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chrysostom
October 25th, 2014, 02:48 AM
the futurists are like the jews
both are looking into the future
the jews are looking for the messiah
and
they will know Him when they see Him
you would think a reasonable jew could look back
and
see that it must have been Jesus
so
you futurists might take some time to look at what you have missed
the spiritualists are no better
just like the futurists
the future can be anything they want it to be

back to
the apocalypse (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102616)

PureX
October 25th, 2014, 08:46 AM
The only "futurists" I know about were a bunch of artists working around the turn of the last century. It was a very heady time in that science and the industrial revolution was really beginning to have an effect on the world, and utopian idealism was running rampant among the intellectuals of the day.

We tend to think of the 1960s as a time of big cultural changes, and they were, but the end of the 1800s to the teens of the 20th century was a time of enormous cultural change. So much so that it led to two world wars and the rise global communism.

http://italianalmanac.org/06apr/futurism.jpg

Italian 'futurist' painting from that time.

S.T. Ranger
October 25th, 2014, 09:36 AM
the futurists are like the jews
both are looking into the future
the jews are looking for the messiah
and
they will know Him when they see Him
you would think a reasonable jew could look back
and
see that it must have been Jesus
so
you futurists might take some time to look at what you have missed
the spiritualists are no better
just like the futurists
the future can be anything they want it to be

back to
the apocalypse (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102616)


What I have found is that the Amillennial and Preterist positions are usually lacking in a thorough inclusion of all relevant passages. There is a tendency to spiritualize more often than not, and to both negate and deny that the Prophecy of Scripture is actually Prophecy.

It is very easy to charge error, and to vaunt one's position over another's, but, before doing that, it is usually best to understand why someone holds to a particular view and what Scripture that view is based on before doing so.

And once we have done that, there has to be an authority that can settle the dispute. For me, that authority is the Word of God, and all conversations will have to end there for the determination of a proper conclusion on a matter. If one or both sides do not view Scripture as an authoritative source to settle a matter, then there is no point in discussion. We would better spend our time debating which fruit is the best with the Baker, lol.


God bless.

rexlunae
October 25th, 2014, 11:52 AM
the futurists are like the jews
both are looking into the future
the jews are looking for the messiah
and
they will know Him when they see Him
you would think a reasonable jew could look back
and
see that it must have been Jesus
so
you futurists might take some time to look at what you have missed
the spiritualists are no better
just like the futurists
the future can be anything they want it to be

back to
the apocalypse (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102616)

I think that's actually a pretty apt comparison. There is a similarity between the Jews waiting around for a messiah, and people now waiting on a singularity that will transform life as we know it. Both seem like forms of eschatology.

chrysostom
October 25th, 2014, 12:56 PM
It is very easy to charge error, and to vaunt one's position over another's, but, before doing that, it is usually best to understand why someone holds to a particular view and what Scripture that view is based on before doing so.

okay help me understand why a futurist is a futurist

chrysostom
October 25th, 2014, 12:58 PM
I think that's actually a pretty apt comparison. There is a similarity between the Jews waiting around for a messiah, and people now waiting on a singularity that will transform life as we know it. Both seem like forms of eschatology.

which is fine as long as you take an honest look at the past to make sure you haven't missed something

PureX
October 25th, 2014, 02:10 PM
Are there people sitting around waiting for some phenomena to occur that will transform life as we know it (save us from ourselves)? I am not aware of any such groups.

S.T. Ranger
October 25th, 2014, 02:27 PM
okay help me understand why a futurist is a futurist

It is really very simple: we view the Prophecy of Scripture that has not taken place to occur in the future.

All Prophecy will be fulfilled, and there is quite a bit that has not yet taken place. For example, one issue that is very controversial is the Rapture. We see a future fulfillment of the catching away he describes, which is said to include all living believers. Nowhere in Revelation is that spoken about, and in fact the only Rapture that is seen involves the Two Witnesses of ch.11.

Revelation is often dismissed due to the figurative language used, but I would suggest we have, despite parenthetical portions, a sequential series of events given us, which describes the Tribulation from beginning to end in chronological order.

Another issue would be the thousand year Reign (of Christ): this fits with the pattern established in the Old Testament, in which while Israel was the focus of much of the Prophecy, understanding the culmination of the Promises of God in the promised New Covenant established by Christ helps us to keep in mind that the promises were not exclusive to Israel. And we do see that it was the Jews that were first brought into the Church.

There is much that has to be looked at when discussing the differences between the views (idealist, preterist, historical, and futurist), but the primary issue dividing most of us is our view of Scripture itself. It does little good to discuss prophecy if one takes the view that some of it is analogous, and some of it literal.

To be clear, about my own position, I am a literalist and a futurist that takes into consideration that while figurative language and symbols are used, they always represent a truth that is being revealed about a specific issue. For example, just because Satan is described in terms such as dragon, and serpent, I do not dismiss the fact that Satan is said to exist as a personal being. The Antichrist is called a beast, but that does not mean we dismiss the fact that he is human.

Discussion concerning eschatological matters is one of my favorite topics, but discussions are much better between pre-millennialists, I believe, because I believe we are more inclined to consider unfulfilled prophecy to still have future fulfillment. That doesn't mean conversations I have had with the amillennial and preterist brethren I have met have all been bad, but, I am very much against spiritualization of any given text, and lean more toward an exegetical and expository approach to study.

And I hope none of this offends.


God bless.

john w
October 25th, 2014, 03:08 PM
The Lord Jesus Christ coming to earth:to take care off the sin/sins issue.

Done.


The "second time," the second coming: To clean up this grave yard, this mess created by mankind, and take care of the evil issue.

The future fulfillment of prophecy.

chrysostom
November 13th, 2014, 03:50 AM
Another issue would be the thousand year Reign (of Christ):

where does it say that?

Stuu
November 13th, 2014, 04:16 AM
The Lord Jesus Christ coming to earth:to take care off the sin/sins issue.

Done.


The "second time," the second coming: To clean up this grave yard, this mess created by mankind, and take care of the evil issue.

The future fulfillment of prophecy.
It's a shame you don't think humans could take responsibility for their own wrongdoing. Take away responsibility by nailing people to things. Not a great belief system.

Stuart

S.T. Ranger
November 13th, 2014, 07:56 AM
Originally Posted by S.T. Ranger

Another issue would be the thousand year Reign (of Christ):

where does it say that?


Revelation 20

King James Version (KJV)

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


God bless.

S.T. Ranger
November 13th, 2014, 07:59 AM
It's a shame you don't think humans could take responsibility for their own wrongdoing. Take away responsibility by nailing people to things. Not a great belief system.

Stuart

It's incredible that you ignore that man very much tries to cover his wrongdoing.

And you understand that God took those nails upon Himself, right? He provided a means by which the penalty for their wrongdoing could be atoned for.


God bless.

Stuu
November 14th, 2014, 12:25 AM
It's incredible that you ignore that man very much tries to cover his wrongdoing.
I know, there are a lot of christians about these days.


And you understand that God took those nails upon Himself, right? He provided a means by which the penalty for their wrongdoing could be atoned for.
Yes, and that is about the most immoral offer you could make to anyone. You remove the last gasp of humanity from a person by taking away their responsibility for their actions.

Nasty hobby, this christianity. If there really is a god that behaves in the way you say, I think we should just ignore it and maybe it will go away and leave us in peace.

Of course, based on all the evidence, if it does exist then it seems to have done that already.


God bless.
Very low chance of that, I would say.

Stuart

Mark SeaSigh
November 14th, 2014, 12:30 AM
Atheist: I don't Hate God, I don't believe In God; I just talk a lot of Smack about Him every day of my Life.

=M=

Hater Much?

rstrats
November 14th, 2014, 06:24 AM
S.T. Ranger,

re: "And you understand that God took those nails upon Himself, right?"

Are you suggesting that those nails - being nailed to something - would otherwise have to be taken by us if we didn't meet certain requirements?

chrysostom
May 30th, 2015, 02:29 PM
the future can be anything you want it to be

Totton Linnet
May 30th, 2015, 04:53 PM
the future can be anything you want it to be

Often the future events are in the likeness of past events and prophecies can be fulfilled twice.

