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chrysostom
August 13th, 2014, 04:08 AM
the two witnesses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_witnesses)

just search the bible for two olive trees
and
you will find zechariah 4 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Zechariah+4&version=KJV) and zerubbabel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zerubbabel) who is always associated with joshua (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_the_High_Priest)

joshua is a priest representing the church
zerubbabel is minister of the state

the two witnesses are the church and state
we have two christian empires

the holy roman empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire)
and
the byzantine empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire)

the place is jerusalem
and
control of it ended in 1244 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_%281244%29)

it looks like the holy roman empire to me

back to
the apocalypse (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102616)

northwye
August 13th, 2014, 05:47 AM
There is usually a clue in end time prophecy that is written in the language of metaphor showing that a particular text is metaphoric, which is almost always true in the Book of Revelation.

Saying the Two Witnesses are Moses and Elijah, as individuals, or two groups of people, like the Church and Israel, etc is not metaphoric; it is still literal.

Here is a verse in Revelation 11 that is a clue: "And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." Revelation 11: 7-8

The beast that comes out of the bottomless pit is in Revelation 9: 1-2, 11, the angel of the bottomless pit, Abaddon or Apollyon. This angel is a fallen angel, a spirit being, who inspires the human false prophets. But as a spirit being he does not literally run around killing people. This is the clue that Revelation 11 is written in metaphoric language, and is not to be taken as literal.

And the literal dead bodies of the Two Witnesses do not lie in the literal streets of Jerusalem, which here is called Sodom and Egypt. Sodom and Egypt refers to the collective which claims they are Christians but are in false doctrines. The Two Witnesses are not two literal guys or two groups of people, and they are "killed" spiritually by the false prophets - not mentioned in this chapter, but are found elsewhere in scripture. The second beast of Revelation 13 represents the many false prophets of Matthew 24: 11 and II Peter 2: 1-3.

chrysostom
August 25th, 2014, 06:39 AM
I do like the idea of the olive trees in the earth or state provide the oil for the lampstand which provides the light as the church should do
and
the two best examples of the church and state working together
are
the byzantine empire
and
the holy roman empire

genuineoriginal
August 25th, 2014, 05:55 PM
Deuteronomy 19:15
15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

The two witnesses are sent to see and testify about someone's sin.

chrysostom
August 26th, 2014, 06:34 AM
Deuteronomy 19:15
15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

The two witnesses are sent to see and testify about someone's sin.

that doesn't explain the two olive trees like zechariah 4 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Zechariah+4&version=KJV) does

genuineoriginal
August 26th, 2014, 07:22 AM
that doesn't explain the two olive trees like zechariah 4 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Zechariah+4&version=KJV) does

It does explain the two witnesses like Genesis 19 does.

chrysostom
August 26th, 2014, 07:35 AM
It does explain the two witnesses like Genesis 19 does.

I think you are supposed to focus on the olive trees that supply the oil for the lamps

northwye
August 26th, 2014, 09:44 AM
"These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth." Revelation 11: 4

This is a reference to Zechariah 4: 2-3

"And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
3. And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof." Zechariah 4: 2-3

Ezra 3: 3 and 3: 8 explain that Jeshua and Zerubbabel were important in the rebuilding of the Wall and Temple at Jerusalem.
"Then stood up Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and his brethren the priests, and Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and his brethren, and builded the altar of the God of Israel, to offer burnt offerings thereon, as it is written in the law of Moses the man of God." Ezra 3: 3

"Now in the second year of their coming unto the house of God at Jerusalem, in the second month, began Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and the remnant of their brethren the priests and the Levites, and all they that were come out of the captivity unto Jerusalem; and appointed the Levites, from twenty years old and upward, to set forward the work of the house of the LORD." Ezra 3: 8

The first part of Revelation 11 is a kind of very short history of the Body of Christ. Jeshua and Zerubbabel, the two leaders in the rebuilding of Jerusalem, represent the restoration of Israel and its transformation in Christ - who can be seen metaphorically as olive trees, and the oil of grace as the truth.

"And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified............And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them."

Even John Gill (1697-1771) in his commentary on Revelation 11 did not believe the Two Witnesses were literally two men. He says "And I will give power unto my two witnesses,.... By whom are meant, not Enoch and Elias, as some of the ancient fathers thought...........but these witnesses intend the ministers of the Gospel and churches of Christ, who have bore testimony for Christ, and against antichrist, ever since he appeared in the world; "

I would have to add that the Two Witnesses not only represent the ministers of the Gospel but also all the elect of Christ who are viewed in this chapter.

Nor did John Gill, writing before Christian Zionism began in the 19th century, think that the beast who comes up out of the bottomless pit literally kills the Two Witnesses. He says "And kill them; not corporeally, but civilly; for as their dead bodies lying three days and a half, that is, three years and a half, unburied, and their resurrection from the dead, and ascension to heaven, cannot be understood literally............they will be silenced; they will be banished, or removed into corners."

The Two Witnesses, representing, as Gill says, many ministers of the Gospel of Christ, are "killed" by the beast who comes up out of the bottomless pit. Gill says this beast is the "Romish antichrist," but he is the same entity seen in Revelation 9: 1-2, 11, the angel of the bottomless pit, a fallen angel or demon, called Abaddon and Apollyon. Since fallen angels do not run around literally killing people, this is a clue that the killing is metaphor. The beast or angel of the bottomless pit inspires the huge number of false prophets seen in Matthew 24: 11 and II Peter 2: 1-3 to "kill" the spiritual life in the Two Witnesses.

The Two Witnesses, after they are spiritually "killed" by the false prophets inspired by the beast of the bottomless pit are given spiritual life by the Spirit of God in Revelation 11: 11.

chrysostom
August 26th, 2014, 10:55 AM
Gill says this beast is the "Romish antichrist,"

many think that
and
that is why I am presenting a reasonable alternative to that way of thinking

Eleutherius
August 26th, 2014, 11:41 AM
Revelation must be interpreted from the four principles set out in verse one of chapter one. These are: 1) Chapter one opens with the title of the transcript: A Revelation of Jesus Christ;
2) The revealed author is God -- this revelation is of divine origin -- which is noted by the clause: “which God gave unto Him”.
3) The object of the transcript was to reveal historical events which were “ready” to occur – with speed – in terms of the operation of the plan and purposes of God concerning Christ and His church of the First Century A.D. (cf Luke 21:22);
4) they were signified or expressed with symbols [the Greek word is “ἐσήμανεν”, esemanen, signified (third person, singular, aorist, indicative, active) and denoting factual, past completed action], i.e., the transcript is a completed allegory.

Consider, the book is "signified or expressed with symbolic language: it is not literal.

The Old Testament is the lexicon for symbolic interpretation.


The Two Witnesses: Rev. 11...

John was given a reed: a measuring device of a predetermined length. He was commanded to measure the temple, the altar, and those who worshipped in it (in judgment). Judgment had come in terms of the Old Order. The outer court had been exempt from the order to “measure”. The outer court had been reserved for those who were excluded from temple worship: the Gentiles. Moreover, they would trample the holy city for forty-two months.
Power had been given to the two (signifying agreement) witnesses (the faithful from under both covenants) of Christ (vs. 3). Their ministry was prophetic, i.e., “The testimony of Jesus Christ is the Spirit of prophecy (Revelation 19:10).” They prophesied 1260 days or – forty-two months. They wore sackcloth, because they grieved for the souls of them who were apostate or spiritually lost.

They were also known as “the two olive trees (signifying the Holy Spirit) and the two lamp stands (signifying the church) which stood before the God of the earth (vs. 4).” They were two and two: four represents their function in the – earth. The result was healing and salvation. The words “healing” and “salvation”, are the same word form, Lt., salve & salvus, respectively; and, the Greek equivalent is “σώζω”, sozo (root word). Salvation is in respect to the whole person: physical and spiritual.

