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Bright Raven
August 18th, 2014, 03:25 PM
Do you believe it?

Cruciform
August 18th, 2014, 03:32 PM
The historic Christian Church has always believed and taught the full divinity and full humanity of Jesus Christ (see this (http://scripturecatholic.com/jesus_christ_divinity.html)).

Omniskeptical
August 18th, 2014, 04:23 PM
Teaching the full humanity of Christ is impossible if you believe he is divine. What is the point of copying God?

genuineoriginal
August 18th, 2014, 04:28 PM
1 John 5:5
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Krsto
August 18th, 2014, 04:29 PM
The historic Christian Church has always believed and taught the full divinity and full humanity of Jesus Christ (see this (http://scripturecatholic.com/jesus_christ_divinity.html)).

Sure, your church defines "historic Christian church" as those who agree with the Council of Nicea, yet the majority of the historic Christian church after that council reversed that decision. You simply and conveniently exclude them from your definition of the Church so you can maintain your sock puppet of an infallible magisterium.

Circular reasoning.

Krsto
August 18th, 2014, 04:31 PM
Do you believe it?

Yes but with a biblical definition of "God", not with your heretical understanding.

Cruciform
August 18th, 2014, 04:34 PM
Teaching the full humanity of Christ is impossible if you believe he is divine.
An odd claim, since the historic Christian Church has been doing just that for two millennia now.

Cruciform
August 18th, 2014, 04:36 PM
Sure, your church defines "historic Christian church" as those who agree with the Council of Nicea, yet the majority of the historic Christian church after that council reversed that decision. You simply and conveniently exclude them from your definition of the Church so you can maintain your sock puppet of an infallible magisterium.
Merely a Straw Man Fallacy on your part.

Cruciform
August 18th, 2014, 04:39 PM
Yes but with a biblical definition of "God", not with your heretical understanding.
Unfortunately for your assumptions, your preferred man-made non-Christian sect possesses no inherent doctrinal authority whatsoever to bindingly declare what is, and what is not, a "heresy."

Omniskeptical
August 18th, 2014, 04:49 PM
An odd claim, since the historic Christian Church has been doing just that for two millennia now.Morelike, 1900 years. They have not been teaching the full humanity with full Godship, because no one can believe it without warping their mind, and putting God in and limiting him in the me-box. It matters little what the Early Church Fathers believed, because they didn't even believe Genesis.

genuineoriginal
August 18th, 2014, 04:57 PM
Unfortunately for your assumptions, your preferred man-made non-Christian sect possesses no inherent doctrinal authority whatsoever to bindingly declare what is, and what is not, a "heresy."

The church of Rome has no inherent doctrinal authority whatsoever.

Omniskeptical
August 18th, 2014, 05:01 PM
Unfortunately for your assumptions, your preferred man-made non-Christian sect possesses no inherent doctrinal authority whatsoever to bindingly declare what is, and what is not, a "heresy."Your cult of lying married priests shouldn't have any authority!! How dare you claim what you should not have?!

jamie
August 18th, 2014, 05:04 PM
I do not believe there are multiple supreme beings or that it requires multiple persons to make one God. I believe in having back-up but who can fill God's shoes?

My God is Jesus' God.

Omniskeptical
August 18th, 2014, 05:06 PM
Believe or not, my God is an awesome God, unlike Cruciform's.

oatmeal
August 18th, 2014, 05:29 PM
Do you believe it?

It? Do I believe it? it what?

Pierac
August 18th, 2014, 06:24 PM
Isaiah 44:6 - "Thus says the LORD... there is no God but me."

Isaiah 45:5 - "I am the LORD and there is no other, there is no God besides me."

Isaiah 45:6 - "Men may know that there is none besides me. I am the LORD, there is no other."

We all know that God the Son has a Father (God the Father). But the question that must be asked and answered is: can God the Son have a God? Every pastor that I have ever asked this question to has always said "Of course not!" But is that the answer given in Scripture? No, on the contrary. As you will see, the prophesied Messiah in the Old Testament is said to have a God. Then you will see that Jesus the Messiah fulfills those prophesies because he most definitely has a God. If you come to the conclusion that Jesus has a God, then it might be time to rethink and research the Doctrine of the Trinity. Because if God the Son has a God, then there are TWO GODS!

To make this as simple as possible, I am not going to list the huge amount of Scriptures which have God (not "Father") and Jesus in the same sentence, or Scriptures that have God speaking to Jesus, or Jesus speaking to God. We will only be concerned with Scriptures that prove that Jesus has a God.



OLD TESTAMENT MESSIANIC PROPHESIES

Psalm 89:26-28 - "He (the Messiah) shall say of me. "You are my father, my God, my rock, my savior". And I will make him the firstborn."

Micah 5:3-4 - "He (the Messiah) shall stand firm and shepherd his flock by the strength of the LORD, in the Majestic name of the LORD, his God."

Psalm 22:10-11 - "To you I was committed at birth. From my mother’s womb you are my God."

NEW TESTAMENT

Jesus Speaking:

John 20:17 - "I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."

Matthew 27:46 - "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"

Revelation 3:12 - "Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God."

Revelation 3:2 - "for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God."

Paul:

Ephesians 1:3 - "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Ephesians 1:17 - "I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father..."

2 Corinthians 1:3 - "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

2 Corinthians 11:31 - "The God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ knows, He who is blessed forever, that I do not lie."

Peter:

1 Peter 1:3 - "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

John:

Revelation 1:6 - "To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, who has made us into a kingdom, priests for his God and Father."

When one reads the preceding verses, there is one thing that is a fact. That Jesus Christ has a God. Jesus speaks of his God, Peter Paul and John mention the God of Jesus Christ.

So why do we never hear a sermon or anything else on the God of Jesus Christ? The reason is that people who believe in the Trinity cannot explain this obvious fact. They have absolutely no explanation for it. They claim that God the Son cannot have a God because that would mean that there are two Gods. But there it is in black and white. Jesus has a God.

"Now this is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ" (John 17:3). Jesus’ own words.


:Poly::sherlock:
Paul

tomlapalm
August 18th, 2014, 06:32 PM
Teaching the full humanity of Christ is impossible if you believe he is divine. What is the point of copying God?

He is fully human and fully God.

just as you are fully human and fully an eternal spiritual being, who is not God,

tomlapalm
August 18th, 2014, 06:35 PM
Isaiah 44:6 - "Thus says the LORD... there is no God but me."

Isaiah 45:5 - "I am the LORD and there is no other, there is no God besides me."

Isaiah 45:6 - "Men may know that there is none besides me. I am the LORD, there is no other."

We all know that God the Son has a Father (God the Father). But the question that must be asked and answered is: can God the Son have a God? Every pastor that I have ever asked this question to has always said "Of course not!" But is that the answer given in Scripture? No, on the contrary. As you will see, the prophesied Messiah in the Old Testament is said to have a God. Then you will see that Jesus the Messiah fulfills those prophesies because he most definitely has a God. If you come to the conclusion that Jesus has a God, then it might be time to rethink and research the Doctrine of the Trinity. Because if God the Son has a God, then there are TWO GODS!

To make this as simple as possible, I am not going to list the huge amount of Scriptures which have God (not "Father") and Jesus in the same sentence, or Scriptures that have God speaking to Jesus, or Jesus speaking to God. We will only be concerned with Scriptures that prove that Jesus has a God.



OLD TESTAMENT MESSIANIC PROPHESIES

Psalm 89:26-28 - "He (the Messiah) shall say of me. "You are my father, my God, my rock, my savior". And I will make him the firstborn."

Micah 5:3-4 - "He (the Messiah) shall stand firm and shepherd his flock by the strength of the LORD, in the Majestic name of the LORD, his God."

Psalm 22:10-11 - "To you I was committed at birth. From my mother’s womb you are my God."

NEW TESTAMENT

Jesus Speaking:

John 20:17 - "I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."

Matthew 27:46 - "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"

Revelation 3:12 - "Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God."

Revelation 3:2 - "for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God."

Paul:

Ephesians 1:3 - "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Ephesians 1:17 - "I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father..."

2 Corinthians 1:3 - "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

2 Corinthians 11:31 - "The God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ knows, He who is blessed forever, that I do not lie."

Peter:

1 Peter 1:3 - "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

John:

Revelation 1:6 - "To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, who has made us into a kingdom, priests for his God and Father."

When one reads the preceding verses, there is one thing that is a fact. That Jesus Christ has a God. Jesus speaks of his God, Peter Paul and John mention the God of Jesus Christ.

So why do we never hear a sermon or anything else on the God of Jesus Christ? The reason is that people who believe in the Trinity cannot explain this obvious fact. They have absolutely no explanation for it. They claim that God the Son cannot have a God because that would mean that there are two Gods. But there it is in black and white. Jesus has a God.

"Now this is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ" (John 17:3). Jesus’ own words.


:Poly::sherlock:
Paul


not only are you ONLY quoting the verses that show Jesus as fully Human, you are ignoring the verses that Jesus (and God) show that Jesus is God.

God also speaks that He is Jesus,, or bodily human.

Zech 12 10, in which GOD is speaking.

Zec 12:10

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

steko
August 18th, 2014, 06:39 PM
Do you believe it?

Yes!


Job 9:32 For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment.
Job 9:33 Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both.

The Lord Jesus is the only qualified 'daysman' capable of laying His hand on the finite(man), as well as the infinite(GOD).

Any other person falls miserably short.

Only the Son knows the Father to the same degree that the Father knows the Son. This knowledge demands Divinity.

Caino
August 18th, 2014, 06:39 PM
Yes, both human and divine. The spirit son added human to his resume. We now have a God that knows what it's like to be human.

Totton Linnet
August 18th, 2014, 07:04 PM
We are with the apostles...they proclaimed Him as Lord and God

Omniskeptical
August 18th, 2014, 09:11 PM
He is fully human and fully God.

just as you are fully human and fully an eternal spiritual being, who is not God,If he is god, I'm a demigod. God is not a man so as to repent.

Omniskeptical
August 18th, 2014, 09:13 PM
Yes, both human and divine. The spirit son added human to his resume. We now have a God that knows what it's like to be human.He already knew what it was like to be human. Notice how he raised his son. Does thou think theekself special?

Omniskeptical
August 18th, 2014, 09:14 PM
We are with the apostles...they proclaimed Him as Lord and GodThe apostles did not call him anything [other than] Lord and son. They didn't call him god.

Krsto
August 18th, 2014, 10:35 PM
Merely a Straw Man Fallacy on your part.

Your typical response when you are unable to offer a rebuttal. Thanks for admitting failure yet again.:carryon:

keypurr
August 18th, 2014, 10:46 PM
I love the God of my Lord Jesus Christ

steko
August 18th, 2014, 10:46 PM
The apostles did not call him anything Lord and son. They didn't call him god.


Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.


Joh 20:28 και απεκριθη ο θωμας και ειπεν αυτω ο κυριος μου και ο θεος μου [the Lord of me and the God of me]

OCTOBER23
August 18th, 2014, 11:07 PM
The historic Christian Church has always believed and taught the full divinity and full humanity of Jesus Christ

The Roman Multi-pagan Catholic church ....

2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof:
from such turn away.

Nick M
August 19th, 2014, 01:41 AM
The apostles did not call him anything Lord and son. They didn't call him god.

Titus 2

13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

I could go on and on and on, but instead have a question. Are we to worship anyone other than the Lord our God? Think Exodus 20.

JosephR
August 19th, 2014, 01:48 AM
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.





Joh 20:28 και απεκριθη ο θωμας και ειπεν αυτω ο κυριος μου και ο θεος μου [the Lord of me and the God of me]


El gibbor or the mighty god is what St.Thomas declared . Not YhVh.

For me the best point is when He did speak the name of God when He said, "before Moses was I AM"

Not that it matters to you, my friend steko.i know you are a trinitarian.

However when it was declared who He is as a rabbi or teacher He "Jesus" did not correct there either, as the argument goes when St.Thomas declared my Lord and Mighty God , He was not corrected either.


Posted from the TOL App!

jamie
August 19th, 2014, 08:13 AM
Titus 2

13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ


I wonder if our great God and Savior Jesus Christ is greater than his Father. The great God and Savior Jesus Christ said that the Father is his God and our God.

Also the great God and Savior Jesus Christ is Savior only to those his God and our God gives to him.

Our great God and Savior Jesus Christ can only do what his God and Savior permits him to do. Yes, our great God and Savior Jesus Christ has a Savior who raised him from death per their prior agreement.

So we have a great God and Savior Jesus Christ and a greater God and Savior, our Father, who will resurrect us just as he did Jesus.

BigBoof1959
August 19th, 2014, 08:48 AM
I don't understand how the claim can be made that Jesus could not be fully human and fully God, when the original purpose of man was to be God's image. Jesus is the perfect image of God as a man, but He also transcends that exceedingly. He is the fulness of the Godhead in bodily form. If Jesus is not God, then God the Father allowed the scriptures to be written in such a way as to portray Him as God, and to enable people to fight over His divinity for millenia.

genuineoriginal
August 19th, 2014, 09:07 AM
I don't understand how the claim can be made that Jesus could not be fully human and fully God, when the original purpose of man was to be God's image. Jesus is the perfect image of God as a man, but He also transcends that exceedingly. He is the fulness of the Godhead in bodily form.
How is that fulness any different than this one?

Ephesians 3:19
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.


If Jesus is not God, then God the Father allowed the scriptures to be written in such a way as to portray Him as God, and to enable people to fight over His divinity for millenia.
Wouldn't it be better to ask why people think God did not mean what He said in His scriptures in all those places where He shows that Jesus and God are not the same being instead of wondering why God allowed people to find a tiny number of verses that can be used to say that Jesus is God?

jamie
August 19th, 2014, 09:32 AM
He is the fulness of the Godhead in bodily form.


Good point and we are flesh of his flesh and one spirit with him. So whatever Jesus is, so are we.

Scripture says Jesus is a man, a man with a spirtual body but that does not make him the supreme being.

My vote is that we just have one supreme being who is one person, not a multiplicity of persons.

aikido7
August 19th, 2014, 09:42 AM
The historic Christian Church has always believed and taught the full divinity and full humanity of Jesus Christ (see this (http://scripturecatholic.com/jesus_christ_divinity.html)).Not always. Of course, your statement depends on whether or not you believe Christianity was the religion held by those first early followers of Jesus, or that it was the religion that became part of the Roman Empire under Constantine.

There were so many conflicts and battles within the new faith that Constantine basically invited the different factions to a lavish banquet, surrounded by armed guards, and insisted they stay in the same room until they could hammer out a consensus agreement.

Those who were closely connected with Jesus (The Jerusalem "Pillars" of Jesus's brother James and Peter) were eventually marginalized and died out. There are some sections in the Pauline letters that address the conflict between Paul and the Pillars.

Caino
August 19th, 2014, 09:48 AM
He already knew what it was like to be human. Notice how he raised his son. Does thou think theekself special?

Before the incarnation when was God human?

Nick M
August 19th, 2014, 10:43 AM
Although we knew him according to the flesh, we know his thus no longer...

Nick M
August 19th, 2014, 10:44 AM
I wonder if our great God and Savior Jesus Christ is greater than his Father.

I and my father are one....

Pierac
August 19th, 2014, 01:00 PM
not only are you ONLY quoting the verses that show Jesus as fully Human, you are ignoring the verses that Jesus (and God) show that Jesus is God.

God also speaks that He is Jesus,, or bodily human.

Zech 12 10, in which GOD is speaking.

Zec 12:10

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Clearly the Hebrew concept of Agency.... STILL You can not be God and then claim to have a GOD!!! :doh:

Learn how the Hebrew write before you post your western views on to another culture! :rolleyes:

:Poly::sherlock:
Paul

Pierac
August 19th, 2014, 01:20 PM
I and my father are one....