Sealeaf
May 30th, 2015, 10:15 PM
I was proud to call myself a futurist. But I was not aware it had any religious connotation. Color me confused.

chrysostom
June 15th, 2015, 04:53 AM
how can you be a futurist
if
you haven't checked out the past
and
your preconceived views on the apocalypse may be preventing you from recognizing certain events in history that could satisfy the prophecy

Sealeaf
June 15th, 2015, 02:20 PM
Oh, by "futurist" you mean someone focused on the end times. That is just a waste of time. Jesus told us what to do about the end times. We are to live as if He is coming back tomorrow.
I was referring to people who are doing their best to predict the future based on projections from currently observed trends.

chrysostom
October 7th, 2015, 04:42 AM
Oh, by "futurist" you mean someone focused on the end times.

no

one who ignores history which may fulfill what has been predicted
and
continues to look into the future to satisfy their preconceived notions

musterion
October 7th, 2015, 05:03 AM
the futurists are like the jews
both are looking into the future
the jews are looking for the messiah
and
they will know Him when they see Him
you would think a reasonable jew could look back
and
see that it must have been Jesus
so
you futurists might take some time to look at what you have missed
the spiritualists are no better
just like the futurists
the future can be anything they want it to be

back to
the apocalypse (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102616)

You still write the worst poetry ever.

SaulToPaul
October 7th, 2015, 06:54 AM
the futurists are like the jews
both are looking into the future
the jews are looking for the messiah
and
they will know Him when they see Him
you would think a reasonable jew could look back
and
see that it must have been Jesus
so
you futurists might take some time to look at what you have missed
the spiritualists are no better
just like the futurists
the future can be anything they want it to be

back to
the apocalypse (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102616)
:chuckle:

Interplanner
October 7th, 2015, 08:14 AM
There are things at the core that are the same between Judaism and dispensational futurism, but it is not the future things that are definitive about this. It is more a matter of not accepting what the NT says is fulfilled, or means by fulfillment. The great contrasts of Paul in his Acts 26 presentation show us this.

chrysostom
October 27th, 2015, 05:26 AM
the futurists are mad

Desert Reign
October 27th, 2015, 06:01 AM
Are there people sitting around waiting for some phenomena to occur that will transform life as we know it (save us from ourselves)? I am not aware of any such groups.

The only thing that will transform this world is the Gospel. Jesus Christ has already come and he is looking for people of faith in his church to work through.

Those who spend a lot of time predicting the end and refining their predictions and then making new predictions whenever their old predictions turn out - as they inevitably will do - to be false, have abnegated their responsibility to live for Jesus and to transform the world by spreading the kingdom of God. They have essentially admitted defeat. They have admitted that the church has no power and are just waiting, while doing nothing, for another solution (a non-existent one) to get them out of trouble. Well, they are doing something: they are making a nuisance of themselves.

SaulToPaul
October 27th, 2015, 07:12 AM
the future can be anything they want it to be



And if you ignore enough details, you can make the past fit ANY prophecy.

chrysostom
October 27th, 2015, 07:19 AM
And if you ignore enough details, you can make the past fit ANY prophecy.

that is not true

in fact history can help us interpret what is in the apocalypse
if
you are reasonable

chair
October 27th, 2015, 07:49 AM
the futurists are like the jews
both are looking into the future
the jews are looking for the messiah
and
they will know Him when they see Him
you would think a reasonable jew could look back
and
see that it must have been Jesus...

you would think entirely wrong. But that has been the Christian way for centuries.

disturbo
October 27th, 2015, 07:53 AM
And if you ignore enough details, you can make the past fit ANY prophecy.
I agree with you. It's so easy for preterist, or those who believe in a progressive fulfillment, (historicism) to make claim that prophecy is already fulfilled. And much more difficult to understand it in the future sense. What mankind did in the distant past has little bearing as to what will come down as fulfilled prophecy.

An example of this is the heads and horns of the beast(s). They are ALL end-time figures and every aspect of these beast(s) is FUTURE. They don't represent past kings or kingdoms. The beast(s) are complete end-time entities.

chrysostom
October 27th, 2015, 07:53 AM
you would think entirely wrong. But that has been the Christian way for centuries.

what is wrong with it?

who is the most significant person of all time?

Jesus

how can you not consider Him?

chair
October 27th, 2015, 08:16 AM
what is wrong with it?

who is the most significant person of all time?

Moses.
Or, if you like, the Buddha, or Mohammed, or...


Jesus

how can you not consider Him?

He didn't achieve even the most basic Jewish messianic goals. There really is no reason to consider him.

chrysostom
October 27th, 2015, 08:31 AM
He didn't achieve even the most basic Jewish messianic goals.

who set your goals?

the ot shows you all never really got it right

chair
October 27th, 2015, 08:56 AM
who set your goals?

the ot shows you all never really got it right

Nah. You Christians managed to reinterpret and mistranslate the Hebrew Bible to make it match your ideas.

Have you ever actually read the OT?

chrysostom
October 27th, 2015, 09:02 AM
Nah. You Christians managed to reinterpret and mistranslate the Hebrew Bible to make it match your ideas.

Have you ever actually read the OT?

most of it

I was over half way through when I decided to do the nt
and
never got back to it
but
I am all over daniel because of my interest in the apocalypse

didn't you say daniel was not one of your books?

I may have read all of what you consider your books

SaulToPaul
October 27th, 2015, 10:11 AM
that is not true

in fact history can help us interpret what is in the apocalypse
if
you are reasonable

And if you ignore enough details, you can make the past fit ANY prophecy.

You have done it for years on TOL.

HisServant
October 27th, 2015, 10:30 AM
And if you ignore enough details, you can make the past fit ANY prophecy.

You have done it for years on TOL.

If you ignore the details you can also forget the past.

Futurists read apocalyptic writings in scripture in a literal sense, which is something that was never intended.

It takes a lot harder work than they are willing to do to truly understand what they are reading.

Anyhow, history and the early church (pre Roman corruption) is not on the futurists side.

chrysostom
October 27th, 2015, 10:32 AM
And if you ignore enough details, you can make the past fit ANY prophecy.

You have done it for years on TOL.

nice to know that you are paying attention

the details I am ignoring are based on what you think the future holds
and
that is based on an incorrect interpretation
like
does it not include a third temple?
would you like to discuss that?

my details are well documented even though tol deletes them as fast as I construct them

where exactly are your details?

patrick jane
October 27th, 2015, 10:53 AM
And if you ignore enough details, you can make the past fit ANY prophecy.

You have done it for years on TOL.

Nostradamus ? :rapture:

SaulToPaul
October 27th, 2015, 10:54 AM
Nostradamus ? :rapture:

Yes, chrys will claim the abomination of desolation is the dome of the Rock , for example. He has to ignore 90% of the details in Daniel to do so, however.

Silliness.

chrysostom
October 27th, 2015, 10:59 AM
Yes, chrys will claim the abomination of desolation is the dome of the Rock , for example. He has to ignore 90% of the details in Daniel to do so, however.

Silliness.

tell us who is the king of the north
if
it is not Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abd_al-Malik_ibn_Marwan)

SaulToPaul
October 27th, 2015, 11:00 AM
tell us who is the king of the north
if
it is not Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abd_al-Malik_ibn_Marwan)

:chuckle:

Silly.

chrysostom
October 27th, 2015, 11:02 AM
:chuckle:

Silly.

so you can't tell us who the king of the north is
but
you have reason to believe I am wrong

what is the reason?

SaulToPaul
October 27th, 2015, 11:05 AM
so you can't tell us who the king of the north is
but
you have reason to believe I am wrong

what is the reason?

How would I know who it will be?
Why do you ignore 90% of the details in Daniel about this King?

chrysostom
October 27th, 2015, 11:14 AM
How would I know who it will be?
Why do you ignore 90% of the details in Daniel about this King?

please name a few details that are not consistent with
Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan
being the king of the north

Right Divider
October 27th, 2015, 11:17 AM
When was Zechariah 14 fulfilled?

SaulToPaul
October 27th, 2015, 11:24 AM
When was Zechariah 14 fulfilled?

Fulfilled in the new Jerusalem, Rome.

14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

Right Divider
October 27th, 2015, 11:40 AM
Fulfilled in the new Jerusalem, Rome.

