy faces of Palestine people LAUGHING and rejoicing at the trajedy that has happened in America.It matters to me that over 200 brave New York firemen and policemen gave their lives to try to save others.These were DEFENSELESS American men, women and possibly CHILDREN. Does it matter? If it doesn't matter to you, then go back to your anti American country.And if there was a war, guess what? If I were younger and could enlist, I volunteer to be in the first wave.And if you were in my way, I roll over your anti american butt with the tracks of my tank and say back, "that's for the 50,000 dead you said that didn't matter."

That's two tralon. I fought in my war. You never fought in ANYTHING. I fought for the US in Panama. I was their for 5 years prior to that. I enlisted of my own vololition. I went to Korea to protect the US. Olympians.

What have YOU done? You sit here and whine about what you WOULD do, when you KNOW you can't do it. I went out and DID it!

You are still in the first wave, tralon. You are in the first wave of racist who will condemn the innocent for the deaths of the innocent before finding out the truth. God pray you never get jury duty, or have your hands in a critical thinking situation, because you sure have shown critical thinking is NOT a strong point with you.

D__o__n
September 12th, 2001, 12:17 PM
Isn't that sweet? (tone is sarcastic for those that don't catch it)

Because I say "don't ask me to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with homosexuals," y'all automatically assume that I'm full of "hatred" and that I'm "condemning" people.

Nothing is further from the truth. Except maybe y'all.

'Cause the truth is, ya ain't gettin inta heaven on your good looks. Ya ain't gettin inta heaven because you denounced the tragedy that was heaped upon us yesterday. And standing shoulder-to-shoulder with those that say YOU ain't gettin inta heaven because you don't worship their version of God, and/or giving the appearance of acceptance of evil by standing with those that openly sin, ain't gonna get ya inta heaven, either.

There is only one way into heaven, and it's being offered to you even as you read this; not by me, but by God Himself.

If I say "don't expect me to give a false impression that living a life of sin is okay by shouting "down with the terrorists!" with the homosexuals," THAT'S what I'm railing against. Not that he/she is a homosexual, but that they're sinning in the eyes of God.

So pay attention to what I'm saying, and not what you think I'm saying based on your narrow-minded preconceived notions, or what you want me to be saying to give credence to your "everyone can get to heaven in their own way" crapola.

And don't worry; I don't hate anyone. I love them enough to tell them they're doing wrong, but I don't hate anyone. Hate is a work of the flesh, and is expressly mentioned in Galatians 5:19-21 as something we should avoid.

And as for your Arab friends...I feel for them. They're in danger right now from intellectually-challenged redneck dweebs who see only their nationality, and don't care whether they were involved with or supported the tragedy....

His_saving_Grac
September 12th, 2001, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by D__o__n
Isn't that sweet? (tone is sarcastic for those that don't catch it)

Because I say "don't ask me to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with homosexuals," y'all automatically assume that I'm full of "hatred" and that I'm "condemning" people.

Nothing is further from the truth. Except maybe y'all.

'Cause the truth is, ya ain't gettin inta heaven on your good looks. Ya ain't gettin inta heaven because you denounced the tragedy that was heaped upon us yesterday. And standing shoulder-to-shoulder with those that say YOU ain't gettin inta heaven because you don't worship their version of God, and/or giving the appearance of acceptance of evil by standing with those that openly sin, ain't gonna get ya inta heaven, either.

There is only one way into heaven, and it's being offered to you even as you read this; not by me, but by God Himself.

If I say "don't expect me to give a false impression that living a life of sin is okay by shouting "down with the terrorists!" with the homosexuals," THAT'S what I'm railing against. Not that he/she is a homosexual, but that they're sinning in the eyes of God.

So pay attention to what I'm saying, and not what you think I'm saying based on your narrow-minded preconceived notions, or what you want me to be saying to give credence to your "everyone can get to heaven in their own way" crapola.

And don't worry; I don't hate anyone. I love them enough to tell them they're doing wrong, but I don't hate anyone. Hate is a work of the flesh, and is expressly mentioned in Galatians 5:19-21 as something we should avoid.

And as for your Arab friends...I feel for them. They're in danger right now from intellectually-challenged redneck dweebs who see only their nationality, and don't care whether they were involved with or supported the tragedy....

Noce song. I liked it in sunday school. Very inapropriate here though.

You don't hate ANYONE, yet you say "And for your arab friends..." You have tried judged and found guilty and condemned an entire race for the acts of a few. But that isn't hate. It never is to people who deny their hate.

We asked for unity. Can you HONESTLY say you have never shaken hands with a homosexual? That none of your friends are homosexual? Co-workers?

The fact is you do hate. It is of the flesh, and you allow it to rule you too. I don't really care who you stand shoulder and shoulder with as long as you DO stand shoulder to shoulder.

The "arabs" as you think, didn't do this. Certain individuals born into that race probably did. I have arab friends, and doctors, and cops, and firefighters. they are as outraged as I am. But to YOU they are all the same. The ARABS did it. Well, to those who are dancing in the street, the AMERICANS did it. Funny how you and they think the same. Don't you notice the similarities?

Those who did this will be found. They will be punished. But they are NOT an entire nation nor an entire people. Just like we have rednecks, radicals, white supremists, shristians who support, christians who reject, ....et all. Basically people who think millions of different ways on the same subject, they do too. NO RACE CAN BE GROUPED AND STEREOTYPED! To do so, lets yourself open to hate.

So you hate. Now deny it and see how much better your life can be. :eek:

tralon
September 12th, 2001, 05:49 PM
Just remember what you said. if some of your terrorists friends blow up your wife or children in a plane or building someday? See if you'll be so understanding then eh? As for being a war vet, I don't believe that either.Next, you'll tell me you commanded a crew of Apache helicopters. The real hereos are dead, while big mouths like you brag about what they never did at all.

Projill
September 12th, 2001, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by tralon
Just remember what you said. if some of your terrorists friends blow up your wife or children in a plane or building someday? See if you'll be so understanding then eh? As for being a war vet, I don't believe that either.Next, you'll tell me you commanded a crew of Apache helicopters. The real hereos are dead, while big mouths like you brag about what they never did at all.

Well, that post was chock full of Christian love and tolerance and that turning the other cheek stuff. Are you ever capable of thinking rationally?

His_saving_Grac
September 12th, 2001, 08:08 PM
Originally posted by tralon
Just remember what you said. if some of your terrorists friends blow up your wife or children in a plane or building someday? See if you'll be so understanding then eh? As for being a war vet, I don't believe that either.Next, you'll tell me you commanded a crew of Apache helicopters. The real hereos are dead, while big mouths like you brag about what they never did at all.

I really don't care what you believe. You are someone who NEVER volunteered for ANYTHING in his entire life, but sits beside the TV and screams about the injustice in the world. You will NEVER do anything about it, just whine like a litle girl.

You disgust me. You cry about christianity, but you know nothing about it. You talk the talk, but have spent your life too cowardly to walk the walk. Shut up and do something or just shut up.

surreal
September 12th, 2001, 08:53 PM
I wrote this in about 20 minutes for honors English today because we had to write about the recent tragedies. I dunno if anyone will find meaning in it, but it really does mean something.

You'll probably notice I did a little BS in there and some 'story-esque' stuff because heck, everyone needs a good grade :)

--------

Tuesday morning I woke up and the clock said 6:07. I wake up around that time every day but when I went to get my towel so I could take a shower my mom said something along the lines about watching the news for a minute. I dropped the towel and went downstairs, still not quite awake. I looked at the colorful rectangle that is the screen of our television and saw the 767 fly into the exterior wall of the World Trade Center. I didn’t immediately recognize how horrific this event was. The first thing that shook me was that the world had just changed. Terrorists had showed up our entire government using public transportation. Things like this happen every day in movies and on television and in our minds. They aren’t supposed to happen in real life.
So there goes reality. I almost missed the bus because I was watching the news, waiting for a number like everyone else. On the bus ride to school I was hit with how every news station was spitting out numbers, and I thought how that was all we had left. It is much easier to take things quantitatively that qualitatively, because numbers seem so solid, but so abstract at the same time. If I told you your mother died it is much harder than telling you that one person died. The public wanted numbers, not names. Except the ones who knew they were going to suffer for the answers. The politicians said that terrorists are trying to create chaos. I learned in a very real way for the first time on Tuesday that nothing is perfect.
The politicians are trying to declare war. People aren’t the problem it is the concept of terrorism that is the problem. How do you declare war against an idea? How do you defeat an idea? The only way to crush one idea is with another. You can’t physically attack an idea. You can attack the people who started it, but the idea won’t go away. When I first read this bit of philosophy I thought, “Right. So we need an idea to stop terrorism.” The problem with that is, it is actually the other way around. Terrorism is an idea to stop establishment, a solution for something that doesn’t seem like a problem in the first place. Problems are relative.
The problem for the terrorists could have been a lot of things. It could be establishment, religion, capitalism, or retaliation for past occurrences. The list goes on. For the U.S. the problem is the terrorists, the concept of terrorism, the attacks on innocent civilians, the list extends further here too. What seems almost comical about it is that after all this time we’re still following Hammurabi’s code. We still think an eye for an eye is the best way. Shakespeare once said, “The rarer action lies in virtue not in vengeance.” In principal everyone agrees that it is best to forgive and forget. No one is going to forget where they were when they found out the World Trade Center went down. I was waking up. It was 6:07.

----------

His_saving_Grac
September 12th, 2001, 09:10 PM
An excellent paper. And very true. Don't worry about the need for adding the feelings in there. It makes it come to life. And you are very right about the numbers. The names strike to hard, too fast. They will come, and they will come the day these sick individuals who planned this see God. And they will feel the pain 1000 fold that each of the dead felt, for each of the dead.

D__o__n
September 13th, 2001, 06:32 AM
You're a very funny person, Saving Grace. You also have a reading comprehension problem.

Someone mentioned, in a post previous to mine, that they have Arab friends who are being persecuted.

Now, let's look at your reading comprehension problem. You picked out "your arab friends..." Let's look at the next four words: I feel for them.

WHOOPS. That was a statement of hatred, wasn't it?

How about the wording I used next? They're in danger right now from intellectually-challenged redneck dweebs who see only their nationality, and don't care whether they were involved with or supported the tragedy....

I suggest, Saving Grace, you get off your moral high horse and learn to read. Oh, and while you're at it: Learn the difference between "judging" and "condemning."

Have I shaken hands with homosexuals? Worked with them? You betcha. And while I was shaking hands, and smiling, and being friendly, I told them that God didn't like what they were doing, that He wanted them in heaven with him, but that they were going to have to accept Christ as their savior and repent first.

How about you? You man enough to tell people when they're sinning? Or do you promote "there are many different roads to God"?

His_saving_Grac
September 13th, 2001, 05:43 PM
Lets see. You said
Let's look at the next four words: I feel for them. But not until AFTER you said
Isn't that sweet? (tone is sarcastic for those that don't catch it) Now please tell me when you decided that you were no longer sarcastic? Because the majority of your post WAS sarcastic, and I had to take THAT as sarcastic too. Remember, feeling change the meanings of sentences, and feelings do NOT come across in the written word unless you STATE your feelings. You stated sarcasm. You never stated you were done using it.


I suggest, Saving Grace, you get off your moral high horse and learn to read. Oh, and while you're at it: Learn the difference between "judging" and "condemning."
I know the difference. Most christians don't or when they think they do, they use the term "judging righteously!" as if God gave them special knowledge in judging.

And you are doing this judging yourself since my post WASN'T an attack on you. I never put you down.


Have I shaken hands with homosexuals? Worked with them? You betcha. And while I was shaking hands, and smiling, and being friendly, I told them that God didn't like what they were doing, that He wanted them in heaven with him, but that they were going to have to accept Christ as their savior and repent first. That's wonderful :) . But my question was about those you DON'T know about? Are you saying you know the sexual preferences of EVERY person you have ever come in contact with?

Again, my point was to stand together in unison against those who attacked and killed these people from a cowardly position. I never asked you more.


How about you? You man enough to tell people when they're sinning? Or do you promote "there are many different roads to God"? You really don't know me. I post in many boards. I am called the "bleacher preacher" in one baseball forum because of my use of scripture and telling people when they are acting in an unchristian manner. And if or when you see more of my posts here, you will see I do the same. I am no where near perfect, and I know I have my faults. But one of them usually isn't belittling someone (except when someone calls me on my military background and insults like tralon. To the rest I appologise for having to read what I said to him)

All I said about you was you hate. This response of yours was full of anger and anger leads to hate. All I ASKED you to do was
So you hate. Now deny it and see how much better your life can be.:eek: That wasn't a belittling remark, it was showing that you do hate, just as all of us do. That is part of being human and not being Gods. We have emotions and they sometimes rule us. This was a request to try (just as we all try ) to deny that feeling.

surreal
September 13th, 2001, 05:49 PM
The problem is that you refuse to see any other way to God, or even to see that maybe there is no path to God at all. Until you are willing to accept others may think differently, there is no point in you discussing anything on these forums. If you can't even understand how someone would dissagree with you or accept that you might be wrong, you won't discuss anything, just randomly shout out your opinions. That won't change anyone's minds, just affirm your self-righteousness.

His_saving_Grac
September 13th, 2001, 06:02 PM
Just wondering who your post is directed at. You didn't state towards whom.

If it was for me, that's not true about how I am. I sit here and read much more than I post. I see all sides of the issues. There are many many topics here I have read that I haven't formed any conclusions on them, as those who DO know are still talking their sides, and I have alot to learn.

But of course we all have our opinions. And this forum is a perfect place to post those opinions, many of which get shot down.

The problem is many do love to shoot down the opinion with personal attacks. That hurts. It should be discussed instead, but too many don't like to do that.

Anyway, I pray you are having a good day and you and yours are blessed by His light.:)

rapt
September 13th, 2001, 10:40 PM
Matt 5:43
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46
For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47
And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Luke 6:24
But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.
25
Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.
26
Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
27
But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
28
Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
29
And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.
30
Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
31
And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
32
For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33
And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
34
And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35
But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36
Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
37
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven

Does "judge not" only apply to those who want to judge YOU? Look at the context here! Jesus is OBVIOUSLY talking about judging and condemning those that you don't really want to forgive, isn't He?