Near to the time of the Day of the Lord, the church proper experienced increased persecution: “when they shall have completed their testimony, the beast who comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and will overcome them, and will kill them:” et cetera. Remember, these events are still under the sixth trumpet; and, Satan’s little season is still in force. He tormented those who were deceived by him, and he assaulted those who were of the elect of Jesus Christ. The assault upon the church culminated at the center of the world’s predominant religious order: the natural Jerusalem, where our Lord also died (vs. 8). This was the last prophecy to be fulfilled. As a result of the silencing of the church, which was for a short time [3.5 days (, perhaps, a day for a year/an incomplete operation)], the Land (Jerusalem) rejoiced, because they thought that they were free from the Gospel message which commands men everywhere to repent from their sins and turn to the living God (Acts 17:30). Following, the resurrection of the dead occurred to the demise of Isra’el, and the church was caught up into heaven (preserved). A great earthquake occurred (vs. 13): destruction once again came to Jerusalem with many people [7000 (7 x 103: perfect and complete holocaust) names of men] dying there; those who survived gave untimely glory to God.

chrysostom
August 26th, 2014, 12:19 PM
They were also known as “the two olive trees (signifying the Holy Spirit) and the two lamp stands (signifying the church)

you are right about the lamp signifying the church
but
wrong about the two olive trees

they represent the state in the form of zerubbabel according to zechariah 4 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Zechariah%204&version=KJV)

Eleutherius
August 26th, 2014, 12:55 PM
Chrysostom, RE: Zechariah 4:5 & 6,

"Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but BY MY SPIRIT, saith the Lord of hosts."

Is not the message concerning the Spirit of the Lord (the Agent)?

False Prophet
August 26th, 2014, 01:52 PM
Romans 11 describes the two olive branches as the Jewish witness and the Gentile witness.
A common identification of the two witnesses are Elijah and Enoch.

Eleutherius
August 26th, 2014, 02:26 PM
False Prophet, is that not conjecture?

chrysostom
August 26th, 2014, 05:38 PM
Chrysostom, RE: Zechariah 4:5 & 6,

"Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but BY MY SPIRIT, saith the Lord of hosts."

Is not the message concerning the Spirit of the Lord (the Agent)?

you can credit the Holy Spirit for just about everything
but
normally She has to work with real people
and
it may be useful to identify them

Eleutherius
August 26th, 2014, 07:35 PM
"She", Crysostom? Since when does spirit have gender? However, this is getting off of the point.

chrysostom
August 26th, 2014, 08:39 PM
"She", Crysostom? Since when does spirit have gender? However, this is getting off of the point.

this is not new

others have considered the Holy Spirit the feminine person of the Trinity

Eleutherius
August 27th, 2014, 03:32 PM
Give evidence of the fact, please.

genuineoriginal
August 27th, 2014, 05:30 PM
Give evidence of the fact, please.

There is a writeup of why some people consider the Holy Spirit to be a female here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_of_the_Holy_Spirit#Female_attribution)

_________
In Hebrew the word for Spirit (רוה) (ruach) is feminine, (as is the word "shekhinah", which is used in the Hebrew Bible to indicate the presence of God,
. . .
In the Syriac language too, the grammatically feminine word ruah means "spirit", and writers in that language, both orthodox and Gnostic, used maternal images when speaking of the Holy Spirit.
. . .
While scholars generally agree that grammatical gender is not necessarily correlative to personal gender, Eastern Orthodox theologian Susan Ashbrook Harvey considers the grammatical gender to have been significant for early Syriac Christianity: "It seems clear that for the Syrians, the cue from grammar—ruah as a feminine noun—was not entirely gratuitous. There was real meaning in calling the Spirit 'She'."
_________

chrysostom
August 27th, 2014, 07:37 PM
There is a writeup of why some people consider the Holy Spirit to be a female here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_of_the_Holy_Spirit#Female_attribution)

_________
In Hebrew the word for Spirit (רוה) (ruach) is feminine, (as is the word "shekhinah", which is used in the Hebrew Bible to indicate the presence of God,
. . .
In the Syriac language too, the grammatically feminine word ruah means "spirit", and writers in that language, both orthodox and Gnostic, used maternal images when speaking of the Holy Spirit.
. . .
While scholars generally agree that grammatical gender is not necessarily correlative to personal gender, Eastern Orthodox theologian Susan Ashbrook Harvey considers the grammatical gender to have been significant for early Syriac Christianity: "It seems clear that for the Syrians, the cue from grammar—ruah as a feminine noun—was not entirely gratuitous. There was real meaning in calling the Spirit 'She'."
_________

thank you, thank you very much

I just love it when others do the work for me

chrysostom
September 20th, 2014, 04:06 AM
you find zechariah 4
if
you search the bible for the two olive trees (https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=the+two+olive+trees&qs_version=KJV)
and
there you find zerubbabel
and
you will find he is always associated with joshua
if
you google zerubbabel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zerubbabel)

zerubbabel is the governor
joshua is the high priest

together they return to jerusalem to build the second temple

zerubbabel is the state
joshua is the church

together they are the two witnesses in the form of

the byzantine empire
and
the holy roman empire

together they help build the Church that replaces the temple

Twim
September 23rd, 2014, 08:07 PM
What if the biblical translation was misinterpreted and that there is only one true witness instead?

chrysostom
October 6th, 2014, 02:28 AM
What if the biblical translation was misinterpreted and that there is only one true witness instead?

that is why we don't rely on just one passage

that is why we rely on our common sense

chrysostom
October 23rd, 2014, 03:51 AM
The Two Harbingers of the End Times,[16] who elucidates how it is possible, based on the grammatical interpretation of the text, that the two witnesses be represented by just one person who would be a Jewish Pope, since the text requires that the "two" witnesses have one common i.e. shared mouth, and one shared body, and therefore "they" have to be a single person. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_witnesses)

or a church and state that are joined together like in the byzantine empire

CherubRam
October 23rd, 2014, 04:00 AM
"She", Crysostom? Since when does spirit have gender? However, this is getting off of the point.
According to Catholicism the Holy Spirit is a she. Just a note: Language gendering is from Paganism.

CherubRam
October 23rd, 2014, 04:02 AM
The Two Harbingers of the End Times,[16] who elucidates how it is possible, based on the grammatical interpretation of the text, that the two witnesses be represented by just one person who would be a Jewish Pope, since the text requires that the "two" witnesses have one common i.e. shared mouth, and one shared body, and therefore "they" have to be a single person. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_witnesses)

or a church and state that are joined together like in the byzantine empire
:rotfl:

JPHamilton
October 23rd, 2014, 05:24 AM
you find zechariah 4

if

you search the bible for the two olive trees (https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=the+two+olive+trees&qs_version=KJV)

and

there you find zerubbabel

and

you will find he is always associated with joshua

if

you google zerubbabel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zerubbabel)



zerubbabel is the governor

joshua is the high priest



together they return to jerusalem to build the second temple



zerubbabel is the state

joshua is the church



together they are the two witnesses in the form of



the byzantine empire

and

the holy roman empire



together they help build the Church that replaces the temple


How can it be said that those two empires will die and their bodies will lie in the streets of Jerusalem for 3 1/2 days? Honest inquiry here.

chrysostom
October 23rd, 2014, 05:31 AM
How can it be said that those two empires will die and their bodies will lie in the streets of Jerusalem for 3 1/2 days? Honest inquiry here.

I don't know
and
I am still looking for a better understanding of this
but
I will continue to pursue the church and state theory as the best one

JPHamilton
October 23rd, 2014, 06:03 AM
I've heard of the church/Israel opinion, but not what you presented. I personally view the two witnesses as two literal men who will prophesy for the final 3 1/2 years prior to the second coming. In my understanding, satan empowers his two minions: the antichrist and false prophet, and God empowers His two witnesses.

chrysostom
October 23rd, 2014, 06:14 AM
I've heard of the church/Israel opinion, but not what you presented. I personally view the two witnesses as two literal men who will prophesy for the final 3 1/2 years prior to the second coming. In my understanding, satan empowers his two minions: the antichrist and false prophet, and God empowers His two witnesses.

looks like you are putting everything into the future
and
that is just too easy to do

I will continue to look at history
and
I believe most of this stuff is there

JPHamilton
October 23rd, 2014, 06:18 AM
looks like you are putting everything into the future

and

that is just too easy to do



I will continue to look at history

and

I believe most of this stuff is there


Interesting. I was having a similar conversation with my dad a few days ago.

How do you deal with the resurrection of the two witnesses? Also, since you believe that this has all happened in the past, do you believe that the 7th trumpet has already sounded?

Sorry about the 21 questions.

Spitfire
October 23rd, 2014, 06:20 AM
Just a note: Language gendering is from Paganism.You're getting closer to realizing that pretty much everything can be considered "pagan" according to your standards.

chrysostom
October 23rd, 2014, 06:33 AM
Interesting. I was having a similar conversation with my dad a few days ago.

How do you deal with the resurrection of the two witnesses? Also, since you believe that this has all happened in the past, do you believe that the 7th trumpet has already sounded?