One what? Yet.... I and my wife are one!!!

Mar 10:8 AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh.

Flesh??? Yep.... but not fully man and fully woman in one being!!! :doh:

You make it easy....


Mar 14:62 And Jesus said, "I am; and you shall see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING WITH THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."

This is why Stephen being full of the Holy Spirit saw the GOD of the son of man!

Act 7:55 But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God;
Act 7:56 and he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."

Jesus was at the right hand of GOD... His GOD!!!

We don't have 2 Gods Nick M!!!



:Poly::sherlock:
Paul

jamie
August 19th, 2014, 01:30 PM
I and my father are one....


And we are one with them...

Just one big family.

Pierac
August 19th, 2014, 01:30 PM
Although we knew him according to the flesh, we know his thus no longer

Really... I can say this about everyone who lived in the last 6000 years...

Oh... sorry ... you believe in the immortal soul... so if your immortal... then what's the big deal about Jesus dying in the flesh??? :think:

If your grandma was immortal then Jesus doesn't have crap on her!!!! :rolleyes:

Yea... your not seeing the importance Of Jesus resurrection are you!!! :doh:

:Poly::sherlock:
Paul

Pierac
August 19th, 2014, 01:36 PM
And we are one with them...

Just one big family.

Really... one big holy family? I think not! Only GOD is HOLY!!!

What... you think using biblical words make you holy??? :rolleyes:

Biblical idiot!!!
:Poly::sherlock:
Paul

Caino
August 19th, 2014, 01:50 PM
"If you have seen me you have seen......" a temporary man-god jr who will rule for a short time while the father is on vacation, then I will return and just be a carpenter in and around Jerusalem.

Pierac
August 19th, 2014, 01:52 PM
Before the incarnation when was God human?

Scripture please.... So show me in scripture where our Holy God is to be reduced to equality with HIS creation!!! :rolleyes:

God is Holy... :think:

Think before you post... :rolleyes:

:Poly::sherlock:
Paul

HisServant
August 19th, 2014, 01:55 PM
I believe Jesus is who he says he is... nothing more and nothing less.

God is his father, and whoever has seen him has seen the father.

Trying to deduce anything further than that is doing a disservice to who inspired the scriptures.

Bright Raven
August 19th, 2014, 02:10 PM
Scripture please.... So show me in scripture where our Holy God is to be reduced to equality with HIS creation!!! :rolleyes:

God is Holy... :think:

Think before you post... :rolleyes:

:Poly::sherlock:
Paul

Matthew 17:5 King James Version (KJV)

5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

Caino
August 19th, 2014, 02:17 PM
Scripture please.... So show me in scripture where our Holy God is to be reduced to equality with HIS creation!!! :rolleyes:

God is Holy... :think:

Think before you post... :rolleyes:

:Poly::sherlock:
Paul

The creator Son, who is the Father of us and the Son of I AM, became a human and lived according to the will of his Father. He then returned to Heaven and is now our God.

Cruciform
August 19th, 2014, 02:21 PM
Morelike, 1900 years. They have not been teaching the full humanity with full Godship, because no one can believe it without warping their mind, and putting God in and limiting him in the me-box. It matters little what the Early Church Fathers believed, because they didn't even believe Genesis.
The merely human traditions that you've derived from your preferred man-made non-Catholic sect are noted.

:yawn:

Cruciform
August 19th, 2014, 02:27 PM
Your cult of lying married priests shouldn't have any authority!! How dare you claim what you should not have?!
That one historic Church which can be traced in its ordained leadership back to the apostles is the Church founded by Jesus Christ himself (Mt. 16:18; 1 Tim. 3:15), and it is that Church whose teachings possesses a binding authority over the faithful. And since the late 1st century, that one historic Church has been commonly known as "the Catholic Church." This is a historical fact.

Back to Post #9.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

Cruciform
August 19th, 2014, 02:29 PM
Believe or not, my God is an awesome God, unlike Cruciform's.
Post your proof.

jamie
August 19th, 2014, 02:31 PM
Really... one big holy family? I think not Only GOD is HOLY!!!

What... you think using biblical words make you holy??? :rolleyes:

Biblical idiot!!!
:Poly::sherlock:
Paul

Hold on, Paul, I'm not saying you are holy, obviously you're not. But the church is holy.

Peter said, "But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation because it is written, 'Be ye holy for I am holy.'"

Cruciform
August 19th, 2014, 02:33 PM
Your typical response when you are unable to offer a rebuttal.
My rebuttal was to point out that your statement engaged in a logical fallacy that rendered it irrational and thus false. That fact still stands.

keypurr
August 19th, 2014, 02:42 PM
Matthew 17:5 King James Version (KJV)

5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

How does this show Jesus Christ is God?

Krsto
August 19th, 2014, 02:44 PM
My rebuttal was to point out that your statement engaged in a logical fallacy that rendered it irrational and thus false. That fact still stands.

Prove it.

Bright Raven
August 19th, 2014, 02:49 PM
How does this show Jesus Christ is God?

? Whose son is he?

Caino
August 19th, 2014, 03:15 PM
The anti Jesus is God crowd sets the bar pretty high, it's not enough to have all power and authority in heaven and on earth. He must have more of something.

Cruciform
August 19th, 2014, 03:29 PM
Prove it.
Glad to. Your Post #5 misrepresents the position of the Catholic Church. Therefore, your statements are, by definition, a Straw Man Fallacy. And thus my statement in Post #8 stands as given.

keypurr
August 19th, 2014, 06:54 PM
? Whose son is he?

Again, how does that prove that HE is God?

He is God's son, not God.

keypurr
August 19th, 2014, 06:57 PM
There is only one God. The Father of Christ.

Ktoyou
August 19th, 2014, 06:59 PM
Saved, or may be saved.
BigBoof1959, Bright Raven, Caino, Cruciform, ebenz47037, Nick M, OCTOBER23, Robert Pate, S0ZO, steko, tomlapalm, Totton Linnet

Not saved.
aikido7, jamie, keypurr, meshak, oatmeal, Omniskeptical, Pierac, Under Pressure

Ktoyou
August 19th, 2014, 07:01 PM
There is only one God. The Father of Christ.

That is because you believe there is only one dad. You assume God must be confined to human limitations, and human thought.

jamie
August 19th, 2014, 09:09 PM
Well, K, some people believe Jesus is God and some people believe Jesus is the Son of God, but maybe it doesn't matter. Maybe the terms are interchangeable. Maybe all Gods are sons and all sons are God, no difference.

Yeah, that's it. This way Jesus can be a God and God can be a son and it won't matter which term we use since they both mean the same thing.

No more confusion.

No wonder the Jews wanted to seat Jesus in his Temple.

keypurr
August 19th, 2014, 10:46 PM
Saved, or may be saved.
BigBoof1959, Bright Raven, Caino, Cruciform, ebenz47037, Nick M, OCTOBER23, Robert Pate, S0ZO, steko, tomlapalm, Totton Linnet

Not saved.
aikido7, jamie, keypurr, meshak, oatmeal, Omniskeptical, Pierac, Under Pressure

No, Jesus Christ tells us that the Father is the only true God in John 17:3. Why don't you believe him?

Caino
August 20th, 2014, 08:31 AM
No, Jesus Christ tells us that the Father is the only true God in John 17:3. Why don't you believe him?


keypurr, with due respect to your sincere beliefs, it's you who we don't believe. When you cherry-pick a verse to suit an agenda then you are bordering on promoting a dishonesty.

You carved out John 17:3 but omitted the rest of the story.


17 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:


“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.


The divinity of Christ is existential.

This prayer of the Son incarnate in human form is a divine Son communing with his divine Father.

keypurr
August 20th, 2014, 08:44 AM
keypurr, with due respect to your sincere beliefs, it's you who we don't believe. When you cherry-pick a verse to suit an agenda then you are bordering on promoting a dishonesty.



You carved out John 17:3 but omitted the rest of the story.





17 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:





“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.





The divinity of Christ is existential.



This prayer of the Son incarnate in human form is a divine Son communing with his divine Father.


I have no problem with Christ being divine. But what do you consider divine?

Your misunderstanding my friend. Christ is a created form of God. He was given the fullness of the Father. But he is a creation, he can die. He has a God, the same God we have. He was with the Father at the creation, the Father created everything through Christ.

But Jesus was born to Mary, he was a human. He is the body prepared for the spirit Christ in Heb 10:5. Christ came down from heaven and took the form of man by dwelling in Jesus. He spoke through Jesus. Jesus was not born the Christ, he was anointed as the Christ when Christ took over his being. That great change in Jesus caused him to go into the wilderness for forty days to adjust to the power he just received. Then he was tempted by Satan. God can not be tempted.

Consider what might be the correct way to see Christ as he was SENT to us. Christ is a spirit like his God. Jesus never said that he was God, neither did the Christ in him.



Posted from the TOL App!

Under Pressure
August 20th, 2014, 09:29 AM
INSANE, or may be INSANE.
BigBoof1959, Bright Raven, Caino, Cruciform, ebenz47037, Nick M, OCTOBER23, Robert Pate, S0ZO, steko, tomlapalm, Totton Linnet

Not INSANE.
aikido7, jamie, keypurr, meshak, oatmeal, Omniskeptical, Pierac, Under PressureThere. Fixed it for you.

Under Pressure
August 20th, 2014, 09:31 AM
Proposing a vote on this issue is stupid. The reality of "god" is not a popularity contest.

OCTOBER23
August 20th, 2014, 09:38 AM
You cannot vote because there is a separation of church and state

and besides Obama who is a Muslim would not allow it.

Under Pressure
August 20th, 2014, 09:45 AM
You cannot vote because there is a separation of church and state There's a separation of church and state on TOL? Really?

You didn't vote the poll in this thread? Really?

Caino
August 20th, 2014, 10:52 AM
I have no problem with Christ being divine. But what do you consider divine?

Your misunderstanding my friend. Christ is a created form of God. He was given the fullness of the Father. But he is a creation, he can die. He has a God, the same God we have. He was with the Father at the creation, the Father created everything through Christ.

But Jesus was born to Mary, he was a human. He is the body prepared for the spirit Christ in Heb 10:5. Christ came down from heaven and took the form of man by dwelling in Jesus. He spoke through Jesus. Jesus was not born the Christ, he was anointed as the Christ when Christ took over his being. That great change in Jesus caused him to go into the wilderness for forty days to adjust to the power he just received. Then he was tempted by Satan. God can not be tempted.

Consider what might be the correct way to see Christ as he was SENT to us. Christ is a spirit like his God. Jesus never said that he was God, neither did the Christ in him.



Posted from the TOL App!

You are still cherry picking, the proper way is to consider everything the miraculous Christ said and did. You come in denial then pick what seems to justify that denial.

"He" was a personality reality before this world was.

The "Divine" was not tempted, Jesus self limited his divinity as a Human while subject to the Fathers will. Besides, the temptation talk was the opinion of the writer.

I've told you 6,746 times, the human flesh of Jesus died, not his spirit. He then resurrected a form of his body that would be visible to believers.

Humans don't become Gods in heaven, only Gods are Gods.

jamie
August 20th, 2014, 11:44 AM
Humans don't become Gods in heaven, only Gods are Gods.

Jesus was human so I guess that leaves him out.

Caino
August 20th, 2014, 12:05 PM
Jesus was human so I guess that leaves him out.

You've overlooked some parts of the story, Jesus came down from heaven,:WA: he returned to heaven:rapture: with all power and authority. He is Lord and God.

genuineoriginal
August 20th, 2014, 12:16 PM
You've overlooked some parts of the story, Jesus came down from heaven,:WA: he returned to heaven:rapture: with all power and authority. He is Lord and God.

So, you are saying that Jesus is not the Son of God?

Bright Raven
August 20th, 2014, 12:17 PM
No, Jesus Christ tells us that the Father is the only true God in John 17:3. Why don't you believe him?

Why don't you believe in the revealing of Jesus Christ in the scriptures? Who was He revealed as?

Bright Raven
August 20th, 2014, 12:19 PM
I have no problem with Christ being divine. But what do you consider divine?

Your misunderstanding my friend. Christ is a created form of God. He was given the fullness of the Father. But he is a creation, he can die. He has a God, the same God we have. He was with the Father at the creation, the Father created everything through Christ.

But Jesus was born to Mary, he was a human. He is the body prepared for the spirit Christ in Heb 10:5. Christ came down from heaven and took the form of man by dwelling in Jesus. He spoke through Jesus. Jesus was not born the Christ, he was anointed as the Christ when Christ took over his being. That great change in Jesus caused him to go into the wilderness for forty days to adjust to the power he just received. Then he was tempted by Satan. God can not be tempted.

Consider what might be the correct way to see Christ as he was SENT to us. Christ is a spirit like his God. Jesus never said that he was God, neither did the Christ in him.



Posted from the TOL App!
Yes you do. Being divine implies deity.

genuineoriginal
August 20th, 2014, 12:20 PM
Why don't you believe in the revealing of Jesus Christ in the scriptures? Who was He revealed as?

Jesus was revealed as the Messiah, the Son of God.

Matthew 16:16
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Bright Raven
August 20th, 2014, 12:20 PM
Jesus was revealed as the Messiah, the Son of God.

Amen.

genuineoriginal
August 20th, 2014, 12:29 PM
Man is human.
The son of man is also human.

God is divine.
The Son of God is also divine.

So far there is no problem.
:think:


What assumptions cause the problem?

Bright Raven
August 20th, 2014, 12:33 PM
That He is human but not divine. That is the problem

genuineoriginal
August 20th, 2014, 12:41 PM
That He is human but not divine. That is the problem

That is not the problem.
Everyone that believes Jesus came in the flesh can state that Jesus is human and that Jesus is divine, even if they answer "no" to your poll.

So, what is the assumption that causes the problem?

6days
August 20th, 2014, 12:43 PM
No, Jesus Christ tells us that the Father is the only true God in John 17:3. Why don't you believe him?
We do. ... There is One God...period.
Interesting to note that God's Word describes Jesus with the same attributes that only the one true God has.
Jesus is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. He is the Truth...He is the Life.

Jesus is called God...He is called Lord..He is the King of Kings.

We know who Jesus is by His work and His actions....things only God can do. Jesus can forgive sin. He is the judge. Jesus is the Creator, and He maintains it. Jesus raises the dead.

Only God can be worshipped and we see that angels worship Jesus...people worshipped Him. And...Jesus claims equality with the Father, and the Holy Spirit.

Yes as you stated...as God's Word states...there is One true God.

Caino
August 20th, 2014, 01:07 PM
So, you are saying that Jesus is not the Son of God?

How could you conclude that? Yes he is the Son, and our Lord and God who is an existential personification of the Father-I AM. In spirit they are indistinguishable to us.

jamie
August 20th, 2014, 01:25 PM
We know who Jesus is by His work and His actions....things only God can do.


Things only God can do and did do.


Ye men of Israel, hear these words, Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you as ye yourselves also know. (Acts 2:22)

Yes, God did the works through a man approved of God, the man Jesus Christ.

Give credit to whom credit is due. God works through men his wonders to perform.

Caino
August 20th, 2014, 01:26 PM
Jesus chose as his title "Son of Man" from the Book of Enoch.




The Son of Man


Fragment of 1 Enoch (Scrolls of the Dead Sea).
Fragment of 1 Enoch (Scrolls of the Dead Sea) (©!!!)

And there I saw the One to Whom belongs the time before time, and His head was white like wool. With Him was another being, whose countenance had the appearance of a man, and his face was full of graciousness, like one of the holy angels. I asked the angel who went with me [...] concerning that son of and who he was, and whence he was, and why he went with the One to Whom belongs the time before time.