46
And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
47
Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
48
He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
49
But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

IS JESUS REALLY OUR LORD, OR NOT? WHAT DO WE REALLY TRUST, ANYWAY? The Lord, or our own strength? (We often hear preachers say "you can't do 'it' in your own strength". Is "it" only applicable to walking obediently in some things, or is it applicable to everything we do?

John 18
36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

If Jesus wouldn't let His servants defend HIM with carnal weapons of war (sword, gun, bomb, napalm), how much less worthy is a mere worldly nation of the sacrifice of our bodies? Shall we kill our enemies seeking to secure an earthly nation, and think we are doing God a service? Do we seek a "continuing city" on this earth?

Hebrews 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

Heb 11:8
By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go.
10
For he looked forward to the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

13
These all died in faith, not having received what was promised, but having seen it and greeted it from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.
14
For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland.
15
If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return.
16
But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.

Abraham knew the true inheritance is not of this world.


Matthew 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

2 Corinthians 10
3
For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4
(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
5
Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ


Matthew 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

Remember the Crusades? They thought THEY were doing God a service, didn't they? Don't we see their works as those of madmen today? Indeed they were. Let us learn from them, and not repeat such madness.

Can one love his enemy and KILL him?

Was Jesus a "gutless pacifist"?

I think not.

Were all the martyrs of Jesus throughout the history of the world, who refused to resist their murderers "gutless pacifists"?

They were TRUE Christians.

D__o__n
September 14th, 2001, 08:05 AM
Reading comprehension problem still applies, Saving Grace.

I do not hate anyone. You don't believe that; you don't have to. Like you said, I don't know you; and you don't know me.

If you did, you'd know that I profess "righteous judgement"...but not to the tune of Enyart and his crowd.

(For those that are just now figuring it out, yes, I'm that "Don" from some time back, that ticked off a LOT of people...figure that means I'll be banned from this board sometime over the next few days....)

Saving Grace, your explanation proves the problem with reading comprehension. I suggest that in the future, you read my words for what they say, not what you *think* they're saying. In other words, read them twice.

Let me simplify one thing for you: We are to judge. In this phrase, Mr. Enyart is correct. However, we are NOT to judge to condemnation (i.e., we are not to condemn). But each time we determine that something is sinful, we have "judged." Each time we tell someone that what they're doing is wrong, we have "judged." And we are supposed to do that!

What we have to teach people is that the admonition to "judge not" is speaking about hypocrisy.

Saving Grace, look at my last few lines again: "They're in danger right now from intellectually-challenged redneck dweebs who see only their nationality, and don't care whether they were involved with or supported the tragedy...." That should have put my statement "and as for your arab friends...I feel for them" in context. But you prefer to place the blame on me, and insist that I "hate."

Should I now make the claim that you "hate" me because of your perception that I'm a "hater"? If I do, I'm using the same criteria that you've used: casual glancing over of your posts, and the way you're railing against me.

There was no hatred in my post AT ALL. Lots of sarcasm, yes, but compare it to Maranatha's posts, where he apparently endorses nuking the entire Middle East.

I do not hate anyone, Saving Grace. You don't believe that; and you don't have to. I've said it. Based on what you say about not being able to tell anything about anyone because we're in "print media," you either have to take it at face value, or prove otherwise.

D__o__n
September 14th, 2001, 08:25 AM
Surreal, you are SO wrong. During my lifetime, I've been a Methodist, a Mormon, an agnostic, and I even delved into karma for a while. And that's just a few of the explorations I've done.

I've explored other paths, and whether there's a god or not.

THERE IS! AND THERE'S ONLY 1 WAY TO HIM!

Jesus Christ said, I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

He didn't say "there are many paths, and it doesn't matter which one you take." He didn't say, "Feel free to do whatever YOU think is necessary to get into heaven."

There is only 1 way. There is only 1 truth. There is only 1 life. And they are all three the same path.

Just something for you to think about. The next time you want to say we don't understand the other point(s) of view, consider that you didn't ask if we understood the other point of view (i.e., you committed the same error you accused us of).

His_saving_Grac
September 14th, 2001, 12:29 PM
Reading comprehension problem still applies, Saving Grace.

Yes it does Don. It appears you are still reading that my posts were an attack on YOU. So let me say it as clearly as I can. I am NOT attacking DON the PERSON whatever his/her real name is!

No if you are talking about MY reading comprehension, since you are having problems with others understanding you, maybe it is writing comprehension that is the problem right now? Are you open to that possibility? That is NOT an attack, but an observation.


If you did, you'd know that I profess "righteous judgement"...but not to the tune of Enyart and his crowd. Neither do I


(For those that are just now figuring it out, yes, I'm that "Don" from some time back, that ticked off a LOT of people...figure that means I'll be banned from this board sometime over the next few days....) I saw many others get banned after you (I would assume, because I didn't see you get banned but I did see their posts say they were banned). For some reason, just before they get banned, they get called "zadig". I have no idea what the moderators mean by that as I do not find that name in the bible.



Saving Grace, your explanation proves the problem with reading comprehension. I suggest that in the future, you read my words for what they say, not what you *think* they're saying. In other words, read them twice. No, actually it doesn't prove that. All it proves is you believe we have a misunderstnding and that you assume it is all on my part and the part of others, and not on the WAY you are presenting your case. As far as reading what one "thinks" someone is saying, aren't you doing the same thing to me?


Let me simplify one thing for you: We are to judge That is very simple for you to say. It is NOT simple for you to prove. The only places that appears is in letters to CHURCH LEADERS by Paul to his churches while he was out or in jail. Thye were NOT directed to each and every person in the populace. In fact, until the scripture became available to all, only the church was allowed to judge, and everything they said was "righteous" even when they had the inqusition, the holy wars, the witchhunts, when they had Gallileo arrested, when Copernicus was so afraid that he only stated that the earth revolved around the sun when he was already dying because the church "righteously judged" that anyone claiming that the Earth revolved around the sun was a heretic. Do you need more examples of how great we are at "judging righteously" or even judging correctly? I will leave it to the only one who can actually see all and knows all.


What we have to teach people is that the admonition to "judge not" is speaking about hypocrisy. To be a hypocrate is to be a greek actor. That is what a hypocrate was. There is no proof that THAT is what it means. Take the book at face value and not at what you "think" it means just like you admonished me in the first sentence. If I have so much trouble understanding what YOU are saying (and everyone else is too) then how much harder is it for any of us to decide what JESUS said. He never told us to judge. Paul did. Jesus said "only he who sent me can judge" I don't think that was you lol :D


the way you're railing against me. I'm very sure I made that clear that I wasn't. Again, it's that read the words and not what you think is in the words. My words have stated, now for the third time, I am NOT ATTACKING YOU. :(


Lots of sarcasm, yes As you admit there was lot's of sarcasm. My question was when did you stop using the sarcasm. You never stated you were done using it, so I read it the way it was presented,"note the sarcasm". Remember sating that? That is why I took your entire post to be sarcastic. I explained why. Now please explain why you want it to seem I am attacking you?


I do not hate anyone, Saving Grace Never said you did. I said you hate. There are many things to hate. I hate the cowardness of this attack. I HATE.I have to try and deny that hate and make it make me stronger in my love. You hate the idea of homosexuality. I am sure there are other things, ideals you hate. It is human. But I didn't say you hate a pearson, just that you hate. To deny that would be to try and place yourself on a higher level than God, since he too has stated his hate.

Anyway that was my statement.

Again, I pray for all those who have suffered from thsi tragedy and those who will suffer in the reprecussions to come. I pray you understand I am not attacking you. I pray that I will understand you. I finish my prayer asking for the largest understanding of all in understanding the Lord and what He wants from me. Amen.

D__o__n
September 14th, 2001, 12:49 PM
In a LOT of ways, we're too much alike.

The ONLY thing I will address is your statement that we are only told by Paul to judge. I disagree. John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgement.

Jesus said that. Why? Because He was telling the Pharisees that they were wrong for telling Him not to do anything on the sabbath. They were judging according to the appearance, and not judging what was actually being done.

In Matthew 7, where we are told to "judge not," we are NOT being told to not judge. The phrasing goes like this: "judge not lest ye be judged; for by what measure ye judge, the same shall be meted out." A warning against hypocrisy, pure and simple. The explanation is, don't condemn your neighbor for breaking one of the 600-odd laws when you're breaking about 37 of them yourself.

So the question really comes down to: Did Jesus tell us not to judge, or did He tell us to judge? One must reconcile these two passages, and figure how they agree; otherwise, one must conclude that God is contradicting Himself, and is therefore an author of confusion.

Care to start a new thread? Or e-mail me so we can discuss this further?

Amadis
September 14th, 2001, 01:10 PM
The Christian INDIVIDUAL's response to the WTC atrocity is to pray for those who did it (those still alive), that they might be won to Christ's gospel and God's love; to forgive those who sincerely seek forgiveness, and to take prudent but nonviolent measures to protect oneself from future physical danger.

The Christian NATION's response (or the response of any nation) should be to rain a hellstorm of fire and death and destruction and pain and horror and unimaginable suffering on anyone connected with the atrocity. To obliterate participants and accessories before and after the fact, and to blast away with skin-flaying force, mercilessly -- for years and years if need be -- at those who might have anything to do with terrorism, either as an individual or as a nation. To reduce to a paste of blood and ash any military or paramilitary structure or body of men that set their faces against us.

Zakath
September 14th, 2001, 02:48 PM
Amadis,

Eloquent piece, as usual.

One question bothers me after reading it though...

If a nation is to rain hellish punishment upon the perpetrators of such acts and the Christians are not, who gets the task of reducing the enemy into "a paste of blood and ash"?

Do you envision that activity reserved for us non-believers only, or can you Christians participate as well?

Nihilo
September 14th, 2001, 03:07 PM
The American Commercial Airline Industry is currently the single greatest threat to the Nation's Security. That must be properly dealt with so that it is no longer true.

We are at war, whether it is against a state, or an individual. The rules of the game have changed. Although we may be the best at the old rules (Cold war, desert storm), there doesn't seem to be anybody playing that way anymore. New rules means we need to learn them and become proficient at them, soon.

I think issuing knives to all airline passengers is better than forbidding them, personally. Just try to hijack a plane with anywhere from 50-150 angry, knife-wielding passengers on board, each willing to die for the cause of bringing the plane down in an unhabited area rather than a skyscraper!

It's probably not likely that hijacking a passenger airliner and ramming it into buildings is going to work anymore. People no longer naively believe that hijackers are content to take over the plane and ransom the passengers, so they will revolt, and sacrifice themselves. Unfortunately, these "soldiers" will probably continue to try until it definitely doesn't work! (After Tuesday's tremendous success, would you be disheartened if you were one of these Islamic radicals?)

His_saving_Grac
September 14th, 2001, 03:28 PM
Jesus said that. Why? Because He was telling the Pharisees that they were wrong for telling Him not to do anything on the sabbath I think you know this, but some may not so I will say it for them. The pharisees were the law holders. They were part of the clergy, the "doctors" of the Jewish Law. The scribes were the "lawyers" of the law. That is who is being told how to "judge".

Jesus got very upset a lot at the steadfast holding to the letter of the law instead of the spirit of the law, which is what the "doctors" and "lawyers" of the law of Moses were supposed to be in charge of.

So in effect, he still isn't talking to us but to the church heirarchy that was in place at the temple. We also should try to judge rightly (not righteously), which in effect, would curb our condemnation of many things.


Care to start a new thread? Or e-mail me so we can discuss this further I would love for this to be a thread that we could talk about without the hate and anger, but I doubt that would happen given the beliefs of the moderators here. Too many individuals have trouble getting rid of their hates and discussing something as important as thiswithout pulling up Pauls preaching and showing why we should hate, judge and attack what we disagree with, and the individuals involved. I have already seen one such thread started in the old forum and the temp forum. Both had the moderators in there quoting Paul and Bob Enyart and getting upset with any that disagreed. That is where I saw a few people banned.

So I leave the choice up to you. It you DO start a new thread, please post here as I don't get a lot of time to read ALL the topics, so I may miss it if few people respond and it doesn't make it to the new posts area when I do get on.

Bless you again.

His_saving_Grac
September 14th, 2001, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by Amadis
The Christian INDIVIDUAL's response to the WTC atrocity is to pray for those who did it (those still alive), that they might be won to Christ's gospel and God's love; to forgive those who sincerely seek forgiveness, and to take prudent but nonviolent measures to protect oneself from future physical danger.

The Christian NATION's response (or the response of any nation) should be to rain a hellstorm of fire and death and destruction and pain and horror and unimaginable suffering on anyone connected with the atrocity. To obliterate participants and accessories before and after the fact, and to blast away with skin-flaying force, mercilessly -- for years and years if need be -- at those who might have anything to do with terrorism, either as an individual or as a nation. To reduce to a paste of blood and ash any military or paramilitary structure or body of men that set their faces against us.

I am confused now. Where is the Christian nation? Isn't it made up of Christian individuals where ever it is? So how can it do opposites? Or should they pray for them as they are dropping hellfire on thier heads?

Should we warn them so the innocents can leave first? Or do we kill the innocents with their leaders? Do we KNOW for a fact that not one christian is living there so we won't be doing the same as they did to us?

I noticed your last line. Any military or paramilitary structure or body of men (and women too I presume) that set their faces against us .

Hmmmm so if they don't like the way we did something, blow them away too?

I am glad I am a christian individual, but I am even MORE happy I am not a citizen of this christian nation you mention. I don't think I could stand to look at a person suffering the agonies you have described, and because I couldn't watch from up close an personal, then I couldn't order that done either. I am a firm believer of "If I won't do it myself, I sure won't order someone else to do it."


should be to rain a hellstorm of fire and death and destruction and pain and horror and unimaginable suffering on anyone connected with the atrocity. To obliterate participants and accessories before and after the fact, and to blast away with skin-flaying force, mercilessly -- for years and years if need be -- at those who might have anything to do with terrorism, either as an individual or as a nation. To reduce to a paste of blood and ash
Could you HONESTLY say you could stand there and WATCH them feel this to MIILIONS of individuals? If YOU can't then YOU shouldn't ask for it. If you CAN, then you missed your calling. They needed you in Germany from 1930-1945.

D__o__n
September 14th, 2001, 06:52 PM
Ah, but Saving Grace, that was just the point that I brought up oh-so-long ago.