Sorry about the 21 questions.

I think it has something to do with the
kingdom of jerusalem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Jerusalem)
and
the byzantine empire
and
the holy roman empire

Truster
October 23rd, 2014, 08:55 AM
The two witnesses are not two literal men they are the testimonies of the Prophets and the Apostles which are put to death by the world and the apostasy. They are also the two lamps and the two branches.

The Apostasy are the 41,000 denominations who have worshipped creeds and traditions above and beyond what is written. Robert Pate is an example of this as he feels reading the Bible is a waste of time.

beloved57
October 23rd, 2014, 09:43 AM
The Two Witnesses is the Testimony of the Church in both Testaments !

chrysostom
November 11th, 2014, 05:14 AM
it is a lampstand
and
not a candlestick
this is important because the lampstand uses oil from the olive tree
they work together
one is the state
and
the other is the church
the two witnesses

chrysostom
May 30th, 2015, 02:27 PM
not many have understood this

chrysostom
June 5th, 2015, 10:04 AM
the two witnesses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_witnesses)

just search the bible for two olive trees
and
you will find zechariah 4 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Zechariah+4&version=KJV) and zerubbabel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zerubbabel) who is always associated with joshua (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_the_High_Priest)

joshua is a priest representing the church
zerubbabel is minister of the state

the two witnesses are the church and state
we have two christian empires

the holy roman empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire)
and
the byzantine empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire)

the place is jerusalem
and
control of it ended in 1244 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_%281244%29)

it looks like the holy roman empire to me

back to
the apocalypse (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102616)

the two witnesses
are
the church and state

genuineoriginal
June 5th, 2015, 11:12 AM
the two witnesses
are
the church and state

Deuteronomy 19:15-19
15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
16 If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him that which is wrong;
17 Then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before the Lord, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days;
18 And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother;
19 Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you.
What is the punishment for the two witnesses if they testify falsely?

chrysostom
June 5th, 2015, 11:20 AM
What is the punishment for the two witnesses if they testify falsely?

there are 167 references to witness in the bible (https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=witness&qs_version=KJV)

maybe the other words are more significant

genuineoriginal
June 5th, 2015, 09:14 PM
there are 167 references to witness in the bible (https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=witness&qs_version=KJV)

maybe the other words are more significant

There are only 8 references to two witnesses.

northwye
June 6th, 2015, 07:46 PM
There is usually a clue, though sometimes subtle, indicating that a text is in the language of metaphor, and its deep layer of meaning is not literal. In Revelation 11: 7 the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit makes war against the two witnesses and kills them. Scripture must be interpreted by relevant scripture, following Isaiah 28: 10. In Revelation 9: 1-3 the bottomless pit is opened and in Revelation 9: 11 the locust-scorpions that come out of the pit have a king over them, Abaddon, or Apollyon. This is the beast that is said in Revelation 11: 7 to kill the two witnesses. But this beast is a supernatural being, a fallen angel. Fallen angels are interested in killing man's spirit from God, and they themselves are not seen in scripture taking physical form and literally killing people physically. This indicates Revelation 11 on the Two Witnesses is heavily metaphoric.

The statement in Revelation 11: 8 that the dead bodies of the two witnesses are to lie in the street of that great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified is in no way literal. Its an interesting metaphor. That great city could be seen in Galatians 4: 25, Jerusalem which is below and is in bondage with her children. But its not Jerusalem of the Old Covenant; its a "Jerusalem" in the New Covenant timeline, in which Jesus Christ does not dwell.

Then, in Revelation 11: 11 the Spirit of God enters into the two witnesses, who were killed by the beast or angel out of the bottomless pit. They come to live spiritually. Making them two literal men or groups of people or institutions of men deprives Revelation 11 of its message, and knowledge is rejected, as in Hosea 4: 6, "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee..."

CherubRam
June 7th, 2015, 04:58 AM
the two witnesses
are
the church and state

:doh: How did you reason that the Two Witnesses are the church and state?

chrysostom
June 7th, 2015, 05:05 AM
the two witnesses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_witnesses)

just search the bible for two olive trees
and
you will find zechariah 4 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Zechariah+4&version=KJV) and zerubbabel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zerubbabel) who is always associated with joshua (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_the_High_Priest)

joshua is a priest representing the church
zerubbabel is minister of the state

the two witnesses are the church and state
we have two christian empires

the holy roman empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire)
and
the byzantine empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire)

the place is jerusalem
and
control of it ended in 1244 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_%281244%29)

it looks like the holy roman empire to me

back to
the apocalypse (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102616)


:doh: How did you reason that the Two Witnesses are the church and state?

the opening post comes to you
since
you can't go to it

daqq
June 7th, 2015, 05:32 AM
There is usually a clue, though sometimes subtle, indicating that a text is in the language of metaphor, and its deep layer of meaning is not literal. In Revelation 11: 7 the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit makes war against the two witnesses and kills them. Scripture must be interpreted by relevant scripture, following Isaiah 28: 10. In Revelation 9: 1-3 the bottomless pit is opened and in Revelation 9: 11 the locust-scorpions that come out of the pit have a king over them, Abaddon, or Apollyon. This is the beast that is said in Revelation 11: 7 to kill the two witnesses. But this beast is a supernatural being, a fallen angel. Fallen angels are interested in killing man's spirit from God, and they themselves are not seen in scripture taking physical form and literally killing people physically. This indicates Revelation 11 on the Two Witnesses is heavily metaphoric.

The statement in Revelation 11: 8 that the dead bodies of the two witnesses are to lie in the street of that great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified is in no way literal. Its an interesting metaphor. That great city could be seen in Galatians 4: 25, Jerusalem which is below and is in bondage with her children. But its not Jerusalem of the Old Covenant; its a "Jerusalem" in the New Covenant timeline, in which Jesus Christ does not dwell.

Then, in Revelation 11: 11 the Spirit of God enters into the two witnesses, who were killed by the beast or angel out of the bottomless pit. They come to live spiritually. Making them two literal men or groups of people or institutions of men deprives Revelation 11 of its message, and knowledge is rejected, as in Hosea 4: 6, "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee..."

There are four anthropon-man-face countenances just as there are four generations to the first age of every man in Messiah, like the four seasons in a full year; autumn, winter, spring, and the summer of your harvest. Two of the countenance-faces must breathe out his last, for so it is written, "Strike the Shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, (for the man is the land) says YHWH, that two parts therein shall be cut off and breathe his last: but the third part shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on My Name, and I will hear them. I will say, It is my people, and they shall say, YHWH is my Elohim." So the four faces commence with a fourth part given over unto Thanatos, (Revelation 6) then the third part, (Revelation 9) then there be two, (2 Corinthians 12:1-4, Revelation 11). Perhaps then if these things have not yet come to pass in your walk, (each in his or her own appointed times and none shall be alone in his appointed times) then when you get down to just the two in your Garden-Paradise, one day of those days you will hear the words, "Anabatehode!", (one of you to the third heaven and one to the Paradise) even as Paul learned it from the Revelation of Yeshua, (11). And this is either with Torah or without; for when the nations not having the law do by nature the things of the law, those not having the law are unto themselves a law, who show forth the work of the law written in their hearts: the inner law jointly witnessing-testifying together with their own conscience unto themselves, and between one another the resulting thoughts Accusing them, (being their own Accuser) or even making a defense in The Day when Elohim shall judge the secrets of men according to the good message I have received through the Revelation of Messiah Yeshua. No one outsmarts the Great Psychologist who makes us all, (and He makes us twain, like Esau and Jacob, from the one selfsame lump of clay: one a vessel of spirit appointed unto destruction and the other a vessel of spirit appointed unto honor).

northwye
June 7th, 2015, 06:51 AM
Is there one more commonly used Catholic "hermeneutic " used for interpreting Bible prophecy, among some other methods of interpretation. One system of prophecy interpretation supposedly used by the Catholics is called amillennialism.

Origen made use of broad allegory in interpreting Scripture, and
Augustine followed his lead, saying the thousand year reign of Christ
in Revelation 20: 1-8 is an allegory of all the church age. Catholics
and traditional Calvinists do the same and also say the 144,000 of
Revelation 7 and 14 are merely the saved people of the entire church
age.