He answered and said to me: 'This is the son of man who has righteousness, with whom dwells righteousness, and who reveals all the treasures of that which is hidden, because the Lord of the spirits has chosen him, and whose lot has the pre-eminence before the Lord of the spirits in uprightness for ever. This son of man whom you have seen shall raise up the kings and the mighty from their seats and the strong from their thrones, and shall loosen the reins of the strong and break the teeth of the sinners.'

And at that hour that Son of Man was named in the presence of the Lord of the spirits, and his name before the the One to Whom belongs the time before time. Yes, before the sun and the signs were created, before the stars of the heaven were made, his name was named before the Lord of the spirits. He shall be a staff to the righteous whereon to stay themselves and not fall, and he shall be the light of the gentiles and the hope of those who are troubled of heart. All who dwell on earth shall fall down and worship before him, and will praise and bless and celebrate with song the Lord of the spirits. For this reason has he been chosen and hidden before Him, before the creation of the world and for ever more. The wisdom of the Lord of the spirits has revealed him to the holy and righteous; for he has preserved the lot of the righteous, because they have hated and despised this world of unrighteousness, and have hated all its works and ways in the name of the Lord of the spirits: for in his name they are saved, and according to his good pleasure has it been in regard to their life.


In these days downcast in countenance shall the kings of the earth have become, and the strong who possess the land because of the works of their hands, for on the day of their anguish and affliction they shall not be able to save themselves. And I will give them over into the hands of My elect: as straw in the fire so shall they burn before the face of the holy, as lead in the water shall they sink before the face of the righteous, and no trace of them shall any more be found.
And on the day of their affliction there shall be rest on the earth, and before them they shall fall and not rise again. There shall be no one to take them with his hands and raise them, for they have denied the Lord of the spirits and His Messiah. The name of the Lord of the spirits be blessed."

[1 Enoch 46.1-4;
1 Enoch 48.2-10]

keypurr
August 20th, 2014, 02:04 PM
You are still cherry picking, the proper way is to consider everything the miraculous Christ said and did. You come in denial then pick what seems to justify that denial.



"He" was a personality reality before this world was.



The "Divine" was not tempted, Jesus self limited his divinity as a Human while subject to the Fathers will. Besides, the temptation talk was the opinion of the writer.



I've told you 6,746 times, the human flesh of Jesus died, not his spirit. He then resurrected a form of his body that would be visible to believers.



Humans don't become Gods in heaven, only Gods are Gods.


We all cherry pick, but that does not change the words.

Christ was, Jesus was not at the creation.

Are you now saying that Christ was not divine as a human? I question that.

I also question that the spirit did not die. I am speaking of the Christ spirit. He came to die as a human.

Are you saying your God has limits? Mine does not. He created his exact image to do the work of creation. Christ is a created form of God, Phil 2.

None of us know it all yet Caino, learn new ideas that just might bring you some light.


Posted from the TOL App!

keypurr
August 20th, 2014, 02:07 PM
You've overlooked some parts of the story, Jesus came down from heaven,:WA: he returned to heaven:rapture: with all power and authority. He is Lord and God.


Nope, Jesus did not come down from heaven, the Christ in him did.

Who made him Lord? Hint, his God did.


Posted from the TOL App!

keypurr
August 20th, 2014, 02:08 PM
Why don't you believe in the revealing of Jesus Christ in the scriptures? Who was He revealed as?


He is the SON OF GOD, not God. Why do you question HIS WORDS.


Posted from the TOL App!

Caino
August 20th, 2014, 02:13 PM
We all cherry pick, but that does not change the words.

Christ was, Jesus was not at the creation.

Are you now saying that Christ was not divine as a human? I question that.

I also question that the spirit did not die. I am speaking of the Christ spirit. He came to die as a human.

Are you saying your God has limits? Mine does not. He created his exact image to do the work of creation. Christ is a created form of God, Phil 2.

None of us know it all yet Caino, learn new ideas that just might bring you some light.


Posted from the TOL App!

A duel nature being, he was not a human that at some point became divine, he was not a divine that became entirely human, he was both human and divine. He had already pleased God by the time of his voluntary, ceremonial baptism.

God was already forgiving, salvation was by faith as taught by Jesus long before the cross. Death is mans natural fate, It was the Fathers will for the Son to pass through all that man is called to do. "lay down his life for his sheep", not as a Pagan human sacrifice, an idea that was prevalent outside of Judaism and predates Jesus.

Bright Raven
August 20th, 2014, 02:13 PM
He is the SON OF GOD, not God. Why do you question HIS WORDS.


Posted from the TOL App!

Why do you question who he is when you know. Does He as the Son have the attributes and characteristics of His Father?

keypurr
August 20th, 2014, 02:17 PM
We do. ... There is One God...period.

Interesting to note that God's Word describes Jesus with the same attributes that only the one true God has.

Jesus is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. He is the Truth...He is the Life.



Jesus is called God...He is called Lord..He is the King of Kings.



We know who Jesus is by His work and His actions....things only God can do. Jesus can forgive sin. He is the judge. Jesus is the Creator, and He maintains it. Jesus raises the dead.



Only God can be worshipped and we see that angels worship Jesus...people worshipped Him. And...Jesus claims equality with the Father, and the Holy Spirit.



Yes as you stated...as God's Word states...there is One true God.


Jesus is not omnipotent, omnipresent or omniscient. He does not know when he will return, but his God knows.

Jesus is not called God. Now Jesus Christ is Lord made so by his God. Who? His God.

Kings in the OT were worshipped also.

Jesus NEVER claimed to be equal to his father. He said his Father is greater THAN ALL.

You listen to the wrong people friend.

Jesus Christ tells that his FATHER is the ONLY true God. Listen to your Lord, not your socila club.


Posted from the TOL App!

genuineoriginal
August 20th, 2014, 02:20 PM
How could you conclude that? Yes he is the Son, and our Lord and God who is an existential personification of the Father-I AM. In spirit they are indistinguishable to us.

Let me get this straight. (I hope)

You believe Jesus is the Son of God, but you don't know the difference between the Son of God and the Father?

genuineoriginal
August 20th, 2014, 02:23 PM
Jesus chose as his title "Son of Man" from the Book of Enoch.
Not all of us have the Book of Enoch in our Bible.
We do have the Book of Daniel.

Daniel 7:13
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
It appears Daniel saw the Son of man brought before the Ancient of days by the clouds of heaven.

keypurr
August 20th, 2014, 02:24 PM
Jesus chose as his title "Son of Man" from the Book of Enoch.









The Son of Man





Fragment of 1 Enoch (Scrolls of the Dead Sea).

Fragment of 1 Enoch (Scrolls of the Dead Sea) (©!!!)



And there I saw the One to Whom belongs the time before time, and His head was white like wool. With Him was another being, whose countenance had the appearance of a man, and his face was full of graciousness, like one of the holy angels. I asked the angel who went with me [...] concerning that son of and who he was, and whence he was, and why he went with the One to Whom belongs the time before time.



He answered and said to me: 'This is the son of man who has righteousness, with whom dwells righteousness, and who reveals all the treasures of that which is hidden, because the Lord of the spirits has chosen him, and whose lot has the pre-eminence before the Lord of the spirits in uprightness for ever. This son of man whom you have seen shall raise up the kings and the mighty from their seats and the strong from their thrones, and shall loosen the reins of the strong and break the teeth of the sinners.'



And at that hour that Son of Man was named in the presence of the Lord of the spirits, and his name before the the One to Whom belongs the time before time. Yes, before the sun and the signs were created, before the stars of the heaven were made, his name was named before the Lord of the spirits. He shall be a staff to the righteous whereon to stay themselves and not fall, and he shall be the light of the gentiles and the hope of those who are troubled of heart. All who dwell on earth shall fall down and worship before him, and will praise and bless and celebrate with song the Lord of the spirits. For this reason has he been chosen and hidden before Him, before the creation of the world and for ever more. The wisdom of the Lord of the spirits has revealed him to the holy and righteous; for he has preserved the lot of the righteous, because they have hated and despised this world of unrighteousness, and have hated all its works and ways in the name of the Lord of the spirits: for in his name they are saved, and according to his good pleasure has it been in regard to their life.





In these days downcast in countenance shall the kings of the earth have become, and the strong who possess the land because of the works of their hands, for on the day of their anguish and affliction they shall not be able to save themselves. And I will give them over into the hands of My elect: as straw in the fire so shall they burn before the face of the holy, as lead in the water shall they sink before the face of the righteous, and no trace of them shall any more be found.

And on the day of their affliction there shall be rest on the earth, and before them they shall fall and not rise again. There shall be no one to take them with his hands and raise them, for they have denied the Lord of the spirits and His Messiah. The name of the Lord of the spirits be blessed."



[1 Enoch 46.1-4;

1 Enoch 48.2-10]


Thank you, it kind of supports my thoughts.

Our God is the Lord of the spirits and his Messiah was spirit driven by the spiritual son of God, Christ.


Posted from the TOL App!

keypurr
August 20th, 2014, 02:25 PM
Not all of us have the Book of Enoch in our Bible.

We do have the Book of Daniel.


Daniel 7:13

13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.


Yep, the Son of Man went before his God.


Posted from the TOL App!

6days
August 20th, 2014, 02:54 PM
There is One God...period.

Interesting to note that God's Word describes Jesus with the same attributes that only the one true God has.*
Jesus is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. He is the Truth...He is the Life.

Jesus is called God...He is called Lord..He is the King of Kings.

We know who Jesus is by His work and His actions....things only God can do. Jesus can forgive sin. He is the judge. Jesus is the Creator, and He maintains it. Jesus raises the dead.

Only God can be worshipped and we see that angels worship Jesus...people worshipped Him. And...Jesus claims equality with the Father, and the Holy Spirit.*

Yes as you stated...as God's Word states...there is One true God.
Things only God can do and did do.

Ye men of Israel, hear these words, Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you as ye yourselves also know. (Acts 2:22)

Yes, God did the works through a man approved of God, the man Jesus Christ.

Give credit to whom credit is due. God works through men his wonders to perform.

Yes, of course we need give credit to God for everything. And the man Jesus, did give credit to "our Father". *But we also need consider the whole of scripture realizing the Jesus is our Creator. ..and will be our judge. Both OT & NT are consistent in letting us know who Jesus is.

"For a child is born to us, a son is given to us. The government will rest on his shoulders. And he will be called: Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

Isaiah 9:6

jamie
August 20th, 2014, 03:26 PM
Mighty God, Everlasting Father

Isaiah 9:6


The Hebrew el is a generic term which in this case obviously does not refer to the Most High. The term actually refers to a mighty one, any mighty one. Even angels are referred to as el (Psalm 29:1)

6days
August 20th, 2014, 04:42 PM
Jesus is not omnipotent

He has "all authority"...Matthew 28:18




(Jesus is not) omnipresent
"Where 2 or 3...I am there" Matt. 18:20


(Jesus is not)omniscient.
John 1:48-50 Jesus knew where Nathaniel was.



He does not know when he will return, but his God knows.
Quite correct...the son of man ...the human Jesus did not know. MATT 24:36



Jesus is not called God.
"Of the Son he says, "Thy throne oh God..."" Heb. 1:8

Or
" and the Word was God"

Jesus is also called 'Lord'. Matt. 22:43-45

Jesus is also called 'King of kings and Lord of lords'. Rev. 19:16




Now Jesus Christ is Lord made so by his God. Who? His God.
What verse says Jesus was made? Or that God appointed anyone other than the one true God as Lord?



Kings in the OT were worshipped also.
Some people today worship Buddah... or their car. But who alone is worthy to be worshipped.

Angels worship Jesus .."Let all the angels of God worship Him" Heb. 1:6
And...

"At the name of Jesus, every knee shall bow, of those who are in Heaven, and those on earth, and under the earth."
Phil. 2:10



Jeus NEVER claimed to be equal to his father.
John 14:23
John 10:30



He said his Father is greater THAN ALL.
Yes...as the Son of man, that makes perfect sense.



Jesus Christ tells that his FATHER is the ONLY true God.*
Yes...as the Son of man, that makes perfect sense. But also we need to see what Jesus says about who the Son of God is. We need look at the full context of all scripture including prophecy.

Ex. "A child is born to us, a son is given to us. The government will rest on his shoulders. And he will be called: Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." ISAIAH 9:6

Krsto
August 20th, 2014, 05:00 PM
That He is human but not divine. That is the problem

No, the problem is the assumption that deity implies a separate person of God as opposed to a separate human person having divine attributes given to him by God the Father.

Many of the non-trins on this board are not very good communicators. They will say they don't believe in the deity of Christ when in fact they do or they will say they don't believe "Jesus is God" when in fact they agree with the biblical definition of the Greek word used for God (theos) and the Hebrew word used for God (el) that happens to be translated as "God" with a capital G in any place it refers to Christ.

What non-trins do not agree with is how "Jesus is God" reads in English since the English word "God" does not allow for the biblical use of a human representative of God. That's why people on both sides of the debate read Jesus' statement saying "Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?" and don't know what to do with it. Trinitarians ignore that the word used there is the same theos used elsewhere and translated as "God" with a capital G. They bring up that that's a JW argument and if it's a JW argument it can't have any validity. They never look at the argument on its own merit and realize that theos can and is used for human representatives of God and so any verse that says Jesus is theos doesn't prove he is God in the English sense of the word. Non-trins on the other hand don't know how to set up the argument so it makes any sense and only time will tell if I'm guilty of the same :eek: :think:

Krsto
August 20th, 2014, 05:04 PM
Jesus is not called God.

And here's Exhibit A for someone with poor communication skills.

What's a trinitarian going to do every time he sees this? He's going to think of the 2 or 3 scriptures that say, "Jesus is God."

No explanation is ever given by so many on this board what is meant by the statement, "Jesus is not God."

We are all like ships passing in the night.

oatmeal
August 20th, 2014, 05:04 PM
Saved, or may be saved.
BigBoof1959, Bright Raven, Caino, Cruciform, ebenz47037, Nick M, OCTOBER23, Robert Pate, S0ZO, steko, tomlapalm, Totton Linnet

Not saved.
aikido7, jamie, keypurr, meshak, oatmeal, Omniskeptical, Pierac, Under Pressure

Thanks for your opinion.

God's word states otherwise.

Romans 10:9-10 gives us the two conditions to receive salvation.

I have met both, have you?

oatmeal
August 20th, 2014, 05:06 PM
Proposing a vote on this issue is stupid. The reality of "god" is not a popularity contest.

Good point, but we do have an idea of a count of who believes error and who believes the truth

Krsto
August 20th, 2014, 05:07 PM
Thanks for your opinion.

God's word states otherwise.

Romans 10:9-10 gives us the two conditions to receive salvation.

I have met both, have you?

Ktoyou is just giving God a break from the arduous task of having to make all these difficult judgments so that God can be freed up for more important work. She'll probably end up serving at his right hand for her meritorious service, don't you think?

Pierac
August 20th, 2014, 05:08 PM
Matthew 17:5 King James Version (KJV)

5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

A better perspective on your verse.... God's chosen one!

NASB Luke 9:35 Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!"

Who's chosen one? That's right God's chosen one... not God himself!!!

Isa 42:1 "Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations.

Moses was a Chosen one too....

Psa 106:23 Therefore He said that He would destroy them, Had not Moses His chosen one stood in the breach before Him, To turn away His wrath from destroying them.

Luk 23:35 And the people stood by, looking on. And even the rulers were sneering at Him, saying, "He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen One."

You have much to learn about Hebrew culture as you wander about scripture in your American view bermuda shorts wearing white socks and sandals with your dark scriptural blinding sunglasses.

If your God's chosen one.... then you can't be God! :think:

Jesus has a God and he tells you how important you know this fact!!! It's eternal life my friend!!!