14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
Thanks, I missed that memo. :think:

Jerusarome.

disturbo
October 27th, 2015, 06:02 PM
Yes, chrys will claim the abomination of desolation is the dome of the Rock , for example. He has to ignore 90% of the details in Daniel to do so, however.

Silliness.

Tell us why the abomination DOESN'T take place at the Dome area? What details point elsewhere in Daniel?

fzappa13
October 27th, 2015, 06:17 PM
It is really very simple: we view the Prophecy of Scripture that has not taken place to occur in the future.

All Prophecy will be fulfilled, and there is quite a bit that has not yet taken place. For example, one issue that is very controversial is the Rapture. We see a future fulfillment of the catching away he describes, which is said to include all living believers. Nowhere in Revelation is that spoken about, and in fact the only Rapture that is seen involves the Two Witnesses of ch.11.

Revelation is often dismissed due to the figurative language used, but I would suggest we have, despite parenthetical portions, a sequential series of events given us, which describes the Tribulation from beginning to end in chronological order.

Another issue would be the thousand year Reign (of Christ): this fits with the pattern established in the Old Testament, in which while Israel was the focus of much of the Prophecy, understanding the culmination of the Promises of God in the promised New Covenant established by Christ helps us to keep in mind that the promises were not exclusive to Israel. And we do see that it was the Jews that were first brought into the Church.

There is much that has to be looked at when discussing the differences between the views (idealist, preterist, historical, and futurist), but the primary issue dividing most of us is our view of Scripture itself. It does little good to discuss prophecy if one takes the view that some of it is analogous, and some of it literal.

To be clear, about my own position, I am a literalist and a futurist that takes into consideration that while figurative language and symbols are used, they always represent a truth that is being revealed about a specific issue. For example, just because Satan is described in terms such as dragon, and serpent, I do not dismiss the fact that Satan is said to exist as a personal being. The Antichrist is called a beast, but that does not mean we dismiss the fact that he is human.

Discussion concerning eschatological matters is one of my favorite topics, but discussions are much better between pre-millennialists, I believe, because I believe we are more inclined to consider unfulfilled prophecy to still have future fulfillment. That doesn't mean conversations I have had with the amillennial and preterist brethren I have met have all been bad, but, I am very much against spiritualization of any given text, and lean more toward an exegetical and expository approach to study.

And I hope none of this offends.


God bless.

Hey, I like the way your head works ... Don't be discouraged by those less thoughtful ... there are actually quite a few folks who frequent this joint that have two spare neurons to rub together ... they just usually hang back until there is something of substance to comment on ... said occasions growing more infrequent as of late ... sad to say.

disturbo
October 27th, 2015, 06:22 PM
Fulfilled in the new Jerusalem, Rome.

14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

I know a lot of people believe it was fulfilled but the first two verses prove that it was never fulfilled.

Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, and your spoil will be divided in your midst. For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; the city shall be taken, the houses rifled, and the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, but the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

When Rome invaded Jerusalem in 65-70 AD there was nearly nothing left. Their spoil, "was not divided" and half the city did not go into captivity, and there was no 'remnant' of people that were not cut off from the city. The entire city is NOT overthrown in Zech. 14, but WAS in 70AD.

People will never convince me that Zecharia 14 is fulfilled.

Jesus gave us one very suttle clue in Mathew 24. The Western Wall will fall and that's a major 'sign' the end-times are here. Jews lay claim to the Wall, and so do the Muslims/Palestinians. It's NOW a real problem. The Palestinians want the Jews out.

So what does this have to do with Israel, the anti-Christ, and the Dome?

The wall probably falls in the next invasion of Israel. Israel will at least lose East Jerusalem and probably more. Eventually, (maybe as much as 3.5 years after the wall falls), the man of sin makes his appearance in either the Al'Aqsa mosque or the Dome area. The goal of Muslims is to make the Dome area the Islamic capital of their WORLD Caliphate.

Right Divider
October 27th, 2015, 06:39 PM
I know a lot of people believe it was fulfilled but the first two verses prove that it was never fulfilled.

Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, and your spoil will be divided in your midst. For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; the city shall be taken, the houses rifled, and the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, but the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

When Rome invaded Jerusalem in 65-70 AD there was nearly nothing left. Their spoil, "was not divided" and half the city did not go into captivity, and there was no 'remnant' of people that were not cut off from the city. The entire city is NOT overthrown in Zech. 14, but WAS in 70AD.

People will never convince me that Zecharia 14 is fulfilled.

Jesus gave us one very suttle clue in Mathew 24. The Western Wall will fall and that's a major 'sign' the end-times are here. Jews lay claim to the Wall, and so do the Muslims/Palestinians. It's NOW a real problem. The Palestinians want the Jews out.

So what does this have to do with Israel, the anti-Christ, and the Dome?

The wall probably falls in the next invasion of Israel. Israel will at least lose East Jerusalem and probably more. Eventually, (maybe as much as 3.5 years after the wall falls), the man of sin makes his appearance in either the Al'Aqsa mosque or the Dome area. The goal of Muslims is to make the Dome area the Islamic capital of their WORLD Caliphate.
STP was joking, oh clueless one.

disturbo
October 27th, 2015, 07:34 PM
STP was joking, oh clueless one.
I realize that. But you would be surprised how many people believe it's fulfilled. It's a fruitless argument which is what I expect from you on occasion.

Hey. I feel quite honored to have made your list of undesirables. I'm in good company. I'll strive to make all four categories.

Right Divider
October 27th, 2015, 07:35 PM
I realize that. But you would be surprised how many people believe it's fulfilled. It's a fruitless argument which is what I expect from you on occasion.

Hey. I feel quite honored to have made your list of undesirables. I'm in good company.
No, you're in bad company.

steko
October 27th, 2015, 07:54 PM
Tell us why the abomination DOESN'T take place at the Dome area? What details point elsewhere in Daniel?

STP didn't say that the abomination 'doesn't' take place in that area.

steko
October 27th, 2015, 07:55 PM
Fulfilled in the new Jerusalem, Rome.

14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

:rotfl:

chrysostom
November 9th, 2015, 05:33 PM
the futurists ignore history

fzappa13
November 9th, 2015, 05:39 PM
the futurists ignore history

... and historicists live in the past and trip over what lay before them for they can't see it.

patrick jane
November 9th, 2015, 05:45 PM
which makes the presentists correct

chrysostom
November 9th, 2015, 05:47 PM
take for example the thousand years
we have only one empire to consider
and
it happens to be a christian empire
where the church and state work together
how can you ignore something like that?

fzappa13
November 9th, 2015, 05:53 PM
take for example the thousand years
we have only one empire to consider
and
it happens to be a christian empire
where the church and state work together
how can you ignore something like that?

Because the vast majority of what is written of this period indicates Christ ruling on earth ... and that hasn't happened yet.

chrysostom
November 9th, 2015, 05:57 PM
Because the vast majority of what is written of this period indicates Christ ruling on earth ... and that hasn't happened yet.

it doesn't say Christ will reign

fzappa13
November 9th, 2015, 06:07 PM
it doesn't say Christ will reign

Come on, man. Really?


Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

What do you think Ezekiel 40-48 is about?

chrysostom
November 9th, 2015, 06:10 PM
Come on, man. Really?


Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
?

when two or more are gathered in His name
Christ is with them
and
they are reigning with Christ
if
they happen to be reigning

fzappa13
November 9th, 2015, 06:44 PM
when two or more are gathered in His name
Christ is with them
and
they are reigning with Christ
if
they happen to be reigning

We both know that is not how that passage reads.

chrysostom
November 9th, 2015, 06:48 PM
We both know that is not how that passage reads.