Paul's preaching does NOT condone hating, or even condemning. Don't even get me started with that blatant misuse of Romans 12:9. Paul's preaching, just as Christ's, does say we should stand up for those things that are right and good in God's eyes (something I know you agree with).

In fact, Paul was taught by Christ, so therefore what Christ taught, is just as applicable as what Paul taught.

The further error usually involved with that is that Paul taught, in nearly all cases, exactly what Peter, James, and John taught.

Now, as for your "judge rightly rather than judge righteously" statement: I humbly submit to you that if we are judging righteously, then we will be judging rightly.

And don't get me started on the misuse of that "judge rightly" thing, either, cause Jesus did NOT praise a man for judging rightly....

surreal
September 14th, 2001, 09:53 PM
I lost track of this post. Thanks for your replies, no the post was directed at D__o__n.

I could direct my accusation at myself actually. Will I accept any other way? Why do you think I am on these forums? I read these posts and see what I think. For example, Bob is finally getting to me with his anti-evolutionist stuff. I still believe in parts of it but I see a point in his "that is a lot of just-by-chance" stuff. I don't have a lot of faith in chance actually... so it is starting to get to me :)

Anyway, seeing as there is no God in what you call "karma" which isn't a religion anyway... I think you are looking for Buddhism but I'm not sure since there is more than one way of life reflecting the existence of karma.

My problem is when people say "Well you are wrong because God said so." You can't argue with someone who tells you that every time you make a valid point you are wrong, because God says so. Logic cannot defend itself against "Goddidit" arguments because the people so blindly believe in God that they won't even accept that logic works here. I am willing to explore other points of view. If you say "God exists" I don't bluntly say "No he doesn't" and not even leave room for further argument. See, it stops there. Here:


I've explored other paths, and whether there's a god or not.

THERE IS! AND THERE'S ONLY 1 WAY TO HIM!

See? That isn't logical. There is no way to argue with that. If he (you) can't even try to prove it to yourself or listen, there can be no discussion. There is no point in you being here if you have already decided there is only 1 way and you aren't willing to even consider a change.

His_saving_Grac
September 14th, 2001, 09:55 PM
Paul's preaching does NOT condone hating, or even condemning No, but it IS the one most used by those who condone "judging and judging righteously" I notice that the moderators are the only ones who really know what righteous judgement is, and everyone who disagrees is judging, but not righteously. THAT makes me laugh.


Paul's preaching, just as Christ's, does say we should stand up for those things that are right and good in God's eyes (something I know you agree with). Yup, I do.


In fact, Paul was taught by Christ, so therefore what Christ taught, is just as applicable as what Paul taught. Well HE says he was. And so far only 6 of the letters attributed to Paul (of 14) are actually authentic.
I, personally, am not sure about it since there are three different versions of the appearance of Jesus and what happened next to him or his followers. But I am looking for reasons to lose that mistrust.


The further error usually involved with that is that Paul taught, in nearly all cases, exactly what Peter, James, and John taught. Not really. James actually started the Nazareen church. He was James the Just (or James the lessor). The Nazorite teachings were claimed to be heretical, as were the teachings of Thomas. The story of Andrew, Peter and Paul actually is quite different if you read Barnabas (who actually travelled with Paul for most of his life and wrote down his actions as it happened.) Again, the Book of Barnabas wasn't accepted because the church felt it was contrary to what they were presenting. So it was deemed apocolyptic.


And don't get me started on the misuse of that "judge rightly" thing, either, cause Jesus did NOT praise a man for judging rightly.... Yup. I agree. Shhhhh the moderators are watching lol.

rapt
September 15th, 2001, 12:56 AM
Saving grace: >>To be a hypocrate is to be a greek actor. That is what a hypocrate was.<<

It's no wonder you can't understand Don if that's the depth of your understanding of the word hypocrit.

Saving grace: >>He (Jesus) never told us to judge. Paul did. Jesus said "only he who sent me can judge" I don't think that was you lol <<

Jesus told the Saducees: "Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures."

John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

Luke 12:57 Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?


Jesus was only repeating the same thing Moses taught:

Leviticus 19:15 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.

Deuteronomy 25:1 If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that the judges may judge them; then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked.

The word "judge" doesn't have to appear within the text in order for us to understand our responsibility to do so, such as is the case in:

5
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

(to "see clearly" is clearly "judging")

6
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

(One must excersize just "judgment" to discern who a dog or a swine is)

15
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

(Who without just judgment can know who is a false prophet and who is a sheep? "Ye shall know them" is a clear indication that we should excercise just judgment based on thier deeds and words compared to the commandments of the Word of God)

Isn't it ironic that the above scriptures all appear in the same chapter that begins like this:

1
Judge not, that ye be not judged.

It is so utterly SHALLOW to read one verse of a chapter and run with it as if one knows what is being said. Context, context, context, or else one will be smugly content with a pretext. Let us practice proper exegesis, which is based on context and other like scriptures, rather than eisegesis resulting from the neglect of both. Adding to or taking from the true meaning of a text is no light matter. (Rev 22:18,19 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Rev+22%3A18%2C19&version=KJV&showfn=yes&showxref=yes&language=english)) Remember the man who tried to stabilize the ark of the covenant when it was in route, but whom God struck dead because he didn't honor the proper way to transport it? (2Sam 6:5-7 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=2SAM+6:5-7&language=english&version=KJV&showfn=off))


The entire chapter (Mat 7) is clearly saying not to judge unrighteously, but righteously. It is clearly not saying to forsake judgment altogether, as so many shallow and unread believers suppose.

2
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest (judgest) not the beam that is in thine own eye?

"If we will JUDGE OURSELVES, we should not be judged", says Paul (1Cor 11:31). Paul's gospel is NO DIFFERENT THAN CHRIST'S GOSPEL.

Zakath
September 15th, 2001, 07:28 AM
With all this judgement scripture flying around, don't forget Paul's instruction, the one that is most applicable for you religionists...


"What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. 'Expel the wicked man from among you.'" - I Cor. 5:12-13

If the apostle Paul says it wasn't any of his business, why do so many Christians today try to make judgements of those outside their religion their business?

surreal
September 15th, 2001, 07:58 AM
That was a good quote and good timing for this situation.

The problem is, the bible contradicts itself so much they can just quote it a hundred more times saying the exact opposite.

Zakath
September 15th, 2001, 08:13 AM
Originally posted by surreal
The problem is, the bible contradicts itself so much they can just quote it a hundred more times saying the exact opposite.

One of several reasons I am not a Christian...

Nazirite
September 15th, 2001, 09:38 AM
rapt,

Judge not.

D__o__n
September 15th, 2001, 02:14 PM
Surreal first.

I now accuse you of reading comprehension problems.

(However, based on Saving Grace's argument, if more than one person is having the same problem, then the problem is more than likely with me)

Did I not say that I already explored many points of view? Many paths?

The implication is that I've already tested the theories, and found an answer.

What you're asking me to do, by insisting that I consider alternative points of view, is to re-visit areas where I've already been.

That, my friend, is illogical. It's like saying, "we've already discovered uranium; but hey, let's discover it again."

And the fact that Mr. Enyart is convincing you of the illogicality (is that a word?) of some of the paths that you've already taken--thereby re-inforcing the argument and path I've presented to you--should tell you something....

D__o__n
September 15th, 2001, 02:19 PM
Now Zakath and Surreal:

ERROR! ERROR! DANGER, WILL ROBINSON!!!

The so-called "contradiction" you presented with 1 Cor 5:12 is easily answered by LEARNING HOW TO READ.


9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Wow. Taken in FULL CONTEXT (apparently something you are either reluctant to do, or were never taught to do), this passage tells Christians they are not to have anything to do with fornicators, or the covetous, or extortioners, etc., etc.

But gee whiz, **** Tracy--how do I know who's a fornicator, or covetous, or an extortioner?

(slapping head) By golly, that's right--by judging! (i.e., discerning)

I told Saving Grace that he needed to learn the difference between "judging" and "condemning"; I was wrong. YOU TWO do....

D__o__n
September 15th, 2001, 02:27 PM
Saving Grace:


But I am looking for reasons to lose that mistrust.

I'll give you just one: Faith.

And if that ain't enough--then there's nothing that will help you.


The further error usually involved with that is that Paul taught, in nearly all cases, exactly what Peter, James, and John taught.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not really.

Well, how about I explain my position then? I accept the (commonly accepted as we find it today) Bible as the inspired Word of God. I accept it as verbal plenary and conceptually inspired.

Based on that, I look at the writings of James, and Peter, and John (in the commonly accepted as we find it today writings), and find that the teachings, while not word-for-word, are echoed by Paul.

Hope that explains it a little more.

rapt
September 15th, 2001, 03:43 PM
Acts 7:22
And Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and in deeds.
23
And when he was full forty years old, it came into his heart to visit his brethren the children of Israel.
24
And seeing one of them suffer wrong, he defended him, and avenged him that was oppressed, and smote the Egyptian:
25
For he supposed his brethren would have understood how that God by his hand would deliver them: but they understood not.
26
And the next day he shewed himself unto them as they strove, and would have set them at one again, saying, Sirs, ye are brethren; why do ye wrong one to another?
27
But he that did his neighbour wrong thrust him away, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge over us?
28
Wilt thou kill me, as thou diddest the Egyptian yesterday?

The guilty will alway cry "Judge not! Judge not!"

rapt
September 15th, 2001, 03:56 PM
God knows who comes to a forum such as this and why, whether to seek Him or to scoff at Him and his word, or to exalt themselves as judges while hollering "judge not" to Christians, who they suppose have no right to judge them.

The fact remains (unbeliever or believer; God respects no one's person), that God IS the Judge, and He will INDEED judge those that reject His word, whether they want to believe that or not.


Acts 13:40
Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;
41
Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I can certainly judge THAT to be true.

Zakath
September 15th, 2001, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by D__o__n
Now Zakath and Surreal:

ERROR! ERROR! DANGER, WILL ROBINSON!!!

The so-called "contradiction" you presented with 1 Cor 5:12 is easily answered by LEARNING HOW TO READ.

I never implied it was any kind of biblical contradiction. If there is a contradiction it is in the behavior of Christians who won't follow Paul's direction. All I wanted to indicate was that even Paul wouldn't judge outsiders while you Christians seem quite willing to try, judge and condemn them all in the same post.


Wow. Taken in FULL CONTEXT (apparently something you are either reluctant to do, or were never taught to do), this passage tells Christians they are not to have anything to do with fornicators, or the covetous, or extortioners, etc., etc.

Shucky durn, give thet boy a gold star!!! He shore kin read them thar scripturz...

We'd better also give him a tourniquet since he just shot himself in the foot... :rolleyes:

The context of Paul's comments, Don, is discussing those in the church. His comments about judgementalism are to be limited to those inside the Christian fellowship, not those outside.

rapt
September 15th, 2001, 05:13 PM
So you think Paul didn't judge "them that are without" when they came to pervert the truth with their lies?

Think again.


So they (Paul and Barnabas), being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.
5
And when they were at Salamis, they preached the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews: and they had also John to their minister.
6
And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Barjesus:
7
Which was with the deputy of the country, Sergius Paulus, a prudent man; who called for Barnabas and Saul, and desired to hear the word of God.
8
But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith.
9
Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him.
10
And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?
11
And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.
12
Then the deputy, when he saw what was done, believed, being astonished at the doctrine of the Lord.

Beware lest ye be found to fight against God as well, o ye devils that despise His Word.

Zakath
September 15th, 2001, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by rapt
]So you think Paul didn't judge "them that are without" when they came to pervert the truth with their lies?

Think again.

Beware lest ye be found to fight against God as well, o ye devils that despise His Word.

Slow down, laddie! All I did was quote from your Bible, I didn't write it. If you don't like it, take it up with the translators. :rolleyes:

I don't despise any man's scripture nearly so much as I despise hypocritical fundamentalists who misuse it to butcher innocents and bind humans with fear.

Before you threaten anyone claiming to speak for your god, let's try a little test Rapt, to see if he cares as much as you seem to think he does...

Step right up. Which one of you slaves of YHWH is going to be the first to curse this no-good, filthy, blaspheming atheist blind by the power of their god? Will it be you, Rapt? Someone else??? Give it your best shot. :D

(Note - it's been tried before without effect.)

PENIEL
September 15th, 2001, 05:42 PM
Lam 2:21 The young and the old lie on the ground in the streets:

my virgins and my young men are fallen .

Lam 2:22 Thou hast called as in a solemn day my terrors round

about, none escaped nor remained:

those that I have swaddled and brought up hath mine

enemy consumed.


:(

Amadis
September 15th, 2001, 08:45 PM
Any Western nation's government -- whether putatively Christian or not -- is likely to be made up of at least a smattering of Christians. It is not at all incongruous that they should participate in the legitimate functions of government, one of which is to punish unto death those who perpetrate violent evil.

I have no problem envisioning a thoroughly Christian hangman, in other words -- a man who would never in a million years take the life of another person on his own, but who would perform his duties of execution with the clear conscience of a man who sees clearly the distinction between the state's responsibilities, and the individual's. If I may serve as a juror, then I may serve as a commando, both being (within their respective spheres) necessary roles in a government that seeks to follow God's directives on flailing wrongdoers.

Many Christians took part in the bombing of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan in World War II, and fought hand to hand with the enemies of their country. These were sincere believers who realized that the call of the government on that occasion was justified, and that Caesar needed to be accorded what was legitimately his. CS Lewis makes the point, however, that a Christian airman in the Second World War would have been called upon by his convictions to refuse to bomb purely civilian targets. Bombing fascist soldiers would have been an act designed to restore peace to the world, while decimating civilians would have been merely cruel.

His_saving_Grac
September 15th, 2001, 08:58 PM
Originally posted by rapt
[B]Saving grace: >>To be a hypocrate is to be a greek actor. That is what a hypocrate was.<<

It's no wonder you can't understand Don if that's the depth of your understanding of the word hypocrit.

It's no wonder you don't understand me when I wrote what the origin of the word is. What the CHURCH says it is now means nothing to me. It is a blatently overuse cliche by anyone as a defense for their religion and for personal attacks on any who disagrees.

I will ignore your scriptural quotes just as you ignore the 40-50 times Jesus himself told us not to judge. You are an Enyart follower, and their is no repentance in those who follow his ways. You choose to blind yourself. I choose to see.