In Augustine's interpretation of metaphors, visions, and symbols in the
Book of Revelation an event that is predicted to happen in the future
is made into a broad sweeping timeless allegory. In the Amillennial
view the sealing by the Lord of the 144,000 right before the "four
winds" are allowed to blow (Revelation 7: 1) is made to represent all
the saved people of all ages. So for Augustine,and Calvin following him,
followers the 144,000 can have no function
during the period Christ called the great tribulation in Matthew 24:
21. In fact, in strict Amillennialism, there is to be no period of
the tribulation. In Revelation 7: 1 the "four winds of the earth"
represent the tribulation period.

When over-allegorizing is applied to end time Bible prophecy,
making it into broad timeless teachings, the more specific metaphors, for example, in the Book of Revelation, are lost. In Revelation
there are many specific metaphors, such as the serpents and lucust-scorpions of Chapter 9. For example, for Origen the seven heads of the dragon of Revelation 17: 7 became the seven deadly sins.

Dispensationalism reacted against this more abstract kind of over-allegorization of the Catholics and of many Calvinists too. dispensationalism starts from the postulate that the Bible
must be interpreted literally and each verse given a meaning
consistent with plain
language. Dispensationalism avoids or tries to diminish metaphoric interpretations, and avoids "spiritualizing" a prophecy.

The site http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/es...william-e-cox/

says "Dispensationalists boast of literal interpretation of
Scripture, and cast aspersions at those who spiritualize some
passages of the Bible. Charles C. Ryrie, President of The Philadelphia
College of the Bible, says: (Bibliotheca Sacra, Vol. 114, July, 1957,
p. 254), only dispensationalism provides the key to consistent
literalism."

How would Catholic amillennialism deal with the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11? Would it not disregard the future orientation of this prophecy in the Book of Revelation and make the Two Witnesses into more timeless entities?

And - is not saying that the two witnesses are the church and the state a kind of "literal" interpretation of the heavily metaphoric language in Revelation 11?

The Two who witness, from the Greek word martusin, from martus, or the two martyrs, are also metaphoric for something. The surface meaning might be that they are killed because of their faith, but is that really what is going on, since Revelation 11: 7 says the beast from the bottomless pit, a fallen angel, is to kill them (spiritually)?

Starting an interpretation of Revelation 11 from the idea that the two witnesses are something literal, like two guys, or two man-made institutions, the church and the state, leads to understandings that reject the knowledge provided in the metaphoric language.

Instead, start from Revelation 11: 7-10, on the killing of the two witnesses and that their dead bodies are to lie in the street of that Jerusalem of Galatians 4: 25, spiritually called Sodom and Egypt, and people are to rejoice over them.

Then go on to Revelation 11: 11-12 where the Spirit of God enters the two witnesses and they are made alive spiritually. But for dispensationalism this is "spiritualizing" the text. Saying the two witnesses are the church and the state, - a Catholic interpretation - might also reject this "spiitualizing" of the text and prefer the more literal view.

jamie
June 7th, 2015, 08:54 AM
you can credit the Holy Spirit for just about everything but normally She has to work with real people...


She?

Are you worshiping the moon goddess?

chrysostom
June 7th, 2015, 09:08 AM
saying the thousand year reign of Christ.

where does it say

reign of Christ

CherubRam
June 7th, 2015, 09:17 AM
She?

Are you worshiping the moon goddess?

They have done lost it. I feel like I am talking to lunatics.

northwye
June 7th, 2015, 12:02 PM
"And I saw seats, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God: which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had taken his mark upon their foreheads, or on their hands: and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Revelation 20: 4 Tyndale New Testament, 1526

"And I saw seats; and they sat upon them; and judgment was given unto them; and the souls of them that were beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and who had not adored the beast nor his image, nor received his character on their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. " Revelation 20: 4 Douay-Rheims

What is the beast that Revelation 20: 4 says those who reign with Christ had not worshiped the image of nor had taken his mark? Again, scripture interprets scripture according to Isaiah 28: 10, and scripture should not be interpreted by a tradition of men, Catholicism or dispensationalism.

"And he did all that the first beast could do in his presence, and he caused the earth, and them which dwell therein, to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed." Revelation 13: 13

"He" is the second beast of Revelation 13, usually called the False Prophet, but not one man; he represents the many false prophets of Matthew 24: 11. The beast whose deadly wound was healed is in Revelation 13: 3, "And I saw one of his heads as it were slain to death: and his death's wound was healed. And all the earth was in admiration after the beast"

As is often true in the Book of Revelation what opens up the identity of the first beast is subtle. " And the beast which I saw, was like a cat of the mountain, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his seat, and great authority:" Revelation 13: 2 The leopard (cat), the bear and the lion empires are found in Daniel 7. The fourth beast empire there, very powerful and strong, is not listed in Revelation 13: 2. Associated with the four beast empires in Daniel 7 is the Little Horn of Daniel 7: 8, which follows in sequence the four beast empires of Daniel 7:4-7.

And yet again the clue which identifies the beast empires of Daniel 7 as being after the Cross is in Daniel 7: 12, "As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time." Remember that in history before the Cross the Persian empire replaced the Babylonian empire, the Greek empire replaced the Persian empire and the Roman empire replaced the Greek empire.

But in the timeline after the cross the four empires seen in Daniel 7 - and the Little Horn - do not replace one another. The Russian bear empire - the Old Soviet Union - did not replace the British empire, nor did the Nazi German leopard empire replace the Russian bear. The fourth empire, dreadful, terrible and strong, the U.S. as the national security state did not replace these three previous empires. And when the British empire rose after the defeat of the Spanish Armada, it did not replace the Spanish empire, but the Spanish empire continued though it was not dominant any more.

The beast that those who reign with Christ, whether metaphoric or literal, did not worship or take the mark of is the Little Horn of Daniel 7: 8, which appears along with the four post Cross empires there. It has the spirit of anti-Christ, but is not a man; its a country.

chrysostom
June 7th, 2015, 12:06 PM
where does it say

reign of Christ

answer the question

chrysostom
September 30th, 2015, 03:44 AM
no answer

genuineoriginal
September 30th, 2015, 08:21 AM
where does it say

reign of Christ


Revelation 19:15
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Hawkins
September 30th, 2015, 09:29 AM
They are the 2 series of prophets symbolized by Moses (*LAW) and Elijah who appeared in the mountain with Jesus. In NT, it is Paul (*LAW) and John the Baptist.

chrysostom
October 17th, 2015, 04:38 AM
where does it say

reign of Christ

it doesn't say reign of Christ

OCTOBER23
October 17th, 2015, 06:50 AM
MOSES AND ELIJAH = WITNESSES HERALDING THE COMING OF THE BRIDEGROOM

DURING THE LAST 3 1/2 YEARS.

Starting in 2021 - 2024 AD

Sept. 23, 2017 + 3 1/2 years = Circa March 2021 AD

chrysostom
November 5th, 2015, 02:56 PM
the two witnesses
are
the church and state of the byzantine empire

SaulToPaul
November 5th, 2015, 02:57 PM
the two witnesses
are
the church and state of the byzantine empire

:chuckle:

CherubRam
November 5th, 2015, 04:48 PM
it doesn't say reign of Christ

Revelation 20:4
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

chrysostom
November 5th, 2015, 04:55 PM
Revelation 20:4
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

are you with Christ?

CherubRam
November 5th, 2015, 05:08 PM
are you with Christ?

The first resurrection has not come yet.

chrysostom
November 5th, 2015, 05:45 PM
are you with Christ?


The first resurrection has not come yet.

what if you gather with another in His name

are you then with Christ?

CherubRam
November 5th, 2015, 07:09 PM
what if you gather with another in His name

are you then with Christ?