Joh 17:3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

You better get a clue that you may know what Jesus was talking about in John 17:3. Your posting like a biblical tourist! Get rid of the socks!
:Poly::sherlock:
Paul

jamie
August 20th, 2014, 05:16 PM
Mighty God, Everlasting Father


Is Jesus your father? When Jesus said, "Our Father which art in heaven" are you thinking he was praying to himself as the mighty God?

The Hebrew el is a generic term which in this case obviously does not refer to the Most High. The term actually refers to a mighty one, any mighty one. Even angels are referred to as el (Psalm 29:1)

Krsto
August 20th, 2014, 05:29 PM
He has "all authority"...Matthew 28:18
Yes, delegated to him by the Father. That is not omnipotence.



"Where 2 or 3...I am there" Matt. 18:20
Ability to be many places at once isn't omnipresence and he can only do it because God gave him the ability to do it.


John 1:48-50 Jesus knew where Nathaniel was.
Many humans get a "word of knowledge" from God. That's not omniscience.


Quite correct...the son of man ...the human Jesus did not know. MATT 24:36 But you say the divine person did know? That is an ancient heresy called Nestorianism which makes Jesus two people, one human and one divine. You can't retreat into, "His human nature didn't know." Either the person of Christ knew or he didn't. If he didn't he wasn't omniscient.



"Of the Son he says, "Thy throne oh God..."" Heb. 1:8

Or
" and the Word was God"Both terms used for human representatives of God.



Jesus is also called 'Lord'. Matt. 22:43-45 God made him both Lord and Christ (Acts 2:36). IOW, his lordship was delegated to him by God the Father.



Jesus is also called 'King of kings and Lord of lords'. Rev. 19:16 Again, delegated authority, not omnipotence.




What verse says Jesus was made? Or that God appointed anyone other than the one true God as Lord? Acts 2:36. One true Gods aren't appointed by anybody, else they wouldn't be one true Gods, by definition.



Some people today worship Buddah... or their car. But who alone is worthy to be worshipped. God the Father and anyone he chooses to be worshipped.



Angels worship Jesus .."Let all the angels of God worship Him" Heb. 1:6
And... Amen.



"At the name of Jesus, every knee shall bow, of those who are in Heaven, and those on earth, and under the earth."
Phil. 2:10 Amen.



John 14:23
John 10:30 Jesus claiming to be able to do something the Father enables him to do is only equality in a certain sense and limited to what God allows. And yes, Jesus and the Father are one, but that has nothing to do with equality. Jesus prayed us believers would be one also, and his point was unity, not equality.



Yes...as the Son of man, that makes perfect sense. He said his Father is greater than him as a person, not "as the Son of Man." You make a false distinction.



Yes...as the Son of man, that makes perfect sense. But also we need to see what Jesus says about who the Son of God is. We need look at the full context of all scripture including prophecy.
Agreed.


Ex. "A child is born to us, a son is given to us. The government will rest on his shoulders. And he will be called: Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." ISAIAH 9:6 Sloppy exegesis. "Mighty God" is not the same as "Almighty God." Jesus is never called Almighty God. Not once. Isa. 9:6 does nothing for your case.

Pierac
August 20th, 2014, 05:35 PM
The creator Son, who is the Father of us and the Son of I AM, became a human and lived according to the will of his Father. He then returned to Heaven and is now our God.

Sorry my friend but Jesus is not God in heaven. He is still the man he was born and chosen to be!!!

Act 7:55 But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; Act 7:56 and he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."

Jesus was at the right hand of GOD... Note not considered as GOD!!!

Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

So... according to Paul and the rest of scripture.... Your mediator between you and God is a man named Jesus!!!:think:


I know... traditions of men die a hard death.
FYI... There is no creator Son in scripture just as you have a miss understanding of the term "Son of God." I suggest you do a Hebraic search on that term.

:Poly::sherlock:
Paul

keypurr
August 20th, 2014, 05:49 PM
Yes, of course we need give credit to God for everything. And the man Jesus, did give credit to "our Father". *But we also need consider the whole of scripture realizing the Jesus is our Creator. ..and will be our judge. Both OT & NT are consistent in letting us know who Jesus is.



"For a child is born to us, a son is given to us. The government will rest on his shoulders. And he will be called: Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."



Isaiah 9:6


It never really says that Jesus is the creator, Christ did the creating. Jesus was born to Mary into the world created by Christ. The biggest half truth is seeing Jesus as the son sent to us when it was really Christ, the spiritual son that God sent.

There is a lot of controversy in the verse Isaiah 9:6, some say a mighty warrior. I do not build my faith on any single verse.


Posted from the TOL App!

jamie
August 20th, 2014, 06:45 PM
There is a lot of controversy in the verse Isaiah 9:6, some say a mighty warrior. I do not build my faith on any single verse.


There should be no controversy. The mighty "God" simply refers to a mighty one, any mighty one, even angels.

Almighty God would be El Shaddai.

keypurr
August 20th, 2014, 07:00 PM
There should be no controversy. The mighty "God" simply refers to a mighty one, any mighty one, even angels.



Almighty God would be El Shaddai.


Some folks will lean on a verse like that rather than go on to seek truth.


Posted from the TOL App!

steko
August 20th, 2014, 07:39 PM
Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

David's son/descendant is the Branch.

The Lord Jesus is the Branch.

The Lord Jesus is the King.

The name by which the Lord Jesus shall be called is The LORD/YHVH OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

YHVH is one YHVH.

The Lord Jesus is YHVH/LORD Jesus our righteousness.


Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me

Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Isa 41:4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.
Joh 8:24 I[Jesus] said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Caino
August 20th, 2014, 07:53 PM
Where did Gabriel come from? Was he also a new creation or did he come down from heaven to announce the coming of the Son?

jamie
August 20th, 2014, 08:38 PM
The term LORD represents the Hebrew YHVH which means the self existing one. The Father is self existing and since the Father resurrected Jesus he too is self existing.

Everyone in the first resurrection will be self existing.

genuineoriginal
August 20th, 2014, 08:42 PM
He has "all authority"...Matthew 28:18
He is given all power.

Matthew 28:18
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Who gave Jesus all power?

Caino
August 20th, 2014, 08:51 PM
The term LORD represents the Hebrew YHVH which means the self existing one. The Father is self existing and since the Father resurrected Jesus he too is self existing.

Everyone in the first resurrection will be self existing.

That's dishonest, Jesus resurrected himself like he said. You are retelling the story in a different way.

Caino
August 20th, 2014, 08:52 PM
He is given all power.

Matthew 28:18
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Who gave Jesus all power?

The Father, now Jesus rules his own creation by rite.

keypurr
August 20th, 2014, 08:53 PM
That's dishonest, Jesus resurrected himself like he said. You are retelling the story in a different way.

Where did Jesus say he did in fact raise himself from the dead?

Caino
August 20th, 2014, 09:12 PM
Where did Jesus say he did in fact raise himself from the dead?

Jesus Cleanses the Temple

…18The Jews then said to Him, "What sign do You show us as your authority for doing these things?" 19Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." 20The Jews then said, "It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?"…

keypurr
August 20th, 2014, 10:20 PM
Jesus Cleanses the Temple

…18The Jews then said to Him, "What sign do You show us as your authority for doing these things?" 19Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." 20The Jews then said, "It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?"…

But there is no verse that says he did it.

oatmeal
August 21st, 2014, 04:11 AM
The term LORD represents the Hebrew YHVH which means the self existing one. The Father is self existing and since the Father resurrected Jesus he too is self existing.

Everyone in the first resurrection will be self existing.

I Peter 3:6

Abraham was called lord.

oatmeal
August 21st, 2014, 04:13 AM
That's dishonest, Jesus resurrected himself like he said. You are retelling the story in a different way.

I Thessalonians 4:16 "the dead in Christ shall rise first" does that mean the dead in Christ will "self-resurrect"?

Caino
August 21st, 2014, 04:47 AM
But there is no verse that says he did it.

Now you are challenging Jesus directly not me. And he did in fact resurrect from the dead, but you aren't alone, even the apostles doubted.

Why should he need to repeat himself after the resurrection to suit your unbelief?

Sometimes people overanalyze and overthink things. People had faith in Jesus, they trusted him without arguing with him constantly on every point.

"follow me"

Caino
August 21st, 2014, 05:27 AM
I Thessalonians 4:16 "the dead in Christ shall rise first" does that mean the dead in Christ will "self-resurrect"?

No, we aren't the Son of God, preexisting in heaven as eternal spiritual personalities. Jesus had that power, it was self existent within him already as God incarnate.




"For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18"No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father."

Besides, if Jesus didn't mean what he said, he could have easily said it the way you guys want him to say it and it would have still been a profound, miraculous statement.

he would have said....."tear down this temple and in three days my Father will raise it up."

genuineoriginal
August 21st, 2014, 05:51 AM
The Father, now Jesus rules his own creation by rite.
I see you didn't want to look at what the verse actually states.

Try again.

Jesus was given all power.

Someone gave Jesus all power.

Who did it?

genuineoriginal
August 21st, 2014, 05:53 AM
No, we aren't the Son of God, preexisting in heaven as eternal spiritual personalities. Jesus had that power, it was self existent within him already as God incarnate.




"For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18"No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father."

Besides, if Jesus didn't mean what he said, he could have easily said it the way you guys want him to say it and it would have still been a profound, miraculous statement.
I recommend you look at the verses you quoted again.
I highlighted some amazing things in them you seem to have missed.

Caino
August 21st, 2014, 06:30 AM
I see you didn't want to look at what the verse actually states.

Try again.

Jesus was given all power.

Someone gave Jesus all power.

Who did it?

The I AM is the source of all creation, he/it is the source of all existential spiritual beings.

The Son of God would be conscious of being ancestral to the I AM or his Father, yet they are eternal, outside of time.

The source of power and authority is the infinite, eternal I AM.

The Son who incarnate had only a theoretical beginning in eternity, finite man has a very real beginning in Time.

Dose that help?

jamie
August 21st, 2014, 06:35 AM
I Peter 3:6

Abraham was called lord.


You're confusing lord and LORD. They have different meanings.

Caino
August 21st, 2014, 06:36 AM
I recommend you look at the verses you quoted again.
I highlighted some amazing things in them you seem to have missed.

I suggest you look at the entire thing instead of clipping out what you want to see to the exclusion of that which refutes your argument.

The incarnate Son addresses his existential identity and relationship with the Father brilliantly in his words without someone in finite time needing to do a hack job on it.

genuineoriginal
August 21st, 2014, 06:45 AM
The I AM is the source of all creation, he/it is the source of all existential spiritual beings.

The Son of God would be conscious of being ancestral to the I AM or his Father, yet they are eternal, outside of time.

The source of power and authority is the infinite, eternal I AM.

The Son who incarnate had only a theoretical beginning in eternity, finite man has a very real beginning in Time.

Dose that help?
You are avoiding answering the question.

Try again.

Jesus said all power is given to Him.
If Jesus is the Almighty, who gave Jesus (the Almighty) all power?

jamie
August 21st, 2014, 06:46 AM
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (Romans 8:11)

genuineoriginal
August 21st, 2014, 06:54 AM
I suggest you look at the entire thing instead of clipping out what you want to see to the exclusion of that which refutes your argument.
I highlighted the parts I did because you were the one that was "clipping out what you want to see to the exclusion of that which refutes your argument."

Your argument has holes in it.

I understand that you are attempting to defend the classical Roman Catholic doctrine of Trinity.

The Bible never tells anyone to believe in the trinity.
It is as if the writers of the Bible had no concept of the trinity.

We are told in the Bible to believe in Jesus as the Son of God, we are not told to believe that Jesus is the Almighty.

Whether Jesus is the Almighty or not is actually meaningless as far as salvation and our faith is concerned.

With one exception: Those that teach that belief in the trinity (or denial of the trinity) is necessary for salvation will enter into condemnation as false teachers.

Caino
August 21st, 2014, 06:59 AM
You are avoiding answering the question.

Try again.

Jesus said all power is given to Him.
If Jesus is the Almighty, who gave Jesus (the Almighty) all power?

I did answer it, God the Father gave the Son his power in a theoretical point in eternity.

"I am in the Father and the Father is in me"


You are attempting to segregate the oneness of the Father and Son in order to make him purely human, to have a finite beginning in time.

meshak
August 21st, 2014, 07:02 AM
Do you guys really care if you call Jesus is God instead His Father is God?

Nope, if you don't honor and strive to obey His teachings, He will tell you "I don't know you".

Jesus cherishes His followers godly fruit. That's how He told us to discern who is true believers or not, by our fruit, works. That's how we will be judged according to what we have done, not by what we claim. He does not approve of lip servers.

I have thread about reality of "Jesus is God" Christian community. take a look.

Caino
August 21st, 2014, 07:02 AM
I highlighted the parts I did because you were the one that was "clipping out what you want to see to the exclusion of that which refutes your argument."

Your argument has holes in it.

I understand that you are attempting to defend the classical Roman Catholic doctrine of Trinity.

The Bible never tells anyone to believe in the trinity.
It is as if the writers of the Bible had no concept of the trinity.

We are told in the Bible to believe in Jesus as the Son of God, we are not told to believe that Jesus is the Almighty.

Whether Jesus is the Almighty or not is actually meaningless as far as salvation and our faith is concerned.

With one exception: Those that teach that belief in the trinity (or denial of the trinity) is necessary for salvation will enter into condemnation as false teachers.

You have preconceived notions about me, I'm not defending the RCC's doctrine, only the identity and office of Jesus Christ.

Never did Jesus make understanding a Trinity part of salvation, salvation is by faith.

Caino
August 21st, 2014, 07:06 AM
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (Romans 8:11)

This is a common diversion, ignore the direct words of Jesus in its totality, go off and find an extrapolation from a correspondence which appears to contradict Jesus for your own purposes. Letters, btw, which made no claim of divine authorship but were made divine by the same RCC church that you battle with. :AMR:

keypurr
August 21st, 2014, 07:22 AM
Now you are challenging Jesus directly not me. And he did in fact resurrect from the dead, but you aren't alone, even the apostles doubted.



Why should he need to repeat himself after the resurrection to suit your unbelief?



Sometimes people overanalyze and overthink things. People had faith in Jesus, they trusted him without arguing with him constantly on every point.



"follow me"


If Jesus did in fact raise himself it would have been recorded. But it is not.

You can not assume anything in scriptures. I know he said he could, but he didn't.

Because of the distortion of truth by the churches one needs to prove all things. Like Thomas, I need more than the half truths that the church supplies. However my faith that Christ is the son of God is stronger than most.


Posted from the TOL App!

genuineoriginal
August 21st, 2014, 07:43 AM
I did answer it, God the Father gave the Son his power in a theoretical point in eternity.

Don't confuse theoretical with actual or your argument devolves into saying that your theoretical God the Father gave your theoretical Son power in an actual point in time.
The truth is that the Almighty, who Jesus called Our Father, gave His only begotten Son all power over all things in heaven and earth, with the sole exception being that the Son was not given power over the Father.
As it is written:

1 Corinthians 15:27-28
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.



"I am in the Father and the Father is in me"


You are attempting to segregate the oneness of the Father and Son in order to make him purely human, to have a finite beginning in time.
You are attempting to segregate the oneness of Jesus and His followers in order to make the words you quote say something they don't say.

1 Corinthians 1:30
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Caino
August 21st, 2014, 08:18 AM
If Jesus did in fact raise himself it would have been recorded. But it is not.

You can not assume anything in scriptures. I know he said he could, but he didn't.

Because of the distortion of truth by the churches one needs to prove all things. Like Thomas, I need more than the half truths that the church supplies. However my faith that Christ is the son of God is stronger than most.


Posted from the TOL App!

Holy cow!!!! " I know he said he could, but he didn't. "

You've now gone off the rails! Like Thomas????? Thomas, "my Lord and my God"

Maybe one day you will in fact be like Thomas the doubter who finally gets it. :idea:

Now I see your ego is getting the best of you. Stop taking yourself so seriously, get out a little, get some fresh air.