His_saving_Grac
September 15th, 2001, 09:03 PM
Originally posted by Zakath
With all this judgement scripture flying around, don't forget Paul's instruction, the one that is most applicable for you religionists...

- I Cor. 5:12-13

If the apostle Paul says it wasn't any of his business, why do so many Christians today try to make judgements of those outside their religion their business?

I know. Almost enough to turn a christian into an atheist because at least most atheists choose to follow a personal creed that doesn't injure or kill others unlike the majority of those who want to claim christianity as their religion of choice.

His_saving_Grac
September 15th, 2001, 09:35 PM
Originally posted by D__o__n
Saving Grace:



I'll give you just one: Faith.

And if that ain't enough--then there's nothing that will help you.

Well, how about I explain my position then? I accept the (commonly accepted as we find it today) Bible as the inspired Word of God. I accept it as verbal plenary and conceptually inspired.

Based on that, I look at the writings of James, and Peter, and John (in the commonly accepted as we find it today writings), and find that the teachings, while not word-for-word, are echoed by Paul.

Hope that explains it a little more.

Faith huh? Well that is what I have been using my entire life. It's when someone wants to throw scripture around that I lose my faith. Especially when that scripture goes against my morals.

I will explain my position. I know that the New Testement as we read it is different than what was written in the 4th century. I know that the Authors of the Gospels were NONE of the Apostles of those names chosen by Jesus. I know 8 of 14 books attributed to Paul were written by unknown people. I know the book of Revelations wasn't canonized ontil the 16th century. I know the 2nd book of Peter wasn't written by Peter the Apostle. I know that Moses DID NOT write the first 5 books of the bible as we were taught. I know the was NO coat of many colors (It said a red robe) I know that many books taught all over in early churches were banned by later churches, so it was devine, then it wasn't devine, then it was, then it wasn't. I know that when you read about the apostles quoting "scripture" as in "the scripture says..." they are NOT talking about the New Testement because IT WASN'T WRITTEN. So I know that the infallibility of the bible according to scripture does NOT include the New Testement as scripture since it didn't exist.

So what IS echoed? Well re-written books, that were carefully edited over the centuries and the proof of that is held in two major hands available for all to see. Books that were accepted as devine, then voted as not devine. A completely new ending to the book of Mark after chapter 16:8 (which is where the book ends originally.

And I see people with preconceptions quoting scripture and context in 20 different ways and all condemning the other to Hellfire and brimstone for NOT believing THEM above all others.

I also see atheists come to this forum and laugh at christians for acting like ignorant children throwing fits over what they "know" while they really "know" nothing, only God does. I see atheist come here and leave saying, "I am SSSOOOOO glad I am not a christian!"

And I see people who swear they have tried all forms of religion deny wanting to read the bible as it was written and taught in the 4th century, or the Jewish Torah from which we got our Old Testement, or the other so called 'apocryphal' books the Roman church decided wasn't good enough for teaching but were considered "devinely written" for centuries. But because the Church told us they aren't, now we are wrong to read them or believe in their devinity.

I love God. I love Jesus and what he taught. There are more things he wants us to know that we have hidden from us. I will keep seeking him in every way I can. But one thing that DOES bother me. I don't see Him on this board very often at all. I see our ENEMY here all the time posing as christians, but not Him often.

So I talk on the boards. I point out other places to find what was once deemed devine scripture. I try and get into non violent discourses with as many people as possible. When they ask my view, I answer. I don't expect them to change, but I hope someone will find Christ through something that is said in the discussion. And I pray that some christian won't leave God because of the childish fighting seen by those claiming Christ as their deity.

rapt
September 15th, 2001, 10:26 PM
Saving grace:

I will ignore your scriptural quotes just as you ignore the 40-50 times Jesus himself told us not to judge.

Quote them for us, all 40-50 of them, if they exist, and I will not ignore them.

How can you ignore ANY scripture, regardless of who quotes them?

Just be honest. You don't believe them either way, do you?


You are an Enyart follower, and their is no repentance in those who follow his ways. You choose to blind yourself. I choose to see.

You are who has choosen blindness. I follow no one but Christ. I don't even KNOW Enyart. You IMAGINE THINGS like a bunch of scriptures that don't exist, and make false statements like that I am an Enyart follower. Prove your statements or keep your lies to yourself.

Liars make statements they cannot support.


Almost enough to turn a christian into an atheist

If you can so smugly claim that I or Christ made statements we never made, it's no wonder you are ready to become an atheist. Liars and atheists are not in submission to the Word of God, and hold their own imaginations above God's Word. They make the Word of God of none effect by unbelief just such as yours.


It's when someone wants to throw scripture around that I lose my faith. Especially when that scripture goes against MY morals.

(color, bold, caps mine)

This blasphemous statement shows your disdain for the Word of God and your proud exaltation of your own imagination above It, as if YOUR morals are more holy than Gods! (2Thes 2:4 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=2THes+2%3A4&version=KJV&showfn=yes&showxref=yes&language=english))

No scripture is immoral. If any scripture is against YOUR "morals", then it's YOU that's in need of change, not the scripture.

After I read what you call "your position" (your gross diatribe about all you "KNOW" [...ahem]), and then how you followed it up with your unwitting self condemnation:
I also see atheists come to this forum and laugh at christians for acting like ignorant children throwing fits over what they "know" while they really "know" nothing, only God does. I see atheist come here and leave saying, "I am SSSOOOOO glad I am not a christian!"
...it became apparant that you don't know ANYTHING, but that you're just another wolf in sheep's clothing; just another perverter of scripture; an ANTICHRIST like John warned us about.

Get thee hence Satan


.

His_saving_Grac
September 15th, 2001, 10:45 PM
I choose not to join into your war of words. I choose to keep my loving vision of christ and I choose to reject your hateful version of him. There is nothing else to say.

I am SO sick of supposed christians having nothing better to do but scream insults at others.

Guess what. If YOU follow Jesus, and what you are doing is right, then I would have to choose his enemy over your version of christianity. If my god can't be a loving God with loving followers, then I want nothing to do with YOUR God, because the GOD you follow is hateful, angry, and all around disgusting. I am SO glad that YOUR God does not really exist.

LOL I am the ANTI-CHRIST!!!!!!! HURRAYYYYYYYY FOR ME.

I have met ignorant people before. I am VERY glad I will never meet you.

rapt
September 15th, 2001, 10:56 PM
You will meet my God, like it or not. THEN you will know what "love" is, and that you had blasphemed it, and chosen darkness in it's place, and called darkness "love".

His_saving_Grac
September 15th, 2001, 11:06 PM
Originally posted by rapt
You will meet my God, like it or not. THEN you will know what "love" is, and that you had blasphemed it, and chosen darkness in it's place, and called darkness "love".

LMHO yeah whatever Rapt. Once again it's the case of "if you don't believe as I do hten your condemned and going to Hell because I say so. I hope you enjoy saying so.

Lets see, you say to use the death penaly and decide ourselves who deserves it. That is YOUR God's love. My God rejects that we are smart enough to know ALL the truth and leave all judgement in the hands of the only one who knows all. Yep, that MUST be satan. Satan HATES death, remember? He would NEVER want us to kill each other. Only GOD would.(Hear the HEAVY sarcasm????)

YOU know me and call me a liar. Whatever. Nice to see how loving YOUR God taught you.

I would bet you my soul against yours that your own church leader (IF you go to church) would reject your own statements on this board.

I like your God. He lets you use the word "love" as a threat. funny I don't see THAT God in the bible. Only YOU do, and those like you.

His_saving_Grac
September 15th, 2001, 11:10 PM
I hope you realize your God has all the same tones and beliefs that the JiHad God of the terrorist have. Mine has the tones that the U.S.A held in the National Church in Washington yesterday. The USA supports my God. Your God is about to be blown back to his home.

MARANATHA_NOW
September 15th, 2001, 11:28 PM
I believe there are going to be some who at the return of CHRIST, are going to be shocked at seeing the lake that will be 200 miles long and about 4 feet deep. This will be a lake of blood and body parts. I can almost hear them now saying I thought GOD was a loving GOD. How could HE do such a thing. I will tell you how, it's called justice. When GOD THE LORD JESUS returns he will personally kill all that are alive on the earth that have rejected him. This will be the most horrific sight that you can imagine. There we will be no unsaved that will enter the 1000 year kingdom. PEACE, but not yet.

His_saving_Grac
September 16th, 2001, 12:05 AM
Who said anything about rejecting Jesus? I reject RAPT'S interpretation of Jesus.

Where did you get your details on this lake?

So justice means death in your view too, huh? Not only death, but tortuoues death. You REALLY think God wants your false love through FEAR of him? You really can't accept that the reason Jesus was born was so we Loved God because we LOVED him and NOT because we feared him?

Well, I will continue to love God because I love him and not because I fear him. He has my eternal love. I know his power. I don't fear that power because he has already taken me back from death and pain 6 times personally. So when he wants to, he can do it. I will lovingly let him without fear in my heart. He has granted me extra years to spend and develope with my children. I KNOW about his Grace. I KNOW about his love. This tortuous God Rapt discusses (as well as others) is NOT the God who personally intervened in my life.

The God I worship was the one who sent the prophets. the one who sent John the Baptist. The one who sent Jesus. And the one who taught LOVE and not hate, The one who the world prayed to during ceremonies worldwide two days ago. The one that had his leaders asking for compassion and not hasty attacks on the innocents. NOT the one Rapt says will blow up everyone no matter what.

I reject the prophecies of Revelations as the Church did for 1500 years. I reject the churches use of that book to strike fear into the hearts of the uneducated for 300 years, and how each and every calamity that happenes they point it out in the book and tell us the exact year it is going to happen, and then have to take it back when it doesn't.

It was supposed to happen in 2000. then in 2001. Now they say in 2004 because they screwed up the Year of jesus birth. And in 2005 they will find another reason for it to happen.

I reject the fiery hell that did NOT exist with Moses' God, but was a later invention. I reject that the absolutely last god sent prophet to speak his devine word was Paul. I reject that NO ONE ELSE IN THE ENTIRE WORLD has EVER been inspired by god to say anything in almost 2000 years.

I accept Jesus Christ and his teachings. I accept that there are more teachings of his that didn't agree with Paul and were rejected by the Roman church that was Created by Paul (not Peter)

I have my peace. Rapt, through his anger, has no peace. Which do YOU think is more in touch with god almighty? The one who is stressing and angry, or the one who is content for every single breath he is still able to take since they are extra gifts from God and something he had lost twice in the past?

I love my God. He is NOT the same God of Rapt. He is the creator of the world, called Lord and the shortened version of his previously secret name is YHWH (it's actually a 26 letter name).

My God has already shown his love for me. Mine has never rejected me nor left me. Mine has cause many miracles in my life. Rapts is bombing children.

MARANATHA_NOW
September 16th, 2001, 12:26 AM
I get the info on the lake, in REVELATION chapter 14, as well as chapter 19, which I believe are parallel stories. Also the verses in MATT. and MARK and LUKE, that refer to when the birds gather themselves together. But if you reject the only book in the bible (REVELATIONS), that GOD says you will recieve a blessing for reading and believing. Then I guess you will just lose out. BTW do you hate Rapt, if you do not, it sure sounds like you are close to. Rapt and I disagree on many things, but I still believe he is my brother in CHRIST. PEACE, but not yet.

Zakath
September 16th, 2001, 05:51 AM
Hello Rapt,

I remember your words and threat...
"...And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season..." Beware lest ye be found to fight against God as well, o ye devils that despise His Word.

I'm still here and my health and vision are both just as good as yesterday. I'm waiting for some action by you or your apparently bogus deity...

Or maybe you've decided that your deity doesn't really have any power as your old myths describe.

It appears that you're just another follower of a powerless delusion, worshipping a god that you created and who exists only in your mind.

Such misguided belief is so pathetic...

His_saving_Grac
September 16th, 2001, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by MARANATHA_NOW
I get the info on the lake, in REVELATION chapter 14, as well as chapter 19, which I believe are parallel stories. Also the verses in MATT. and MARK and LUKE, that refer to when the birds gather themselves together. But if you reject the only book in the bible (REVELATIONS), that GOD says you will recieve a blessing for reading and believing. Then I guess you will just lose out. BTW do you hate Rapt, if you do not, it sure sounds like you are close to. Rapt and I disagree on many things, but I still believe he is my brother in CHRIST. PEACE, but not yet.

Yeah, I guess I lose out since GOD did NOT say you will recieve a blessing for reading and believing the book of revelations. And it took 1500 years+ for the church to believe.

GOD has NEVER spoken out about anything in the New Testement. People who CLAIM that God spoke to THEM made that claim. Funny how you will accept their claims, but if ANYONE were to make that same claim today, they would be branded as crazy, or a heretic.

The Matthew, Mark and Luke don't say anything about this "lake of blood and body parts"

Nope, I don't hate Rapt. I sure do hate his way of presenting christianity though. I disapprove of ANYONE who tries to make Jesus into a WarGod when he himself refused that while on earth. I disapprove on ANYONE who says "God" told them to kill righteously, when "righteousness" is not a black and white word, but an ambigouis one with a different interpretation by each individual, including the JiHad and fanatics that cause terrorism.

Read the "Shepard of Hermes" That is a very very famous OTHER books of revelations where God spoke to an individual and showed him the layers of Heaven and the end of life. It was never canonized because it is even more scary than Revelations.

Then go back and re-read the Gospels. The kingdom of God (Jesus) was to happen in THEIR lifetimes. Jesus himself many times said "I say to you, many here will not taste death before you see the Kingdom of God".

If Jesus is the son incarnate of God, when he was crucified we rejected the Kingdom of God. Revelations is nothing but the churches way to keep the faith alive and scare people into love (and it is impossible to love through fear. You can only FAKE your love)

Rapt may be a "brother" in Christ, but the minute he deems someone of my low background as the "anti-christ" then he goes past the knowledge of the Lord and into the realm of shear idiocy. He needs to read the bible and find out how powerful the enemy is. His speech will confuse and convert billions to his side thinking he is the Messiah come back. THAT is who the anti-christ is/will be. Not some lowly person still searching for all of Gods word. The Anti-christ will use Gods own word against us to cunfuse us into sinning, much as is being done when people advocate mass killing and say it is in Gods name. That is what the terrorist fanatics do. That is ALSO what Rapt is advocating. So if THEY are wrong, how is HE right?