If there is unity, then yes. Unity would include correct doctrine. Anyway the subject is about the THOUSAND YEAR REIGN.

chrysostom
November 5th, 2015, 07:16 PM
If there is unity, then yes. Unity would include correct doctrine. Anyway the subject is about the THOUSAND YEAR REIGN.

let's say there was unity
so
you would be reigning with Christ
if
you happened to be reigning

CherubRam
November 6th, 2015, 11:01 AM
let's say there was unity
so
you would be reigning with Christ
if
you happened to be reigning

The thousand year reign is time specific.

chrysostom
November 6th, 2015, 11:03 AM
The thousand year reign is time specific.

yes

a thousand years is a lot of time

chrysostom
November 19th, 2015, 10:43 AM
the two witnesses
are
church and state

SaulToPaul
November 19th, 2015, 10:52 AM
the two witnesses
are
church and state

:chuckle:

daqq
November 19th, 2015, 04:05 PM
If there is unity, then yes. Unity would include correct doctrine. Anyway the subject is about the THOUSAND YEAR REIGN.


let's say there was unity
so
you would be reigning with Christ
if
you happened to be reigning


The thousand year reign is time specific.


yes

a thousand years is a lot of time

Revelation 10:6 uses chronos which is not "delay" but merely implies a delay simply by the fact that chronos is an increment of time, (any increment of time implies a delay so just because such a statement is in Strong's Definition does not mean that chronos actually means "delay"). There is another word for delay related to chronos, (chronizo) which could have been used in the Rev 10:6 statement but was not:

Matthew 24:48 KJV
48. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth [GSN#5549 chronizo] his coming;

Revelation 10:6 KJV
6. And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time [GSN#5550 chronos] no longer:

A thousand-year period most definitely constitutes a chronos increment of time. How then can the seventh trumpet come before a thousand-year millennium, (as most prophecy teachers seem to believe and teach) if at the seventh trumpet chronos-time shall be no more?

northwye
November 19th, 2015, 06:48 PM
C. I. Scofield claimed that "Not one instance exists of a 'spiritual' or figurative fulfilment of prophecy... Jerusalem is always Jerusalem, Israel is always Israel, Zion is always Zion... Prophecies may never be spiritualised, but are always literal." C.I. Scofield, Scofield Bible Correspondence Course (Chicago, Moody Bible Institute), pp. 45-46.

Christian Zionists therefore tend to make the two witnesses - δυσιν μαρτυσιν - literal guys, often figures from the Old Testament.

One system of prophecy interpretation long used by the Catholics is called amillennialism.

Origen made use of broad allegory in interpreting Scripture, and
Augustine followed his lead, saying the thousand year reign of Christ
in Revelation 20: 1-8 is an allegory of all the church age. Catholics
and traditional Calvinists do the same and also say the 144,000 of
Revelation 7 and 14 are merely the saved people of the entire church
age.

Saying the δυσιν μαρτυσιν - two martyrs - are the church and the state could be an allegory, making the two witnesses something more of the earth than of the Spirit.

But scripture interprets scripture (Isaiah 28: 10).

Look at the uses of μαρτυσιν, martyrs or witnesses, in these scriptures: What do the witnesses witness to?

"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us," Hebrews 12: 1

"Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. I Timothy 5: 19

"John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me." John 1: 15 "Him" is Jesus Christ, the Truth.

"Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth." John 5: 33

"And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning." John 15: 27 Who are "Ye?" "Ye" are Christ's disciples who have been taught the Truth.

In Revelation 11: 4 the Two Witnesses are said to be two olive trees and two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. This is a reference to Zechariah 4: 3-6, 11-14. In Zechariah 4: 6 the two olive trees are "...the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel, saying, not by might, not by power, but by my Spirit, saith the Lord of Hosts."

The Truth comes by the Spirit, not by might or by human power. Then, in Zechariah 4: 14 the two candlesticks are said to be "...the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth."

The Two Witnesses in Revelation 11: 7-8 are said to be killed by the beast out of the bottomless pit and their bodies are said to lie in the street of the great city called Sodom and Egypt, where our Lord was crucified. This is in the language of metaphor. It is not literal, and is also not part of a broad sweeping allegory.

Then, in Revelation 11: 11 the Spirit of life from God entered into the Two Witnesses. They are anointed in the Truth, and witnesses to that Truth. The word λοιποι appears in Revelation 11: 13, which is translated as remnant in the King James Version, but as survivors in the New International Version. λοιπων, basically the same word as λοιποι is used in Revelation 12: 17, which again is translated as remnant in the King James Version, but as "rest" in the New International Version.

The Two Witnesses who are anointed in the Truth and witness to the Truth represent a remnant, similar to the remnant in Romans 11: 5 who came out of Old Covenant Israel to begin the New Covenant. Translating λοιπων as "rest" in the New International Version for Revelation 12: 17 argues against this interpretation. Could it be that the Church under Christian Zionism would oppose the interpretation of the Two Witnesses as being those anointed in the Truth who testify to that Truth?

northwye
November 20th, 2015, 07:57 AM
Tyndale New Testament of 1526 for Revelation 11: 13:

"And the same hour was there a great earthquake and the tenth part of the city fell and in the earth quake were slain names of men seven and the remnant were feared and gave glory to God of heaven.

Tyndale New Testament for Revelation 12: 17:

"And the dragon was wroth with the woman: and went and made war with the remnant of her seed which keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. And I stode on the see sonde.

1599 Geneva Bible for Revelation 11: 13: "And the same hour shall there be a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city shall fall, and in the earthquake shall be slain in number seven thousand: and the remnant were sore feared, and gave glory to God of heaven."

1599 Geneva Bible for Revelation 12: 17: "Then the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went and made war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

Luther's German Bible of 1545 for Revelation 11: 13: "Und zu derselben Stunde ward ein großes Erdbeben, und der zehnte Teil der Stadt fiel; und wurden getötet in dem Erdbeben siebentausend Namen der Menschen, und die andern erschraken und gaben Ehre dem Gott des Himmels."

OK, for Revelation 11: 13, Luther translates λοιποι as "die andern," the others in Revelation 11: 13

Luther's German Bible of 1545 for Revelation 12: 17: " Und der Drache ward zornig über das Weib und ging hin zu streiten mit den übrigen von ihrem Samen, die da Gottes Gebote halten und haben das Zeugnis Jesu Christi."

Luther translates λοιπων as übrigen, the remaining or the rest.

1899 Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible for Revelation 11: 13: "And at that hour there was made a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell: and there were slain in the earthquake names of men seven thousand: and the rest were cast into a fear, and gave glory to the God of heaven."

1899 Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible for Revelation 12: 17: "And the dragon was angry against the woman: and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

New King James Version for Revelation 11: 13: "In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven."

New King James Version for Revelation 12: 17: "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

The recent Bible versions generally avoid translating λοιποι as remnant in Revelation 11: 13 and Revelaion 12: 17. However, William Tyndale used remnant in both Revelation 11: 13 and Revelation 12: 17, followed by the Geneva Bible and the King James Version.

But the New International Version for Romans 11: 5 says "So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace." Remnant is from λειμμα, or leimma. See: http://biblehub.com/greek/3005.htm............................."Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
remnant. From leipo; a remainder -- remnant. see GREEK leipo."....................."NAS: time a remnant according, KJV: there is a remnant according, INT: present time a remnant according to election."

The Latin Vulgate of Jerome for Revelation 11: 13 says "et in illa hora factus est terraemotus magnus et decima pars civitatis cecidit et occisi sunt in terraemotu nomina hominum septem milia et reliqui in timore sunt missi et dederunt gloriam Deo caeli."

The Latin Vulgate for Revelation 12: 17 has "et iratus est draco in mulierem et abiit facere proelium *** reliquis de semine eius qui custodiunt mandata Dei et habent testimonium Iesu."

"reliquis de semine" means the rest of her seed, or the remains of her seed.

Reliqui in Latin means the rest or the remainder. Lets see what the Latin Vulate has for Romans 11; 5: "sic ergo et in hoc tempore reliquiae secundum electionem gratiae factae sunt."

The key Latin word above is "reliquiae," meaning relics or remains, like remains of the dead.

There is not the linguistic support in the Catholic tradition for the remnant as a smaller number remaining faithful to God when the larger multitude falls into disobedience and apostasy as there is in the Reformation from the Tyndale, Geneva Bible and King James Version.

And - the recent New Testament translations during the time when Christian Zionism has been influencing the church's theologies there is also not the linguistic support for the principle of the remnant, that God raises up a remnant to continue his plan of redemption when the multitude goes into false doctrines and practices.

I got the Latin Vulgate texts from: http://www.latinvulgate.com/lv/verse.aspx?t=1&b=6&c=11

chrysostom
December 8th, 2015, 06:10 AM
the two witnesses
are
the church and state
and
it is history

SaulToPaul
December 8th, 2015, 06:40 AM
the two witnesses
are
the church and state
and
it is history

:chuckle:

Truster
December 8th, 2015, 06:43 AM
the two witnesses
are
the church and state
and
it is history

Church, State and History = Three.

chrysostom
December 8th, 2015, 06:44 AM
Church, State and History = Three.

that doesn't make sense

SaulToPaul
December 8th, 2015, 06:46 AM
Church, State and History = Three.