Caino
August 21st, 2014, 08:23 AM
Don't confuse theoretical with actual or your argument devolves into saying that your theoretical God the Father gave your theoretical Son power in an actual point in time.
The truth is that the Almighty, who Jesus called Our Father, gave His only begotten Son all power over all things in heaven and earth, with the sole exception being that the Son was not given power over the Father.
As it is written:

1 Corinthians 15:27-28
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.



You are attempting to segregate the oneness of Jesus and His followers in order to make the words you quote say something they don't say.

1 Corinthians 1:30
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

John made the same philosophical concession that I did in his beautiful opening prose,

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind."

The Son is the Father of his own creation, his Father is the Triune personification of the I AM. They are indistinguishably linked in divinity.

jamie
August 21st, 2014, 08:49 AM
Holy cow!!!!


Only in Hinduism.

jamie
August 21st, 2014, 08:57 AM
This is a common diversion, ignore the direct words of Jesus in its totality, go off and find an extrapolation from a correspondence which appears to contradict Jesus for your own purposes.


I don't believe the Bible contradicts itself, and in this case you are reading more into what Jesus said than what is really there.

Jesus' teachings were for the Jews, Paul's teachings are for the church of God.

I'm not claiming Paul's teachings are for you, obviously they are not.

keypurr
August 21st, 2014, 10:02 AM
Holy cow!!!! " I know he said he could, but he didn't. "



You've now gone off the rails! Like Thomas????? Thomas, "my Lord and my God"



Maybe one day you will in fact be like Thomas the doubter who finally gets it. :idea:



Now I see your ego is getting the best of you. Stop taking yourself so seriously, get out a little, get some fresh air.


Nothing to do with ego, just facts. You fail to show facts to satisfy my thirst for truth.
If you wish to follow blindly like most feel free to do so. I assume nothing.


Posted from the TOL App!

Caino
August 21st, 2014, 10:05 AM
I don't believe the Bible contradicts itself, and in this case you are reading more into what Jesus said than what is really there.

Jesus' teachings were for the Jews, Paul's teachings are for the church of God.

I'm not claiming Paul's teachings are for you, obviously they are not.

The RCC's Bible contradicts itself plenty, but that's a different discussion. Jesus taught a gospel that was to be carried to the 4 corners of the earth, not the 4 corners of Israel.

We can rely on his own words about himself to have insight into the Father revealed on earth in the Son.

Caino
August 21st, 2014, 10:13 AM
Only in Hinduism.

:)

Caino
August 21st, 2014, 10:23 AM
Nothing to do with ego, just facts. You fail to show facts to satisfy my thirst for truth.
If you wish to follow blindly like most feel free to do so. I assume nothing.


Posted from the TOL App!

I have provided facts but you are being intellectually dishonest.



* Jesus said he had the power to lay his life down and to take it up again.

* Jesus point blanks tells the Jews to kill him (tear down this temple, his body) and he will raise it up again. He does resurrect from the dead and would later ask the apostles why they seem surprised.

You finally concede Jesus said he would (but you say could) raise himself from the dead to prove his authority to teach as he did, he does in fact resurrect from the dead, but you claim the technicality that Jesus didn't actually redress his statement again. That's just pig headed self deception based on human pride, nothing less!

People wonder how the Jews could still be so blind, you are a good example of that.

JosephR
August 21st, 2014, 11:16 AM
Holy cow!!!! " I know he said he could, but he didn't. "

You've now gone off the rails! Like Thomas????? Thomas, "my Lord and my God"

Maybe one day you will in fact be like Thomas the doubter who finally gets it. :idea:

Now I see your ego is getting the best of you. Stop taking yourself so seriously, get out a little, get some fresh air.


He called Jesus El Gibbor,, El is where you get God from and gibbor means mighty.. He did not say the tetragramatron, YhWh.


Now why did Thomas call Him that? ahh becasue Isiah called Him that first.
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Of coarse you can ask any Jew if the Messiah is God.. and get your answer.

Caino
August 21st, 2014, 11:21 AM
He called Jesus El Gibbor,, El is where you get God from and gibbor means mighty.. He did not say the tetragramatron, YhWh.


Now why did Thomas call Him that? ahh becasue Isiah called Him that first.
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Of coarse you can ask any Jew if the Messiah is God.. and get your answer.

:rotfl: The Jews don't have a good track record when it comes to identifying the Son.

JosephR
August 21st, 2014, 11:32 AM
:rotfl: The Jews don't have a good track record when it comes to identifying the Son.

maybe so, but since they wrote the scriptures that you are butchering, there input might be needed to sort things out.
not really you in particular, but the translation.
Maybe Jesus is God, He certainly does not appear to be the Messiah the Jews prophesied about.

jamie
August 21st, 2014, 11:41 AM
We can rely on his own words about himself to have insight into the Father revealed on earth in the Son.


Jesus was sent to the people of Israel and in reading what he said we shouldn't ignore the cultural context of what he said. Neither should we ignore the cultural context of the NT writers.

The NT teaches that Jesus died. The OT teaches that the dead know nothing.

Jesus spoke in parables to the Jews but explained his parables to his disciples. Matthew said, "All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables, and without a parable spake he not unto them."

Paul explained the parable of Jesus' death. You seem to have gotten hung up on the parable itself.

genuineoriginal
August 21st, 2014, 12:17 PM
The Son is the Father of his own creation, his Father is the Triune personification of the I AM. They are indistinguishably linked in divinity.
You admit that you are unable to understand the difference between Jesus and the Almighty.

That is okay, being unable to understand the difference won't result in forfeiting your salvation.

genuineoriginal
August 21st, 2014, 12:25 PM
The RCC's Bible contradicts itself plenty, but that's a different discussion. Jesus taught a gospel that was to be carried to the 4 corners of the earth, not the 4 corners of Israel.
You seem to misunderstand the meaning of the Hebrew word אֶרֶץ ('erets) and its Greek counterpart οἰκουμένη (oikoumenē).

Both words mean land and are typically used for the land occupied by a country.

The gospel of Jesus was to be carried into the four corners of the land of Israel until the time allotted to the children of Israel in the seventy "weeks" prophecy was concluded, 3-1/2 years after the crucifixion.

After that time, the gospel was sent into all the nations of the Gentiles.

Caino
August 21st, 2014, 12:42 PM
maybe so, but since they wrote the scriptures that you are butchering, there input might be needed to sort things out.
not really you in particular, but the translation.
Maybe Jesus is God, He certainly does not appear to be the Messiah the Jews prophesied about.

Your getting warmer......

JosephR
August 21st, 2014, 12:51 PM
Your getting warmer......


I am pretty sure what you mean, I have studied the gospel of Thomas and other books that lead down that road as well, hermetic tradition as well.


Posted from the TOL App!

Caino
August 21st, 2014, 12:55 PM
Jesus was sent to the people of Israel and in reading what he said we shouldn't ignore the cultural context of what he said. Neither should we ignore the cultural context of the NT writers.

The NT teaches that Jesus died. The OT teaches that the dead know nothing.

Jesus spoke in parables to the Jews but explained his parables to his disciples. Matthew said, "All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables, and without a parable spake he not unto them."

Paul explained the parable of Jesus' death. You seem to have gotten hung up on the parable itself.

Yes, Jesus taught publically in parables but he also spoke directly to the authorities who confronted him in a language that they understood.

Jesus didn't always explain everything to the apostles......"Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going"....." Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”.....“Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me?


The human body that the Son took on died, the Son then resurrected a new form. You forgot again and left that unpleasant counterpoint out.

The dead humans that have not translated do indeed sleep, "they know nothing" but not so with God incarnate, he never dies just like he said.

Caino
August 21st, 2014, 01:00 PM
You seem to misunderstand the meaning of the Hebrew word אֶרֶץ ('erets) and its Greek counterpart οἰκουμένη (oikoumenē).

Both words mean land and are typically used for the land occupied by a country.

The gospel of Jesus was to be carried into the four corners of the land of Israel until the time allotted to the children of Israel in the seventy "weeks" prophecy was concluded, 3-1/2 years after the crucifixion.

After that time, the gospel was sent into all the nations of the Gentiles.

Geeeze! The mental gymnastics???? "Kanaph", 4 corners of the earth, whole world silly.

genuineoriginal
August 21st, 2014, 01:06 PM
Geeeze! The mental gymnastics???? "Kanaph", 4 corners of the earth, whole world silly.

In the Bible, earth usually means a country, but your mind has been conditioned by our culture to translate the word to mean all the inhabited land on the planet.

Caino
August 21st, 2014, 01:31 PM
In the Bible, earth usually means a country, but your mind has been conditioned by our culture to translate the word to mean all the inhabited land on the planet.

Well, among some of the Jews that may have been the case, they developed a nationalistic ego trip which is reflected in their books about themselves. To them you were a Gentile dog! The prophets (which were often treated badly by the Zionist types) spoke more Liberally. But not so with the religion of Jesus, ALL men and women on earth are the children of God.

In fact when we look at Israel today, some things haven't changed.

Cruciform
August 21st, 2014, 02:31 PM
The RCC's Bible contradicts itself plenty...
Post your proof. For example...?

Caino
August 21st, 2014, 02:38 PM
Post your proof. For example...?


They ban me when I show the errors in the Bible, they say it's blasphemy.

jamie
August 21st, 2014, 02:38 PM
The human body that the Son took on died, the Son then resurrected a new form.


Jesus died and his spirit returned to the Father who gave it the same as any other human. Jesus would still be dead today if the Father had not resurrected him per their agreement.

Jesus' Savior is my Savior.

Cruciform
August 21st, 2014, 02:52 PM
They ban me when I show the errors in the Bible, they say it's blasphemy.
They wouldn't ban you for showing supposed "errors" in the Catholic Bible, since, as Protestants, they don't accept it as God's word anyway. So go ahead and post your proof. For example...?

genuineoriginal
August 21st, 2014, 04:21 PM
Well, among some of the Jews that may have been the case, they developed a nationalistic ego trip which is reflected in their books about themselves. To them you were a Gentile dog! The prophets (which were often treated badly by the Zionist types) spoke more Liberally. But not so with the religion of Jesus, ALL men and women on earth are the children of God.

Matthew 15:21-26
21 Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
Jesus did not come for the Gentiles before the crucifixion, though He did aid a few Gentiles that were in the land of Israel.

The change in the Gospel to include the Gentiles happened 3-1/2 years after the crucifixion when the time allotted to the children of Israel ran out.

God's Truth
August 21st, 2014, 04:24 PM
They ban me when I show the errors in the Bible, they say it's blasphemy.

You being banned does not prove you are speaking truth, it only proves that they can ban you for any reason they want.

God's Truth
August 21st, 2014, 04:29 PM
Jesus died and his spirit returned to the Father who gave it the same as any other human. Jesus would still be dead today if the Father had not resurrected him per their agreement.

Jesus' Savior is my Savior.

Is Jesus your Savior?

Jesus is the Savior.


Titus 2:13 King James Bible
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

oatmeal
August 21st, 2014, 04:47 PM
No, we aren't the Son of God, preexisting in heaven as eternal spiritual personalities. Jesus had that power, it was self existent within him already as God incarnate.




"For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18"No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father."

Besides, if Jesus didn't mean what he said, he could have easily said it the way you guys want him to say it and it would have still been a profound, miraculous statement.

he would have said....."tear down this temple and in three days my Father will raise it up."

He received the commandment from his Father. When we receive commandments from God, God knows we are capable of carrying out those commandments, for He has enabled us.

There are over 20 scriptures that indicate that God raised Jesus from the dead.

Not that God raised himself from the dead, nor that Jesus raised himself from the dead.

Jesus Christ willingly let himself be tortured and crucified, because he believed and obeyed God to do so.

He did not torture and crucify himself.

Likewise, Jesus, by willfully submitting to God to pay the price for our sins, believed that God would raise him up.

He willfully submitted to God.

If Jesus statement is literally true about him raising himself from the dead and if that makes him God,

then "the dead in Christ shall rise first" we then must likewise be God

Do you really want to go there?

oatmeal
August 21st, 2014, 04:48 PM
You're confusing lord and LORD. They have different meanings.

I am sorry, I didn't tell you that the word lord used for God and Jesus Christ and Abraham is the same Greek word?

No, wonder you are so confused.

When you see all the uses of kurios, lord, then you will see

Caino
August 21st, 2014, 05:04 PM
Jesus died and his spirit returned to the Father who gave it the same as any other human. Jesus would still be dead today if the Father had not resurrected him per their agreement.

Jesus' Savior is my Savior.

That's fine to believe as you do, but Jesus said he would resurrect himself after three days. He did just that.

Caino
August 21st, 2014, 05:15 PM
Matthew 15:21-26
21 Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
Jesus did not come for the Gentiles before the crucifixion, though He did aid a few Gentiles that were in the land of Israel.

The change in the Gospel to include the Gentiles happened 3-1/2 years after the crucifixion when the time allotted to the children of Israel ran out.



The Great Commission

16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

jamie
August 21st, 2014, 05:29 PM
That's fine to believe as you do, but Jesus said he would resurrect himself after three days. He did just that.


Are you suggesting that Jesus was conscious the whole time he was in the tomb?

What do you suppose was the reason Paul said that God resurrected Jesus?

tomlapalm
August 21st, 2014, 05:31 PM
you will continue to exit while absent from your dead body, don't you believe this?

keypurr
August 21st, 2014, 05:44 PM
I have provided facts but you are being intellectually dishonest.



* Jesus said he had the power to lay his life down and to take it up again.

* Jesus point blanks tells the Jews to kill him (tear down this temple, his body) and he will raise it up again. He does resurrect from the dead and would later ask the apostles why they seem surprised.

You finally concede Jesus said he would (but you say could) raise himself from the dead to prove his authority to teach as he did, he does in fact resurrect from the dead, but you claim the technicality that Jesus didn't actually redress his statement again. That's just pig headed self deception based on human pride, nothing less!

People wonder how the Jews could still be so blind, you are a good example of that.

I knew what he said, but he did not do it.

Show me where Jesus raised himself if you can.
If he raised himself who in their right mind would think he died? I would not be a believer if he was able to do that. You just do not think things out.

oatmeal
August 21st, 2014, 05:54 PM
1 John 5:5
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Those that believe Jesus is God cannot overcome the world


Jesus is God?

No

Jesus is the son of God

tomlapalm
August 21st, 2014, 06:26 PM
Jesus was the Son of God, He is also God, the Son. He is also just God. We can't clearly see Jesus as God without seeing Jesus the man. If we need to see Jesus as God we need to look before the body was on earth.

God is Jesus, is more clearly shown in this verse

Zec 12:10

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

We can also look unto the time when salvation and thus the savior of man will be finished in Rev

Rev 22:5
And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 21:23
And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

One source of Light.

Rev 22:1
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

One Throne.

One God

jamie
August 21st, 2014, 06:34 PM
Zec 12:10

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.


What is the word for me in the Hebrew?

Caino
August 21st, 2014, 07:20 PM
Are you suggesting that Jesus was conscious the whole time he was in the tomb?

What do you suppose was the reason Paul said that God resurrected Jesus?


We don't know where the Son was during the time of the tomb, perhaps out conducting universe business?


I assume that Paul assumes that you are families with the story, of what Jesus already said about raising himself from the dead. Considering that Jesus is God Paul would be right.

Another example would be where Paul talks about the "translation of Enoch, but then groups him in with "these all died." He takes for granted that the reader is being honest.


Hebrews 11

5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.”[a] For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
=
=
=


13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth.

The author assumes you just read that Enoch was translated, that he didn't die. But then god says these all died.