Matthew 18:20King James Version (KJV)

20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

fzappa13
November 9th, 2015, 07:58 PM
Matthew 18:20King James Version (KJV)

20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Right ... nothing about reigning there.

patrick jane
November 9th, 2015, 08:04 PM
take for example the thousand years
we have only one empire to consider
and
it happens to be a christian empire
where the church and state work together
how can you ignore something like that?

church and state ? are you kidding ? :duh:

chrysostom
November 28th, 2015, 07:02 AM
Right ... nothing about reigning there.

you have to be able to connect the dots

fzappa13
November 28th, 2015, 08:15 AM
Or, you could just let the word of God say what it says. This business of trying to shoe horn past events into a fulfillment of prophecy is no different than what the various progeny of the Millerite movement do. Every eye shall see Him. Every knee shall bow. There will be no doubt.

chrysostom
November 28th, 2015, 09:24 AM
Or, you could just let the word of God say what it says.

don't you mean what you think it means?

are you not aware of all the different interpretations?

how can you be sure of yours?

fzappa13
November 28th, 2015, 09:30 AM
don't you mean what you think it means?

are you not aware of all the different interpretations?

how can you be sure of yours?

... mmm ... Jesus hasn't shown up yet?


Doesn't mean I'm right, but, at least it doesn't preclude that ... unlike your offering. Every eye shall see Him. Every knee shall bow.

chrysostom
November 28th, 2015, 09:44 AM
... mmm ... Jesus hasn't shown up yet?


Doesn't mean I'm right, but, at least it doesn't preclude that ... unlike your offering. Every eye shall see Him. Every knee shall bow.

what are you offering?

it isn't clear
and
what do you think I am offering?
that
isn't clear either

do you have anything besides confusion?

fzappa13
November 28th, 2015, 09:52 AM
what are you offering?

it isn't clear
and
what do you think I am offering?
that
isn't clear either

do you have anything besides confusion?

You're saying Christ has ruled and reigned and I'm saying He hasn't. That's about as succinctly as I can put it.

chrysostom
November 28th, 2015, 09:56 AM
You're saying Christ has ruled and reigned and I'm saying He hasn't. That's about as succinctly as I can put it.

it should be clear
that
is not what I am saying

it doesn't say Christ will reign

why can't you see that?

I am saying clearly that the byzantine empire is the thousand years of chapter 20 of the apocalypse

how clear is that?

Right Divider
November 28th, 2015, 10:31 AM
it should be clear
that
is not what I am saying

it doesn't say Christ will reign

why can't you see that?

I am saying clearly that the byzantine empire is the thousand years of chapter 20 of the apocalypse

how clear is that?
It's so clear that we can all see that you don't have a clue as to the meaning of scripture.

chrysostom
November 28th, 2015, 10:33 AM
It's so clear that we can all see that you don't have a clue as to the meaning of scripture.

can you show me where it says Christ will reign?

Right Divider
November 28th, 2015, 10:39 AM
can you show me where it says Christ will reign?
I have before, but you're to fixated on your "theory" to understand it. It's so simple that even a child can understand it.

For someone to reign WITH Christ means that Christ has to be reigning.

Get with it Mr. BadFormatter.

chrysostom
November 28th, 2015, 11:24 AM
I have before, but you're to fixated on your "theory" to understand it. It's so simple that even a child can understand it.

For someone to reign WITH Christ means that Christ has to be reigning.

Get with it Mr. BadFormatter.

why doesn't it say Christ will reign with them?

fzappa13
November 28th, 2015, 01:12 PM
why doesn't it say Christ will reign with them?

Rev 20: 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Are you blind?

chrysostom
November 28th, 2015, 02:03 PM
Rev 20: 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Are you blind?

who will reign with Him?

fzappa13
November 28th, 2015, 02:41 PM
who will reign with Him?

Just back up two verses:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


... or you can back up 14 chapters:


Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Right Divider
November 28th, 2015, 02:43 PM
why doesn't it say Christ will reign with them?
Because they will reign with Him!

Again, apparently too hard for you to understand.

Christ is the KING. That is WHY they will reign WITH HIM.

chrysostom
November 28th, 2015, 02:51 PM
Because they will reign with Him!

Again, apparently too hard for you to understand.

Christ is the KING. That is WHY they will reign WITH HIM.

I understand they will reign
and
they will reign with Him
if
they are gathered in His name

it is all their in your bible

Right Divider
November 28th, 2015, 03:44 PM
I understand they will reign
and
they will reign with Him
if
they are gathered in His name

it is all their in your bible
There you go.

chrysostom
November 30th, 2015, 11:10 AM
There you go.

you mad people think it is cute to change what someone says

it isn't
but
your kind are protected

we are not impressed

try making a real argument

SaulToPaul
November 30th, 2015, 11:12 AM
you mad people think it is cute to change what someone says



What did he change?

Nothing.

chrysostom
December 19th, 2015, 06:54 AM
the future can be anything you want it to be
just like your interpretation of the bible
as long as you can ignore history

fzappa13
December 19th, 2015, 07:20 AM
Somebody ducked me like a head high Nolan Ryan fastball.

chrysostom
December 19th, 2015, 07:23 AM
the futurists are like the jews
both are looking into the future
the jews are looking for the messiah
and
they will know Him when they see Him
you would think a reasonable jew could look back
and
see that it must have been Jesus
so
you futurists might take some time to look at what you have missed
the spiritualists are no better
just like the futurists
the future can be anything they want it to be

back to
the apocalypse (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102616)

back to the future

chrysostom
January 10th, 2016, 05:57 AM
with the future
anything is possible

Interplanner
January 10th, 2016, 07:55 AM
with the future
anything is possible



Actually, no, the letter to Hebrews tells us that God won't be going back to the sacrificial system, or really any part of the theocracy in an ordinary sense in this life (the NHNE is a different reality). Did I mention it was the letter to the Hebrews?

fzappa13
January 10th, 2016, 09:54 AM
Actually, no, the letter to Hebrews tells us that God won't be going back to the sacrificial system, or really any part of the theocracy in an ordinary sense in this life (the NHNE is a different reality). Did I mention it was the letter to the Hebrews?

Did I mention Ezekiel 40- 48?

chrysostom
January 31st, 2016, 05:10 AM
what do you want the future to look like?

fzappa13
January 31st, 2016, 06:01 PM
what do you want the future to look like?

No tears would be a nice start ... and regaining access to the Tree of Life would be cool.

chrysostom
February 22nd, 2016, 05:31 AM
No tears would be a nice start ..

do you expect that in this life?

fzappa13
February 22nd, 2016, 07:15 AM
do you expect that in this life?

No. Do you?

chrysostom
February 22nd, 2016, 07:22 AM
No. Do you?

of course not
it should be obvious to you
that
we are talking about the future in this life as prophesied in the apocalypse

fzappa13
February 22nd, 2016, 07:30 AM
of course not
it should be obvious to you
that
we are talking about the future in this life as prophesied in the apocalypse

I agree ... does that make me a futurist?

chrysostom
February 22nd, 2016, 07:36 AM
I agree ... does that make me a futurist?

no

fzappa13
February 22nd, 2016, 07:40 AM
no


Well, good ... because I don't like it when people call me names.

I mean besides Matt.

fzappa13
February 22nd, 2016, 07:43 AM
... or Mateo.

HisServant
February 22nd, 2016, 08:04 AM
the futurists are like the jews
both are looking into the future
the jews are looking for the messiah
and
they will know Him when they see Him
you would think a reasonable jew could look back
and
see that it must have been Jesus
so
you futurists might take some time to look at what you have missed
the spiritualists are no better
just like the futurists
the future can be anything they want it to be

back to
the apocalypse (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102616)

Well... RCCers are futurists also. So be careful in your nomenclature.

chrysostom
March 20th, 2016, 05:20 AM
Well... RCCers are futurists also. So be careful in your nomenclature.

the church has no official position on the apocalypse
-but
-preterism is the most common amongst catholics
-I am an historicist
-the vast majority of events can be found in history

Totton Linnet
March 20th, 2016, 06:01 AM
My own humble view is those events in history which appear to be the fulfilment of prophecy are pictures and shadows of the main events yet to come....those events will be much greater and final in their issue.

SaulToPaul
March 23rd, 2016, 09:03 AM
the church has no official position on the apocalypse


:chuckle:

Do you not find that odd?

Did not Peter have an official position on it?

Was the official position too unimportant to pass along in apostolic succession?

These are valid questions, which you will never answer.

chrysostom
April 2nd, 2016, 03:16 AM
:chuckle:

Do you not find that odd?

Did not Peter have an official position on it?

Was the official position too unimportant to pass along in apostolic succession?

These are valid questions, which you will never answer.