His harebrained schemes are entertaining!

chrysostom
December 8th, 2015, 06:50 AM
the two witnesses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_witnesses)

just search the bible for two olive trees
and
you will find zechariah 4 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Zechariah+4&version=KJV) and zerubbabel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zerubbabel) who is always associated with joshua (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_the_High_Priest)

joshua is a priest representing the church
zerubbabel is minister of the state

the two witnesses are the church and state
we have two christian empires

the holy roman empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire)
and
the byzantine empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire)

the place is jerusalem
and
control of it ended in 1244 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_%281244%29)

it looks like the holy roman empire to me

back to
the apocalypse (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102616)

this is pretty good for a catholic

SaulToPaul
December 8th, 2015, 07:04 AM
this is pretty good for a catholic

Pretty good fiction!

chrysostom
December 30th, 2015, 05:26 AM
please don't delete

Daniel1769
December 30th, 2015, 06:15 PM
I think the witnesses are Enoch and Elijah. It seems as if the witnesses are great prophets. But it also said they will be killed. Enoch and Elijah were both great prophets who didn't die yet apparently. For these reasons, I think it is Enoch and Elijah. I don't know for sure, obviously, but this makes the most sense to me.

serpentdove
January 9th, 2016, 03:57 PM
you are right about the lamp signifying the church
but
wrong about the two olive trees

they represent the state in the form of zerubbabel according to zechariah 4 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Zechariah%204&version=KJV)
Your apostate church :olinger: (Re 17:1) works to undermine the coming two witnesses.
:bowser: :bowser:

serpentdove
January 9th, 2016, 04:09 PM
...[O]thers have considered the Holy Spirit the feminine person of the Trinity

:olinger: Your sun god, your moon god. :dizzy: Come out of her or share in her sins (Re 18:4).

:listen: You CathOlics :freak: aren't too good at spotting dirty hoes (Re 17:1). http://rationalia.com/z/Ratz%20Smilies%20Mk%203/index5_files/mousy.gif

serpentdove
January 10th, 2016, 02:09 PM
... the literal dead bodies of the Two Witnesses do not lie in the literal streets of Jerusalem...

They rise out of the Mount of Olives (Zech 14:4, Mt 21:1). more (http://vananne.com/serpentdove/Two%20Witnesses%202.htm)

chrysostom
February 1st, 2016, 04:41 AM
Come out of her

you don't know what you are talking about

chrysostom
February 23rd, 2016, 04:40 AM
I hate change

I am a conservative

alwight
February 23rd, 2016, 04:49 AM
I hate change

I am a conservativeThe apocalypse will be a bit tedious for you then? :think:

chrysostom
February 23rd, 2016, 05:01 AM
The apocalypse will be a bit tedious for you then? :think:

I don't think I will be here for it

chrysostom
March 21st, 2016, 05:11 AM
the church and state
-the two witnesses
-the byzantine empire
-a christian empire
-that
-lasted 1000 years
-the pieces fit

genuineoriginal
March 21st, 2016, 11:11 AM
chrysostom
the church and state
-the two witnesses
-the byzantine empire
-a christian empire
-that
-lasted 1000 years
-the pieces fit
You seem to have missed some of the characteristics of the witnesses:

Revelation 11:3
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Revelation 11:6-12
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

SaulToPaul
March 22nd, 2016, 10:58 AM
the church and state
-the two witnesses
-the byzantine empire
-a christian empire
-that
-lasted 1000 years
-the pieces fit

:chuckle:

SaulToPaul
March 22nd, 2016, 11:21 AM
You seem to have missed some of the characteristics of the witnesses:

Revelation 11:3
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Revelation 11:6-12
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

:up:

Only in Chrys' harebrained schemes can he leave out important items and still say "the pieces fit".

genuineoriginal
March 22nd, 2016, 11:39 AM
:up:

Only in Chrys' harebrained schemes can he leave out important items and still say "the pieces fit".

I would have to say that every person trying to interpret Bible prophecy leaves out important things that don't fit their ideas.
That is how we ended up with so many differing opinions about what the fulfillment of Bible prophecy will be.

KingdomRose
March 23rd, 2016, 06:04 AM
For information on the two witnesses and anything else you're wondering about, check out www.jw.org

chrysostom
April 1st, 2016, 02:43 AM
I would have to say that every person trying to interpret Bible prophecy leaves out important things that don't fit their ideas.

what important things have I left out?

genuineoriginal
April 1st, 2016, 12:36 PM
what important things have I left out?

These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Epoisses
April 1st, 2016, 03:07 PM
The two witnesses are end-time saints or prophets who will be given supernatural power from God. The antichrist will be performing miracles, signs and lying wonders so it is only fair that two of God's servants will be given the same power like Moses and Elijah who were given supernatural powers in their day. The witnesses will also by antitypes of Zerubbabel and Joshua who were called by God to rebuild the 2nd temple. There will be lots of construction in the last days with the antichrist rebuilding Jerusalem and the temple to deceive the world. God thru the two witnesses will also be building a temple but it will be a spiritual temple made up of believers. The beginning of Rev. 11 even speaks to this measuring of the temple.

References to the sanctuary and temple are some of the most confusing in scripture because there were so many different applications. Moses built the sanctuary in the wilderness and the more permanent temple was built by Solomon and later rebuilt by Zerubabbel. There is a temple in heaven that is described in Hebrews and Revelation where Jesus ministers as our great high priest. God’s people are referred to individually as a spiritual temple and collectively as a holy city or royal priesthood. Context is the key to knowing what is being described. All three aspects of the temple will be represented in the last days.

chrysostom
April 26th, 2016, 04:11 AM
I would have to say that every person trying to interpret Bible prophecy leaves out important things that don't fit their ideas.
so you just put it in the future?

genuineoriginal
April 26th, 2016, 09:48 AM
so you just put it in the future?
Not quite.
I check the prophecies and identify the timeline for when they are supposed to happen.
If the timeline does not fit with history, I check to see if there are any conditions that would have caused the timeline for a particular prophecy to shift.

In the case of the two witnesses, it is clear that they are actual people, not empires (empires are called beasts in prophecy).
The two witnesses prophecy outside of the temple in Jerusalem (Revelation 11).

In order for this prophecy to be fulfilled, it either happened before the temple was destroyed in 70 CE or will happen after another temple is built in Jerusalem.
The writings of Josephus describe what happened in 70 CE, but make no mention of the two witnesses, so there is no verifiable historical fulfillment of this prophecy.

Therefore, the two witnesses will be seen sometime in the future after a temple is built in Jerusalem.

chrysostom
April 26th, 2016, 09:51 AM
so you just put it in the future?


Not quite................
Therefore, the two witnesses will be seen sometime in the future after a temple is built in Jerusalem.

you just put it in the future

genuineoriginal
April 26th, 2016, 11:27 AM
you just put it in the future

I did not put it into the future.
I recognized that the timing for the prophecy is in the future.
There is a difference.

chrysostom
May 30th, 2016, 08:17 AM
I did not put it into the future.
I recognized that the timing for the prophecy is in the future.
There is a difference.

your interpretation requires a future temple
the abomination is preventing it
it won't happen

Ben Masada
May 30th, 2016, 10:59 AM
The two witnesses are end-time saints or prophets who will be given supernatural power from God. The antichrist will be performing miracles, signs and lying wonders so it is only fair that two of God's servants will be given the same power like Moses and Elijah who were given supernatural powers in their day. The witnesses will also by antitypes of Zerubbabel and Joshua who were called by God to rebuild the 2nd temple. There will be lots of construction in the last days with the antichrist rebuilding Jerusalem and the temple to deceive the world. God thru the two witnesses will also be building a temple but it will be a spiritual temple made up of believers. The beginning of Rev. 11 even speaks to this measuring of the temple.

References to the sanctuary and temple are some of the most confusing in scripture because there were so many different applications. Moses built the sanctuary in the wilderness and the more permanent temple was built by Solomon and later rebuilt by Zerubabbel. There is a temple in heaven that is described in Hebrews and Revelation where Jesus ministers as our great high priest. God’s people are referred to individually as a spiritual temple and collectively as a holy city or royal priesthood. Context is the key to knowing what is being described. All three aspects of the temple will be represented in the last days.

The two witnesses is a reference to Israel and Judah still at the time when they existed as two kingdoms. I don't see it as a prophecy but as an analogy since the time when the Tribes split soon after the death of King Solomon and until about 601 when Israel was conquered by Assyria and taken into exile forever. That's when the Lord rejected Israel for good and confirmed the election of Judah to alone remain as the only people before the Lord forever. (Psalm 78;67-70)

SaulToPaul
May 31st, 2016, 06:13 AM
your interpretation requires a future temple
the abomination is preventing it
it won't happen

The abomination that makes desolate,
not the abomination that stands in the place that was made desolate much earlier.

keypurr
May 31st, 2016, 10:21 PM
the two witnesses
are
the church and state

No, I don't buy that.