In your technique you are picking the second characterization but ignoring the first.

oatmeal
August 21st, 2014, 07:25 PM
Jesus was the Son of God, He is also God, the Son. He is also just God. We can't clearly see Jesus as God without seeing Jesus the man. If we need to see Jesus as God we need to look before the body was on earth.

God is Jesus, is more clearly shown in this verse

Zec 12:10

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

We can also look unto the time when salvation and thus the savior of man will be finished in Rev

Rev 22:5
And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 21:23
And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

One source of Light.

Rev 22:1
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

One Throne.

One God

God the Son?

Where in scripture is Jesus ever called "God the Son"?

answer: nowhere

Why is Jesus called the son of God about 50 times in scripture, but not once is he called God the Son?

Because Jesus is not God the Son

Jesus is the son of God

Caino
August 21st, 2014, 07:26 PM
I knew what he said, but he did not do it.

Show me where Jesus raised himself if you can.
If he raised himself who in their right mind would think he died? I would not be a believer if he was able to do that. You just do not think things out.

The apostles were just as surprised as you are. They didn't seem to believe it either, they saw him die. It wasn't until hind site that they recalled what he had said to the Jews when they pressed him on his authority, asking him for a "sign".

Who in there right mind could believe the miracles either?

glorydaz
August 21st, 2014, 07:37 PM
God the Son?

Where in scripture is Jesus ever called "God the Son"?

answer: nowhere

Why is Jesus called the son of God about 50 times in scripture, but not once is he called God the Son?

Because Jesus is not God the Son

Jesus is the son of God

It's still a mystery to you, is it? :nono:


1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

jamie
August 21st, 2014, 08:24 PM
We don't know where the Son was during the time of the tomb, perhaps out conducting universe business?


Enough said, I'm not into science fiction.

Squeaky
August 21st, 2014, 08:29 PM
You need to remember that according to scripture the majority is always wrong. The many.
Its the few who are always right. The few. The majority is the wolf.

Matt 7:13-15
13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
14 "Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.
(NKJ)

steko
August 21st, 2014, 08:59 PM
What is the word for me in the Hebrew?

את
'êth
ayth
"Apparently contracted from H226 in the demonstrative sense of entity; properly self (but generally used to point out more definitely the object of a verb or preposition, even or namely)"-Strongs

glorydaz
August 21st, 2014, 09:09 PM
I knew what he said, but he did not do it.


Show me where Jesus raised himself if you can.
If he raised himself who in their right mind would think he died? I would not be a believer if he was able to do that. You just do not think things out.

Oh, so you wouldn't believe that with God all things are possible, is that it? What kind of a God wouldn't be able to come in the flesh, and then raise that very body He made for Himself from the dead? Instead of believing what Jesus said He would do, you prefer to think God is not able to perform what He has promised. That's called unbelief.

You sure ain't no Abraham, are ya, Keypurr? :nono:


Romans 4:20
He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

You speak out of your unbelief.


John 10:17-18
Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Pierac
August 21st, 2014, 09:13 PM
That's dishonest, Jesus resurrected himself like he said. You are retelling the story in a different way.

I think not... It was His God... whom He claims to have... that raised Him!!! :think:

The Bible states that after his sermon on the day of Pentecost about 3000 persons were saved... When preaching to these Jews Peter presents a Messiah who is the descendent of King David (v.30). He is one who would have rotted and decayed in the grave like any other man had not God raised him up again (v.24-32). Because God authenticated "this Jesus" by resurrecting him (thus reversing the national verdict accusing him of blasphemy, that is, claiming to be God's Messiah), Jesus is now "exulted to the right hand of God" (v. 33). God has thus sealed "this Jesus whom you crucified" (v.36) and declared him as "Lord and Messiah" to the nation of Israel and "for all who are far off" (the Gentiles as well, v.39). The proof of his Messiahship is that the Holy Spirit has been poured out. Every Jew believed that the dawning of the new Messianic age would usher in a mighty outpouring of God Spirit. This Jewish audience knew that Peter statements meant that the God of their fathers, Jehovah, had raise Jesus in fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecies concerning the Christ. Their understanding that "Jesus is Lord" was governed by their understanding of the messianic fulfillment of Psalms 110 as Peter quotes it in Acts here.

No unitary monotheistic Jew would have taken Peter statements in Acts 2 to mean that Messiah was Jehovah God. It must be interpreted with Hebrew eyes this same pattern is followed throughout Acts.

In the next chapter, Peter calls Jesus anything but the Lord God. Jesus is called God’s "servant" twice (Acts 3:13, 26); God's "Christ" (v. 18:20); "the Prince of life" (a title nowhere in the Bible applied to God, v.15); the "prophets" whom Moses predicted (v.22,23). In fact, Peter is very careful not to confuse the identity of the Lord God and this Jesus who is the Lord Messiah. Note verse 13 where Peter says, "The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers as glorified his servant Jesus, the one whom you delivered up, and disowned in the presence of pilate, when he had decided to release him." This same expression "The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" appears in Exodus 3:15 where God tells Moses to announce to the people that "The LORD [YHWH], they got of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, has sent me to you" (Ex 3:15). The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob equals the LORD (Jehovah). Here in Acts 3:13 it is "The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers" who has now "glorified his servant Jesus."

Is Jesus then the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers? Absolutely not! This would make complete nonsense of the text. The God of Abraham glorified who? Himself? No: His servant Jesus. Jesus is not the God of Abraham. Jesus is not Jehovah, the LORD. He is God anointed one, God's servant.

Act 2:24 "But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.

Act 10:40 "God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible,

Act 13:29 "When they had carried out all that was written concerning Him, they took Him down from the cross and laid Him in a tomb. "But God raised Him from the dead;

No scripture ever teaches that Jesus raised Himself! :think:

You should ignore the behind the forum private communications from Trinitarians telling you to avoid communicating with me. If I'm so wrong then you should easily make me eat your lunch! ;)

:Poly::sherlock:
Paul

Pierac
August 21st, 2014, 09:29 PM
The term LORD represents the Hebrew YHVH which means the self existing one. The Father is self existing and since the Father resurrected Jesus he too is self existing.

Everyone in the first resurrection will be self existing.

You speak as a Child!!!

The Bible makes a careful distinction between God and man. God is the Lord God (Adonai), or when his personal name is used, Yahweh, and Jesus is his unique, sinless, virginally conceived human son (adoni, my lord, Luke 1:43; 2:11). Adonai is found 449 times in the Old Testament and distinguishes the One God from all others. Adonai is not the word describing the son of God, Jesus, and Psalms 110:1. adoni appears 195 times and refers only to a human (or occasionally an angelic) lord, that is, someone who is not God. This should cut through a lot of complicated post Biblical argumentation and create a making which in subtle ways that secures the simple and most basic Biblical truth, that God is a single person and that the Messiah is the second Adam, "the Man Messiah" (1 Tim. 2:5).

Let's have a look at a few Old Testament verses that show us the clear distinction alluded to here. In Genesis 15:2, Abraham prays to God and says, "O LORD, God [Adonai Yahweh], what will you give me, since I am childless?" In another prayer Abraham's servant addresses God: "O LORD, God of my lord Abraham, please grant me success today" (Gen. 24:12). The second word for "my lord" here is adoni which according to any standard Hebrew lexicon means "Lord," "Master," or "owner." Another example is found in David's speech to his men after he had cut off the hem of King Saul's robe and his conscience bothered him: "So he said to his men, far be it from me because of the Lord [here the word is Yahweh, Lord God] that I should do this thing to my lord [adoni].”

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, page 157. states… "The form Adoni (‘my lord’), a royal title (Sam. 29:8), is to be carefully distinguished from the divine title Adonai (‘Lord’) used of Yahweh. Adonai the special plural form [the divine title] distinguishes it from adoni [with short vowel] = ‘my lords.’”

Hastings Dictionary of the Bible, vol. 3, page 137. States… “lord in the Old Testament is used to translate Adonai when applied to the Divine Being. The [Hebrew] word… has a suffix [with a special pointing] presumably for the sake of distinction... between divine and human appellative.” Wigram,
The Englishman’s Hebrew and Chaldee Concordance of the Old Testament, p. 22. states…
“The form ‘to my lord,’ I’adoni, is never used in the Old Testament as a divine reference… the general excepted fact is that the masoretic pointing distinguishes divine reference (adonai) from human references (adoni).”

“The Hebrew Adonai exclusively denotes the God of Israel. It is attested about 450 times in the Old Testament…Adoni [is] addressed to human beings (Gen 44:7; Num 32:25; 2 Kings 2:19, etc.). We have to assume that the word Adonai received it’s special form to distinguish it from the secular use of adon [i.e. adoni]. The reason why [God is addressed] as Adonai [with long vowel] instead of the normal adon, adoni or adonai [short vowel] may have been to distinguish Yahweh from other gods and from other human Lord's.” from Dictionary of deities and demons in the Bible, p. 531.

Occasionally, it will be objected that this distinction between Adonai and adoni was a late addition to the Hebrew text by the Mesorites around 600 to 700 AD and therefore is not reliable. This objection needs to be considered in the light of the fact that the Hebrew translators of the Septuagint (the LXX) around 250 B.C. recognize and carefully maintained this Hebrew distinction in their work. They never translated the second “lord” of Psalm 110:1 (“my lord,” kyrios mou) to mean the Deity. The first LORD of Psalm 110:1 (the LORD, Ho Kyrios) they always reserve for the one God, Jehovah.

Your welcome jamie,
:Poly::sherlock:
Paul

keypurr
August 21st, 2014, 10:43 PM
The apostles were just as surprised as you are. They didn't seem to believe it either, they saw him die. It wasn't until hind site that they recalled what he had said to the Jews when they pressed him on his authority, asking him for a "sign".

Who in there right mind could believe the miracles either?

Stop beating around the bush and show me the verse that says Jesus raised himself. If you can not do that then it is proof that you are assuming, adding words to scripture.

If he could do that then he really did not die and our faith moot.

keypurr
August 21st, 2014, 10:46 PM
It's still a mystery to you, is it? :nono:


1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

I don't think you understand that verse friend.

manifest = to make known.

It does not mean God came down to earth to visit us.

He sent his son, when are you going to see that.

Krsto
August 21st, 2014, 10:53 PM
I did answer it, God the Father gave the Son his power in a theoretical point in eternity. Theological gobledegook.


"I am in the Father and the Father is in me" Looks like we have different interpretations as to just what that means.



You are attempting to segregate the oneness of the Father and Son in order to make him purely human, to have a finite beginning in time. No need to do that since they are one as a divine being and a human being. There is nothing in his statements about oneness that demands or even implies that he is an eternal being. Please keep in mind Jesus prayed that us Christians would be one "even as you (Father) and I are one". What does that tell you about the kind of oneness Jesus spoke of just a few verses away in John?

keypurr
August 21st, 2014, 10:57 PM
Oh, so you wouldn't believe that with God all things are possible, is that it? What kind of a God wouldn't be able to come in the flesh, and then raise that very body He made for Himself from the dead? Instead of believing what Jesus said He would do, you prefer to think God is not able to perform what He has promised. That's called unbelief.

I did not say he could not do it, I said he did not do it.


You sure ain't no Abraham, are ya, Keypurr? :nono:


Romans 4:20
He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

You speak out of your unbelief.

Not really, I just prove all things and not blindly let a church tell me what to think. Your just a puppet of tradition.



John 10:17-18
Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Now using your wisdom show me where he raised himself from the dead. This verse does not say that he did that.

I wonder how many here hang up their stocking on Christmas eve.
I did when I was a kid, now I am grown up and I think for myself.

keypurr
August 21st, 2014, 11:01 PM
I think not... It was His God... whom He claims to have... that raised Him!!! :think:

The Bible states that after his sermon on the day of Pentecost about 3000 persons were saved... When preaching to these Jews Peter presents a Messiah who is the descendent of King David (v.30). He is one who would have rotted and decayed in the grave like any other man had not God raised him up again (v.24-32). Because God authenticated "this Jesus" by resurrecting him (thus reversing the national verdict accusing him of blasphemy, that is, claiming to be God's Messiah), Jesus is now "exulted to the right hand of God" (v. 33). God has thus sealed "this Jesus whom you crucified" (v.36) and declared him as "Lord and Messiah" to the nation of Israel and "for all who are far off" (the Gentiles as well, v.39). The proof of his Messiahship is that the Holy Spirit has been poured out. Every Jew believed that the dawning of the new Messianic age would usher in a mighty outpouring of God Spirit. This Jewish audience knew that Peter statements meant that the God of their fathers, Jehovah, had raise Jesus in fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecies concerning the Christ. Their understanding that "Jesus is Lord" was governed by their understanding of the messianic fulfillment of Psalms 110 as Peter quotes it in Acts here.

No unitary monotheistic Jew would have taken Peter statements in Acts 2 to mean that Messiah was Jehovah God. It must be interpreted with Hebrew eyes this same pattern is followed throughout Acts.

In the next chapter, Peter calls Jesus anything but the Lord God. Jesus is called God’s "servant" twice (Acts 3:13, 26); God's "Christ" (v. 18:20); "the Prince of life" (a title nowhere in the Bible applied to God, v.15); the "prophets" whom Moses predicted (v.22,23). In fact, Peter is very careful not to confuse the identity of the Lord God and this Jesus who is the Lord Messiah. Note verse 13 where Peter says, "The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers as glorified his servant Jesus, the one whom you delivered up, and disowned in the presence of pilate, when he had decided to release him." This same expression "The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" appears in Exodus 3:15 where God tells Moses to announce to the people that "The LORD [YHWH], they got of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, has sent me to you" (Ex 3:15). The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob equals the LORD (Jehovah). Here in Acts 3:13 it is "The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers" who has now "glorified his servant Jesus."

Is Jesus then the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers? Absolutely not! This would make complete nonsense of the text. The God of Abraham glorified who? Himself? No: His servant Jesus. Jesus is not the God of Abraham. Jesus is not Jehovah, the LORD. He is God anointed one, God's servant.

Act 2:24 "But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.

Act 10:40 "God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible,

Act 13:29 "When they had carried out all that was written concerning Him, they took Him down from the cross and laid Him in a tomb. "But God raised Him from the dead;

No scripture ever teaches that Jesus raised Himself! :think:

You should ignore the behind the forum private communications from Trinitarians telling you to avoid communicating with me. If I'm so wrong then you should easily make me eat your lunch! ;)

:Poly::sherlock:
Paul

Excellent post Paul but their minds is not open to truth.

Krsto
August 21st, 2014, 11:01 PM
No scripture ever teaches that Jesus raised Himself! :think:



John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

Not that this validates trinitarian theology. It just demonstrates Jesus was given the authority (as a disembodied soul, one would think) to raise his body and re-unite his soul with his risen body.

Krsto
August 21st, 2014, 11:19 PM
Geeeze! The mental gymnastics???? "Kanaph", 4 corners of the earth, whole world silly.

FYI Paul said in Romans that the message had been preached in all the "world".

Rom. 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Caino
August 22nd, 2014, 05:18 AM
Stop beating around the bush and show me the verse that says Jesus raised himself. If you can not do that then it is proof that you are assuming, adding words to scripture.

If he could do that then he really did not die and our faith moot.



Your deceitful assertion that Jesus effectively wondered about making meaningless claims that he never carried out puts the burden of proof on you that he didn't follow through with his directive "tear down this temple (his body) and in three days I will raise it up again."

Jesus did in fact return from the dead as he said he would, you are now the fool who wants to deny him because you can't or wont understand plural manifestation.