His_saving_Grac
September 16th, 2001, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by Zakath
Hello Rapt,

I remember your words and threat...

I'm still here and my health and vision are both just as good as yesterday. I'm waiting for some action by you or your apparently bogus deity...

Or maybe you've decided that your deity doesn't really have any power as your old myths describe.

It appears that you're just another follower of a powerless delusion, worshipping a god that you created and who exists only in your mind.

Such misguided belief is so pathetic...

Hello Zakath, how are you today?

I must have missed Rapts attempt to "curse" you. He accused me of blasphamy, and is too uninformed to realize that his attempt to curse you is a blasphemy in itself.

A person on Earth cannot possibly call on God and order him to do something to another. God NEVER granted Rapt that power, and to act like he has it is one of the greatest blasphemies possible. It shows he PRESUMES to have been singled out with God's blessing.

You may be right about the powerlessness of Rapts deity, because his deity doesn't appear to follow the same rules that the Christians "God" does. Rapts deity follows Rapts rules. Making Rapt his own God.

While his "god" is a delussion on his part, rest assured it isn't the same God from the bible. I know you are atheist, but don't let the God that some fanatics follow make you think he is the same God I or many other christians follow.

I would love to have an educated discourse with you about this. I promise you I will NOT resort to insults, threats, sarcasm (unless in a joking manner where we BOTH laugh), or any other manner of belittling your faith or lack of belief in my faith.

I would be honored if you would accept this offer.

Zakath
September 16th, 2001, 08:33 PM
Originally posted by His_saving_Grac
Hello Zakath, how are you today?

Hearty and hale, thank you!


...I would love to have an educated discourse with you about this. I promise you I will NOT resort to insults, threats, sarcasm (unless in a joking manner where we BOTH laugh), or any other manner of belittling your faith or lack of belief in my faith.

I would be honored if you would accept this offer.

I'd be glad to oblige, but I will be travelling on business this week so my posting may be a little erratic. If you're willing to be patient regarding my response time, carry on. Otherwise we'll have to wait until next week...

It's up to you.

D__o__n
September 17th, 2001, 05:12 AM
Actually, Zakath, you are correct in that the intent of the meaning is directed towards those in the church.

However, there is evidence that cannot be overlooked: Verse 9 - I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators.

When applied to the passage, this shows that some hypocrisy was going on with the Corinthians. Why are they judging those outside the church when they haven't judged the ones inside the church that are doing the same thing?

Paul isn't telling them not to judge; he's echoing "remove the beam from your own eye before talking about the mote in your brother's."

D__o__n
September 17th, 2001, 05:14 AM
Saving Grace two things to consider:

1) Hypocrite - actor; in the context of Matthew 7, someone who was acting righteous, when in reality they were just as bad as the people they were condemning.

2) Who do you say that Jesus is?

His_saving_Grac
September 17th, 2001, 10:16 AM
Originally posted by Zakath


Hearty and hale, thank you!



I'd be glad to oblige, but I will be travelling on business this week so my posting may be a little erratic. If you're willing to be patient regarding my response time, carry on. Otherwise we'll have to wait until next week...

It's up to you.
I will await your return/time allotments and also carry on as I have many many people clammoring for my attention, as you can see. lol

His_saving_Grac
September 17th, 2001, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by D__o__n
Saving Grace two things to consider:

1) Hypocrite - actor; in the context of Matthew 7, someone who was acting righteous, when in reality they were just as bad as the people they were condemning.

2) Who do you say that Jesus is?

Answers

1: Hypocrate was actually someone who put on anothers clothes and 'became' that person, whether real or fictional. Righteous or unrigtheous is not part of the interpretation. Paul was one of the greatest in the strict sense of being a "hypocrate". When with the Romans, he became as a roman. When with the Jews, he became as a Jew. (His own scriptural words). To do so was to practice a deception, which is why I doubt his sainthood. God doesn't need deceptions to promote his point, he has his enemy to do that. Paul convicts himself with his own words.

Jesus called them hypocrates because they made getting into heaven almost impossible (much as many churches do now) They acted like they would be the only making it in, while those they were teaching weren't worthy. They weren't "as bad" as you said. They just demanded that everyone follow the letter of the law so much that heaven was unattainable, even for them. That is why Jesus asked them which was better, holding the Sabath or saving a life on the Sabath. Who was better, those who left the supposedly "dead" body on the side of the road because it was unclean to touch the dead and therefore if you did you were 'defiled" for a prescribed time period, or to do as the Samaritan did and help the person who was NOT dead by not worrying about defilement. They were using one law to override the greater laws of God, much as most who post here do.

2. Who was Jesus? He COULD have been god in the flesh without the need of having a "virgin"birth (especially from a virgin who was born of a 'virgin') All he had to do was enter with the Holy spirit and take over the body of the Jesus baby. (Much the same way these people SAY the Holy Spirit takes them over and causes them to "speak in tongues". Talk about not reading scripture. In Acts "speaking in tongues is NOT speaking where only an interpreter can understand, but where EVERYONE understands the speaker(s) in their native tongue, no interpreter needed.)

He could be the greatest prophet. Or tied with Moses in that respect since the two have held the world rapt with God for many many millenea.

He could have been who the zealots had chosen to be the "messiah" according to scripture, which was a war-priest king from Davidic lines to give them back the lands once controlled by David/Solomon because that is the real interpretation of the biblical scripture of the prophecy that was believed by the Jewish followers, but he failed (in their eyes) because he DIDN'T start the war they wanted (and THEY started 30+ years after his death to the destruction of themselves AND Jeruselum).

This would cause the reasoning for Paul to proclaim a "new covenant" in order to keep the teachins of love alive since Jesus no longer had a Jewish following thanks to Nero and the splitting and jealousy of the Apostles (again, that is known from the scriptures).

But he wasn't God in the flesh. God proclaimed himself to himself at the river Jordan?

But did he have the knowledge of what God wanted instilled in him? Almost certainly. He knew the Mosaic law better than those who had taught it and interpreted it. He knew the SPIRIT of the law which is where we now get the expression. He knew which were the two greatest of all Gods commandments and knew that THEY overrode all others. Sort of like "Rule 1: The customer is always right. Rule 2: See rule 1." Anyone placing any other law ABOVE loving God with all your being and loving one another as you love yourself was not following the spirit, but the letter, which made Heavon unattainable.

So who was Jesus? The man who knew God as Moses did, as Elijah did, but spoke much more clearer, and told off the church leaders instead of telling off the kings. He was sent to "bring back the lost sheep of Israel" (the preists and those they taught) to the "light" of God. He left a message that has trancended the ages, and has lead those who need secrecy to look for secret interpretaions in his words. He opened Heavon up to all by taking away the literal law and replacing it with the spirit of the law, which is why the way to heaven leads through him. You can't get to Heaven through the literal interpretation, but through the spirit
of the word in which God had said it. Those who follow it literally as the lost sheep.

Someone recently attacked me because I would follow my "morals" above their interpretation of Gods word. Morals are a type of character that a person feels is correct. If they are not evil in nature, they must come from God. Satan can't (according to christian belief) have a "high moral character". So if my convictions say killing is wrong, no one can tell me God says killing one another is "good". God is all powerful (again according to beliefs) He doesn't need ME to kill. He doesn't even need ANYONE 'killed" he can just make them "cease to be" if he chooses. Anyone who doesn't accept that then can't honestly believe in Gods power to create.

D__o__n
September 17th, 2001, 12:45 PM
You're in a sad state, Saving Grace; hope you realize that.

As firm as you seem to be in your beliefs and convictions, the truth is you aren't sure.

You see, I firmly believe you are wrong; Jesus declared Himself as God (I and my father are one).

Here's an easy one for you: Who knew the law, the intent, the spirit, etc. better than anyone else? The author of those laws....

How much faith does it take to know that Jesus was born of a virgin? The same amount that it takes to know that when you hit the power switch, the TV will turn on. How much faith does it take to know that He was God in the flesh? About as much as it takes to know that when you dial a number on a cell phone and hit "send," it'll ring somewhere else. How much faith does it take to know that He died and rose again? Just about the amount it takes to know that when you step out the door tomorrow, the world will still be there.

And before you say it: None of these actions are "faithless." No one hits the power switch on the TV with the thought, "It's not going to turn on." No one hits the send button on their cell phone with the thought, "the satellite crashed and burned, so this call isn't going to go through." No one steps out the door with the thought, "I'm stepping into a world that no longer exists."

Faith is that easy. We exercise it every day in millions of ways. But when it comes to saying that Jesus was born of a virgin, He is God in the flesh, He died and rose again--all of a sudden, our "faith" is practically non-existent.

Jesus Himself said that if we only had the faith of a mustard seed...which is still more than we need to turn the power switch on....

Just something for you to ponder.

As for your small explanation on morals, it begs several questions: If it is not evil it is from God? How untrue. It begs the assumption that we know exactly what good is.

How do we know exactly what good is, without a moral guideline to begin with? What you deem as "not evil" may in truth be an evil wrapped in lies--and thus, the appearance of good.

So what, pray tell, do you base your moral guideline on? From your post, it would appear that it's whatever YOU feel is correct.

His_saving_Grac
September 17th, 2001, 03:36 PM
You're in a sad state, Saving Grace; hope you realize that. Actually we are all in a sad state. You included.


As firm as you seem to be in your beliefs and convictions, the truth is you aren't sure. No, I am sure about my convictions. I am sure I don't know everything God wants me to know. I am sure I have much to be taught, much to discover, and much to share.


You see, I firmly believe you are wrong; Jesus declared Himself as God (I and my father are one). As you choose to believe. Remember, you are reading a text that was edited for 1600 years before anyone even dared to offer it to the public.


Here's an easy one for you: Who knew the law, the intent, the spirit, etc. better than anyone else? The author of those laws.... So? You have spoken with him? You honestly think that God can make a fruit of knowledge grow from a tree in the Garden of Eden, yet he can't put that knowledge into his prophet? He did it once before with Moses. Seems you don't believe too much in Gods power after all is said and done. I guess you can't call God omnipotent since he has limits in your mind of what he can or can not do. (Now I am NOT insulting you, but I AM trying to figure out how he can be all powerful yet has to fit everything into just what you can understand).


How much faith does it take to know that Jesus was born of a virgin The oldest known Canonized Gospel (Mark) has no word of a virgin birth. The oldest papers written by someone who reportedly met Jesus (Paul) has NO mention of a virgin birth.


Just about the amount it takes to know that when you step out the door tomorrow, the world will still be there. Really? I guess revelations doesn't exist for you. Good, I don't believe it either.


None of these actions are "faithless." No one hits the power switch on the TV with the thought, "It's not going to turn on." No one hits the send button on their cell phone with the thought, "the satellite crashed and burned, so this call isn't going to go through." You must not live in California, or florida, or any other place where natural disasters make those thing happen enough that the doubt is ALWAYS present. And I really belive god should never be equated with man made devices, but that is just my opinion, no scripture that I know of behind it (well Idoltry, but that wasn't the context you were using it.)


But when it comes to saying that Jesus was born of a virgin, He is God in the flesh, He died and rose again--all of a sudden, our "faith" is practically non-existent. I really don't understand what you were trying to say here. Could you please clarify your meaning a bot for me? Thank you very much in advance.


Jesus Himself said that if we only had the faith of a mustard seed...which is still more than we need to turn the power switch on.... LOL well the Mustard seed parable actually reads to me that he was using how the "word of God" speads. Some times on fertile soil(ears) where it grows and grows, sometimes on rock (where no one listens) and it dies, sometimes in cracks (semi-faithful) where it gets taken over by weeds (untruths and false churches)...etc. As far as I have ever heard, it was never talking about light switches or faith. It was talking about Gods word or the Kingdom of Heaven.


As for your small explanation on morals, it begs several questions: If it is not evil it is from God? How untrue. It begs the assumption that we know exactly what good is. Wow, but YOU claim to know what good IS. THAT is why my morals ARE correct. Because I won't believe someone who says THEY know what good is, when it deals with the destuction of another soul. When GOD order deaths, he does it himself. He didn't kill Cain, he sent him out and even marked him to assure that no other people he met would kill him. God destroyed Sodom and Gamoreah. God flooded the world. God destroyed the Tower of Bable. God destroyed those following Moses in the Red Sea, or sea of Reeds, whichever is the true interpretation. God took those on passover in Egypt. He has the Power and the will to do it himself. I don't see the God of creation as a petty gamester who needs too tell Abram to sacrifice his only son that he wated centuries for. I don't see my God as one who needs to play a game with Job and destroy lives just to prove a point to his fallen Angel. That God sound alot like a teenager, which sort of proves to me that is all BS.

God knows my faith. He is supposedly omnipresent. Why does he need to test it by saying "Go forth and Kill this country because I said so!" He doesn't. If he REALLY wants them dead, doesn't he have the power to take them himself? Or is the God you believe in weaker than the one I read in the bible? He took two of my brothers. He took my Grandfather and grandmother. He almost took my son today, but gave him back to me in the emergency room. He will take the Pope. He will take every life on this land. He prescribes how long we live as a people, and how long we live as a Nation.

So are my morals against "human ordered, but God sent (lol yeah RIGHT) order to murder others because someone here says THEY know what is good and what is bad? Nope, on something this important, I sure am going to need something much better that 5 ambigiuosly used verses to support something they WANT to believe.


How do we know exactly what good is, without a moral guideline to begin with? What you deem as "not evil" may in truth be an evil wrapped in lies--and thus, the appearance of good. Yup you are soooo right. How does that disinclude you though? Why are your moralsand beliefs not effected by what you just said, only mine are? Isn't THAT hypocritical?


So what, pray tell, do you base your moral guideline on? From your post, it would appear that it's whatever YOU feel is correct. The falseness of belief here would make why I KNOW what I know unacceptable to you or anyone else. Just as no one will accept that any other TRUE prophet of the Lord has come since the Time of Jesus, they will also reject someone who was there for a moment before being sent back to finish a Job assigned to him by the Lord.

You see, I don't NEED a personal intervention to convince me of Gods existance, but he gave them to me anyway. 5 different times. But this is also what you hear from what most people would classify as a "nutcases".