I don't think peter knew what many of the details were
-like who the antichrist would be
-or
-what the second beast would be
-all that was in the future
-exactly where you are looking
-keep watching

fzappa13
April 2nd, 2016, 10:39 AM
My own humble view is those events in history which appear to be the fulfilment of prophecy are pictures and shadows of the main events yet to come....those events will be much greater and final in their issue.



... or maybe better said, history is prophecy. "The thing that hath been it is that which shall be" and all that.

chrysostom
April 28th, 2016, 05:33 AM
... or maybe better said, history is prophecy. "The thing that hath been it is that which shall be" and all that.

some history was prophecy
-if
-you don't ignore it

SaulToPaul
April 28th, 2016, 06:01 AM
some history was prophecy
-if
-you don't ignore it

Why do you ignore many details within prophecy in order to shoe horn it into history?

fzappa13
April 28th, 2016, 06:11 PM
:Popcorn:

chrysostom
June 1st, 2016, 09:43 AM
stp is a futurist
-he goes from the ot to future
-he stumbled on paul

SaulToPaul
June 1st, 2016, 11:01 AM
stp is a futurist
-he goes from the ot to future
-he stumbled on paul

If history does not fit, do not force it.
Why would you do such a thing?

Are you dishonest?

steko
June 1st, 2016, 11:09 AM
stp is a futurist
-he goes from the ot to future
-he stumbled on paul

Does the Bible presently hold any event as being future?

chrysostom
June 1st, 2016, 11:57 AM
Does the Bible presently hold any event as being future?
the second coming

SaulToPaul
June 1st, 2016, 12:04 PM
the second coming

Futurist.

Why can't you look into history and find an event to shoe horn the 2nd coming into?

Preterists are able to do it.

steko
June 1st, 2016, 12:13 PM
the second coming

And what did the prophets say would accompany the second coming?

SaulToPaul
June 1st, 2016, 12:16 PM
And what did the prophets say would accompany the second coming?

:up:

All of the stuff chrys has placed in the past via harebrained theories.
He is inconsistent.

fzappa13
June 2nd, 2016, 06:52 PM
some history was prophecy
-if
-you don't ignore it

All Biblical history is prophecy.

chrysostom
June 25th, 2016, 05:38 AM
And what did the prophets say would accompany the second coming?

you tell me

Interplanner
June 25th, 2016, 08:00 AM
you tell me


You would want to check what the NT says would accompany the 2nd coming. Mt24B says that the angels gather believers from all corners, even the heavens, as this world is destroyed. Likewise 2 Peter 3, in which there are no details in or about Israel.

The 'prophetic details' about Israel in Mt24A and similar are about the events of the horrible revolt of the 6th decade that ended with a completely destroyed Israel. Israel was destroyed as he said. Believers were already out of there and continued in his mission.

chrysostom
June 25th, 2016, 08:31 AM
You would want to check what the NT says would accompany the 2nd coming. Mt24B says that the angels gather believers from all corners, even the heavens, as this world is destroyed. Likewise 2 Peter 3, in which there are no details in or about Israel.

The 'prophetic details' about Israel in Mt24A and similar are about the events of the horrible revolt of the 6th decade that ended with a completely destroyed Israel. Israel was destroyed as he said. Believers were already out of there and continued in his mission.

are you suggesting the second coming has already happened?

Epoisses
June 25th, 2016, 08:37 AM
are you suggesting the second coming has already happened?

You can't have a rational dialogue with them on this. Their minds just won't accept that Jesus was speaking to the last generation.

chrysostom
June 25th, 2016, 09:35 AM
You can't have a rational dialogue with them on this. Their minds just won't accept that Jesus was speaking to the last generation.

how can you have a rational dialogue with anyone if they don't understand what you are saying?

Epoisses
June 25th, 2016, 04:58 PM
how can you have a rational dialogue with anyone if they don't understand what you are saying? Just fake it.

chrysostom
June 25th, 2016, 05:18 PM
Just fake it.

so I should pretend to understand what you are saying?
-sorry
-I don't understand what you are saying
-can you understand that?

Epoisses
June 25th, 2016, 10:11 PM
so I should pretend to understand what you are saying?
-sorry
-I don't understand what you are saying
-can you understand that?

I have some bad news for you. Daniel and Revelation are not history lessons. They contain important information so that you will be able to stand in the day of the Lord and not fall away. All the world will worship the beast and his image except for those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

PneumaPsucheSoma
June 25th, 2016, 11:42 PM
the futurists are like the jews
both are looking into the future
the jews are looking for the messiah
and
they will know Him when they see Him
you would think a reasonable jew could look back
and
see that it must have been Jesus
so
you futurists might take some time to look at what you have missed
the spiritualists are no better
just like the futurists
the future can be anything they want it to be

back to
the apocalypse (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102616)

Futurism (especially Dispensationalism) is the most allegorical and figurative of all the eschatology views, including Idealism.

The entirety of the Revelation has to be made into future figurative metaphors that are not literal in any sense, yet demanding that some (not all) numbers are literal.

But the worst thing is their scathing double standard-driven attack on Amillennialism, which embraces the non-tangible as literalism along with the tangible.

References to 144,000 and 1,000 are "literal" (tangible and quantifiable), but the 7 spirits of God is symbolic or some "literal" division of the Spirit of God.

Forged blades coming out of the front of a head is allegedly not "literal", but other things are. It's a selective hodge-podge of picking and choosing what is "literal" (tangible), with almost everything representing other things by metaphor but still being considered "literal" in the same way that other idiomatic things are recognized as such.

Futurism is the most self-impuging and inconsistent anthropocentric approach possible, when it's the revelation of Jesus Christ rather than the revelatin of stuff that's gonna happen in "my" lifetime because I'm so important and it was written all about me and my timeframe on earth.

Considering that Futurism was introduced by a Jesuit during the Counter-Reformation, and the formatted into a 19th-century heresy by several deluded and insignificant men; it's not even tenable based on its own inconsistencies with itself and in false criticism of other views.

Full Preterism suffers from the same lack of credibility from a late introduction by a similar Jesuit source.

Idealism is usually employed in the manner of insisting actual historical people and places and events were purely non-existent and allegorical, then that extreme of that view is no more tenable to Futurism or Full Preterism (wherein there is no remaining bodily return of the Lord as the Second Advent).

Historicism is varied, but is too often a parallel of Futurism; always looking for historial events to be the fullfilment of figurative things in the text.

And any denial of Amillennialism denies that Believers are in the kingdom NOW. The only "literal" view is Amillennialism.

chrysostom
June 26th, 2016, 03:58 AM
Historicism is varied, but is too often a parallel of Futurism; always looking for historial events to be the fullfilment of figurative things in the text.


historicism actually forces your interpretation of the apocalypse
-and
-there is nothing wrong with that
-if
-it fits
-you have to make all the pieces fit

PneumaPsucheSoma
June 26th, 2016, 06:38 PM
historicism actually forces your interpretation of the apocalypse
-and
-there is nothing wrong with that
-if
-it fits
-you have to make all the pieces fit

That's why the valid eschatological view is appropriately Ecclectic, with the authentic address of Preterist (Partial), Idealist, Historicist, and Futurist tenets properly applied, and with an Amillennial basis.

chrysostom
June 26th, 2016, 06:45 PM
That's why a valid escatological view is appropriately Ecclectic, with the appropriate address of Preterist (Partial), Idealist, Historicist, and Futurist tenets properly applied, and with an Amillennial basis.

how can you ignore a thousand year christian empire?

PneumaPsucheSoma
June 26th, 2016, 07:51 PM
how can you ignore a thousand year christian empire?

I don't. :)

SaulToPaul
June 27th, 2016, 06:04 AM
-it fits
-you have to make all the pieces fit
They don't. You can't make them fit without sacrificing details.

fzappa13
June 29th, 2016, 10:09 PM
... and before I forget, you need to do something about your avatar, Chrys ...

*cough* Silverado *cough*

fzappa13
June 29th, 2016, 10:17 PM
Considering that Futurism was introduced by a Jesuit during the Counter-Reformation, and the formatted into a 19th-century heresy by several deluded and insignificant men; it's not even tenable based on its own inconsistencies with itself and in false criticism of other views.


... and there I thought I invented it ... :doh:


I guess it's true ... there is no new thing under the sun ...