"When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted"

Caino
August 22nd, 2014, 05:38 AM
I think not... It was His God... whom He claims to have... that raised Him!!! :think:

The Bible states that after his sermon on the day of Pentecost about 3000 persons were saved... When preaching to these Jews Peter presents a Messiah who is the descendent of King David (v.30). He is one who would have rotted and decayed in the grave like any other man had not God raised him up again (v.24-32). Because God authenticated "this Jesus" by resurrecting him (thus reversing the national verdict accusing him of blasphemy, that is, claiming to be God's Messiah), Jesus is now "exulted to the right hand of God" (v. 33). God has thus sealed "this Jesus whom you crucified" (v.36) and declared him as "Lord and Messiah" to the nation of Israel and "for all who are far off" (the Gentiles as well, v.39). The proof of his Messiahship is that the Holy Spirit has been poured out. Every Jew believed that the dawning of the new Messianic age would usher in a mighty outpouring of God Spirit. This Jewish audience knew that Peter statements meant that the God of their fathers, Jehovah, had raise Jesus in fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecies concerning the Christ. Their understanding that "Jesus is Lord" was governed by their understanding of the messianic fulfillment of Psalms 110 as Peter quotes it in Acts here.

No unitary monotheistic Jew would have taken Peter statements in Acts 2 to mean that Messiah was Jehovah God. It must be interpreted with Hebrew eyes this same pattern is followed throughout Acts.

In the next chapter, Peter calls Jesus anything but the Lord God. Jesus is called God’s "servant" twice (Acts 3:13, 26); God's "Christ" (v. 18:20); "the Prince of life" (a title nowhere in the Bible applied to God, v.15); the "prophets" whom Moses predicted (v.22,23). In fact, Peter is very careful not to confuse the identity of the Lord God and this Jesus who is the Lord Messiah. Note verse 13 where Peter says, "The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers as glorified his servant Jesus, the one whom you delivered up, and disowned in the presence of pilate, when he had decided to release him." This same expression "The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" appears in Exodus 3:15 where God tells Moses to announce to the people that "The LORD [YHWH], they got of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, has sent me to you" (Ex 3:15). The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob equals the LORD (Jehovah). Here in Acts 3:13 it is "The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers" who has now "glorified his servant Jesus."

Is Jesus then the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers? Absolutely not! This would make complete nonsense of the text. The God of Abraham glorified who? Himself? No: His servant Jesus. Jesus is not the God of Abraham. Jesus is not Jehovah, the LORD. He is God anointed one, God's servant.

Act 2:24 "But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.

Act 10:40 "God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible,

Act 13:29 "When they had carried out all that was written concerning Him, they took Him down from the cross and laid Him in a tomb. "But God raised Him from the dead;

No scripture ever teaches that Jesus raised Himself! :think:

You should ignore the behind the forum private communications from Trinitarians telling you to avoid communicating with me. If I'm so wrong then you should easily make me eat your lunch! ;)

:Poly::sherlock:
Paul

I've never had anyone help me with the obvious, Arius's people are the low hanging fruit. Like fish in a barrel, they throw out the good water in their anti-Catholicism.

The Word raised Jesus because Jesus is the Word, he is a personification of the Father.

He was the living Word personified before the incarnation, he was the living Word personified during the human life of Jesus, he was the living Word while the body of Jesus lay in the tomb, he was the living Word in the resurrected form of Jesus, he is the living Word now on high and even here among us now as we discus this.

NOTE: Anti-Jesus is God people don't quote Jesus, they go to secondary characterizations which appear to support their arguments, but to say God raised Jesus from the dead is synonymous with Jesus raising up his body after being dead for three days.


Here, it's like sunlight on vampires:



The Jews then said to Him, "What sign do You show us as your authority for doing these things?" Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."

He would again address this self existent power and authority as God incarnate in man:





"For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. "No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father."

Under Pressure
August 22nd, 2014, 06:37 AM
Trinitarians are :kookoo:.

jamie
August 22nd, 2014, 07:08 AM
את
'êth
ayth
"Apparently contracted from H226 in the demonstrative sense of entity; properly self (but generally used to point out more definitely the object of a verb or preposition, even or namely)"-Strongs

Thanks, and the word 'êth is not found in Zechariah 12:10.

The word "me" was supplied by the translators and is not inspired. The translators should have said him.

They shall look upon him whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, and shall be in bitterness for him.

jamie
August 22nd, 2014, 07:16 AM
John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.



Then said Jesus unto them, "When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he and that I do nothing of myself, but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things." (John 8:28)

Jesus spoke for the Father who raised him from the dead. Jesus did nothing of himself.

No human has ever raised himself from the dead or we would have no cemetaries.

Krsto
August 22nd, 2014, 07:42 AM
Then said Jesus unto them, "When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he and that I do nothing of myself, but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things." (John 8:28)

Jesus spoke for the Father who raised him from the dead. Jesus did nothing of himself.

No human has ever raised himself from the dead or we would have no cemetaries.

"I do nothing of myself" doesn't mean he didn't do anything. It means he didn't have intrinsic powers to do miracles or know what to teach without God first giving him the ability. Jesus raised himself from the dead and it wasn't done of himself. He got the power from God. Since the power came from the Father then the Father can also say that he raised Christ's body, and it was done through the soul of Christ.

Doesn't this make sense to you?

We must harmonize all that the scriptures say about it, not pit scriptures against scriptures.

Caino
August 22nd, 2014, 07:58 AM
Trinitarians are :kookoo:.

That's what the Jewish scripture worshipers said about Jesus, they rejected him for the same sort of reason, they could not think outside the box of their own making. While traces of plural deity remain in the scripture fetish, by the times of the enmass redactions of the OT in Babylon, plural manifestation of the I AM had practically been eradicated. Jesus chose 12 common place men who would be open minded enough to receive his new revelation of truth. It was the old guard that battled him.

keypurr
August 22nd, 2014, 08:17 AM
Your deceitful assertion that Jesus effectively wondered about making meaningless claims that he never carried out puts the burden of proof on you that he didn't follow through with his directive "tear down this temple (his body) and in three days I will raise it up again."



Jesus did in fact return from the dead as he said he would, you are now the fool who wants to deny him because you can't or wont understand plural manifestation.




"When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted"


We agree Jesus was raised from the dead, the issue is WHO raised him.

God raised him, you have been shown that. Jesus was DEAD. The dead know nothing. Their thoughts perish. Jesus could not raise himself if he was truly dead. This is proof that God raised him just as scripture tells us. Believe in the Bible as it is written. Do not confine yourself to any one translation. The translators at times inserted their own thoughts. It is you who make the claim that he raised himself and it is you who needs to prove that claim. You said it, you prove it.


Posted from the TOL App!

keypurr
August 22nd, 2014, 08:20 AM
I've never had anyone help me with the obvious, Arius's people are the low hanging fruit. Like fish in a barrel, they throw out the good water in their anti-Catholicism.



The Word raised Jesus because Jesus is the Word, he is a personification of the Father.



He was the living Word personified before the incarnation, he was the living Word personified during the human life of Jesus, he was the living Word while the body of Jesus lay in the tomb, he was the living Word in the resurrected form of Jesus, he is the living Word now on high and even here among us now as we discus this.



NOTE: Anti-Jesus is God people don't quote Jesus, they go to secondary characterizations which appear to support their arguments, but to say God raised Jesus from the dead is synonymous with Jesus raising up his body after being dead for three days.





Here, it's like sunlight on vampires:





The Jews then said to Him, "What sign do You show us as your authority for doing these things?" Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."



He would again address this self existent power and authority as God incarnate in man:









"For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. "No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father."


You have been quoted the words of Jesus and you turn your back to them.
John 17:3. Start there to build your faith.


Posted from the TOL App!

Under Pressure
August 22nd, 2014, 08:25 AM
That's what the Jewish scripture worshipers said about Jesus, they rejected him for the same sort of reason, they could not think outside the box of their own making.By "thinking outside the box" you mean "making it up as you go;" right?


While traces of plural deity remain in the scripture fetish, by the times of the enmass redactions of the OT in Babylon, plural manifestation of the I AM had practically been eradicated.Yeah, right :rolleyes:.


Jesus chose 12 common place men who would be open minded enough to receive his new revelation of truth. It was the old guard that battled him.Yet, not once is Jesus EVER recorded claiming to be (a/the) "god;" curiouser and curiouser.

Caino
August 22nd, 2014, 08:30 AM
By "thinking outside the box" you mean "making it up as you go;" right?

Yeah, right :rolleyes:.

Yet, not once is Jesus EVER recorded claiming to be (a/the) "god;" curiouser and curiouser.

No, the Jews have had 2,000 years to reveiew the record, they still reject him. And the Jews who heard Jesus thought he compared himself to God even if you remain clueless.

Caino
August 22nd, 2014, 08:42 AM
You have been quoted the words of Jesus and you turn your back to them.
John 17:3. Start there to build your faith.


Posted from the TOL App!

You deny Jesus had the power to take up his life again, that he did take up his life. Your adversarial spirit is clouding your judgment.

jamie
August 22nd, 2014, 08:49 AM
Since the power came from the Father then the Father can also say that he raised Christ's body, and it was done through the soul of Christ.


Soul of Christ?

After God imparted life to Jesus by returning his spirit to him then he once again became a soul.

Under Pressure
August 22nd, 2014, 08:52 AM
No, the Jews have had 2,000 years to reveiew the record, they still reject him.Was Jesus EVER the king of the Jews except by the declaration of trinitarians?


And the Jews who heard Jesus thought he compared himself to GodBeing compared to "god" isn't the same thing as BEING "god;" now is it?


even if you remain clueless.Why do you find it necessary to attempt to insult me? I've noticed that there is a trend among trinitarians to insult when their assertions are rejected.

jamie
August 22nd, 2014, 08:55 AM
"I do nothing of myself" doesn't mean he didn't do anything.


Are you saying it was not the Father who did the works including the work of resurrection? Or did Jesus do everything by his own power and authority bypassing the Father?

Do humans save themselves from death or does each human including Jesus need a Savior?

Letsargue
August 22nd, 2014, 08:55 AM
You have been quoted the words of Jesus and you turn your back to them.
John 17:3. Start there to build your faith.


Posted from the TOL App!


Yes, and you have JUST Denied the Whole (( God Head, AND - BODY ))!!!!

(( Mark 15:37 KJV )) -- 37- "And Jesus cried with a loud voice, (( AND )) gave up the (( Ghost ))!!! --//-----

Now you Blind what ever "YOU" Call Yourself!!!!! ?? - Who did Jesus GIVE UP When He (( DIED ))??? -- It sure wasn't "YOU"!!! - IT Was (((( Either Himself, or the Father )))) who Was IN Jesus!!! - Who ever IT Was, - was the ONE Who Raised Him!! -- However!! - It Was Jesus' own (( "SPIRIT" / "SPIRIT" / "SPIRIT" )) with Form, that (( Raised "His OWN" FLESH ))!!!!!!!!
**
I Had to do that!!!! --- NOW I AM -- ((( "BACK" )))!!!!

What a bunch of FOOLS!!!!

Paul, David -- 082214

keypurr
August 22nd, 2014, 09:12 AM
You deny Jesus had the power to take up his life again, that he did take up his life. Youradversarial spirit is clouding your judgment.


Your skirting the issue to hide your failure to back up your words.

There is NO VERSE that tells us that Jesus raised himself. There are verses that tell us that GOD raised him from the dead. To assume that he raised himself is to deceive yourself.
Christ had the fullness of his father but he is still a creation and is not equal to his creator. He only does what the Father wants. The Father raised Christ from the dead. Christ had a lot of power GIVEN to him, but God needed to raise him so people could believe that we can all be raised. You do not seem to understand the state of the dead or you would see my point.


Posted from the TOL App!

keypurr
August 22nd, 2014, 09:18 AM
Yes, and you have JUST Denied the Whole (( God Head, AND - BODY ))!!!!



(( Mark 15:37 KJV )) -- 37- "And Jesus cried with a loud voice, (( AND )) gave up the (( Ghost ))!!! --//-----



Now you Blind what ever "YOU" Call Yourself!!!!! ?? - Who did Jesus GIVE UP When He (( DIED ))??? -- It sure wasn't "YOU"!!! - IT Was (((( Either Himself, or the Father )))) who Was IN Jesus!!! - Who ever IT Was, - was the ONE Who Raised Him!! -- However!! - It Was Jesus' own (( "SPIRIT" / "SPIRIT" / "SPIRIT" )) with Form, that (( Raised "His OWN" FLESH ))!!!!!!!!

**

I Had to do that!!!! --- NOW I AM -- ((( "BACK" )))!!!!



What a bunch of FOOLS!!!!



Paul, David -- 082214


You deny the words of your Lord. There is only one true God, his Father. Deal with it.


Posted from the TOL App!

Grosnick Marowbe
August 22nd, 2014, 10:04 AM
Was Jesus EVER the king of the Jews except by the declaration of trinitarians?

Being compared to "god" isn't the same thing as BEING "god;" now is it?

Why do you find it necessary to attempt to insult me? I've noticed that there is a trend among trinitarians to insult when their assertions are rejected.

You're beginning to sound like Meshak! You best have that checked into,
before it spreads, and becomes a life long malady!

Pierac
August 22nd, 2014, 10:40 AM
John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

Not that this validates trinitarian theology. It just demonstrates Jesus was given the authority (as a disembodied soul, one would think) to raise his body and re-unite his soul with his risen body.

So... Jesus makes a comment that if you... Destroy a temple and he can raise it in 3 days somehow means He actually raised himself after he was dead for 3 days. :think:

You ignore so much scripture to actually believe that tradition of men...

Act 2:24 "But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.

Act 10:40 "God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible,

Act 13:29 "When they had carried out all that was written concerning Him, they took Him down from the cross and laid Him in a tomb. "But God raised Him from the dead;

I'll tell you why... Jesus was not speaking for himself but for His GOD!

Pay attention....

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

(John 8:40) "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.

NASB Joh 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.

Joh 12:49 "For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.


Now get ready for scripture that proves these biblical facts that I'm showing you above... Jesus NEVER preformed a single Miracle in His life!!! Scriptures teaches all is from GOD... It was His God working through HIM!!!!
Read the Truth.... and vomit out your traditions of men!!! :rolleyes:



Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know--



Yep... "just as you yourselves know" but you don't know do you... and thus can not explain why Jesus has a GOD! Not just a Father but a GOD!!!

Paul tell us in 1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through (dia) whom we exist.

Always God the Father is the source and origin of all works, deeds and salvation which come to us through the mediatorship of his son. From Him comes all to us through our Lord Jesus Christ so that to God the Father made all the praise be directed. The Father is the sole origin and Creator of "all things." In contrast, Jesus is the Father's commissioned Lord Messiah through whom God's plan for the world is coming to completion.

You better listen to Jesus... Read John 17 from start to finish.

John 17:3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

If you think Jesus is the only true God who sent, anointed and raised Himself... then you have no fear of missing the knowledge of eternal life Jesus was speaking about in John 17:3

You can follow what other teach and preach or read the word for yourself like scripture teaches. Jesus is not going to care about what men or religious denomination you followed.:think:
:Poly::sherlock:
Paul

Letsargue
August 22nd, 2014, 10:44 AM
You deny the words of your Lord. There is only one true God, his Father. Deal with it.


Posted from the TOL App!




The ( "TRUTH" Temple ), was ( Made, or FORMRED of the Word ) of GOD. -- That Temple was called ( "JESUS" ); the Same as our flesh is the Temple of Who Jesus WAS!!!--- You blind Ignoring of God; what ever you CALL Yourself!!!

WHO said: --- "IF you have SEEN ME, You have SEEN the Father"??? - (((( Right there IT IS!!! )))) - You blind stubborn Old man that doesn't care if he's wrong or not!!!!!

Christ GAVE ME /// US the Same;> (( If you have Seen -- "ME", You have seen MY Father ))!! -- Just Read IT!!! --- "MY" Father's Temple is made from the Word of Christ /// GOD, And that -- ( I AM )!!