I lean toward they are Christ and the Holy Spirit.

keypurr
June 1st, 2016, 10:55 PM
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

chrysostom
June 22nd, 2016, 04:50 AM
did you search your bible for two olive trees?

SaulToPaul
June 22nd, 2016, 06:48 AM
the two witnesses
are
the church and state

:chuckle:

chrysostom
July 14th, 2016, 01:30 AM
the two witnesses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_witnesses)

just search the bible for two olive trees
and
you will find zechariah 4 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Zechariah+4&version=KJV) and zerubbabel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zerubbabel) who is always associated with joshua (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_the_High_Priest)

joshua is a priest representing the church
zerubbabel is minister of the state

the two witnesses are the church and state
we have two christian empires

the holy roman empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire)
and
the byzantine empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire)

the place is jerusalem
and
control of it ended in 1244 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_%281244%29)

it looks like the holy roman empire to me

back to
the apocalypse (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102616)

just another piece of the puzzle
-you don't have to understand
-it's okay

beameup
July 14th, 2016, 01:39 AM
I think you will find the clue to their identity in Zechariah... and it's not the "usual suspects".

chrysostom
July 14th, 2016, 01:51 AM
I think you will find the clue to their identity in Zechariah...

that is where I found it

beameup
July 14th, 2016, 02:14 AM
that is where I found it

They are real people and are found in Zechariah, these two men will appear again.

chrysostom
July 14th, 2016, 02:16 AM
They are real people and are found in Zechariah.

that would make it history and not prophecy

beameup
July 14th, 2016, 02:48 AM
that would make it history and not prophecy

No, they will be back "in person" during the first-half of the 70th Week of Daniel.

SaulToPaul
July 14th, 2016, 06:50 AM
just another piece of the puzzle
-you don't have to understand
-it's okay

:chuckle:

SaulToPaul
July 14th, 2016, 07:02 AM
two men

:up:

Yes, two men. Not hard to understand, but hard for some (like Chrys) to believe.

chrysostom
August 4th, 2016, 04:45 AM
this was a tough one but I still believe it is church and state

SaulToPaul
August 4th, 2016, 05:55 AM
this was a tough one but I still believe it is church and state

:chuckle:

Ben Masada
August 5th, 2016, 02:42 PM
did you search your bible for two olive trees?

Yes, they are Israel and Judah. (Zechariah 4:3,11-14)

DavidK
August 5th, 2016, 02:59 PM
This question is for those who interpret the two as two individual people, no those who want to make them institutions.

Jesus said that John the Baptist fulfilled the return of Elijah. He came in the spirit of Elijah.

So why would the two witnesses need to be the literal Enoch and Elijah, or Moses and Elijah, or any returned hero of the faith, as it were?

daqq
August 5th, 2016, 03:17 PM
This question is for those who interpret the two as two individual people, no those who want to make them institutions.

Jesus said that John the Baptist fulfilled the return of Elijah. He came in the spirit of Elijah.

So why would the two witnesses need to be the literal Enoch and Elijah, or Moses and Elijah, or any returned hero of the faith, as it were?

Yohanan was the half of the city and the half of the kingdom, that is, the priesthood, (which are nashiym and born of women), and Herod foolishly swears to it when he quotes Ahasuerus from the book of Esther just before Yohanan is beheaded. So they did to Eliyahu as they pleased; just as it is written of him in Daniel 9:26 and Zechariah 14:2, (the nashiym ravished, the houses rifled, and the half of the city into captivity, [the prison of Herod]). You are the light of the world: a city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. :)

chrysostom
September 20th, 2016, 10:09 AM
the two witnesses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_witnesses)

just search the bible for two olive trees
and
you will find zechariah 4 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Zechariah+4&version=KJV) and zerubbabel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zerubbabel) who is always associated with joshua (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_the_High_Priest)

joshua is a priest representing the church
zerubbabel is minister of the state

the two witnesses are the church and state
we have two christian empires

the holy roman empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire)
and
the byzantine empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire)

the place is jerusalem
and
control of it ended in 1244 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_%281244%29)

it looks like the holy roman empire to me

back to
the apocalypse (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102616)

religion and state

SaulToPaul
September 20th, 2016, 11:00 AM
religion and state

:chuckle:

chrysostom
September 28th, 2016, 09:37 AM
:chuckle:

good post

chrysostom
October 10th, 2016, 06:45 AM
church and state working together to promote christianity

Ben Masada
October 10th, 2016, 06:48 AM
church and state working together to promote christianity

Dangerous togetherness! Religions should always be separated from the State.

chrysostom
October 22nd, 2016, 03:09 AM
Dangerous togetherness! Religions should always be separated from the State.

of course
-but-
we are talking about history

chrysostom
October 28th, 2016, 09:23 AM
whatever your interpretation is -
it should be consistent with the rest of your interpretation -
it should fit -

chrysostom
November 7th, 2016, 10:24 AM
this is just one piece of the puzzle
-and-
you need many pieces to get the big picture

chrysostom
November 21st, 2016, 06:29 AM
I see few individuals identified in the apocalypse
-and-
they are very significant players
-like-
Jesus
Mohammed
Constantine
Marx
-
most are empires, nations, cities, dynasties

COGTHW
November 21st, 2016, 07:40 AM
the two witnesses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_witnesses)

just search the bible for two olive trees
and
you will find zechariah 4 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Zechariah+4&version=KJV) and zerubbabel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zerubbabel) who is always associated with joshua (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_the_High_Priest)

joshua is a priest representing the church
zerubbabel is minister of the state

the two witnesses are the church and state
we have two christian empires

the holy roman empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire)
and
the byzantine empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire)

the place is jerusalem
and
control of it ended in 1244 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_%281244%29)

it looks like the holy roman empire to me

back to
the apocalypse (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102616)

The two witnesses are not governments, but Elias who is Elijah and Moses.

The two witnesses
Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.


Who shut heaven.? Elijah
James 5:17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.

18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.

Who turned water into blood.? Moses. Who smite the earth with plagues by God power.? Moses

Exodus 4:9 And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe also these two signs, neither hearken unto thy voice, that thou shalt take of the water of the river, and pour it upon the dry land: and the water which thou takest out of the river shall become blood upon the dry land.

Exodus 3:20 And I will stretch out my hand, and smite Egypt with all my wonders which I will do in the midst thereof: and after that he will let you go.

the two witnesses are Elijah and Moses. They will return to preach and be prophets to the 144,000 Hebrew men. That is prohecy, not happening now.

chrysostom
December 5th, 2016, 06:27 AM
That is prohecy, not happening now.

how do you know it hasn't already happened?

COGTHW
December 5th, 2016, 06:50 AM
how do you know it hasn't already happened?

Because it didn't Revelation is the book of prophecy.

Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

chrysostom
December 13th, 2016, 05:46 AM
Because it didn't Revelation is the book of prophecy.

Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Blessed is he that watcheth

chrysostom
December 24th, 2016, 04:18 AM
thanks for watching

chrysostom
January 6th, 2017, 05:26 AM
church and state working together to make christianity a world religion

chrysostom
January 24th, 2017, 05:58 AM
the byzantine empire not only established christianity as a world religion
-
it protected christianity from the early expansion of islam
-
it mortally wounded the first beast and chained the second

SaulToPaul
January 24th, 2017, 07:49 AM
the byzantine empire not only established christianity as a world religion
-
it protected christianity from the early expansion of islam
-
it mortally wounded the first beast and chained the second

:chuckle:

CherubRam
January 24th, 2017, 11:13 AM
the byzantine empire not only established christianity as a world religion
-
it protected christianity from the early expansion of islam
-
it mortally wounded the first beast and chained the second
You have some strange ideas about things.

CherubRam
January 24th, 2017, 11:15 AM
religion and state
I have noticed that your comments are not based upon the bible or history.

SaulToPaul
January 24th, 2017, 11:16 AM
I have noticed that your comments are not based upon the bible or history.

Thou art wise.
Chrys promotes harebrained schemes only accomplished by ignoring many many Bible details.

CherubRam
January 24th, 2017, 11:19 AM
The two witnesses are not governments, but Elias who is Elijah and Moses.