PneumaPsucheSoma
July 1st, 2016, 05:30 PM
... and there I thought I invented it ... :doh:


I guess it's true ... there is no new thing under the sun ...

It's a perversion of Chiliasm, which was a very early view within the pre-Nicene period. Nothing new. Just more jacked up.

fzappa13
July 1st, 2016, 09:25 PM
It's a perversion of Chiliasm, which was a very early view within the pre-Nicene period. Nothing new. Just more jacked up.


Well, you see, I never had the benefit of all this wonderful extra-biblical scholarship when I set forth to understand the Bible. I just read it for a few years and tried to understand it as best I could. So, in more colloquial terms, "If I'm wrong, I came by it honest."

Interplanner
July 2nd, 2016, 06:23 AM
Well, you see, I never had the benefit of all this wonderful extra-biblical scholarship when I set forth to understand the Bible. I just read it for a few years and tried to understand it as best I could. So, in more colloquial terms, "If I'm wrong, I came by it honest."


Yes, fzappa, many Christians are taught that the Bible is a rather accessible, direct, today's market communication, without anything historical to consider.

Take a phrase like '...and the truth will set you free.' While it can be true in many circumstances, he was talking to and about Judaism, to start with.

This idea that there is absolutely direct and unqualified communication in the Bible, without any homework, is worst when it comes to eschatology and the Rev. As you know, there are millions of attempts by many people with a background in fast-food service or oil-changing to dive into the thing 2000 years, 8000 miles and 1 religion away from its original audience. Do we do this with anything else out there with similar features--like Tacitus' Histories? And there are a million books out there claiming to have the "key" to the Rev (but none of them seem to know they are the millionth attempt).

I'm perfectly aware that the same thing/book can be summarized as a love letter from God, and it is, but let's not be too quick to use catchy, juicy phrases, like 'I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me' unless they are things Christ really wants done.

Epoisses
July 2nd, 2016, 07:09 AM
Yes, fzappa, many Christians are taught that the Bible is a rather accessible, direct, today's market communication, without anything historical to consider.

Take a phrase like '...and the truth will set you free.' While it can be true in many circumstances, he was talking to and about Judaism, to start with.

This idea that there is absolutely direct and unqualified communication in the Bible, without any homework, is worst when it comes to eschatology and the Rev. As you know, there are millions of attempts by many people with a background in fast-food service or oil-changing to dive into the thing 2000 years, 8000 miles and 1 religion away from its original audience. Do we do this with anything else out there with similar features--like Tacitus' Histories? And there are a million books out there claiming to have the "key" to the Rev (but none of them seem to know they are the millionth attempt).

I'm perfectly aware that the same thing/book can be summarized as a love letter from God, and it is, but let's not be too quick to use catchy, juicy phrases, like 'I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me' unless they are things Christ really wants done.

The day of the Lord is the day of the Lord's appearing broken up into the 1st and 2nd comings. Prophecy is not all about the 1st coming and not all about the 2nd. The Olivet discourse is a great example.

fzappa13
July 2nd, 2016, 07:14 AM
Yes, fzappa, many Christians are taught that the Bible is a rather accessible, direct, today's market communication, without anything historical to consider.

Take a phrase like '...and the truth will set you free.' While it can be true in many circumstances, he was talking to and about Judaism, to start with.

This idea that there is absolutely direct and unqualified communication in the Bible, without any homework, is worst when it comes to eschatology and the Rev. As you know, there are millions of attempts by many people with a background in fast-food service or oil-changing to dive into the thing 2000 years, 8000 miles and 1 religion away from its original audience. Do we do this with anything else out there with similar features--like Tacitus' Histories? And there are a million books out there claiming to have the "key" to the Rev (but none of them seem to know they are the millionth attempt).

I'm perfectly aware that the same thing/book can be summarized as a love letter from God, and it is, but let's not be too quick to use catchy, juicy phrases, like 'I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me' unless they are things Christ really wants done.

Well, we all get one life to show God and everybody just how it ought to be done. Whether it's changing oil or understanding what we've read in the Bible. I'm sure you are every bit as satisfied with the results of your efforts as I am with mine. Now, the Question is ... which, if either of us, is going to meet with Christ's approval.

chrysostom
July 2nd, 2016, 07:24 AM
Well, we all get one life to show God and everybody just how it ought to be done. Whether it's changing oil or understanding what we've read in the Bible. I'm sure you are every bit as satisfied with the results of your efforts as I am with mine. Now, the Question is ... which, if either of us, is going to meet with Christ's approval.

this is why Jesus gave us His church

fzappa13
July 2nd, 2016, 07:45 AM
this is why Jesus gave us His church

Ah, Chrys ... in a world full of inconsistencies your unwavering constantness is, in a certain way, comforting.

chrysostom
July 25th, 2016, 07:53 PM
Ah, Chrys ... in a world full of inconsistencies your unwavering constantness is, in a certain way, comforting.

the church is built on a rock
-it don't move

fzappa13
July 27th, 2016, 05:33 PM
the church is built on a rock
-it don't move

The church will be gathered one of a city and two of a family and they will fly.

chrysostom
July 27th, 2016, 05:35 PM
The church will be gathered one of a city and two of a family and they will fly.

what does that mean?

fzappa13
July 27th, 2016, 09:25 PM
what does that mean?

That means those whom the lamb will choose for His bride are scattered and He will gather them upon His return. Contrary to popular opinion they are not the congregation of the First Baptist Church of Toledo, The San Antonio Dioceses, nor any of the other groupings man has chosen.

Jer 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.

16 And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.

17 At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.


Isa 60:8 Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows?

fzappa13
July 27th, 2016, 11:58 PM
... and please notice, PPS, verse 16. This is yet another indicator of those ordinances no longer applicable and those that are at that time ... from a prophetic standpoint.

chrysostom
August 22nd, 2016, 09:20 AM
The church will be gathered one of a city and two of a family and they will fly.

isn't the church where you gather the sheep?

fzappa13
August 22nd, 2016, 04:46 PM
isn't the church where you gather the sheep?

No. The church is the Bride and she shall be betrothed in Jerusalem when her Husband comes to claim her.

chrysostom
September 26th, 2016, 04:59 AM
how do you watch the future?

SaulToPaul
September 26th, 2016, 06:18 AM
how do you watch the future?

When you plow the field, why do you look back?
You might turn into a pillar of salt.

Right Divider
September 26th, 2016, 07:55 AM
how do you watch the future?
Where is the shift key on your keyboard?

(Never mind, you don't know).

chrysostom
October 8th, 2016, 03:43 PM
When you plow the field, why do you look back?
You might turn into a pillar of salt.

"they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."
-
you guys sure know how to wrest

SaulToPaul
October 8th, 2016, 03:51 PM
"they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."
-
you guys sure know how to wrest

:chuckle:

Sure, and Rome is the new Jerusalem.
That's wrestlemania there.

Zeke
October 10th, 2016, 05:25 PM
Is that an observable future kingdom where nothing is new under the sun, or the none observable eternal kingdom that is veiled from flesh and blood?

Zeke
October 10th, 2016, 05:27 PM
Rome and all her siblings that reject her still follow her dogma where it counts.

Right Divider
October 11th, 2016, 10:39 AM
Is that an observable future kingdom where nothing is new under the sun, or the none observable eternal kingdom that is veiled from flesh and blood?
Are you the Zeke from Mozambique?

Zeke
October 11th, 2016, 09:19 PM
Are you the Zeke from Mozambique?

You're the observational dogma specialist, majoring in secular spiritualism with a Babylonian ID that allows you to buy and sell, Another pretender who can't grasp Luke 17:20-21..
https://youtu.be/FyM8NVl4yBY

Right Divider
October 12th, 2016, 07:15 PM
You're the observational dogma specialist, majoring in secular spiritualism with a Babylonian ID that allows you to buy and sell, Another pretender who can't grasp Luke 17:20-21..
Hahahahaha .... I always feel so ashamed when Zeke the mystic guru burns me.... NOT!!! :wave2:

Zeke
October 12th, 2016, 08:48 PM
Hahahahaha .... I always feel so ashamed when Zeke the mystic guru burns me.... NOT!!! :wave2:

Dead man walking trying to egocentric me :rolleyes:, go back to you're worldly ID existence you're not ready for prime time spirituality boy.