So form your opinion as you see fit. I will continue with what I must say. Those who believe will believe. Those who don't will be the mustard seed that feel on the hard baked ground.

D__o__n
September 17th, 2001, 04:16 PM
Alright; certain scripture (Old Testament) is discounted?

Namely, the passages where God directs His people to kill?

Does the term "obedience" mean anything to you?

Telling Abram to sacrifice Isaac wasn't a "game"; it was a test of obedience. Abram passed and was blessed greatly for it. And in this passage, we find the perfect picture of Christ (Gen 22:13); the ram (male sheep) caught in the thicket (thorns) by its horns (its head). The ram was sacrificed in Isaac's place, thus saving him.

Why doesn't God just instill full knowledge in all of us? Why should He? First, we're created in His image, not the same as Him. Can we comprehend and hold all knowledge? Or do we have physical or other limitations that prevent us from it?

What if the main prevention is our natural tendency to rebel?

I take the Bible--Old and New Testament--as my moral guideline. I don't trust in my own feelings, because I know that if left to itself, my inherent nature would tend towards those things that are good for me, and damn everyone else. If left to itself, my nature would define my moral guideline--as it did at one time--as "whatever doesn't hurt me." What's wrong with that? some would ask. What's wrong with it is the emphasis on self, instead of the emphasis on sacrifice of self for others.

I find nothing "whacko" about your situation at all. It's right and good to recognize that ALL miracles--big AND small--are from God.

But as I said--the easiest way to spread a lie is to mix it with truth. The only compass I use to determine what is truth and what is lie is through my moral guideline, and not myself.

rapt
September 17th, 2001, 11:00 PM
"HSG":

This tortuous God Rapt discusses (as well as others) is NOT the God who personally intervened in my life. The God I worship was the one who sent the prophets. the one who sent John the Baptist. The one who sent Jesus.
Do you really suppose that you worship such a God? Which prophets are you talking about? What about what these prophets said about Him? Do you believe them?


Gen 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven ;
25
And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.

Exodus 9:23 And Moses stretched forth his rod toward heaven: and the LORD sent thunder and hail, and the fire ran along upon the ground; and the LORD rained hail upon the land of Egypt.

Exodus 9:24 So there was hail, and fire mingled with the hail, very grievous, such as there was none like it in all the land of Egypt since it became a nation.

Numbers 11:1 And when the people complained, it displeased the LORD: and the LORD heard it; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the LORD burnt among them, and consumed them that were in the uttermost parts of the camp.

Numbers 16:20
And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,
21
Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment.
22
And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?
23
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
24
Speak unto the congregation, saying, Get you up from about the tabernacle of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram.
25
And Moses rose up and went unto Dathan and Abiram; and the elders of Israel followed him.
26
And he spake unto the congregation, saying, Depart, I pray you, from the tents of these wicked men, and touch nothing of their's, lest ye be consumed in all their sins.
27
So they gat up from the tabernacle of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram, on every side: and Dathan and Abiram came out, and stood in the door of their tents, and their wives, and their sons, and their little children.
28
And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the LORD hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind.
29
If these men die the common death of all men, or if they be visited after the visitation of all men; then the LORD hath not sent me.
30
But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD.
31
And it came to pass, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, the ground clave asunder that was under them:
32
And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods.
33
They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation.
34
And all Israel that were round about them fled at the cry of them: for they said, Lest the earth swallow us up also.
35
And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.
41
But on the morrow all the congregation of the children of Israel murmured against Moses and against Aaron, saying, Ye have killed the people of the LORD.
44
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
45
Get you up from among this congregation, that I may consume them as in a moment. And they fell upon their faces.
46
And Moses said unto Aaron, Take a censer, and put fire therein from off the altar, and put on incense, and go quickly unto the congregation, and make an atonement for them: for there is wrath gone out from the LORD; the plague is begun.
47
And Aaron took as Moses commanded, and ran into the midst of the congregation; and, behold, the plague was begun among the people: and he put on incense, and made an atonement for the people.
48
And he stood between the dead and the living; and the plague was stayed.
49
Now they that died in the plague were fourteen thousand and seven hundred, beside them that died about the matter of Korah.


Isaiah 66:3b Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
4
I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.
5
Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.
6
A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.
and the hand of the LORD shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies.
15
For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
16
For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
17
They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, (hypocrits) shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.
24
And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.


Jer 14:11
Then said the LORD unto me, Pray not for this people for their good.
12
When they fast, I will not hear their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and an oblation, I will not accept them: but I will consume them by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence.
13
Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, the (false) prophets say unto them, Ye shall not see the sword, neither shall ye have famine; but I will give you assured peace in this place.
14
Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy LIES IN MY NAME: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.
15
Therefore thus saith the LORD concerning the prophets that prophesy in my name, and I sent them not, yet they say, Sword and famine shall not be in this land; By sword and famine shall those prophets be consumed.
16
And the people to whom they prophesy shall be cast out in the streets of Jerusalem because of the famine and the sword; and they shall have none to bury them, them, their wives, nor their sons, nor their daughters: for I will pour their wickedness upon them.


Jer 23:16
Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD.
17
They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.
14
I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness; they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.
15
Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts concerning the prophets; Behold, I will feed them with wormwood, and make them drink the water of gall: for from the prophets of Jerusalem is profaneness gone forth into all the land.


Hos 7:19
Behold, a whirlwind of the LORD is gone forth in fury, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked.


Ezek 13:15
Thus will I accomplish my WRATH upon the wall, and upon them that have daubed it with untempered morter, and will say unto you, The wall is no more, neither they that daubed it;
16
To wit, the prophets of Israel which prophesy concerning Jerusalem, and which see visions of peace for her, and there is no peace, saith the Lord GOD.


Hos 8:14
For Israel hath forgotten his Maker, and buildeth temples; and Judah hath multiplied fenced cities: but I will send a fire upon his cities, and it shall devour the palaces thereof.

...the one who sent John the Baptist.
If you worship the God that sent John the Baptist, what about what John said about Him? Do you believe John?

(I didn't author these words)

Mat 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers,who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8
Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
10
And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and (OR ELSE) with fire:
12
Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


... The one who sent Jesus.
If you worship that God that sent Jesus, then what about what Jesus said about Him? Do you believe Jesus?

I reject RAPT'S interpretation of Jesus. You REALLY think God wants your false love through FEAR of him?

Here's "my interpretation" of Jesus, strait from scripture. If you reject these words, you're not rejecting me, or "my" interpretation, you're rejecting God's word.

I didn't author this:

Luke 12
4
And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
5
But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

I don't just THINK Jesus wants us to fear God, I KNOW it. I don't just THINK there's a firey hell, I KNOW IT.


Mark 9:42
And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
43
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45
And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.


If you claim that your god sent the prophets, John the Baptist, and Jesus, then how is it that he is so different from the things all these you mentioned spake of him? Will you deny every one of the above scriptures (along with the thousands more) that prove your concept of God is a falsehood?

The above sampling of the prophets was only a very small portion of the MANY, MANY firey judgements that can be found if one will read and BELEIVE the BIBLE. How else can one know what the prophets, John the Baptist, Jesus, or the Apostles said?? Did the Word of God come to you alone?


(My god) has the tones that the U.S.A held in the National Church in Washington yesterday.
The one who the world prayed to during ceremonies worldwide two days ago.
Hos 7:3
They make the king glad with their wickedness, and the princes with their lies.

The ecumenical "god" that the world prays to is a god of confusion. The true God is not. His way is narrow, and few ever find it. (Mat 7:13-23 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Matthew+7%3A13-23&version=KJV&showfn=yes&showxref=yes&language=english))
Many say "Lord lord", but are on the way to hell, because they are deceived by false prophets and their own imaginations...
because they reject God's Word.

Whoever rejects the Word of God, yet claims to accept Jesus's teaching, therefore worships "another Jesus", and embraces "another gospel". (2Cor 11:3,4; Gal 1:6-9 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=2Cor+11%3A3%2C4%3B+Gal+1%3A6-9&version=KJV&showfn=yes&showxref=yes&language=english))

... the one Rapt says will blow up everyone no matter what.
Rapts is bombing children.

Those are both blatant LIES. If I said either, you could have copied and pasted my words to prove it. You cannot, because you are a liar. All liars will have their part in the lake of fire, not in God's Kingdom (Rev 21:8 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=REV+21:8&language=english&version=KJV&showfn=off)). Moses, the prophets, Jesus, John the Baptist, and all the apostles say so. Your unbelief will not exempt you from the lake of fire. Faith in God's Word and repentance is your only hope. John and Jesus called them serpents and vipers that rejected the warnings of the prophets about the fire of hell, and warned them to repent. The same warning is from the prophets, John the Baptist, Christ, and the Apostles for you as well. Repent and be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins, or perish with the scribes and Pharisees.

I reject the prophecies of Revelations as the Church did for 1500 years.

You reject God's word. Concerning the church rejecting it like you do, that is only more lies. You cannot prove such a statement.
If any "church" ever rejected the scriptures, it was a synogogue of Satan. The RCC can be called nothing less.

I reject the fiery hell that did NOT exist with Moses' God, but was a later invention.

I have shown above that God was a God of fiery judgment even during Moses' day, and proven you a liar. Jesus said "If they believe not Moses' writings, how shall they believe my words?" (Jn 5:45-47 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=JOHN+5:45-47&language=english&version=KJV&showfn=off))


I accept Jesus Christ and his teachings.

No you don't. I have shown what Jesus Christ taught about a fiery hell which you reject, and have proven that you do NOT accept the teachings of Jesus.

I accept that there are more teachings of his (Christ) that didn't agree with Paul
Paul said, and every bible believing Christian accepts it:

1Cor 14:33
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35
And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
36
What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
37
If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

The unbelieving Jews embraced the false hope that they were not of the devil based on the fact that they were born Jews (Abraham's seed), but Jesus AND John the Baptist both told them that their hope was vain as long as they rejected the truth of God's Word. You HAVE no hope outside of the written word, sg. Nobody does. If the god you worship has morals different than the God revealed in the Word, then he is a false god, and you worship you know not what.

His_saving_Grac
September 17th, 2001, 11:18 PM
Namely, the passages where God directs His people to kill Did he? Or was that written by religious zealots like what the fantatic Muslims just did? I guess God/Allah really DID order the deaths of those on the planes, WTC, Pentegon, and all others to follow in Bin ladens Jihad (holy way). Do you see the comparissons? Why is THEIR version of the same old Testement exactly the same as ours, but our God is rights to order mass anhiliation of men, women, and children, and theirs is wrong and dispicable? Can you PLEASE tell why that is? And do not say "Ours is real, theirs isn't" because He is just as real to THEM as ours is to US.


Does the term "obedience" mean anything to you? Yup. And I am obeying what Jesus said more than once what are the two greatest of all commandments (which you and others seem to keep forgettting yet you claim Jesus is god. They are too love god above all else and love our neighbor as we love ourselves. He stated that in two books of the New testement. Why do YOU choose to disobey them?


Telling Abram to sacrifice Isaac wasn't a "game"; it was a test of obedience OK so God is no longer omniscent. He needed a test to prove Abram's faith. Hmmmmmm 700 years of blind obediance unrewarded with a child, then God needs to test him. Sounds like something my teenage daughter would do. Is this the same God who created the entire universe, and everything in it? That is what sunday school teachers want you to believe. I am past the area where anyone who has ever read a few pages of the bible can teach me the Old testement.

Let me ask you. After Lot and his daughters left Sodom, what happened to them? I know. It's in the Bible. Do YOU? I know it is where they STOPPED teaching the story in Sunday school.


The ram was sacrificed in Isaac's place, thus saving him How did that "save" Issac? God has no need of animal sacrifices. He said it himself through Jesus and through the words of Paul whom you believe was an Apostle. So is the God of Jesus and Paul a DIFFERENT God than the one in the old testement? So your God demanded a sacrifice, Issac was closest, he was to be killed for God in blind obedience and then God "created" a ram instead so he could satisfy his bloodlust? I don't think so. If we follow that thought, how do you know that a son who kills his father DIDN'T do it on Gods order? You think God has no figured out that we don't need to be tested that way in our faith? Did god LEARN from that? You are lowering the power of God again.


Why doesn't God just instill full knowledge in all of us? Why should He? First, we're created in His image, not the same as Him. Can we comprehend and hold all knowledge? Or do we have physical or other limitations that prevent us from it? Moses and Aaron could do it. Moses was a stutterer. Did you know that? God didn't fix his speach impediment, which is why God suggested Aaron do the talking. They were infused with Gods knowledge.

So was Elisha, Elija, Jeremiah, and supposedly the author of Revelations.

But who said we needed ALL his knowledge. We only need the knowledge of right and wrong, or good and evil. Yet we don't even have THAT, since my decission to not take a life is juged Good by the police, but bad by you.


What if the main prevention is our natural tendency to rebel? Who gave us that tendency?


I take the Bible--Old and New Testament--as my moral guideline. I don't trust in my own feelings, because I know that if left to itself, my inherent nature would tend towards those things that are good for me, and damn everyone else. If left to itself, my nature would define my moral guideline--as it did at one time--as "whatever doesn't hurt me." What's wrong with that? some would ask. What's wrong with it is the emphasis on self, instead of the emphasis on sacrifice of self for others. I do too. But your own feelings COME from what you read in literal interpretations. And you also let your chosen church (which you chose because it teaches what you also hold as true) tell you what it means. So your moral feelings ARE guiding you. These are concious decissions on your part, so you are following your personal feeling. The same book is guiding ME yet it guides me in a different direction, just as it guides the church down the street from you that you reject, and the one across town that you reject.

My moral guidelines don't go "whatever won't hurt me". I have been hurt many many times. I care nothing for my own hurts. They will pass. I care for the hurts of others, and that I am NOT the cause of them.


I find nothing "whacko" about your situation at all. It's right and good to recognize that ALL miracles--big AND small--are from God. Good. TY


But as I said--the easiest way to spread a lie is to mix it with truth. The only compass I use to determine what is truth and what is lie is through my moral guideline, and not myself.