The two witnesses
Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.


Who shut heaven.? Elijah
James 5:17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.

18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.

Who turned water into blood.? Moses. Who smite the earth with plagues by God power.? Moses

Exodus 4:9 And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe also these two signs, neither hearken unto thy voice, that thou shalt take of the water of the river, and pour it upon the dry land: and the water which thou takest out of the river shall become blood upon the dry land.

Exodus 3:20 And I will stretch out my hand, and smite Egypt with all my wonders which I will do in the midst thereof: and after that he will let you go.

the two witnesses are Elijah and Moses. They will return to preach and be prophets to the 144,000 Hebrew men. That is prohecy, not happening now.

Elijah and Moses will not be returning to die a second time.

chrysostom
February 25th, 2017, 06:31 AM
the two witnesses are the church and state working together to make the world safe for christianity
-and-
it is now history

WatchmanOnTheWall
February 25th, 2017, 07:05 AM
Malachi 4:5
"See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes.

The great and dreadful day is Jesus second coming.

Matthew 17:11
Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things.

Jesus said this after John the baptist was dead when the Transfiguration happened:

Matthew 17
3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

Christians are waiting for Elijah to restore all things just before Jesus returns. He is one of the Two Witnesses. They are God's two last Prophets who will warn the World of Jesus' imminent return but what will Elijah restore first I wonder?

MichaelCadry
February 25th, 2017, 07:11 AM
Dear Chrys,

You shouldn't be confusing others with your lies. You know NOTHING about the two witnesses and you make it up in your head and publish it here in your posts. How sickening!! See Revelation 11:3 KJV and the whole chapter!

The two witnesses are two people who shall stand before the God of the Earth! Says nothing about Churches. It says these two witnesses shall prophesy for 3 and 1/2 years clothed in sackcloth {mourning, not literal material}. They are the two olive trees and candlesticks standing before God. Churches don't prophesy.

And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt. Now what city could that be?? Maybe Phoenix, AZ?? It is in the desert with assorted palm trees and cacti, and sand, with a dry, high hot temps., etc. Just like being in Egypt. And it is like the valley of Megiddo, surrounded by mountains all around and such a valley that is below sea level, which makes it a hot place to be in. And this city oppresses the people, giving them low wages for the work they do, because it's nice and warm here in the winter, so that people want to stay here. While everyone up north is freezing, we are nice and warm here in this city.

See Ezek. 16:49. "Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom: pride, fullness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me; therefore I {God} took them away as I saw good." Nothing about gay people, specifically. The abominations could be gay people and could be people who eat pork or bacon. Probably both. They are both abominations. And they are haughty here, especially the ones with money. They live in Paradise Valley. Oh, the mansions that they have there would blow your mind!! They all are haughty and proud because of their warm winters. They laud it over on those who live in the freezing cold up north.

I got paid $14/hour in Michigan, and I got $7-$9/hour here in this damn city. And the city has many homeless people, and if it matters to you so much, yes, they have many gay people here. You don't know what Sodom was like! A very oppressed people, just like they oppressed the Hebrews long ago. Oh, the things that I could tell you.

Churches and states don't fit in these scriptures and anyone with a lick of a brain could figure this out for themselves. These two will share their testimony to many others, and then be killed by Satan, because he wants to shut their mouths up, so they don't speak so many truths about him, and screw things up for him for good. The devil has no power over you when you let God and Jesus take care of it all instead of trying to do it yourself.

The testimony they will share is the good news that Jesus is returning very soon. They also have a lot of other messages to give to people, so they can make sense of all of this and so they are ready to handle the times that come. Tribulation is almost over and you all don't even know that. Things are happening faster than you could blink your eyes at. Most all of the things the Lord God said He would do, He has done, and you all don't know that either. Oh, the things that I could tell you!

Now, Chrys, I hate to do this, but you are spreading bull about scriptures that you know nothing about. A church and state are not going to die in the street, have their bodies come back to life and raise up to heaven. You are just misinformed. No big deal, but get with the program. Now quit spreading lies. Watchman has the right idea quite well. I'm proud of him. Yes, one of the two witnesses will be like Elijah, for he shall turn the hearts of the fathers to the children and the children's hearts to their fathers. He will just have a different name.

Could God Be With You For A Change?!!

Michael

WatchmanOnTheWall
February 25th, 2017, 03:49 PM
Thanks Michael,
Yeah, Revelations says they are two prophets. In fact they could be alive today trying to tell us that Jesus is coming very soon? But most Christians would of cause be saying that they are wrong:) but I suppose that's what being a prophet is all about :)

S-word
February 25th, 2017, 04:03 PM
The two witnesses are not governments, but Elias who is Elijah and Moses.

The two witnesses
Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.


Who shut heaven.? Elijah
James 5:17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.

18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.

Who turned water into blood.? Moses. Who smite the earth with plagues by God power.? Moses

Exodus 4:9 And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe also these two signs, neither hearken unto thy voice, that thou shalt take of the water of the river, and pour it upon the dry land: and the water which thou takest out of the river shall become blood upon the dry land.

Exodus 3:20 And I will stretch out my hand, and smite Egypt with all my wonders which I will do in the midst thereof: and after that he will let you go.

the two witnesses are Elijah and Moses. They will return to preach and be prophets to the 144,000 Hebrew men. That is prohecy, not happening now.

And what makes you think that the 144,000 chosen ones are all Hebrew men?

SaulToPaul
February 25th, 2017, 04:04 PM
the two witnesses are the church and state working together to make the world safe for christianity
-and-
it is now history

:chuckle:

S-word
February 25th, 2017, 04:08 PM
And what makes you think that the 144,000 chosen ones are all Hebrew men?

Of the 13 tribes of Israel, why are the 144,000 chosen from only twelve.

WatchmanOnTheWall
February 26th, 2017, 02:11 PM
You are a Jew,everyone is a descendant of the Jews:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGhGk9LYuUE

MichaelCadry
February 27th, 2017, 05:21 AM
You are a Jew,everyone is a descendant of the Jews:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGhGk9LYuUE



Dear Watchman,

Hi!! I can't answer much today or tomorrow because I won't have the time I need to respond to some other important issues. But soon I will have more time. Will chat with you then. I'm pretty impressed with you, Watchman. You come up with some good stuff. But don't let it go to your head, because we both know, God would deem that unwise. Let us remain humble in our heart and head.

God's Best,

Michael

WatchmanOnTheWall
February 27th, 2017, 11:58 AM
Dear Watchman,

Hi!! I can't answer much today or tomorrow because I won't have the time I need to respond to some other important issues. But soon I will have more time. Will chat with you then. I'm pretty impressed with you, Watchman. You come up with some good stuff. But don't let it go to your head, because we both know, God would deem that unwise. Let us remain humble in our heart and head.

God's Best,

Michael

Too late Michael, I can't seem to get my hat on properly. :e4e:

chrysostom
March 28th, 2017, 06:33 AM
:chuckle:

thanks for watching

SaulToPaul
March 28th, 2017, 11:18 AM
thanks for watching

I love fiction.

chrysostom
April 29th, 2017, 04:46 AM
the two witnesses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_witnesses)

just search the bible for two olive trees
and
you will find zechariah 4 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Zechariah+4&version=KJV) and zerubbabel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zerubbabel) who is always associated with joshua (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_the_High_Priest)

joshua is a priest representing the church
zerubbabel is minister of the state

the two witnesses are the church and state
we have two christian empires

the holy roman empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire)
and
the byzantine empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire)

the place is jerusalem
and
control of it ended in 1244 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_%281244%29)

it looks like the holy roman empire to me

back to
the apocalypse (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102616)

church and state working together to make the world safe for christians

SaulToPaul
April 29th, 2017, 04:48 AM
church and state working together to make the world safe for christians

:chuckle:

chrysostom
May 31st, 2017, 03:20 AM
:chuckle:

thanks for watching

SaulToPaul
May 31st, 2017, 08:30 AM
thanks for watching

:e4e:

Fiction is entertaining.

chrysostom
July 6th, 2017, 05:39 AM
you need to look at history for the fulfillment of prophecy

SaulToPaul
July 6th, 2017, 05:48 AM
you need to look at history for the fulfillment of prophecy

:chuckle:

chrysostom
August 7th, 2017, 03:54 AM
:chuckle:

thanks for watching

chrysostom
August 29th, 2017, 03:50 AM
think big -
two people cannot make a big difference with the exception of Jesus and mohammed
-but-
church and state working together for over a thousand year period can