Right Divider
October 12th, 2016, 08:51 PM
Dead man walking trying to egocentric me :rolleyes:, go back to you're worldly ID existence you're not ready for prime time spirituality boy.
Wow.... good EGO comeback.

chrysostom
October 23rd, 2016, 03:25 PM
we can only watch the past
-and-
we are supposed to watch

Right Divider
October 23rd, 2016, 05:18 PM
we can only watch the past
-and-
we are supposed to watch:juggle:

SaulToPaul
October 24th, 2016, 08:53 AM
we can only watch the past
-and-
we are supposed to watch

:chuckle:

We can watch the present.

Right Divider
October 24th, 2016, 12:14 PM
:chuckle:

We can watch the present.
You can. But it will make you tense. :cigar:

SaulToPaul
October 24th, 2016, 12:21 PM
You can. But it will make you tense. :cigar:

I do enjoying watching the past: Barney Miller, Columbo, Perry Mason

chrysostom
November 2nd, 2016, 02:19 AM
the futurists are like the jews
both are looking into the future
the jews are looking for the messiah
and
they will know Him when they see Him
you would think a reasonable jew could look back
and
see that it must have been Jesus
so
you futurists might take some time to look at what you have missed
the spiritualists are no better
just like the futurists
the future can be anything they want it to be

back to
the apocalypse (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102616)

we have history -
a lot of history
-and-
it didn't stop with the ot

Right Divider
November 2nd, 2016, 11:47 AM
we have history -
a lot of history
-and-
it didn't stop with the ot
A history of lies and abuse is nothing to brag about.

SaulToPaul
November 2nd, 2016, 12:32 PM
we have history -
a lot of history
-and-
it didn't stop with the ot

If the unveiling of Jesus Christ is about his Second Coming, you are wasting your time trying to force it into the past.

Why are you obsessed with creating schemes?

Zeke
November 2nd, 2016, 10:49 PM
I do enjoying watching the past: Barney Miller, Columbo, Perry Mason

What no Mannix?
https://youtu.be/mznUMYY7YC8

SaulToPaul
November 3rd, 2016, 07:03 AM
What no Mannix?
https://youtu.be/mznUMYY7YC8

I used to dig Mannix a little bit, but it was never in my top 5.

Zeke
November 3rd, 2016, 06:44 PM
How about this one?
https://youtu.be/5HNWhVXcjV8

Zeke
November 3rd, 2016, 06:47 PM
Our!
https://youtu.be/EnPIOH8bCfk

chrysostom
November 15th, 2016, 03:12 AM
If the unveiling of Jesus Christ is about his Second Coming, you are wasting your time trying to force it into the past.

Why are you obsessed with creating schemes?

what?
-
I am still looking forward to the second coming

SaulToPaul
November 15th, 2016, 09:54 AM
what?
-
I am still looking forward to the second coming

The Revelation of Jesus Christ is all bout the second coming. Yet you have 99% of it the in past.

Why?

chrysostom
November 15th, 2016, 10:23 AM
The Revelation of Jesus Christ is all bout the second coming.

not true
-
it is all about the first coming
-and-
that is why john the baptist said
-
the time is near

SaulToPaul
November 15th, 2016, 10:24 AM
not true
-
it is all about the first coming
-and-
that is why john the baptist said
-
the time is near

:chuckle:

Crazy. It is all about the Second Coming.
It's not even debatable.

Zeke
November 15th, 2016, 10:50 AM
Futurist have the same mentality that infected the minds of the secular Jews/dogmatic religion John 2:20-22, (risen in man who is spiritually dead/asleep not physical flesh) the Kingdom comes without observation Luke 17:20-21, the only temple built by man will be a false one. 2Cor 3:6 is a clue and hint that the right division in scripture is between the letter/milk and the Spiritual/meat intent of the stories, two kingdoms in scripture are separated into temporal/observed and eternal/invisible, one is a symbolic shadows the other cast that shadow in allegorical stories Galatians 4:24, Acts 17:24, 1Cor 3:16.

chrysostom
November 29th, 2016, 09:47 AM
:chuckle:

Crazy. It is all about the Second Coming.
It's not even debatable.

who determines that?

SaulToPaul
November 29th, 2016, 09:48 AM
who determines that?

Scott Hahn and Padre Pio.

chrysostom
December 9th, 2016, 05:46 AM
are you watching the future?

Right Divider
December 9th, 2016, 08:46 AM
are you watching the future?
:french:

SaulToPaul
December 9th, 2016, 03:05 PM
are you watching the future?

You can only watch the present.

Right Divider
December 9th, 2016, 03:26 PM
You can only watch the present.
Especially around Christmas time. :french:

chrysostom
December 17th, 2016, 04:58 AM
the future can be anything you want it to be -
it will always fit your interpretation
-and-
you can rewrite history
-but-
you can never get all the historians to agree
-
the reality of history
-
are you watching?

Right Divider
December 17th, 2016, 12:05 PM
the future can be anything you want it to be -
it will always fit your interpretation
-and-
you can rewrite history
-but-
you can never get all the historians to agree
-
the reality of history
-
are you watching?
:french:

steko
December 17th, 2016, 12:08 PM
the future can be anything you want it to be -
it will always fit your interpretation
-and-
you can rewrite history
-but-
you can never get all the historians to agree
-
the reality of history
-
are you watching?

Who is the final authority?

Right Divider
December 17th, 2016, 12:09 PM
Who is the final authority?
This should be good.

chrysostom
December 30th, 2016, 05:43 AM
Who is the final authority?

in the end you will be judged by God
-but-
it will be based on what was bound and loosed in heaven

Right Divider
December 30th, 2016, 01:06 PM
in the end you will be judged by God
-but-
it will be based on what was bound and loosed in heaven
You're funny. You're following the wrong apostle.

SaulToPaul
December 30th, 2016, 01:08 PM
You're funny. You're following the wrong apostle.

An entire religious system built on an apostle of the circumcision...fascinating isn't it?
The masses (of people) are dumb.

Right Divider
December 30th, 2016, 01:12 PM
An entire religious system built on an apostle of the circumcision...fascinating isn't it?
The masses (of people) are dumb.
And, they forced one to be more important than the other eleven so that they would follow him. Dumb indeed (but they've got plenty of "powerful arguments" to back it up).

chrysostom
January 14th, 2017, 08:25 AM
You're funny. You're following the wrong apostle.

we are following the one who built His church on a rock

Right Divider
January 14th, 2017, 08:41 AM
we are following the one who built His church on a rock
Wrong church too.

You RCCer's are Israelite wannabees.

chrysostom
January 14th, 2017, 01:29 PM
Wrong church too.



where is the right one?

Right Divider
January 14th, 2017, 02:19 PM
where is the right one?
The church which is His body does not have a location. You can join any time that you like. But you have to give up you religion.

chrysostom
February 3rd, 2017, 04:08 AM
the futurists are like the jews
both are looking into the future
the jews are looking for the messiah
and
they will know Him when they see Him
you would think a reasonable jew could look back
and
see that it must have been Jesus
so
you futurists might take some time to look at what you have missed
the spiritualists are no better
just like the futurists
the future can be anything they want it to be

back to
the apocalypse (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102616)

the historicist looks at history for events that might fulfill prophecy
-
this of course depends on ones interpretation of what has been prophesied
-and-
history can be used to get the correct interpretation

Right Divider
February 3rd, 2017, 08:34 AM
the historicist looks at history for events that might fulfill prophecy
-
this of course depends on ones interpretation of what has been prophesied
-and-
history can be used to get the correct interpretation
:french:

SaulToPaul
February 3rd, 2017, 10:34 AM
the historicist looks at history for events that might fulfill prophecy
-
this of course depends on ones interpretation of what has been prophesied
-and-
history can be used to get the correct interpretation

And you have to leave out MANY details to make it fit.
Why would you do that?

chrysostom
March 11th, 2017, 05:42 AM
And you have to leave out MANY details to make it fit.
Why would you do that?

it doesn't say Jesus will reign

SaulToPaul
March 11th, 2017, 05:43 AM
it doesn't say Jesus will reign

:chuckle:

Read 1 Cor 15

rstrats
March 11th, 2017, 06:36 AM
SaulToPaul,
re: "You can only watch the present."