Yup and the Church who held the only access to the bible in book form for 1500+ years had every opportunity to add their own "truths", including an ending to Mark that went with the Books of Matthew and Luke. They also added a virgin birth that Mark and Paul know nothing about. The gave us the beautiful manger scene that doesn't exist in the bible. Why did Herod kill all childeren 2 and under? Because the Magi had been foolowing the star that NO ONE ELSE COULD SEE for a little less than 2 years. Do you think he was STILL in that manger when they showed up?

Joseph and Mary fled with the Babe to Egypt (again to fulfill prophecy). Why? God couldn't protect his fleshly born son? He could strike cities dead with a word, yet he couldn't protect his own son?

He then told them to come back, but then changed plans because Herods son (who had John the Baptist beheaded) was now in charge so he went to Nazareth instead?

Then for 30+ years, Jesus did nothing about teaching the word that was in him? NOTHING? He went into the mundane craft of Carpentry?

And once he DID start to do his Miracles, he found out he couldn't do even ONE in his home town? (He called himself a "prophet" not God Son)

So who set your moral guideline? Which scripture passages? I will show you mine that set me on my path. Where are the ones that are the foundation of your belief?

His_saving_Grac
September 18th, 2001, 12:54 AM
Do you really suppose that you worship such a God? Which prophets are you talking about? What about what these prophets said about Him? Do you believe them? I believe in the one who sent Jesus. If Jesus says turn the other cheek, and you claim he is God, am I wrong to obey that? If Jesus says to forgive your brother seventy times seven, should I say "NO"? I Jesus says to Go and talk any problems you have with your brother before bringing it to Christ, should I say "that's wrong"?

If I were to follow some of the things you and some others have said, I would have to ignore those commands. That is the area I am at.

I am not going to quote all your scriptures, but let you re-read them and see that theses are GOD doing the punishment, not me. He has the power, which is what I stated all along. If he wants a race dead, he will destroy them. He has no need of me to help in that killing. Only the JiHad supporters have taken it upon themselves to do it, as well as other religious fanatics such as Hitler, Joan of Arc, and all the rest who claim to need the "holy war". They believe we are evil because of our decadent lifestyles, the anti Paul way our women dress, the way we flaunt our luxeries. All this is part of the 7 deadly sins. So are they RIGHT do attempt to exterminate us? I say no, but you are basically saying yes, but with us doing it to them.


If you worship the God that sent John the Baptist, what about what John said about Him? Do you believe John? John the Baptist questioned Jesus from prison before he was beheaded. He wasn't sure and only in the later written gospels did he all of the sudden proclaim Jesus. The qutes are very ambiguous to say the least. Again, John was proclaimg the war-priest king. Jesus wasn't him, so it has to be God,

But tell me. If John was such a great prophet, why is so little of the bible written about him? He proclaimed himself Elijah by how he chose to live. Elijah HAD to come for the messiah to come as per prophecy. Did GOD proclaim John as a prophet? Not a good one since nothing survives of his prophecies.

I see you mention the water baptism. It seems all are mis-informed on how the baptisms were done in those days.

The inductee (person to be baptised) was to shed all their close on the shore and walk naked into the river. The priest (JB in this case) then spoke a certain ordained prayer. He would dip the person under the water, and this symbolism was to wash away the old person, and the one who was raised was to be entirely new, cleaned for sin and the desire from sin. It had to be a mental mindset that you were no longer (Bob) but now a new name. The spirit was to enter you and fhelp you fight off the fleshly desires. Once you came ashore, you were given a pure white robe, and it was up to you to keep it pure white and yourself pure white.

None of that happens anymore. Most baptisms are done to gain membership into the Church, or in the Catholic belief, to insure babies who may die are assured a place in heaven. You are fully dressed and the robe is on you BEFORE entering the water. They only say "I baptise you in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost" That is NOT the prayer used then.


If you worship that God that sent Jesus, then what about what Jesus said about Him? Do you believe Jesus? About WHO? God? Yes, when I find his unaduterated word. Where are you going with this?

Nice quotes from Mark. I have read them. I also know the proper words that were used, and hell wasn't it. hell is a gentile word from a gentile religion (Greco/Roman).

As I have said before, none of the gospel writers were jewish Christians, nor his Apostles. If they were, they sure wouldn't have refered to themselves as "the Jews" in the third person. So this was written by a gentile christian. It has been dated to 20-50 years after Jesus death. Read the book "The Secrets of Mt Sinai". It will give you great insight into the bible that was preached in the late 4th century (and is almost perfect compared to the Codex the vatican has in it's possession for a bit later that same century." It shows where changes were made to the text of the New Testement by scribes of later dates and how they ar now part of the bible WE read.


If you claim that your god sent the prophets, John the Baptist, and Jesus, then how is it that he is so different from the things all these you mentioned spake of him? Will you deny every one of the above scriptures (along with the thousands more) that prove your concept of God is a falsehood? He isn't different. What is different is how YOU read those words. What also is different is the scripture to the contrary. You didn't post it, only the ones that support your side. Where are the beautitudes? The sermon on the mount?

You see, I am saved. I have no need to fear him. Your scripture is for those who deny him. God has already extended my time on earth at least 20 years. His latest was just this past January. Fear NEVER equates to Love. It equals fear. If he wants my fear, he can never have my freely given love. THAT is what God wants more than anything from us. Our love just as a babe loves their parents. And for us to share that love to all who will accept it.
Did the Word of God come to you alone His word for ME sure did. Hasn't he spoke to you? He will if you clear your mind of all distractions, open the bible and start reading. Don't LOOK for meaning, just let whatever is you problem in your life be the only thought in your mind. The let him guide your hands to what he wants to say to YOU and YOU alone. Doing it the first time is the hardest. After that, it becomes very simple. And guess what? I am doing what god wants by asking you to read the bible not for the stories, but to find HIM. He is there. Find him. Become as a babe.


The ecumenical "god" that the world prays to is a god of confusion. The true God is not. You have proof? You have determined which is the true church from the book of Revelations?


Those are both blatant LIES No, they are not. The second one is either missing a word, or I forgot where I was going so to THAT I sincerely appologise. You are NOT bombing children. But you are ADVOCATING it. Check your posts and you will see.


You cannot, because you are a liar. All liars will have their part in the lake of fire, not in God's Kingdom (Rev 21:8). Moses, the prophets, Jesus, John the Baptist, and all the apostles say so. Your unbelief will not exempt you from the lake of fire. Faith in God's Word and repentance is your only hope. John and Jesus called them serpents and vipers that rejected the warnings of the prophets about the fire of hell, and warned them to repent. The same warning is from the prophets, John the Baptist, Christ, and the Apostles for you as well. Repent and be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins, or perish with the scribes and Pharisees.

Once again you seek to gain my belief through fear. Why do you feal fear is the best way to Love God? You honestly think he is so stupid not to see through the deception and know the love and conversion isn't true, but a falseness done through fear? That train of though is what is destroying christianity worldwide, and don't let anyone decieve you, it IS dying. The proof has been in the news.

I won't love through fear. I do love for love. I have my belief. It differs from yours. I did copy and paste your words, but in response to YOU, not to someone else. You never answered that thread (yet)


No you don't. I have shown what Jesus Christ taught about a fiery hell which you reject, and have proven that you do NOT accept the teachings of Jesus. No, you didn't. In Jesus time, the fiery hell was a place in the desert where a certain pagan tribe tortured and burned and sacrificed humans. Jesus believed in Sheol. That is the place all souls go until the rapture. It is a place of timelessness. The firey hell was added to later texts. Again, go and read church history. They themselves admit it.


I have shown above that God was a God of fiery judgment even during Moses' day, and proven you a liar. Jesus said "If they believe not Moses' writings, how shall they believe my words?" LMHO No you didn't but you sure abuse that word. Again, look into church HISTORY. Does the thought that you will be wrong scare you? Do not condemn lest ye be condemed. The truth is waiting for all to read. You must choose whether to read it or not. If you don't you are showing you believe you already know all and can not learn more about God or jesus from anywhere else. THAT is why christianity is in it direst crises ever. People who quit "seeking" per the order of jesus. People who say "God" inspired those to canonize the texts in our accepted bibles, and will dismiss other gospels that fill in many of the blanks. Gospels KNOWN to be written by those who were with Jesus from dating and writing styles.


Paul said, and every bible believing Christian accepts it: A very broad statement. Untrue of course, and unprovable. All I need to show you is one. YOU have to show that everyone does. I can show you many churches who now reject Paul ever actually met the ressurected Christ. Again, just go and read the book of Acts.


If the god you worship has morals different than the God revealed in the Word, then he is a false god, and you worship you know not what. Again you help me laugh. Thank you.
Let me ask you. Is the God of the Old Testement the same God of the NEw? If He is, why did he need a new Covenent? Why did Jesus ORDER his apostles to not enter the lands of the Gentiles, nor the city of Samaria? Why did he say he did not come to save all people, just the lost lambs of Israel? Why did he tell the woman about how he was there not for her but for his people? (the dog and scrap discussion)? Why did this same god say "You have heard and eye for an eye, but I say if he should smite you, turn the other cheek so he may smite that too. And if he ask for your robe, give him your coat also? THIS doesn't sound like the same God. So which is real? Well you need the scary one to keep your faith. You NEED him to punish those you deem wicked. You need the threat of fire so you can think that your good work will set you above those who disagree with your beliefs reguardless of their good works.

My God? My God sent his prophet to say the two greatest commandments of them all are to Love thy Lord God with all thine heart, and to love thy neighbor as you love yourself. This came straight from Jesus. it seems to override ANY other commandments, unless you reject Jesus saying that or that Jesus had any connection with God.

My God didn't infuse me with zealot rage. He infused me with paitient wisdom. He taught me restraint. He taught me love without fear. He is your God too reguardless of your convitions.

My God will decide my eternity. And I don't care what it is, becuse he already instilled in me a great calm and peace with Him. He has already blessed me more than I EVER deserved. I have no need of a mansion in Heaven. I have no need of Gold roads or pearly gates. I have everything I need. You take the mansion. I will take my children and the unaduterated joy they give me each and every breath I take.

You are seeking god for your rewards, and to avoid the punishments. I am seeking all his words to continue the love and peace he has bestowed on me. He will let me know everything I need to know. And he will do the same for you. Just read the bible again. Start anywhere. Open your heart to God, and forget the words there. He will come. And you will know. You think you have joy now? Let THAT happen just ONCE. God is addictive. Enjoy Him.

:o

geralduk
September 18th, 2001, 04:06 AM
Originally posted by tralon
Nuke em! Everyone of those countries dancing in the streets laughing at us.The only way to deal with an evil force is to meet it with force.
I like what General Patton said," Your not here to die for your country, but your here to see the other bastard dies for his!" I couldn't agree more.

For we fight not against flesh and blood but againts principalaties and powers.
The arm of flesh will fail
The battle is not to the strong or the mighty
For the weaponds of our warfare are NOT carnal but are mighty through God for the pulling down strong holds....
If ANY good is to come out of this and thoose responsable are to be justly dealt with then christians should be praying,not for revenge; thats Gods domain,but that rightousness will prevail and Gods will be done and His kingdom come,for everything will be shaken that can be shaken so that that which canot be shake will remain.
IT is interesting that Afganastan is the doorway to the middle east and china.It has been prphisied i scripture that God will draw out Russia like a bull by its nose,If this man in Afganastan is responsable and well hidden he is not hid from God and i will be by prayer that he will be found.but let us pray aright! not accordig to our lusts but to the will of God and if we do not lknow what to pray the Holy Spirit will give us what to pray for with groanings that cannot be uttered(see the account where"Jesus wept)
The battles that are ahead need to be fought in and by prayer first so that the RIGHT battles may be fought on earth.

ho knows where this is al going to end? but what we do know that the rapture is now closer than ever and we should be ready.

geralduk
September 18th, 2001, 04:13 AM
Originally posted by childrenofraven
On this most unthinkable day in history.......let the sides stand together. Let the christians, pagans, jews, atheists, homosexuals, heterosexuals, and all others........let us all stand together as one. Let the differences lay down......let us all send them our hope. More people then ever in my current life need hope more then ever. So lay down your hate, bias, and opinions. Even if we all don't believe the same, let us stand as one, humans, together. And let us help the hurt.

Namaste.
We should look at the story of Ahab for the answer to that.
the world is heading for a one world state and religion and this situation will be used to further that end.
Those who have untill now rejected the Word and Gods way of salvation should have even more reason to repent for the days ahead are going to get worse.For everything that can be shaken will be shaken so that that whic cannot be shaken wil remain.
So all those who you say christians should align themselves with should in fact be reversed and men everywhere need to repent and in a sense align themselves with christians!

geralduk
September 18th, 2001, 04:29 AM
Originally posted by D__o__n
Warning, my brethren in Christ.

Don't let this tragedy be used to further a one world government, either.

Don't ask me to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with someone who does not believe that Christ is the only way to God, and don't expect me to give a false impression that living a life of sin is okay by shouting "down with the terrorists!" with the homosexuals.

In this time of tragedy, more than anything else, realize that WE ALL NEED GOD!!!

Working alongside a homosexual fireman or soldier for that matter is not what is meant here.
But a christain CANNOT join himself ;be of one mind or (read the story of Ahab) as in that story his ways are your way and where he shall go you shall go etc.
neither can he or should do Join in echumenical one world religion services where there are 'men' who do not worship God in spirit or truth.
There is a UNITY that is forbidden in scripture and that is what is being called for here and elsehwere. in our grief and turmoil we should still keep a clear head ruled by the Spirit of God not the fury and heated passions that are of the flesh not of the spirit.
That a homosexual for example or a muslim for that matter cannot feel greived and upset by what has happened is not sugested but a christian first and formost is seeking FIRST the kingdo of God and HIS rightousness.that HIS WILL BE DONE ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN. In other words the aim and purpose is or should be different than those who are not born again.

I hope you dont mind me puttting this here as i saw a number of replies to you to the contrary to what you said so ...

geralduk
September 18th, 2001, 04:57 AM
Originally posted by surreal
The problem is that you refuse to see any other way to God, or even to see that maybe there is no path to God at all. Until you are willing to accept others may think differently, there is no point in you discussing anything on these forums. If you can't even understand how someone would dissagree with you or accept that you might be wrong, you won't discuss anything, just randomly shout out your opinions. That won't change anyone's minds, just affirm your self-righteousness.