Lord! leave this AS IT IS for this one rejecting You and YOUR Word!!! - I "WILL" - SEE Him SOON!!

((( I AM ( DONE ) Here for a While )))!!! You blind whatever you call yourselves Can just Stay where I HAVE PUT YOU!!!!!

Paul, David -- 082214

Caino
August 22nd, 2014, 10:45 AM
Your skirting the issue to hide your failure to back up your words.

There is NO VERSE that tells us that Jesus raised himself. There are verses that tell us that GOD raised him from the dead. To assume that he raised himself is to deceive yourself.
Christ had the fullness of his father but he is still a creation and is not equal to his creator. He only does what the Father wants. The Father raised Christ from the dead. Christ had a lot of power GIVEN to him, but God needed to raise him so people could believe that we can all be raised. You do not seem to understand the state of the dead or you would see my point.


Posted from the TOL App!

Jesus Christ said that he would and he did. There is no scripture that says Jesus was wrong, that he did not raise himself from the dead. Your adversarial spirit denies Jesus did what he said he was going to do.

Caino
August 22nd, 2014, 10:48 AM
So... Jesus makes a comment that if you... Destroy a temple and he can raise it in 3 days somehow means He actually raised himself after he was dead for 3 days. :think:

You ignore so much scripture to actually believe that tradition of men...

Act 2:24 "But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.

Act 10:40 "God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible,

Act 13:29 "When they had carried out all that was written concerning Him, they took Him down from the cross and laid Him in a tomb. "But God raised Him from the dead;

I'll tell you why... Jesus was not speaking for himself but for His GOD!

Pay attention....

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

(John 8:40) "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.

NASB Joh 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.

Joh 12:49 "For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.


Now get ready for scripture that proves these biblical facts that I'm showing you above... Jesus NEVER preformed a single Miracle in His life!!! Scriptures teaches all is from GOD... It was His God working through HIM!!!!
Read the Truth.... and vomit out your traditions of men!!! :rolleyes:



Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know--



Yep... "just as you yourselves know" but you don't know do you... and thus can not explain why Jesus has a GOD! Not just a Father but a GOD!!!

Paul tell us in 1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through (dia) whom we exist.

Always God the Father is the source and origin of all works, deeds and salvation which come to us through the mediatorship of his son. From Him comes all to us through our Lord Jesus Christ so that to God the Father made all the praise be directed. The Father is the sole origin and Creator of "all things." In contrast, Jesus is the Father's commissioned Lord Messiah through whom God's plan for the world is coming to completion.

You better listen to Jesus... Read John 17 from start to finish.

John 17:3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

If you think Jesus is the only true God who sent, anointed and raised Himself... then you have no fear of missing the knowledge of eternal life Jesus was speaking about in John 17:3

You can follow what other teach and preach or read the word for yourself like scripture teaches. Jesus is not going to care about what men or religious denomination you followed.:think:
:Poly::sherlock:
Paul

Duel nature, God and man, he speaks from both natures at diffent times. Those who realize the divinity of Christ read the whole story, no need to chery pick to discredit the words of Jesus.

Under Pressure
August 22nd, 2014, 10:55 AM
Duel nature, God and man, he speaks from both natures at different times.:confused:


Those who realize the divinity of Christ read the whole story, no need to chery pick to discredit the words of Jesus.That's funny.

genuineoriginal
August 22nd, 2014, 11:00 AM
Jesus Christ said that he would and he did. There is no scripture that says Jesus was wrong, that he did not raise himself from the dead. Your adversarial spirit denies Jesus did what he said he was going to do.

You have one verse that has been translated as saying that Jesus would raise up his body by Himself with only His own power.

However, all the rest of the verses say that God raised Jesus up from the dead and that Jesus did nothing with His own power.

Are you so desparate to believe one verse that you will rip out the other verses from your Bible?

genuineoriginal
August 22nd, 2014, 11:02 AM
Duel nature, God and man, he speaks from both natures at diffent times.
You are claiming that Jesus was double-minded?

James 1:8
8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Under Pressure
August 22nd, 2014, 11:07 AM
You have one verse that has been translated as saying that Jesus would raise up his body by Himself with only His own power.The implication is that because Jesus had been given the power of life from "god" he could "raise" himself from the dead.


However, all the rest of the verses say that God raised Jesus up from the dead and that Jesus did nothing with His own power.This is a HUGE stumbling block for trinitarians. Their solution is to ignore the greater part of the Bible that don't fit their theology.


Are you so desperate to believe one verse that you will rip out the other verses from your Bible?Hey, why not?

Caino
August 22nd, 2014, 11:16 AM
You have one verse that has been translated as saying that Jesus would raise up his body by Himself with only His own power.

However, all the rest of the verses say that God raised Jesus up from the dead and that Jesus did nothing with His own power.

Are you so desparate to believe one verse that you will rip out the other verses from your Bible?

Jesus and God are the same thing, with that in mind reread all the NT.

Caino
August 22nd, 2014, 11:17 AM
You are claiming that Jesus was double-minded?

James 1:8
8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Duel nature, human and divine in one person.

Under Pressure
August 22nd, 2014, 11:21 AM
Duel nature, human and divine in one person.That's just stupid. The NT nowhere explicitly or implicitly supports such nonsense.

Caino
August 22nd, 2014, 11:36 AM
The implication is that because Jesus had been given the power of life from "god" he could "raise" himself from the dead.

This is a HUGE stumbling block for trinitarians. Their solution is to ignore the greater part of the Bible that don't fit their theology.

Hey, why not?

The Jews suffered from the same stumbling block as the anti Jesus is God crowd. According to your arguments, had you heard Jesus back then you would have rejected him on the same grounds that you reject him now. Or at least his divinity.

Caino
August 22nd, 2014, 11:40 AM
That's just stupid. The NT nowhere explicitly or implicitly supports such nonsense.

Billions of others diciples of Jesus disagree with you. Maybe it's your problem?

Under Pressure
August 22nd, 2014, 11:43 AM
The Jews suffered from the same stumbling block as the anti Jesus is God crowd.The "anti Jesus is 'god' crowd" aren't the ones with the problem.


According to your arguments, had you heard Jesus back then you would have rejected him on the same grounds that you reject him now.And what would be the reason I reject the "man god" hypothesis?


Or at least his divinity.The NT neither explicitly or implicitly supports the notion that Jesus was divine. In fact, it often goes out of its way to say that Jesus IS NOT "god."

Caino
August 22nd, 2014, 11:43 AM
To follow the arguments of the Arius people, Jesus misspoke a lot and mislead many.

Under Pressure
August 22nd, 2014, 11:47 AM
Billions of others diciples of Jesus disagree with you.:rotfl:

So, because it is popular (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum) it MUST be true? Nonsense.


Maybe it's your problem?Or maybe it's yours? :idunno:

Letsargue
August 22nd, 2014, 11:48 AM
You are claiming that Jesus was double-minded?

James 1:8
8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.


(( You Blind - what ever you call yourself!!! ))

NO!!!!! --- Jesus Was Not Double Minded!!! -- Jesus was the first to BE (( Triple Minded )); - FOR A Reason, and that Reason is because of FOOL who are ( JUST Double minded ) like You ALL!!

Spirit, Carnal, ( AND the Combined of those Two ; "Triple Minded"; "Trinity Mind of GOD" ), to install the Whole TRUTH, In Spite of all the FOOLS Like yourself!!!

MAN!!!, How do you keep rejecting WHO Christ (( IS ))???

Paul, David -- 082214

jamie
August 22nd, 2014, 11:52 AM
The NT neither explicitly or implicitly supports the notion that Jesus was divine.


But he was a partaker of the divine nature the same as we are.


Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. (2 Peter 1:4)

Letsargue
August 22nd, 2014, 11:55 AM
But he was a partaker of the divine nature the same as we are.


Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. (2 Peter 1:4)


OPOOOHHHH BOYYYY!! -- I AM - REALLY - Going to INJOY Our meeting after YOUR END Of your World!!!

Paul, David -- 082214

Caino
August 22nd, 2014, 12:12 PM
:rotfl:

So, because it is popular (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum) it MUST be true? Nonsense.

Or maybe it's yours? :idunno:

Yes, nonsense is what the religious "experts" said to Jesus. The adversaries have Jesus as a temporary God man floating out in space for a time. The epitome of nonsense.

Under Pressure
August 22nd, 2014, 12:24 PM
Yes, nonsense is what the religious "experts" said to Jesus.About what?

You really need to read "John's gospel" closer. Have you ever noticed that the people in it NEVER seem to understand what Jesus is saying?


The adversaries have Jesus as a temporary God man floating out in space for a time.Jesus was never "god." Not even temporarily.

Letsargue
August 22nd, 2014, 12:39 PM
About what?

You really need to read "John's gospel" closer. Have you ever noticed that the people in it NEVER seem to understand what Jesus is saying?

Jesus was never "god." Not even temporarily.


((( Romans 3:10-13 KJV )))
Now!!!,,, Genius ~of your ~god SATAN, -- Prove that YOU are not ONE of those!!!

Paul, David -- 082214

Under Pressure
August 22nd, 2014, 12:42 PM
((( Romans 3:10-13 KJV )))
Now!!!,,, Genius ~of your ~god SATAN, -- Prove that YOU are not ONE of those!!!:think:

Do you understand you because I don't.

genuineoriginal
August 22nd, 2014, 12:48 PM
Jesus and God are the same thing, with that in mind reread all the NT.
You define what Jesus has to be in order for you to accept Him before reading the Bible to see what the Bible actually says about Him?

You do realize that is the worst possible way of reading the Bible, right?

genuineoriginal
August 22nd, 2014, 12:54 PM
To follow the arguments of the Arius people, Jesus misspoke a lot and mislead many.
Your misunderstanding of what Jesus said, combined with your refusal to accept all the many places where Jesus said something that doesn't fit your idea of what He should have said instead of what He actually said, does not add up to Jesus being the one that misspoke, but it does add up to you trying to mislead many.

genuineoriginal
August 22nd, 2014, 12:56 PM
NO!!!!! --- Jesus Was Not Double Minded!!!
Of course Jesus was not double minded.
Jesus was the most single minded person ever, as shown by His obedience to God unto death on the cross.


Jesus was the first to BE (( Triple Minded ));
:shocked:

Letsargue
August 22nd, 2014, 01:02 PM
Of course Jesus was not double minded.
Jesus was the most single minded person ever, as shown by His obedience to God unto death on the cross.


:shocked:




OF Course you are too Blind to SEE IT!!!

Christ "must" be All minded to Judge any of you fools; - Not JUST those who are "single minded"!!! - Just because one is "Single Minded", doesn't mean that that foolish MIND is With Christ!!! Christ knows all the teachings of FOOLS!!!!

Paul, David -- 082214

genuineoriginal
August 22nd, 2014, 01:34 PM
Just because one is "Single Minded", doesn't mean that that foolish MIND is With Christ!!!
No, you can be single-minded in your stupidity.

We are called to be single minded in our obedience, like Christ Jesus was.

Colossians 3:22
22 Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God;

Philippians 2:5-8
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Caino
August 22nd, 2014, 01:34 PM
About what?

You really need to read "John's gospel" closer. Have you ever noticed that the people in it NEVER seem to understand what Jesus is saying?

Jesus was never "god." Not even temporarily.

"All power and authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."

Caino
August 22nd, 2014, 01:36 PM
You define what Jesus has to be in order for you to accept Him before reading the Bible to see what the Bible actually says about Him?

You do realize that is the worst possible way of reading the Bible, right?

I have faith in Christ, I believe what he said.

genuineoriginal
August 22nd, 2014, 01:40 PM
I have faith in Christ, I believe what he said.
What makes you think you believe what Jesus said when you ignore 95% of what He said because it doesn't agree with your preconceived ideas about Him?


Matthew 10:32-33
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Letsargue
August 22nd, 2014, 01:40 PM
Stop beating around the bush and show me the verse that says Jesus raised himself. If you can not do that then it is proof that you are assuming, adding words to scripture.

If he could do that then he really did not die and our faith moot.


((( John 11:25 KJV ))) -- 25- "Jesus said unto her, (( I AM the ( Resurrection ) , and the life: he that believeth in me, ( though he were dead ), yet shall he live". --//-----

Paul, David -- 082214

genuineoriginal
August 22nd, 2014, 01:43 PM
"All power and authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."


Matthew 9:6-8
6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
7 And he arose, and departed to his house.
8 But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.

aikido7
August 22nd, 2014, 01:54 PM
"I and my Father are One."
"The Father is greater than I."

Both of these are from the Gospel According to John.

Its schizophrenic slant has more to do with the author of the gospel than it does the actual historical figure of Jesus. Jesus "walked his talk" and was amazingly clear in his communication. If Jesus showed any hypocrisy, he would have never been declared as Lord, Son of God, Messiah, Prince of Peace, etc. by his first followers.

Personally, I use this rule as a standard to separate the actual godliness of Jesus from the propositional theological statements put into his mouth by the early church. Jesus did not deal in theological statements, dogmatic pronouncements and the like. He taught the Kingdom of God in parables. And since Caesar was also--literally-- called God, Lord, Savior of the World, etc. these titles applied to Jesus shows that he (Jesus) displayed a clear affront to the powers and principalities of the conventional world.

The "powers that be" were seen by first-century Jews as a real challenge to a God that actually rules the world. "Kingdom of God" was all about what the world would be like if God sat on the throne instead of Caesar.

...And that was an act of high treason in the Roman Empire.

Caino
August 22nd, 2014, 01:55 PM
What makes you think you believe what Jesus said when you ignore 95% of what He said because it doesn't agree with your preconceived ideas about Him?


Matthew 10:32-33
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

I don't ignore, I consider ALL that he said, it's you who throw out what you don't like. Jesus personifies the Father as creator of this world.

Caino
August 22nd, 2014, 01:57 PM
Matthew 9:6-8
6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
7 And he arose, and departed to his house.
8 But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.


btw, Jesus told his apostles not to reveal his identity until he returned to heaven.

Letsargue
August 22nd, 2014, 02:03 PM
Matthew 9:6-8
6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
7 And he arose, and departed to his house.
8 But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.


((( 1 Corinthians 15:24 KJV ))) 24- "Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; (( when He shall have ( put down ) all rule and all authority and power ))". --//-----

He gave it all to the Church, the Body of Christ // US!!!
You have NONE!! -- Now the Body of Christ // WE, -- Have All Rule, Authority, and Power, Over the ( Spiritual )!!!

God Just says the Truth, and you JUST LIE!!!

Paul, David -- 082214

glorydaz
August 22nd, 2014, 02:14 PM
I don't think you understand that verse friend.

manifest = to make known.

It does not mean God came down to earth to visit us.

He sent his son, when are you going to see that.

He said, "I came out from God", and "I came down from heaven". Yet, you don't believe Him....


John 16:27 KJV
For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

John 6:38 KJV
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

"Blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." John 20:29 KJV


1 John 1:1-2 KJV
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

John 1:1-4
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

It's so sad you can't see, but even those who walked with Him struggled with unbelief....like the Jews who fell backwards when He told them He was the great I AM. But, Isaiah knew.....


Isaiah 40:3
The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

genuineoriginal
August 22nd, 2014, 02:21 PM
I don't ignore, I consider ALL that he said
That is obviously not the truth, based on what is shown in your posts.


Jesus personifies the Father as creator of this world.
I could say the same thing, but I suspect we are using different definitions of the word, "personifies."

1Mind1Spirit
August 22nd, 2014, 02:22 PM
btw, Jesus told his apostles not to reveal his identity until he returned to heaven.

You mean this identity as revealed by Peter, after Christ had ascended?

Acts 2:36 KJV
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified , both Lord and Christ.