How long does the present last before it becomes the past? Or how long does the present last before the future begins?

chrysostom
April 8th, 2017, 03:19 AM
:chuckle:

Read 1 Cor 15

read rev 20

SaulToPaul
April 8th, 2017, 05:08 AM
read rev 20

Read 1 Cor 15,


"for he must reign...till"

Right Divider
April 8th, 2017, 11:23 AM
Read 1 Cor 15,


"for he must reign...till"
Understanding plain and simple language in scripture does not seem to be an RC strength.

SaulToPaul
April 8th, 2017, 01:15 PM
Understanding plain and simple language in scripture does not seem to be an RC strength.

chrys is mainly interested in fiction, but it is entertaining

chrysostom
May 17th, 2017, 04:01 AM
back to the future for stp where anything is possible

Danoh
May 17th, 2017, 04:32 AM
It is really very simple: we view the Prophecy of Scripture that has not taken place to occur in the future.

All Prophecy will be fulfilled, and there is quite a bit that has not yet taken place. For example, one issue that is very controversial is the Rapture. We see a future fulfillment of the catching away he describes, which is said to include all living believers. Nowhere in Revelation is that spoken about, and in fact the only Rapture that is seen involves the Two Witnesses of ch.11.

Revelation is often dismissed due to the figurative language used, but I would suggest we have, despite parenthetical portions, a sequential series of events given us, which describes the Tribulation from beginning to end in chronological order.

Another issue would be the thousand year Reign (of Christ): this fits with the pattern established in the Old Testament, in which while Israel was the focus of much of the Prophecy, understanding the culmination of the Promises of God in the promised New Covenant established by Christ helps us to keep in mind that the promises were not exclusive to Israel. And we do see that it was the Jews that were first brought into the Church.

There is much that has to be looked at when discussing the differences between the views (idealist, preterist, historical, and futurist), but the primary issue dividing most of us is our view of Scripture itself. It does little good to discuss prophecy if one takes the view that some of it is analogous, and some of it literal.

To be clear, about my own position, I am a literalist and a futurist that takes into consideration that while figurative language and symbols are used, they always represent a truth that is being revealed about a specific issue. For example, just because Satan is described in terms such as dragon, and serpent, I do not dismiss the fact that Satan is said to exist as a personal being. The Antichrist is called a beast, but that does not mean we dismiss the fact that he is human.

Discussion concerning eschatological matters is one of my favorite topics, but discussions are much better between pre-millennialists, I believe, because I believe we are more inclined to consider unfulfilled prophecy to still have future fulfillment. That doesn't mean conversations I have had with the amillennial and preterist brethren I have met have all been bad, but, I am very much against spiritualization of any given text, and lean more toward an exegetical and expository approach to study.

And I hope none of this offends.


God bless.

I hold to an Acts 9 aka Mid-Acts Dispensational view, more or less for reasons very similar to your own.

More or less in the sense that I refuse to allow myself to marry any aspect of the views I hold to, as further refinement in understanding is ever right around the corner.

Both our positions are often misunderstood by the various Allegorists.

Not only do such read into the Scripture; but into the views espoused by one strain of Futurist or another.

So, great post, Futurist :thumb:

SaulToPaul
May 17th, 2017, 06:07 AM
back to the future for stp where anything is possible

Yes, details matter, and they cannot be shoehorned into the past in order to promote harebrained theories and prop ourselves up as an enlightened one for TOL to admire.

chrysostom
June 8th, 2017, 12:24 PM
the futurists are like the jews
both are looking into the future
the jews are looking for the messiah
and
they will know Him when they see Him
you would think a reasonable jew could look back
and
see that it must have been Jesus
so
you futurists might take some time to look at what you have missed
the spiritualists are no better
just like the futurists
the future can be anything they want it to be

back to
the apocalypse (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102616)
the future will always be your friend
-if-
history can't help you

SaulToPaul
June 8th, 2017, 01:39 PM
the future will always be your friend
-if-
history can't help you

Details matter, if history doesn't fit, it must be future.

chrysostom
June 8th, 2017, 02:42 PM
Details matter, if history doesn't fit, it must be future.

fit what? -
your interpretation?

Right Divider
June 8th, 2017, 02:46 PM
fit what? -
your interpretation?
His is WAY better than yours.

SaulToPaul
June 9th, 2017, 05:41 AM
fit what? -
your interpretation?

Fit the prophecy.

Zeke
June 9th, 2017, 07:25 AM
I hold to an Acts 9 aka Mid-Acts Dispensational view, more or less for reasons very similar to your own.

More or less in the sense that I refuse to allow myself to marry any aspect of the views I hold to, as further refinement in understanding is ever right around the corner.

Both our positions are often misunderstood by the various Allegorists.

Not only do such read into the Scripture; but into the views espoused by one strain of Futurist or another.

So, great post, Futurist :thumb:

Yet nothing happens under the sun thats new except to the earthy man who is asleep spiritually, the spirit has no beginning or end and no geneology so enjoy the dream. 2cor 3:6.

Zeke
June 9th, 2017, 07:38 AM
Fit the prophecy.
Fits the dead letter that is only an image/shadow/of the inward kingdom while traditions teaches the shadows/images as the visible kingdom that is of this world, Truman show.

SaulToPaul
June 9th, 2017, 08:21 AM
Fits the dead letter that is only an image/shadow/of the inward kingdom while traditions teaches the shadows/images as the visible kingdom that is of this world, Truman show.

Far out!

:wave2:

Zeke
June 9th, 2017, 01:23 PM
Far out!

:wave2:

You are far in traditions well thats for sure, Revelation is the only rope that will get you out of that darkness.

chrysostom
July 18th, 2017, 04:22 AM
Fit the prophecy.

only the future can possibly fit your interpretation of prophecy

SaulToPaul
July 18th, 2017, 12:03 PM
only the future can possibly fit your interpretation of prophecy

True, and I take the prophecies at face value.
I do not have to twist, turn, and force them to fit the past, leaving out 75% of the details.

chrysostom
August 17th, 2017, 08:59 AM
True, and I take the prophecies at face value.

do you expect the four horsemen to ride in on horses?

Truster
August 17th, 2017, 09:01 AM
do you expect the four horsemen to ride in on horses?

They did ride forth when John saw them do so.

chrysostom
August 17th, 2017, 09:15 AM
They did ride forth when John saw them do so.

so you are expecting them to ride in on horses

Truster
August 17th, 2017, 09:21 AM
so you are expecting them to ride in on horses

I am fully aware of what the riders and the horses symbolically represent.

PS you didn't ask a question you made a statement and it is as ridiculously ignorant as any that I have heard on TOL.

chrysostom
August 17th, 2017, 09:24 AM
I am fully aware of what the riders and the horses symbolically represent.

tell us what that is

Truster
August 17th, 2017, 09:27 AM
tell us what that is


"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the ecclesia".


What I hear is for me and for those I would call brother.

chrysostom
August 17th, 2017, 09:29 AM
"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the ecclesia".


What I hear is for me and for those I would call brother.

do you all have a secret hand shake?

Truster
August 17th, 2017, 09:39 AM
do you all have a secret hand shake?

You fulfil the scripture that there will be mockers in the last days. Like others on here you either get angry, vile, spiteful or just stupid in the face of truth. Your problem and condemnation, not mine.

chrysostom
August 17th, 2017, 09:50 AM
You fulfil the scripture that there will be mockers in the last days. Like others on here you either get angry, vile, spiteful or just stupid in the face of truth. Your problem and condemnation, not mine.

just tell us what you believe -
I believe you are my brother
-so-
you can tell me what you believe

Truster
August 17th, 2017, 09:57 AM
just tell us what you believe -
I believe you are my brother
-so-
you can tell me what you believe

You most certainly are not my brother. You do not recognise my Father's voice.

chrysostom
August 17th, 2017, 09:59 AM
You most certainly are not my brother. You do not recognise my Father's voice.

so why are you in my thread?

Truster
August 17th, 2017, 10:05 AM
so why are you in my thread?

It's not your thread it belongs to Knight. I was shining light into the darkness.