I give,or rather everyman has the right to his or her opinion,but concerning God or spiritual truth which i understand to be eternal and cannot be inconsistant an opinion is useless you need FACTS!
All the religions of this world CANNOT be true for in thier details there are oposed in their 'doctrins'
The ONLY cosistant thing in them all(apart from true christianity)
is that they are a relgion of works;ie:0 yo have to do things or refrain from doing them to be rightous or be acceptable to God.
Sitting on a fence does nor help you come to a conclusion about ANYTHING.Let alone about God.
I can pefectly understand someone disagreeing with me and can discuss and do so; often listening more carefully they they do to me more often than not.
You said that i should accept i might be right or wrong!!??
How unsatisfactory a situation can you get!
But scripture tell us we should BE FULLY PERSAUDED of the truth.
For i say this if we do not know or uderstand the truth we cannot have faith in God.Does that mean we have to know ALL the truth?
No,But concernoing the nature and character and dispostion of God IT is vital! Scripture tells us to "TASTE AND SEE THAT GOD IS GOOD."
I do solemnly testify and give witness to the fact that i HAVE tasted ;and found God to be GOOD.DOES that meen that I know everything about God? No,I have not swam across the sea but i do know it is WET! and you can swim i it!
concerning those religions: there are may faiths in this world and there is "THE FAITH that was once for ALL delivered to the saints"
Cain and Able were both men who sought God,who both built an alter to God and both brought a sacrafice.Ables though was accepted by God while Caines was rejected.Why? Able offered that which God had all ready lain down as being acceptable to Him
and which Able accepted and by faith offered.
Caine on the other hand offered what was right in his own eyes and offered the works of his own hands,and in consequence rejected;nevertheless was given time to repent,but while talking with Able rose up and slew him.
In the final analysis what man considers will do, is worthless and at worse FATAL, for in the things of God you need to know the TRUTH! and kowing the truth the truth makes you free.

geralduk
September 18th, 2001, 05:12 AM
Originally posted by surreal
That was a good quote and good timing for this situation.

The problem is, the bible contradicts itself so much they can just quote it a hundred more times saying the exact opposite.
In over 20 years of reading the bible,those things that seem to contradict each other usualy means you have to dig DEEPER and pray harder to find out why.
The bible i have ALWAYS found to be totally reliable.
what i find intersting is how much people read it to find suposed faults rather than to seek the truth!
No sincere person seeking God hungry for rightousnes and the truth and determined to find both! has goe away empty handed.

geralduk
September 18th, 2001, 05:27 AM
Originally posted by MARANATHA_NOW
I believe there are going to be some who at the return of CHRIST, are going to be shocked at seeing the lake that will be 200 miles long and about 4 feet deep. This will be a lake of blood and body parts. I can almost hear them now saying I thought GOD was a loving GOD. How could HE do such a thing. I will tell you how, it's called justice. When GOD THE LORD JESUS returns he will personally kill all that are alive on the earth that have rejected him. This will be the most horrific sight that you can imagine. There we will be no unsaved that will enter the 1000 year kingdom. PEACE, but not yet.

I presume you are refering to the book of Revalation?Where it is recorded that God will vengence for all the rightous blood that has been spilt since the foundation of the world.
I think refering to the battle of Armageddon.
That battle will be terrible indeed.
There will be unsaved during the 1000 year riegn of Christ,for we read that Jesus will rule the nations with a rod of iron.In other words they will HAVE to conform to his rule or face judgements.
Then after the 1000 years,satan will be loosed for a season(he had been bound in the pit remember?)and men will once again be given the opertunity to repent(thye have enjoyed the rightous and just rule of Christ over all the earth)theere will be those who will be rebell and wage war.then comethe the end.
Those who are saved afer the millenium are the GLEANINGS.those saved during the Great Tribulation is tha main harvest,and those cought up in the rapture are the first fruits of the harvest Holy unto God.

D__o__n
September 18th, 2001, 06:28 AM
Thanks, Gerald!

D__o__n
September 18th, 2001, 07:20 AM
Saving Grace, you've got a lot to answer; bear with me. (mostly my fault for not keeping my responses short to begin with)


Why is THEIR version of the same old Testement exactly the same as ours, but our God is rights to order mass anhiliation of men, women, and children, and theirs is wrong and dispicable?

Because there was a change in the plan. Not a change in God, but a change in the plan.

Consider this; it's only an analogy, and as such, especially in this case, is weak; but it's about the only way I know to explain this. Patton once set up a trap for Rommel; he read Rommel's book(s) on tactics, and knew that Rommel was a stickler for his own strategies. So Patton set up an ambush accordingly. Sure enough, Rommel entered the trap--exactly as Patton knew he would. The quote was, "Rommel, you magnificent _____, I read your book!"

Now, even though Patton knew what Rommel was going to do, his own troops had to be in place; his own troops had certain jobs to do; his own troops had certain actions that had to be performed.

Now, as for how this analogy applies, God is omniscient. He knows how things are going to turn out. But His creations still have to be in place; have certain jobs to do; have certain actions that must be performed in order for the end result to be obtained.

This is a very hard concept, and almost abstract; but it ultimately relies on the concept of free will. You have the free will to act as you do; Abram had the free will to refuse to sacrifice Isaac.

Hopefully, without being too obtuse, this answered several of your questions.

Why was the animal sacrifice necessary? Because of the covenant that was in effect at that time. The change in plan came with the change in the covenant. You see, God changed the covenant for us. We couldn't keep our end of the bargain. It just wasn't working. We kept adding things, and making the covenant of no effect; like you said earlier, we could no longer make it work. So God changed it, and gave His Son to be crucified on the cross (the last blood sacrifice). NOW animal sacrifices were no longer of any effect, for what animal could equal the Son of God?

I was quite aware that Moses was a stutterer; he was also a murderer. But God used him anyway (which just goes to show that no matter how low you think you are, God can use you anyway, something I teach my teen classes). However, please provide the support that shows that he was "infused" with knowledge.


Who gave us that tendency?

No one gave it to us; we were given free will. We just ended up choosing to use that to do things that we were told not to.


These are concious decissions on your part, so you are following your personal feeling.

Beg to differ. You're making an assumption based on what you believe is fact.

Fact is, I read. I choose a church because it follows what I know the Bible to say. If I attend a church, and I hear the people say that women must wear long dresses and hats, I leave, because all I can find in the Bible is that women should dress like women (Deuteronomy) and that they should dress modestly (Timothy, one or two other places). They've instituted a man-made doctrine. This has nothing to do with "feeling," which is emotion-based. It has everything to do with what the Bible says.

And incidentally, I hope you realize that I'm only discussing this with you; I have no delusions that I or anyone else can change your mind. Only the Holy Spirit can convict and work a change in us. Sometimes, we just happen to be the instruments used.


Do you think he was STILL in that manger when they showed up? Nope. Scripture clearly tells us that when the wise men found the child (not babe), he was living in a house.


Then for 30+ years, Jesus did nothing about teaching the word that was in him? NOTHING? He went into the mundane craft of Carpentry?

And once he DID start to do his Miracles, he found out he couldn't do even ONE in his home town? (He called himself a "prophet" not God Son)

Nope; scripture also tells us that at age 12, he was teaching the religious leaders. That scripture is silent for the most part really tells us nothing. All we can do is speculate; but the best answer probably lies in the 70 weeks of Daniel (i.e., Christ was biding His time in order to fulfill scripture).

As for not one miracle in his home town, well, it was predicted in Isaiah, and He echoed it Himself: His own home town wouldn't recognize Him.

Finally:
He stated that in two books of the New testement. Why do YOU choose to disobey them?First, it was also echoed at least once in an epistle by Paul (Romans). I disobey nothing. There is a difference between "hating" and simply disassociating myself with what is considered evil-doing. And you're still making assumptions. You've assumed that since I said don't ask me to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with homosexuals and people who don't believe in God, that I "hate" them. I humbly submit to you that you should read Gerald's explanation. I simply choose not to give the appearance of calling wrong right, and right wrong. If your moral compass compels you to believe that I'm wrong, then you're going to have to come up with some strong evidence to show me that I'm wrong.

rapt
September 18th, 2001, 07:33 AM
HSG:

...all your scriptures...are GOD doing the punishment, not me. He has the power, which is what I stated all along. If he wants a race dead, he will destroy them.
You have grossly contradicted what you've been saying all along by the above statement, and all one need do is re-read your diatribes against the true God and against His word to see it.

You claim to choose to "see", but you refuse to see that you contradict your own words, let alone the Word of God, so it's obvious that since you smorgasbord through the word of God, picking out what you choose and rejecting the rest, that you are "proud, knowing nothing" (1Tim 6:3-5 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=1Tim+6%3A3-5&version=KJV&showfn=yes&showxref=yes&language=english)). You profess yourself to be wise, but scripture proves you to be anything but wise (Rom 1:18-32 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Rom+1%3A18-32&version=KJV&showfn=yes&showxref=yes&language=english)).

You continue to falsely accuse me and imply that I ever said that we need to help God kill who He wants to kill. I never said any such thing. I know that Jesus said His servants DONT fight with sword (or bomb) (Jn 18:36 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Jn+18%3A36&version=KJV&showfn=yes&showxref=yes&language=english)). I don't believe in killing anyone; that's God's job (Rom 12:19 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?search=vengeance+I+will+repay&SearchType=AND&version=KJV&restrict=&StartRestrict=&EndRestrict=&language=english)). You seem confused on that point. VERY confused. First you present a god that never hurts anyone, then you contradict yourself and say He punishes and can kill whom He will. Get stable. God is not a God of confusion. Jesus Christ is the Son of the God of the Old Testament, and He is eternal.

Jesus SAID He is the Son of God, contrary to what you say (John 10:36 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?search=Son+of+God+blasphemest&SearchType=AND&version=KJV&restrict=&StartRestrict=&EndRestrict=&language=english))


So are they RIGHT do attempt to exterminate us? I say no, but you are basically saying yes, but with us doing it to them. You haven't got a clue WHAT you are talking about, do you? You're not taking your ideas from anything I said, that's for sure. You're as confused about what I said as you are about what Jesus or any bible writer said.

Get the beam out.

First you say you believe in the God that sent John the Baptist, but then you show that you don't even believe that he was God's prophet, or even what scripture shows that John proclaimed. You reject even Christ's declaration about John:

But tell me. If John was such a great prophet, why is so little of the bible written about him? He proclaimed himself Elijah by how he chose to live. Elijah HAD to come for the messiah to come as per prophecy. Did GOD proclaim John as a prophet? Not a good one since nothing survives of his prophecies.
John was proclaimg the war-priest king. Jesus wasn't himJohn said "Behold, the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world" when he saw Jesus. Does that sound anything like he was proclaiming a "war-priest king" like the Jews expected?

You claim to believe Jesus Christ, but Jesus said this about John:

Mat 11:9 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and MORE THAN A PROPHET.
10
For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
11
Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women THERE HATH NOT RISEN A GREATER (PROPHET) THAN JOHN THE BAPTIST...
13
For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14
And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
15
He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Do you have ears to hear Jesus?

rapt
September 18th, 2001, 07:35 AM
geralduk:

For we fight not against flesh and blood but againts principalaties and powers.
The arm of flesh will fail
The battle is not to the strong or the mighty
For the weaponds of our warfare are NOT carnal but are mighty through God for the pulling down strong holds....
If ANY good is to come out of this and thoose responsable are to be justly dealt with then christians should be praying,not for revenge; thats Gods domain,but that rightousness will prevail and Gods will be done and His kingdom come,for everything will be shaken that can be shaken so that that which canot be shake will remain.

If this man in Afganastan is responsable and well hidden he is not hid from God and i will be by prayer that he will be found.but let us pray aright! not accordig to our lusts but to the will of God and if we do not lknow what to pray the Holy Spirit will give us what to pray for with groanings that cannot be uttered(see the account where"Jesus wept)

AMEN, geralduk, to that part of your post!

I agree too that Christians are not to align themselves with evildoers and their false gods. True unity will never come about among confusion of doctrines about who God is and what His gospel is.

PENIEL
September 18th, 2001, 08:00 AM
Could you please give me a Reference to your statement that the

baptised people took all their clothes off before being baptised by

John the Baptist .
-----------------------------------------------------------
I see you mention the water baptism. It seems all are mis-informed on how the baptisms were done in those days.

The inductee (person to be baptised) was to shed all their close on the shore and walk naked into the river. The priest (JB in this case) then spoke a certain ordained prayer.
-----------------------------------------------------------

And also, a reference for the Tribe that Burnt people in the

Wilderness as a reference for Hell..

-----------------------------------------------------
In Jesus time, the fiery hell was a place in the desert where a certain pagan tribe tortured and burned and sacrificed humans.
---------------------------------------------------

Thanks .:confused: :confused:

rapt
September 18th, 2001, 12:09 PM
Peniel,

You'll get those answers when people start flying donkeys to avoid being hijacked by terrorists! :rolleyes:

:D

webby
March 12th, 2002, 11:47 AM
This thread is from Sept 11th.

Knight
September 11th, 2006, 10:41 AM
5 years later.

This thread is like a TOL monument.

Knight
September 11th, 2011, 11:33 AM
This thread is from 10 years ago.... today.

Nick M
September 18th, 2011, 08:15 AM
:confused:

As far as I can tell NO ONE has claimed responsibility for these attacks, lets leave the finger pointing for later and work to help those affected by these attacks now.

Kiwimac


Palestinian and Osama bin Laden groups have denied responsibility.

Which is expected....

The thing I think of that would make this *really* bad is if some McVeigh-types were behind this....

And the only thing I can think of that would be even worse is if some Army of God types were behind it....

I wasn't on TOL when this happened. Did they not know that al-qaeda tried it in 1993 with a giant truck bomb? And when they failed, bin Laden said he would use planes as missiles? Too bad we didn't take him serious. Too bad many still don't take the threat of Islam serious.

On a side note, John Doe number 3 from the OKC bombing is al-qaeda, and that is where Terry Nichols learned to make the bomb. According to the P.I. authorities, he married a Phillipina that was pregant by somebody else and brought her over. And when the paperwork was done, he went there (Philipines) to train with al-qaeda without her.

Nick M
September 28th, 2011, 07:46 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/envoy/al-qaeda-slams-iran-peddling-9-11-conspiracy-183407514.html

Maybe they will hit Iran next for the insults. Probably not.